Omerta - Town of Mafia (Game over Scum wins)

[Mitsuki]

I didn't think that was you agreeing with someone, but rather the opposite. Maybe you should try to clarify things better next time because what's obvious for you might not be obvious for other people.

Why did you say nothing about PX, then? He hadn't even posted.
Also, why did you vote Serela back then?

[Raikaria]

I call Raikaria out for doing literally nothing.

Hey man timezones and I wanted to not be the guy who kick-started everything with some crazy theory for once.

Although Mitsuki's 2nd latest post leaves me a little 0_o.

Don't much like CF7's reason against Schezo either. Right now there's two real options; actually quicklynch Sky_Paladin, which is an awful idea, or keep fooling around with semi-RVS while attempting to make something happen. I don't think Schezo has done anything wrong worth biting his head off over. Not yet at least.

[Bardiche]

Hey man timezones and I wanted to not be the guy who kick-started everything with some crazy theory for once.

"Hey man I don't want to be the guy who gets us out of RVS."

Right now there's two real options; actually quicklynch Sky_Paladin, which is an awful idea, or keep fooling around with semi-RVS while attempting to make something happen.

"We either do something that's a bad idea or stick around in RVS. "



Ladies and gentlemen:
1) Blatant admission that he doesn't want RVS to end. He says literally he does not want to kickstart things (crazy theories or no, kickstarting the game is good), and that the alternative to "fooling around with semi-RVS" is a terrible idea. Therefore, he considers fooling around in semi-RVS to be at least a better idea than lynching Sky_Paladin right now.
2) Presentation of a false dichotomy. There's a third, very real possibility: Don't fool around and hunt for the scums. People have been doing this. Votes have been going out and posts analyzed. RVS has been over and the time for tomfoolery is past.
3) His only content post before that is dissecting Sky_Paladin's post. Yawn. People've done that and you add nothing original to the flavour. If you want to "produce content", please comment on less covered areas.

##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria

Other noteworthy things imo:
- Sky_Paladin's case on me is, indeed, bullshit. However, for all that, I don't think he's the scummiest around because it took Genuine Effort to make that case.
- Serela is still scummy for OMGUS vote and then backpedaling on it. However, I consider it less worse than Raikaria's cavalier attitude. Serela being this helpful is scary however, mostly he's the one that needs the helpful advice.
- People need to vote more. :V

[O4rfish]

Dude, you voteparked me in the last game for my crazy theory.

[Bardiche]

Dude, you voteparked me in the last game for my crazy theory.

There's a difference between "crazy theory start off game and get out of RVS" and "crazy theory for the entiriety of D1".

[Raikaria]

Ladies and gentlemen:
1) Blatant admission that he doesn't want RVS to end. He says literally he does not want to kickstart things (crazy theories or no, kickstarting the game is good), and that the alternative to "fooling around with semi-RVS" is a terrible idea. Therefore, he considers fooling around in semi-RVS to be at least a better idea than lynching Sky_Paladin right now.
2) Presentation of a false dichotomy. There's a third, very real possibility: Don't fool around and hunt for the scums. People have been doing this. Votes have been going out and posts analyzed. RVS has been over and the time for tomfoolery is past.
3) His only content post before that is dissecting Sky_Paladin's post. Yawn. People've done that and you add nothing original to the flavour. If you want to "produce content", please comment on less covered areas.

##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria

1: Semi-RVS. By that I mean we throw things around to get somewhere. We're beat the Sky_Paladin Horse as much as we can until he returns to counter-argue. No, we should not immediately quicklynch someone D1. In fact doing so is a terrible idea, even more terrible than sticking in 'semi-RVS' where we may get some more leads and such. I don not want to push us out of RVS because there is a very nasty habit of the person who does this being the lynch victim. I'd like to survive past Day 1 to improve my latergame play thank you. Which as last game showed is pretty weak.

2: There isn't much 'scumhunting' that in my opinion could have been done on the matter of where we were. It felt pretty much like a dead end until Sky returned to address points. And perhaps something would happen which could spur a new line of scumhunting. Hell, my suggestion itself seems to have succeeded in this. Well done me and Bardiche.

3: Excuse me for discussing the only piece of relevant content at the time, even if other people have discussed it. Would you rather me ignore it? By the way, I commented on the Schezo v Mitsuki happenings just before your own post. I don't know if it cut yours or whatever, but that had not happened at the time of my first *content* post.

[Serela]

Schezo also commented on it among the same lines even if he didn't switch his vote, which is scummy but not as scummy as what PX did since he's commented on other things. Still, he voted Serela at random without giving reasoning for it at a time when he was supposed to do so, and he didn't vote whoever made that "great case" he mentioned, which would be the logical thing to do. He's scummy, but not as much as PX.

massive reading comprehension fail compounding on itself to become even worse

I'm not physically capable of understanding why you couldn't see that he was sheeping Bard's case on Serela. :C Since the comment of "great case" was followed by VOTING THE PERSON THE CASE WAS ON, it clearly wasn't sarcastic ;_; Becoming confused and going "The comment was sarcastic and he should vote the other person, but wait, he's voting serela for no reason, I don't get it?" makes no sense because the reason is right there. And then you call him scummy when you don't understand the post is ????

Although, anyway, this wouldn't make any more sense from scum, but I'm too much ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) to ignore and not comment on it

Tbh, i don't like Schezo's posts. Pretty much zero actual content. RVS vote, another RVS vote, and jump-vote on Serela.

Okay this is worse because this person didn't actually have a logic breakdown. "Oh no, Schezo did an RVS vote in RVS and then sheeped a case on Serela that's practically the only thing that actually happened yet". This is also ignoring the fact that Schezo's posts were not actually no-content? He also ignored the Actual Situations that have been starting to occur, which are important to comment on IMO even if you don't actually think the people involved are scum.

Debating whether to voteswap to SkyPal or CF7. I suppose I'll take the road less travelled by.
##Unvote ##Vote CF7

Since Bard actually cased Raikaria (who I'm swapping off) I guess I should respond to it. When Raikaria made a content!post the current reason of voting for handwaving the game became weaker :V Ignoring barely-out-of-RVS wasn't good but it wasn't the worst offense either. It wasn't exactly a strong content!post so they're still a "meh" read but :biggerfishtofry:. The rest of your reasons fall into "overpsychoanalysis that isn't actually indicative of alignment", which if I tried to explain in a different way, I guess would fall somewhere under the line of "Mafia would be easier if we were playing Spot The Asshole... err, Unhelpful, er I don't know what word to use at the end for this situation

cut by post I'm not reading yet

[Mitsuki]

Serela, CF7 said that Bard's vote was bad, so I don't think what Schezo meant was obvious just from that comment he did. Now I understand, thanks for the clarification.

Bardiche's Raikaria case doesn't seem like a case scum would make, even if I don't think Raikaria is particulary scummy for the reasons pointed out. Bardiche doesn't seem to be faking conviction. He's probably town.

Raikaria, do you have more thoughts on this game other than what you already said?

[Sky_Paladin]

I'm really tired but this is the first chance I've had to get to the thread since this morning.  As you can clearly see my post was a work-in-progress; I posted my conclusion and voted before I'd finished going through everything.  I didn't finish and I won't have time to now.  I figured I should post even an incomplete rough draft because it was better than nothing. 

Anyway, NNR. 

Checks Bardiche's vote on Serela with 'youdbestbejoking.gif'.  Why?  Despite my earlier misgivings, Bardiche's vote was quite reasonable. 

Vote for me for RVS voting Serela.  I feel like it's buddying, but everyone should feel free to jump in and tell me why I'm wrong. 

This needs a response, so I'll omnislash it up.

"wrong player, Skypal. You want the rat-friend."  I have no idea what you are talking about. 

"since he tends to step it up under 'pressure'" <-- Incorrect.  I go afk as this board's meta is to lynch active, contributing players.  You watched me do it successfully once as your scumbuddy and once as a serial killer :V

"Anyway as far as the post content, it's half and half I guess."  I guess my question is why you would vote for somebody who put in 'half an effort' over somebody who had put in 'no effort'.  To be fair, it was half an effort as I wasn't done   Anyway, you voted for me because and you want to keep the vote there because of meta.  If I'm wrong please correct me. 

Lastly he technically OMGUS voted CF7 here.

Oh one more thing. 

Zak, no.  Bad, bad kitty.  I already said it was an RVS joke vote. 

At work I thought about what I had read and changed my mind and wanted to vote for NNR.  I'm really tired and can't capacitate the Raikaria situation right now, so ##vote NekoNekoRex.  Now I'll admit it's more gut than logic at this stage so when I've had some sleep I'll reread Raikaria. 

The main thing I have against Raikaria was I think I read something like, he just wanted to sit on his hands and not do anything until I came back and posted something.  Why do you need to wait for me to do anything? 

Next thing;
It seems like every game one of Raikaria, Serela, or myself are put up for lynch on day 1.  We should form some kind of, I don't know, team 9 meta team and start kicking those lazy snipe bastards that post a one liner with ##vote player that somehow always get wagons going. 

Dammit it's 2 am and I'm up at 6. 

[Sky_Paladin]

Actually I changed my mind. 

Raikaria says;

"I don not want to push us out of RVS because there is a very nasty habit of the person who does this being the lynch victim." 

Hey isn't the very first post after you made the 'lets not get out of RVS' post, the one I made saying 'lets get out of RVS?'  And then didn't you vote for me?  Isn't that...a little bit hypocritical!  Extra irony points because you already accused me of being hypocritical this game. 

"It felt pretty much like a dead end until Sky returned to address points"  No, that's ridiculous.  You can't just park your vote on a player and then refuse to consider any other case until that player comes back to defend themselves. 

This in addition to Bardiche's quality argument I am happy to vote. 

##unvote
##vote Raikaria

[Cheez8]

Don't much like CF7's reason against Schezo either. Right now there's two real options; actually quicklynch Sky_Paladin, which is an awful idea, or keep fooling around with semi-RVS while attempting to make something happen. I don't think Schezo has done anything wrong worth biting his head off over. Not yet at least.

Before I continue reading the rest of what happened overnight: No. Our options are "discuss things and notice other players that look like scum or town" and nothing else reasonable. What is the thought of a Paladin quicklynch even doing in your head?

Also, before I get distracted and forget, Schezo has been pretty unhelpful so far. He's written, like, two sentences detailing his opinions so far (not including being disappointed in Raikaria.) The cases against him that go beyond "he hasn't said much" are bad though, because that's really as much of a case as there is to make against him.

Reading further, thank you Bard for being sensible about that Raikaria post before me. Seriously. Raikaria's response isn't instilling confidence either though. Let's see:

1: Semi-RVS. By that I mean we throw things around to get somewhere. We're beat the Sky_Paladin Horse as much as we can until he returns to counter-argue. No, we should not immediately quicklynch someone D1. In fact doing so is a terrible idea, even more terrible than sticking in 'semi-RVS' where we may get some more leads and such. I don not want to push us out of RVS because there is a very nasty habit of the person who does this being the lynch victim. I'd like to survive past Day 1 to improve my latergame play thank you. Which as last game showed is pretty weak.

That's all well and good, but even then, 1) we were already out of RVS for a while, 2) you pushed us out of RVS last game very safely and even basically established yourself as town in the process (at least to me), and 3) why do you keep returning to quicklynching? Nobody has even come remotely close to suggesting a Paladin quicklynch would be good, or even possible. The closest I can find is a single mention by Zakeri that he would support a quickwagon on a Not Voting player (speaking of which, scum points for Zak~)

2: There isn't much 'scumhunting' that in my opinion could have been done on the matter of where we were. It felt pretty much like a dead end until Sky returned to address points. And perhaps something would happen which could spur a new line of scumhunting. Hell, my suggestion itself seems to have succeeded in this. Well done me and Bardiche.

3: Excuse me for discussing the only piece of relevant content at the time, even if other people have discussed it. Would you rather me ignore it? By the way, I commented on the Schezo v Mitsuki happenings just before your own post. I don't know if it cut yours or whatever, but that had not happened at the time of my first *content* post.

Stop pretending Paladin's big post was the only post worth reading at that point. Many people have formed opinions of people based on smaller, earlier posts, and it was not impossible for you to do the same.

Sky cut me but I'll read that later today. For now, Raikaria not even trying to read most people leaves a worse impression on me than NNR.

##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria

[Serela]

Hey isn't the very first post after you made the 'lets not get out of RVS' post, the one I made saying 'lets get out of RVS?'  And then didn't you vote for me?  Isn't that...a little bit hypocritical!  Extra irony points because you already accused me of being hypocritical this game.

r u srs

"It felt pretty much like a dead end until Sky returned to address points"  No, that's ridiculous.  You can't just park your vote on a player and then refuse to consider any other case until that player comes back to defend themselves. 

more valid, albiet there really was little else going on at the time iirc

...okay there are actually some better reasons for voting raikaria around than I realized

Might need to reorganize my priorities a bit, but I have to do some IRL stuff for a bit and then have work later, so it'll be delayed some

[Bardiche]

Sky_Paladin are you going to explain what inspired your vote on me? There have been comments on it and just brushing them aside won't cut it! It was a major misrepresentation of events.

I don not want to push us out of RVS because there is a very nasty habit of the person who does this being the lynch victim.

I expect Townies to play based on "I want to lynch the scums", and Scum/ITPs to play based on "I don't want to be the lynch victim". Happy with my vote's present location. I disagree that only Sky_Paladin's content was worth posting about at the time, there's plenty of stuff going; Even if you find SP's post the only worthwhile thing to comment on, commenting it while basically regurgitating other people's arguments looks suspect in the face of "I am actively trying to avoid being the lynch victim".

[Bardiche]

For anyone who doesn't have a degree in Bardology, commenting on one particular post regurgitating basically everyone's arguments is suspect because it's an act that a right proper Townie would do: You'd comment on something big that's happening. It's suspicious when combined with blatant admission of just doing shit to avoid being the lynch, since it makes me think it wasn't genuinely wanting to get to the bottom of something but just "participating" in the discussion.

[Shadoweh]

Votecount by the river

ActionDan (1): ActionDan,
Sky_Paladin (4): Raikaria, NekoNekoRex, Zakeri, Oarfish
PX (1): Mitsuki
Serela (1):  Schezo
Raikaria (4): PX, Bardiche, Sky Paladin, Cheez
Schezo (1) CF7
CF7 (1): Serela

Not voting: No one \o/

With 13 mooks kicking, it takes 7 to lynch.
There are 47 hours remaining.
Day 1 Timer

[Serela]

wait that was skypaladin just then and not cf7

It's like I'm drunk ;_; I'm going to go back to what I'm doing and reread this later

[Mitsuki]

Lastly he technically OMGUS voted CF7 here.

How is that an OMGUS when the vote CF7 made was RVS? I think it's scummy that this is part of a case, and not just logic I disagree with.

Paladin's reasons to switch to Raikaria are weak and read as oportunistic as well, since Raikaria's the other main wagon and NNR doesn't have votes. It feels like he's switching so as to avoid his lynch.

Paladin >/= PX, probably, it's hard to compare since the reasons why they're scummy are quite different. I'm not switching since there's already enough pressure on Paladin and no pressure at all on PX when he totally has to get here and post something.

[O4rfish]

##Vote: PX

[PX]

You know Raikaria,  you're still not voting or looking for scum, so how about you get started now?

[Schezo]

Skypaladin that post just made you the most town guy in the game.  ya know?  I gotta give it to you here, I was pretty iffy because I was voting you but that changed my mind.  You're super town not enjoy no more suspension. 
*throws dart*
##Vote: PX

Seriously what is this?

[Schezo]

goddam remove not suspension is suspicion

[PX]

Also, your points on Sky Palladium are terrible since you basically disregard the fact that he can view a post differently and try to throw his words in a different light to make it look like you have an actual reason.

IS THIS GOOD ENOUGH SHADOWEH?! Day 1 sux like Dux

[O4rfish]

I have never played with PX before. Is he usually this lazy?

Schzetczzo: yeah, pretty much. Voting Sky Paladin pressured him into making some decent posts. I can only hope my vote on PX contributes to something as good.

[PX]

@Mitsuki
First off, your post looks like you read the game and couldn't come up with anything. Raikaria's post basically looked like "The game started? K cya later"
As for opportunistic,  of course it is. You have to lower your standards and vote anything that moves in Early Day 1, otherwise the game wouldn't go anywhere unless someone really scum slips

[Mitsuki]

PX, would you say that my vote on you was scummy?

[PX]

Not particularly at the moment

[Raikaria]

I expect Townies to play based on "I want to lynch the scums", and Scum/ITPs to play based on "I don't want to be the lynch victim".

You know, there are plenty of town roles that do not want to be lynched. That is horrible and flawed logic. Especially during Day 1, where town power roles which have the potential to find scum certainly would not want to be lynched.

[Raikaria]

You know Raikaria,  you're still not voting or looking for scum, so how about you get started now?

I am voting Sky_Paladin, actually. And give me a chance, I'm not at my PC 24/7. I warned you guys before the game even started that my activity would be lower this game.

[Mitsuki]

PX, what do you think of people other than Raikaria?

[Raikaria]

Raikaria, do you have more thoughts on this game other than what you already said?

Other than previously stated? Well, I'm not particularly liking Bard for his logic that 'only scum would want to live', as that is also a stance which a town PR such as a Cop/Doc/Watcher/ect/ect would take. Bard's convenient omitting of that is not good. This is thoughts prior to me actually having time to actually think about things. Which is happening below.

For anyone who doesn't have a degree in Bardology, commenting on one particular post regurgitating basically everyone's arguments is suspect because it's an act that a right proper Townie would do: You'd comment on something big that's happening. It's suspicious when combined with blatant admission of just doing shit to avoid being the lynch, since it makes me think it wasn't genuinely wanting to get to the bottom of something but just "participating" in the discussion.

So... you're voting me for doing something that a townie would do? And then suggesting we actually talk about other things as well and not tunnel because it's D1 and who knows where that would lead us? I like to respond to ED1 wagons with 'hey guys we're not quicklynching right now'. I do this every game.

OK. So you've conveniently forgetting a Town PR would want to live, and voting me for doing something you even admit is town?

Forget my prior vote. Bard's case is awful and dosen't hold up. Especially c ombined with him accusing me of only talking about Sky_Paladin when literally the post before his I commented on Schezo and Mitsuki.

"It felt pretty much like a dead end until Sky returned to address points"  No, that's ridiculous.  You can't just park your vote on a player and then refuse to consider any other case until that player comes back to defend themselves. 

I direct you to me commenting on Schezo v Mitsuki at the top of this page. I hardly refused to consider any other case. That post proves this statement false. There WAS no other case for me to consider besides yours, which there was no point argueing about more until you returned, Mistuki/Schezo's goings-on which I'd just commented on, and my own case, which I was in the process of refuting.

Cheez, I quickly 'established' myself as town through a counter-claim, which cannot be trusted in this setup. In most games I start discussion, become heavily involved, and someone heavily involved gets lynched. Together with my lack of free time this game compared to usual, and me wanting to actually get later in the game so I can improve my later play, I want to take a bit of a backsteat D1 for once, especially as this seems like the prime tactic for getting out of Day 1.

And I'm always curious of quicklynches ED1. Look at pretty much every game. It's paranoia.

Well, since you all seem to be begging for my reads and such:

PX: Uh... he's not actually doing anything. People want to call me out for not contributing? What about PX?

Bardiche: Part 1 of his case on me is cornerstoned with me focusing on Sky_Paladin's case, and parroting others, thus providing 'fake content'. This is fine and all... except the post before his I spoke about something else. Then he has a go at me being cautious about being lynched Day 1, writing it off as something that is a scum playstyle, when, especially Day 1, he forgets that many town power roles would primarily want to avoid the noose to survive to N1 so they can get a report. These two things together make me very suspicious of Bardiche.

Sky_Paladin: Aside from his awful first post-RVS post which I have already dissected, there's his 'refuse to consider any other case until that player comes back to defend themselves.' line despite my post about the events around Mitsuki and Schezo [And CF7]. Also he calls Bardiche's argument 'quality' when it's not. Reinforcement?

Cheez: 'For now, Raikaria not even trying to read most people leaves a worse impression on me than NNR.' - Sigh. Do I have to go through this again? I stated a dislike for CF7's case on Schezo, I commented on the events around Schezo and Mitsuki.

Mitsuki - I had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth around the time there whole thing happened with Schezo, but it's gone now.

CF7: Not too happy with him because of his 'case' on Schezo, as I mentioned before, but this is not major.

Seriously you three form a conga line of badly reasoned votes.

I'm not sure if I should vote Bard for being the main ringleader with this flawed logic outright ignoring some of my content and the fact that town PR's would want to survive as well, or if I should continue to vote Sky for sheeping and abandoning his own case, in tandem with his prior awful post. PX in my books is also a good vote.

Right now I'm gonna stick with Sky for 'Not me Over me' purposes, but I'll happily vote Bardiche or PX over him right now.