Inquiry about PC-98 love

[UTW]

I don't think a lot of people who like PC-98 characters actually prefer them over Windows ones. Maybe it just seems that way due to a vocal lot really clamoring for Mima or Shinki's return, but those are two of the very few in PC-98 who actually hold that sway with fans, who constantly come up in who they want to see return, are relatively popular, and receive a decent amount of doujin. But even in Japan I think there are very few who actually played the PC-98 games. You'd be hard pressed to find a lot of PC-98 supporters who actually played through them.

For the most part I think fans just want some of these seemingly cool, enigmatic characters back. And for those who are heavily invested in PC-98 I think part of it is seeing their interest justified and PC-98 acknowledged with a return to official canon.

Myself, it'd be interesting to see a return just because that I want to see how ZUN would handle it, what he might change, etc. I want to see them as they could be. Once you throw out Five Magic Stones, Orange, etc., I think you're actually left with a pretty wide array of interesting characters who could work in modern Touhou.

[CyberAngel]

On the subject of the original question, I think said question is fundamentally lacking is that it seems to assume people base how much they like characters mostly, if not only, on their actual characterization. There is plenty more to Touhou characters than who they are (as much as that's obviously an important thing to consider).

That said, OP's question seems to concern more why those who like PC-98 characters do so when they lack depth. This presumes they lack depth, or that people like 2hus in general for their depth, as Kilga pointed out.

It's a false assumption that PC-98 fans make the same connections between characters that you do, or that "general" statements apply to the individual case, which is the norm for PC-98 since there's little consistency between people's headcanons. I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but it seems as though you're questioning PC-98 fans why they like characters from that era while nay-saying every potential reason. And that...is silly!

That's the whole reason I'm asking the question, actually. I'm fully aware my understanding may be lacking, but I want to try to expand it. Obviously I can only judge by how or why I like characters myself. For the most part, my preferences are built upon character details I like. Of course, I understand that details alone don't make me like a character, they have to "click" with me just the right way, but still, details are the base for me to do that. That is why I'm cold to PC-98 characters - there just aren't enough details for me to latch on, and whatever there is was, in my opinion, fleshed out in Windows-era works better and just feels redundant as a result. However, I'm fully aware I may be missing something and people may have different reasons, so I want to at least understand them. I mean, I've already noted gameplay and creative freedom, xJeePx's nostalgia and Tengu's "orthodoxing" are valid (if incomprehensible to me in latter case) reasons as well. So if you can provide a better analysis, then by all means do so, I'm very interested. I mean, if you think I don't understand something, how do you expect me to understand it if you don't spell it out? Experience comes forth from  such moments, it can't appear out of thin air, you know.

To begin with, there's all sorts of reasons to differentiate them. For one thing, the different setting gives an entirely different potential relationship dynamic (serving a high class vampire is a little different from serving a goddess). Also, Yumeko's mannerisms (what little are shown anyway), danmaku, and theme are completely different from Sakuya's and suggest an entirely different sort of person. I developed a lot of my interpretations of PC-98 characters through the personality seen through their danmaku and themes, and from these alone Yumeko's similarities to Sakuya become little more than superficial.

This is the kind of discussion I expected out of this topic initially, and I'd love to pursue it, if you please. I have to say I disagree, since, while there are differences in obvious details, I get vibes of deep similarities from this case. First, their masters both can be called lords of demons. Devils, if you please. And I came to that conclusion in both cases independently. Second, I find Yumeko's personality to be extremely similar to how Sakuya is in EoSD. The Sakuya we have now may be how Yumeko would turn out if she went through as much character development. Lastly, remember how the background behind Yumeko becomes distorted at the start of her battle? I took that as a sign of space manipulation. So really, I have a strong feeling that everything Yumeko was simply evolved into Sakuya we have now.

For the most part I think fans just want some of these seemingly cool, enigmatic characters back. And for those who are heavily invested in PC-98 I think part of it is seeing their interest justified and PC-98 acknowledged with a return to official canon.

Myself, it'd be interesting to see a return just because that I want to see how ZUN would handle it, what he might change, etc. I want to see them as they could be. Once you throw out Five Magic Stones, Orange, etc., I think you're actually left with a pretty wide array of interesting characters who could work in modern Touhou.

I don't really feel like upsetting you, but I think something must be said here. As was pointed out earlier, ZUN's stance is pretty clear on this - he doesn't want to bring old characters, but he leaves old canon open to reinterpretation coupled with current one for those who want it. While the idea of how he would do it may be interesting, actually waiting for it to happen is fruitless. However, nothing stops you from trying to do that yourself, so your hopes may be better placed in how you can do that on your own. Besides, you seem to have your own ideas that may be different from what everyone else will like (throwing out characters? some "hardcore PC-98 fans" would have your head for that, I'm sure), so instead of wishing for something that may disappoint you if it differs from what you expect, you may be better advised to just do something you'd like yourself. (Relevant quote: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment".)

[Tengukami]

I'm not sure what you found incomprehensible about orthodoxing. I mean there's purists all around who stick to the original works of any medium or title. It's not nostalgia or hipsterism; it's just staking your flag on the earliest outputs. Thought this was a pretty common thing. I see it all through the PC-98 fanbase anyway

[UTW]

I don't really feel like upsetting you, but I think something must be said here. As was pointed out earlier, ZUN's stance is pretty clear on this - he doesn't want to bring old characters, but he leaves old canon open to reinterpretation coupled with current one for those who want it. While the idea of how he would do it may be interesting, actually waiting for it to happen is fruitless. However, nothing stops you from trying to do that yourself, so your hopes may be better placed in how you can do that on your own. Besides, you seem to have your own ideas that may be different from what everyone else will like (throwing out characters? some "hardcore PC-98 fans" would have your head for that, I'm sure), so instead of wishing for something that may disappoint you if it differs from what you expect, you may be better advised to just do something you'd like yourself. (Relevant quote: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment".)

There's been a miscommunication here. I know what he's said about it before. As much as I would like something else to happen with PC-98, I'm not actually waiting and holding out hope for him to do so and never said that I was. I'm long past that phase as a fan. Especially when he's already acknowledged enough about it for my taste in UFO. I really am much more interested in everything new that ZUN does than he could do by revisiting anything old. He's shown no interest in living in or revisiting much of the past, so neither do I or would ever expect him to.

[nintendonut888]

This is the kind of discussion I expected out of this topic initially, and I'd love to pursue it, if you please.

It's pretty clear you aren't actually interested in pursuing this topic, given how you've consistently brushed off every PC-98 fans' opinions rather than try and understand them. Especially given what you said just after this:

I have to say I disagree, since, while there are differences in obvious details, I get vibes of deep similarities from this case. First, their masters both can be called lords of demons. Devils, if you please. And I came to that conclusion in both cases independently. Second, I find Yumeko's personality to be extremely similar to how Sakuya is in EoSD. The Sakuya we have now may be how Yumeko would turn out if she went through as much character development. Lastly, remember how the background behind Yumeko becomes distorted at the start of her battle? I took that as a sign of space manipulation. So really, I have a strong feeling that everything Yumeko was simply evolved into Sakuya we have now.

So basically all of what I said amounted to something for you to "disprove." It's fine if you want to rely only on canon details, but wasn't the whole reason you made this thread to learn other people's perspectives? You're not going to get anywhere if all you do is say "I don't agree with that viewpoint," as though you're just contrasting other's viewpoints with your own. You're certainly not going to learn anything new like that, and as long as that's how you approach this thread I'm not sure others will be that interested in telling you more either.

[CyberAngel]

I'm not sure what you found incomprehensible about orthodoxing. I mean there's purists all around who stick to the original works of any medium or title. It's not nostalgia or hipsterism; it's just staking your flag on the earliest outputs. Thought this was a pretty common thing. I see it all through the PC-98 fanbase anyway

I just don't understand what kind of an appeal it might even have. Gameplay, nostalgia or creative freedom I can relate to. But liking first works for just being first? It's not an inherently positive or negative thing. Whether I like something or not does not depend on when it came out. The only reason I can think of is just as a hipsterism with a few details tweaked, but is it really like that or not? I can't comprehend it enough to tell.

It's pretty clear you aren't actually interested in pursuing this topic, given how you've consistently brushed off every PC-98 fans' opinions rather than try and understand them. Especially given what you said just after this:

So basically all of what I said amounted to something for you to "disprove." It's fine if you want to rely only on canon details, but wasn't the whole reason you made this thread to learn other people's perspectives? You're not going to get anywhere if all you do is say "I don't agree with that viewpoint," as though you're just contrasting other's viewpoints with your own. You're certainly not going to learn anything new like that, and as long as that's how you approach this thread I'm not sure others will be that interested in telling you more either.

What? No, no, you're misinterpreting me heavily. I'm not trying to disprove you or anything, I understand and respect your opinion. It's just that it's so different from mine that I want to know why can there be such big differences. So I just voiced how my opinion differs from yours, hoping that you might comment on what I think about her from your point of view, or maybe point out something I may be missing that prevents me from seeing things your way. Of course, if you can't or don't want to say anything, I don't force you. It's just that I've jumped in with a bit too much enthusiasm, so please don't take things more negatively than they really are.

[nintendonut888]

But see, you aren't approaching this topic with an open mind. If you actually want to learn anything about other people's views, you have to rely on more than simply what people tell you. You have to try and meet them halfway, actually THINK about what they are saying rather than internalizing their words alone. Even as you're asking for more information, you're talking about it as though you won't read any deeper into what I tell you than what I say (which is the reason you're asking for more information in the first place). You'll never understand other people's views like that, and the average person would lose patience long before any understanding would be reached. So I say if you really want to learn more about the views of the PC-98 fans you've seen up until now, you should go back and actually consider what they've said and think about it.

Kinda getting off topic I know, but it's a good skill to learn, and would make this thread a lot less of a headache for everyone involved.

[CyberAngel]

Or maybe it's you not willing to understand the one you talk with? Didn't I say I understood your opinion? I could tell where your ideas came from well enough without you spelling it out. Why do you think I won't read deeper into what you'll say? I only need it as something to use as a direction to understand things further, I can figure out the rest on my own. It seems your own advice isn't working for you, because you're assuming things about me that are just plain false. Text may be an imperfect information media, but at least it's reliable. I found that it's better to only trust what is spelled out rather than assuming something unspoken that you can't really guarantee to be true.

So please, let's keep talking on topic, I'm interested to hear what you can say.

[Tengukami]

I just don't understand what kind of an appeal it might even have. Gameplay, nostalgia or creative freedom I can relate to. But liking first works for just being first? It's not an inherently positive or negative thing. Whether I like something or not does not depend on when it came out.

OK, let me give you another example: people who adhere to the Orthodox Church. Because it's the oldest, closest to the original, and therefore the "best" church. Or people who say that the original purveyors of rock 'n' roll had all the talent - even if this is being said by someone who wasn't even born at this time.

It is in short believing the first incarnation of a thing is the best. It has nothing necessarily to do with nostalgia or hipsterism. If this is a completely alien concept to you I'm a more than a little surprised. But I've personally seen quite a bit of it among PC-98 fans.

[nintendonut888]

I found that it's better to only trust what is spelled out rather than assuming something unspoken that you can't really guarantee to be true.

It's good not to assume, but you have to at least try and reach out to other people's perspectives, and that involves making assumptions. People will be far more willing to correct your misreading of what they say than explain every last detail to you, because it'd show them that despite not getting it right, you are at least actively trying to see their perspective. Because let me tell you, it sure feels like the thread is almost an inquisition against being a PC-98 fan the way our opinions are being called into question whenever we give them. >_> Don't tell me that's not what you intended, because I know it isn't, but that's sure what it feels like, and it makes me a lot less willing to explain my views.

Anyway, getting off my soapbox and answering your question, it's what I said before. You can infer a lot of personality from a character simply through their theme. To continue using Yumeko as an example, I got the impression from Doll of Misery that she has a detached view of life, as though she sees herself - as the song suggests - like a doll who serves her employer, mother, and creator. The second half of the song evokes the feel of a cold, ruthless killer, which certainly is reflected by her fast, efficient, and utterly brutal danmaku (if you don't know, Yumeko is considered by many to be one of the hardest bosses in the series on lunatic).

From just those base assumptions, a more complex personality and story can be crafted for her. At that point it's more up to your own creativity and interest in the character, but if I were to explain it, it'd be that the scant canon details serve as a launching point to create your own character. The fact that there is not a large fanbase or established fanon means there is less to contradict the character as you see them, and they feel even more personal to you. That, to me at least, is why many of my favorites are PC-98 characters.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Now let me contribute to the topic a little. Back on the first page I said that most PC-98's are boring, except for a few exceptions. Those two are among them: Ellen and Rika.

Ellen:
Ellen because I think she is rather interesting overall. I mean, she seems to be as "dysfunctional" as Koishi or Seija, because her mind is comparable to a Tabula Rasa. She keeps losing her memories day by day and because of that, her mind is never able to grow mature so she always keeps a childish attitude.

As such, she is the type of person that can't hold a grudge against someone and would be a fun friend to have. But you'd need to keep in touch with her everyday, otherwise she'd forget about you. It sounds more or less like a sort of dementia, now that I think about it.

Rika:
I think of Rika as a sort of "Dr. Wily" from the Touhou series. I mean, she explicitly stated that she created all of the bakebake from the first stage of SoEW, and it's very likely that she created all of the machines surrounding that area too (the ying yang cannons, the midboss tank and those weird things that look like mechanical rats or whatever). Apparently she created them to dominate Reimu's Shrine or something, or even to conquer all of Gensokyo (we don't know for sure due to the lack of information). But either way, this is comparable to how Dr. Wily keeps creating machinery (mainly the Robot Masters) to beat Megaman and take over the world.

Rika also lured Reimu into a trap during the Extra Stage after getting defeated once. She possibly wanted to take revenge and prove that machines are superior to humans, and that they're more than enough to beat the heroine. It's unknown what her goals were with that, though.

I think she would do a great Windows character, but you might argue with me and say that she is nothing but a prototype for Nitori, since that the latter could do everything the former can. But I can prove otherwise, mainly due to a single reason that makes them different. Nitori seems to create machines with good intentions in order to help the technology from Gensokyo evolve and improve the others' lifestyle. Rika seems to be other way around, as in: she creates machines mainly to cause disorder and pursue domination with them.

Something else that puts the two characters apart is how Nitori not only creates machinery, but also has manipulation over water as a plus. Rika apparently has no fighting skills whatsoever and relies on machines entirely in order to fight. Nitori is also affiliated with the Kappa Society, while Rika seems to simply be on her own.

[Prime32]

While there are said to be some slight personality changes with Yuuka, what makes Alice's details different? If anything she's just grown up slightly.

PC-98 Alice was a demon with a playing card motif, who goes out of her way to fight at full strength, is younger-looking than the protagonists and was born in Makai. Windows Alice is a human-turned-magician with a doll motif, who never fights at full strength, is older-looking than the protagonists and is implied to have been born in Bucharest. They're almost nothing alike.

[CyberAngel]

Okay, I wanted to make a lot more emotional post, but I'm a bit better now so I'll spare you a lot of CAPS LOCK.

What is wrong with you, people? I made an inquiry topic. I planned to interview you here. You know, asking questions, holding a discussion, that kind of thing. But it seems that voicing an opinion that is different from yours is somehow an attack on your opinion around these parts. Or at least as long as it is something about PC-98 stuff. It came to that I'm afraid to say "hey, this PC-98 character is similar to a Windows character this way". Why are you afraid of such comparison? Is it such an armor-piercing fact? It's a cold fact, nothing more. Or maybe you don't like me asking stuff in your face? Well, sorry, this is an interview, I ask questions to get answers. Or give counterarguments to know your opinion on them, that's how discussions work. And comparisons to Windows characters are needed to better flesh out the uniqueness of PC-98 character - you know, the thing why you like this character and not a Windows-era similar one. And in case you missed it, I'm glad to acknowledge your help when I'm done with questions. I'm perfectly fine with you liking PC-98 stuff over Windows stuff, I just want to know the reasons better, hence questions and discussions. But people just assume that any doubt in their opinion is an attack on it.

Well, fine, sometimes my opinions may have been worded poorly, so my apologies to anyone insulted or upset by them. But it seems I approached this thing wrongly from the start. Again, my fault completely, even though I rushed to ask stuff before planning it properly out of sincere curiosity, though I guess sincerity doesn't shine through plain text. But now this thing is a useless mess I don't want to go on with. Well, I had an idea how to do something like this in a much better way for a long time, so MAYBE I'll do it when I feel like it again. But this topic would get in the way, so better to take care of that sooner than later:

Mods, please delete this topic.

[nintendonut888]

PC-98 Alice was a demon with a playing card motif, who goes out of her way to fight at full strength, is younger-looking than the protagonists and was born in Makai. Windows Alice is a human-turned-magician with a doll motif, who never fights at full strength, is older-looking than the protagonists and is implied to have been born in Bucharest. They're almost nothing alike.

Nothing in MS ever implied Alice was a demon; in fact, UFO stated that some people go to Makai to train their magical powers. Also, my personal theory is that Alice was traumatized after losing at full strength in MS extra and the subsequent humiliation each heroine visited on her (most notably, Mima forces Alice to become her maid), which is why she's afraid of displaying her full power in the Windows series.

Alright, maybe I should clean up my own mess. I wasn't out to get you or make you feel bad when I said the things I did. However, I wanted to let you know that the way you were approaching our answers and asking subsequent questions was not the best way to do so. There's a reason there's whole college courses devoted to how to construct interviews; it's pretty complicated, even on a casual level like a message board. Even though you're hosting the interview, you have to understand your own position as well as that of others, and a whole bunch of other things. A lot of people have derided PC-98 fans as people who "just want Mima back" or "are just posers," and it's something at least some of us feel when we're questioned on our preferences. That doesn't mean you can't ask, but you have to know the right way to ask to get the answers you want. I wanted to try and set that straight, but it seems I overstepped my bounds and for that, I'm sorry.

[Tengukami]

Guys, guys! There is no need to be upset. Can't we just all agree that Evil Eye Sigma is the best PC-98 character and move on from there?

[CyberAngel]

Don't worry, Donut, I'm fully aware this is my own fault, it would happen sooner or later with how uninformed and disorganized I did this. Well, even mistakes give something to learn. I sorta knew about the basic reasons that answer my question, but at least I got confirmation they're valid around here. Still, I plan to do something much more organized (and with me actually contributing in a non-antagonistic way), and this topic would be redundant, so I still kinda don't want to see it, but I'm be fine with just a lock.

[Tengukami]

I'm be fine with just a lock.

Are you sure? I don't think this thread is unsalvagable, and Synnae among others have brought up some interesting points that actually answer your question.

Sorry for my part in derailing, but I do like this topic's idea, so if you really want to lock, that's fine, but I think we could also just keep going.

[nintendonut888]

Yeah, I would be willing to keep going now that I've gotten all that out in the open (let's bury the hatchet on that whole debate) and could keep telling you more. We should keep going, if you want to. I mean, Yumeko is one of the PC-98 characters I don't really like, I could tell you a whole lot more about why I like some others.

[98digger]

I'm be fine with just a lock.

Yeah, how would I get my two cents in if you locked this thread?  :V

[Drake]

While there are said to be some slight personality changes with Yuuka, what makes Alice's details different? If anything she's just grown up slightly.

She's grown up, lives in a large house in the Forest rather than in Makai and any relation to Makai has been completely forgotten. Pretty much everything about her besides "she has a grimoire" has been changed, just as Yuuka has changed from sleepy mansion in a blood lake to flower lover living in a big garden.

Retconning is different from saying that they don't matter anymore. The fact is that they still exist and it annoys me when people act like they don't.

You see, this is one point where it's very arguable whether or not you can say a character "exists" anymore. Whether or not ZUN says they're still around, the exclusion of the characters from everything is far more telling. It shows that ZUN cannot, or doesn't care to, bring these characters back into modern Gensokyo. Saying that they're "somewhere" holds no meaning besides saying that he hasn't outright rejected their existence completely, and this is a reasonable stance to take. He isn't ever going to say that they don't exist. So the question turns to, what do you even mean by "exist"? Are they available for fans to create works with if they want? Can they mesh with other characters and settings if the author wants? Sure. Are they canonically present in modern Gensokyo? I would say a resounding no. There is no evidence of their existence, exactly as there's no evidence that any nobusuma (for example) exist in Gensokyo. They could, and for anyone who wants to include them in fanworks of Touhou, then they can go right ahead. But as is made extremely obvious from the manga in particular, ZUN doesn't normally abandon characters and will introduce them in various places almost obsessively. He can keep repeating that PC-98 characters "exist" every time he's asked, but that answer is empty. His expression that they would be difficult to bring back is more reflective of his actual thoughts. While you might not technically call this a retcon, it's the closest to one that ZUN will ever get.

In a way, a lot of characters don't matter anymore but that doesn't stop them being popular. I'll accept the fact that most will never return but at the same time I don't expect Rumia or Medicine to return either. Gensokyo is a very different place from even the 6th game but, in the leap from PC-98, there is a very sudden change in attitude towarda them and huge drop in popularity.

Refer to my previous wallposts about how this has little to do with the move from PC-98 itself.
Also, Rumia was present in OSP chapter 12 and more recently in HM as a background character. Medicine was also in HM.

A little mention, even if just by name, would improve a character's popularity greatly. If Mima was brought back as a stage 1 midboss, it would greatly increase her popularity. You don't need to destroy everything just to acknowlege a character's existance.

This is a good point to mention, since for many people (probably non-writers, really) this might seem like a natural and easy thing to do. Like, if Mima popped up in HM as a background character, then wow, suddenly she would just exist and everything would be peachy. ZUN, and I'd say most writers seriously invested in their work... don't work this way. Including a character somewhere just for the sake of it is fickle and doesn't make sense. Bringing in a character means that they have their place, that they are a piece of the pie that is Gensokyo and mesh with it. You have fans who make works of characters who are all connected together by some means, and the characters that are "unpopular" aren't showcased as much, and the works that they're in might be solo works. Now ZUN will go back and show these characters somewhere on purpose. But on the flip side, unlike various fans, ZUN isn't going to deliberately shove in something that he feels doesn't work well, and he's a lot more picky and solid about this than the fans are. When you say you don't need to destroy everything just to acknowledge a character's existence, you're sort of highlighting the problem: acknowledging the character's existence does interfere with things. While superficially it might be "easy", when you get down to it, it's really anything but easy.

hi this has nothing to do with the thread's main question anymore

[Kwak]

I think Tengukami's thread is a good example of what nintendonut was saying about interpreting PC-98 Touhou. Regardless of whether or not ZUN intended to have all this subtle development in the games or not, if you can find it, then for you it is there - so why not enjoy it?

[CyberAngel]

Well, it seems like some discussion can still go on here, so fine, let this topic be. It's just that I don't want to go on with it because it's basically me saying "hey, let's talk about your favourite PC-98 characters" and just leaving everything up to everyone else. The thing I'm planning is far more organized and goes over all characters, so it'll be easier to talk about such stuff. So I'd rather ask everyone to wait with the more detailed talk about characters until I make the thing. Besides, I DO need to brush up on what is known about them, so if I'm going to think about PC-98 stuff, I'd rather think in that project's direction.

but I'm be fine

Good God, did I really write this? Never post while on the verge of falling asleep.

[TresserT]

...just as Yuuka has changed from sleepy mansion in a blood lake to flower lover living in a big garden.

Yuuka hasn't really changed at all. She had a thing for flowers in mystic square, and it became really obvious in Kioh Gyoku. Her personality doesn't seem to have changed much. The only thing that's different is her living space.

She's grown up, lives in a large house in the Forest rather than in Makai and any relation to Makai has been completely forgotten. Pretty much everything about her besides "she has a grimoire" has been changed

The thing about Alice. It bothers me so much. Where does is it say Alice was born a human? The only place I can find that is in PMiSS. But Akyuu has been wrong in the past and has put speculation in her books. Furthermore, Alice's official profile in IaMP says she looks almost identical to a human so it's very much possible that Akyuu made a mistake. And if Akyuu is wrong about her race, what has changed between PC-98 and Windows besides age (which can be attributed to... aging) and residency? (That's not a rhetorical question. I don't think anything else has changed, but I don't know).

I totally agree with you in that ZUN's actions speak louder than his words. If he hasn't shown PC-98 characters by this point, not even in spinoffs or as background characters, it's better to treat them as if they don't exist in Windows canon. But on the other hand if ZUN intends to eventually bring back characters like Yuuka or Alice (debateably), pretending PC-98 doesn't exist is like pretending the EoSD-PoFV don't exist just because they aren't relevant to the current arc.

...ahem...

My opinion of a character is usually based more on fanon and my own headcanons than anything official. That being said, I just find PC-98 characters give me more to think about. Like "Why is Chiyuri a sailor? What is Elly supposed to be? Is that Louise's ghost or a random enemy?". They still have plenty of legitimate info on them, but there's more I can decide for myself. If I have a question about a windows character I can look it up most of the time,

[Drake]

Yuuka hasn't really changed at all. She had a thing for flowers in mystic square, and it became really obvious in Kioh Gyoku. Her personality doesn't seem to have changed much. The only thing that's different is her living space.

I'll take that point. I will note that by Kioh Gyoku, Yuuka is already closer to the Windows series than she is to her PC-98 representation, and I find it likely that ZUN has already thought about how Yuuka fits into Gensokyo as he started to seriously consider Touhou's direction. I also find Yuuka's abode changing, and the abandonment of Mugenkan and Elly etc, to be quite a significant change to her character overall, even if they are not literally her changing.

Where does is it say Alice was born a human? The only place I can find that is in PMiSS. But Akyuu has been wrong in the past and has put speculation in her books.

Such speculation is generally either stated to be her speculation, or are visibly wrong by blatantly contradicting other works. Akyuu being an unreliable narrator isn't enough reason to just abandon what's said; the whole point of PMiSS is to infodump, and if the information provided isn't shown to be incorrect on purpose, then we should take it as valid regardless. Anyways, PMiSS is quite specific on Alice's humanity. The book introduces the distinctions between a born Magician, a human turned Magician, and magician as occupation. It then not only goes to explain Alice is the type that became a Magician through training, but it specifies that Alice has only recently become a Magician. This is supported immediately by noting that Alice still acts as a human does despite not needing to, and this is noted again in IN when she gets sleepy. On top of that it explains that she's friendly and hospitable to humans (and doesn't attack them) because she used to be one herself. This is pretty clear-cut.

Furthermore, Alice's official profile in IaMP says she looks almost identical to a human so it's very much possible that Akyuu made a mistake. And if Akyuu is wrong about her race, what has changed between PC-98 and Windows besides age (which can be attributed to... aging) and residency? (That's not a rhetorical question. I don't think anything else has changed, but I don't know).

Most magicians are said to be very similar to humans. Patchouli is also said to look like a human. Really though, I don't like this trail of supposing that Akyuu is incorrect solely to follow this line of thought. The way I see it, that's starting with a conclusion, then trying to take what has already been established and picking at it until it fits that conclusion.

But on the other hand if ZUN intends to eventually bring back characters like Yuuka or Alice (debateably), pretending PC-98 doesn't exist is like pretending the EoSD-PoFV don't exist just because they aren't relevant to the current arc.

It's more than that, and I've already went into detail about this. They are really not equivalent at all.

[cuc]

Derail: Kioh Gyoku was developed and released in 2001, when ZUN had started to develop EoSD on his on. The names of her attacks are setting her up as a guest from Gensokyo, while in the PC-98 games, the stage of the story was never properly named, only known as "a land in the east" 東の国.

Level 1: Wind of Budding
Level 2: Land of Peach Blossom Spring
Level 3: Cherry Blossom of Hourai
Bomb: Gensokyo

Source:
http://toho-motoneta.net/index.php?%A4%BD%A4%CE%C2%BE%A5%B2%A1%BC%A5%E0#kiohgyoku

Note:
The Peach Blossom Spring is the ur-utopia story in East Asia culture.

[Tengukami]

I think Tengukami's thread

is in serious need of a reboot. Good lord I forgot all about that thing.

Also, PC-98 is the tree that falls in the forest where there is no one around to hear it.

[CyberAngel]

Small thing I forgot to take care of.

OK, let me give you another example: people who adhere to the Orthodox Church. Because it's the oldest, closest to the original, and therefore the "best" church. Or people who say that the original purveyors of rock 'n' roll had all the talent - even if this is being said by someone who wasn't even born at this time.

It is in short believing the first incarnation of a thing is the best. It has nothing necessarily to do with nostalgia or hipsterism. If this is a completely alien concept to you I'm a more than a little surprised. But I've personally seen quite a bit of it among PC-98 fans.

About the closest thing I have to that is a compulsion to play games/listen to music albums/whatever in a chronological order when I start exploring something for the first time. Quality and other factors usually take control of my preferences pretty fast, though.

[TresserT]

Such speculation is generally either stated to be her speculation, or are visibly wrong by blatantly contradicting other works.

Here you're starting with a conclusion, then using that conclusion to prove itself. You're assuming that PC-98 and Windows are not connected. If PC-98 and Windows aren't connected than Akyuu's statement doesn't contradict any other work, so we must assume she's correct, proving that PC-98 and Windiws are not connected. Do you see the problem? I recognize that I just did the same thing in stating Akyuu could be wrong, but you pointed that out to me.

Such speculation is generally either stated to be her speculation, or are visibly wrong by blatantly contradicting other works. Akyuu being an unreliable narrator isn't enough reason to just abandon what's said; the whole point of PMiSS is to infodump, and if the information provided isn't shown to be incorrect on purpose, then we should take it as valid regardless.

I don't mean to suggest that my explanation is the case just that it could be, and that it's more than just a random shot in the dark. The biggest arguement that I've seen against PC-98 and Windows being connected are that PC-98 characters have dissappeared and Alice is a contradiction. I'm just trying to say that it's possible that Alice is not contradictory and that some PC-98 characters have made reappearances.

[Kwak]

Here you're starting with a conclusion, then using that conclusion to prove itself. You're assuming that PC-98 and Windows are not connected. If PC-98 and Windows aren't connected than Akyuu's statement doesn't contradict any other work, so we must assume she's correct, proving that PC-98 and Windiws are not connected.

That conclusion, however, is consistent with what ZUN has said about the connection between their games and the canon.

There are a few contradictions in the story when putting the PC-98 and Windows games side by side, but I would take reference from the latest games to consider what is canon.

Thus, it's quite reasonable to assume that Akyuu is more "correct" than Mystic Square. Personally, I think PC-98 Alice is human so I don't see that big a discrepancy here, but Akyuu's unreliability really isn't a very strong argument.

[Tengukami]

That conclusion, however, is consistent with what ZUN has said about the connection between their games and the canon.
Akyuu's unreliability really isn't a very strong argument.

Yes and yes. Questioning Akyuu's credibility gets thrown around a lot, even though when she is playing fast and loose, it is screamingly obvious - whether in her own writing, or with easily verifiable evidence to the contrary, as Drake gave us the broad strokes on.

ZUN has also made it very clear that there is a canon break between PC-98 and Windows. Questioning this point, I think, is unfair to the PC-98 world itself, like it can't stand on its own merits as a whole separate Gensokyo universe, with all its still great cast of characters, settings and yes, even story. I think it's by itself an aspect of Touhou worth exploring, and don't think it's canon quality wrt Windows Touhou even matters.