Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F

[Ghaleon]

Poercing attack wasnt an example that i thought was indeed an example of not obviously better, but an example of having unknown #s causing difficulty to determine without actually trying everything out.

Maint is indeed good for insta high resist, but i sas not expecting a tough time with hina for the reasons i mentioned and didnt bother. And parsee landed silence cuz i didnt bother making sure her main item wasnt something like a sword of singing delusion =p

[Trickster-kun]

I thought Alice was hard, F9 Tenshi is a nightmare. Almost wish I'd recruited Reisen instead of Kags now.

Any tips for the fight other than Weakness: poison?

From my experience in the fight not too long ago, what I did was:
 
-Bring Hina into the active party, and put some debuff resists on the rest of the party. Start with Aya, then have Hina debuff Tenshi 2-3 times. Since Tenshi will explode anyone with buffs, you can actually 'bait' her attack into the tank (Mokou or Komachi, really). I used Rinnosuke and Sanae for this, since I maxed out their Speed to be fast buffers/switchers.
-For offense, you might have to rely on RNG a bit, because what I did was bring in my nukers for just one buff, then switch them back out. I was able to hold the line long enough to stack Nitori, Suika and Yuugi to about ~60-70%, then since Tenshi's stats were kept down due to Hina, I was hitting moderately hard-- not at the same level of other bosses, of course, but you're shredding a little over 50k HP. You also get a few free shots when she Focuses, I guess.

Best of luck!

[Serela]

Leaning Iron Mountain (monk subclass attack) works pretty well on 9F Tenshi, too. You need to max it so it ignores as much def as possible, though.

Forcing Tenshi to "explode" (lol) the person who has good buffs and is specially set up to take the attack is also a pretty great idea, it's what I did. But it depends on actually having a character with enough stats to pull it off (Or Mokou who can revive a few times if something goes wrong). Guardian Subclass is nifty to trying to pull it off due to it's self-buff (and/or various damage mitigations) and just having Reimu onfield can significantly reduce the damage taken too with Armored Ying Yang Orb.

I'm not sure if I was even debuffing her that time, though, so having atk/spd debuffs would surely make it way easier >_>;

[ditt93]

I thought Alice was hard, F9 Tenshi is a nightmare. Almost wish I'd recruited Reisen instead of Kags now.

Any tips for the fight other than Weakness: poison?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLSvZIdPVkE

I'll just post this video I saw again. :V

The strengthen part starts at 9mins.

[Ghaleon]

Yeah that monk leaning iron mountain attack is *good* for a subclass nuke. It doesnt just pierce defense well, but its damage is flat out respectable even on low defense enemies, and the delay is pretty standard.

[Exxelent_]

-video-

This was somewhat helpful, but he's really overleveled the CL for the encounter and I'm trying to go through the game at or 1 level below the CL.

[ditt93]

This was somewhat helpful, but he's really overleveled the CL for the encounter and I'm trying to go through the game at or 1 level below the CL.

Ya, just hoping it gives you some ideas, also bringing someone that can apply Heavy helps, not sure if Heavy still lowers defense.

[Dodging_Rain]

I actually went the debuff route personally since I cannot really reliably buff my characters without not risk getting a sword to the face, not to mention I had to do character reset so that some characters don't passively buff others on their turn (Aya's passive speed buff).  Having Komachi + Minoriko also helps draw aggro from Tenshi as well.

[Sungho]

If someone else got the sword to the face, it means that the tank wasn't buffed enough.
The boss will always attack the left-most person with enough buffs(total of buffs is more than around 100%) if there is at least one person who has enough buffs.

Also beat the strengthened 9F boss with the Monk Momiji + Instant Attack trick. Took about almost an hour.
Thankfully got all 3 item drops, even when there was only 45% chance of that happening, with Nazrin and Rinnosuke.
Should've used Nazrin's Rare Metal Detector, but Poison didn't seem to work anymore, so I got lazy.

[Yookie]

After being beaten to a pulp repeatedly by the Magatama on floor 12 cause 10 of my teammembers were not capable of dealing damage to it (with one of them not being able to take a single hit) and I lacked healing I've replaced Satori with Rumia again.
She is basically a perfect fit in my party, providing Mystic and Dark damage of the piercing kind and having a group heal.
And I like Rumia. :V

But more importantly: I've run through floors 13 to 15 for a third time now and only just got the idea to make a proper map of them. I like maps.
And since I noticed that there is just a text-guide on the wiki, here they are:
If you either don't want to really bother with it again when playing for a second or more time or if you don't like this kind of puzzle or are just kinda sorta stuck, here are my maps that display which are the temperature-switches, how they modify it and which temperature is required for the different gates. They also show which holes lead to where.

Beware though: There's also the Post-game parts of the floors on those.

Floor 13
Floor 14
Floor 15

[Kirin no Sora]

Okay, I know that this may sound like a stupid question, but is the Diva subclass still as broken as all hell?

Also, is "Tome of Reincarnation" something that the game is still limited in number on, or have they remedied that?

[Axel Ryman]

Okay, I know that this may sound like a stupid question, but is the Diva subclass still as broken as all hell?

Yup

[ZXNova]

Hello everyone I'm back from the dead (not). My internet died, so I'm at the library. (۶ૈ ᵒ̌ Дᵒ̌)۶ૈ=͟͟͞͞ ⌨

Anyway, was basically grinding for gems on Ama no Murakumo, got a bunch so far. Need to grind more... Don't think there will ever be enough gem grinding though. I finally figured out a trick to defeat the sword in it's second phase without having to go through all the hassling stuff. Hyper buff Flandre, Reisen, and Kasen, wait for Kusanagi to do Great tree that descends from the sky, make sure everyone has at an ATB level of 9000 or more when it happens, then switch em out (along with Aya to increase everyone's speed) and just blow him up.

Also, why is Diva subclass to borked? I gave Aya Diva class, and it seems pretty funny.

[Ghaleon]

Yeah why broken. Seems that even "slow" bosses move faster than most of my party so killing everyone's action bar equally doesnt seem like it really gains me anything. I mean i can see how its good to speed i up or slow down if the boss' is near full and yours are not but thats hardly a game breaking scenario.

Now i you were overlevel and were faster than bosses that would be another story but that is rarely the case imo.

[Dodging_Rain]

Actually you can essentially make the boss not be able to act at all.  Simply have one character invest everything in speed and nothing else and make them a Diva.  Then have Aya just be as faster than your target by investing in speed only as well (which should be easier).  For this example, I was using Cirno as a Diva so that her constant turn can potentially debuff the enemy's speed and if she gets a turn where the enemy has less than 7000 turn meter left, she can throw an icicle fall to potentially drop its speed down by 50%.  Then it is a matter of "dance of the snail" + concentrate until it is Aya's turn whom also buffs allies speed.  She uses her turn to give a free turn to someone else that is most likely constantly have their turn meter below 5000 due to constantly being moved back.  With your turn being buff and enemy team being debuff in terms of speed, you can essentially constantly do this not allowing enemies to act at all.  For best result, have Reisen on the front line for Intense Vertigo.  The downside of this strategy is that it is very boring, in both ways that it is time consuming and that there isn't any excitement in defeating bosses this way.

Something to note is that the strengthened wasps are EXTREMELY fast and will outpace your fastest character regardless (I think they have 1300 speed) and debuffing them is rather difficult as well.

Protip: If you are farming gems, have just the necessary characters that you are going to use at full level while everyone else is at level 1 so that your average level is at or below 100.  This gives you an additional gem or a training manual.

[Axel Ryman]

It's pretty much like this.

Put all of Aya's level up boosts into her Speed Stat. Give her 3 Sub equips that raise this as much as possible, and for her Main equip, give her either Elixir of Mages, Orb of Earithin,  or Yogurt Doll.

Give her Diva Subclass, put Skill points into SPD Boost, Dance of the Snail, and Teachings of Gensokyo's Fastest. For extra effect, add in Tengu's Wind for a passive speed boost.

Once a battle starts, Aya is at 10000 ATB. Everyone else will usually be at 5000. Dance of the Snail and you drop everyone to 0. Except Aya, who will be at 7500 due to post use. This means the boss needs to go from nothing to full for a turn, while Aya only needs 2500.  Aya will most likely get the next turn, and once she does, you can see how much ATB the enemy gained and then go from there.  With proper setups on other party members, they may even be able to get a turn before the boss, especially if Aya has Tengu Wind on, she's getting her turns faster and faster to where the 4000 post-use from Guidepost for the Advent of the Divine Grandson might not mean much to Aya. Now inflict Debuffs on the enemy, mainly Speed, and they'll most likely never get a turn while you can give allies turns thanks to Speed Buffs + Divine Grandson.


Can't say I've tried this on post-game bosses though

Spoiler:

Except Strengthened Final Boss

, but considering how ridiculously fast Aya was when I tried it [(Nearly 2000 Speed at level 228[Blame the person who gave me the save]) to the point where I could Concentrate 2 times in a row and still get a turn, I'm guessing this might work on most of them at least.


Could also try Dodging's idea as well of making someone else the Diva, Just make sure they can recover 4+ MP per Concentrate, more if you plan to use them for attacking.

[Kirin no Sora]

And now, for my reply to the fact that the Diva subclass is broken, which is in fact an idea as to how to fix the subclass as a whole:

---
Spells:

Spell name: Swift Samba
Former name: Rhythm Dance
Old MP Cost: 4
Old Skill Point Cost: 3 per level
Old post-use Gauge: 75%

New MP Cost: 7
New Skill Point Cost: 5 per level
New post-use Gauge: 50%

Spell name: Minuet of Snail
Former name: Dance of the Cochlea
Old MP Cost: 4
Old Skill Point Cost: 3 per level
Old post-use Gauge: 75%

New MP Cost: 7
New Skill Point Cost: 5 per level
New post-use Gauge: 50%

Reason for changes: I'll be honest and say that I'm hoping that this will be enough of a nerf to make it so that it's not such a game breaker anymore, but not enough of a nerf to make these spells completely useless. Is this enough, or too much?

Skills:

Diva's Knowledge: Same as before, no change.

Song of Delight
Cost: 7
Max Level: 4
Effect: When the skill holder performs an action, everyone on the front line gain a (SLv)% buff to ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, and SPD.
Reason for change: In all honesty, I have no idea why this skill is part of the Diva's skill set at all. Makes me think that the developers simply put the skills that they had no other place to stick to onto this sub class(I personally think that the Strategist should be the one to have the EXP Up skill). Anyways, the new effect is effectively a watered down, yet more expensive version of Majesty, except that it's for the entire front line. Something tells me that this skill is OP in its current form, though...

Soothing Lullaby(formerly called Silent Melody): Same as before, no change.
Reason for change: "Silent Melody" is essentially an oxymoron, so the name change is written to imply that you're putting the enemy to sleep, and thus sneaking past them while they're taking a nap. To make sense, in other words.

Restful Melody (replacing Chime of Good Fortune)
Cost: 10
Max Level: 2
Effect: Makes the Rest command in the menu use less TP per use. This skill does not stack with other Divas possessing the same skill, and only the highest level of the skill will apply.
Reason for skill change: Again, I don't understand why this sub class even has this skill, and it doesn't even have the excuse of it being a skill that's exclusive to the Diva itself, as the Magician has the same skill under a different name. As for the new skill, it's a unique skill that doesn't affect you during battle, but outside battle, much like Soothing Lullaby, and making the Rest command less costly would allow for longer treks into the dungeon(even though this is one of the last classes that you'll get, so...), and help in getting longer winning streaks, which is kind of like having a EXP, Gold, and item drop boost all in one, if done correctly.

---

And that's all that I have to say about it. What do you guys think of my idea?

[Ghaleon]

haven't used it so my opinion may be off but I think the class itself is really pretty crappy unless you use it with those extreme circumstances making it broken. Rather than nerf it so chances of being useable in that broken fashion is harder (and make it even less useful in every other situation as well). I'd think it' dbe better to actually buff the spells it gives in most ways... but debuff the enemy with something that has no resistance. like that "boost" buff or whatever, basically you cannot diva-ificate an enemy again unless their diva debuff thingie falls below a certain % again, perhaps 50? doesn't matter, wont happen anyway. But that IMO would prevent it from being abused in the way that it can be, without gimping its use in more traditional situations.

[Hawk]

Wow, floors 13-15 are great.  Map traversal finally became a thing I needed to think about.  I wish it had happened earlier.

As an aside, I whipped up a script to tell me all my characters' BP values.  Figured it wouldn't hurt to share.  Requires Python 3.3, but could probably be backported with little trouble.  Just stick it in the your save folder (save/save1, for example) and run it from the command line.  Note: will spoil the character roster--if that's important to you.

[Axel Ryman]

Or you could just do this

http://i.imgur.com/O7Gy9LA.png


But if anything, this makes it so we don't need to do that so it's nice either way.

[Hawk]

Oh wow I didn't even know that screen existed.

Derp.

[ZXNova]

Yeah, figures why that skill class is borked.

I really don't think Diva needs to be rebalanced, it seems fine as it is. It's good if you're trying to grind, have a team with a Diva, Keine, and Nazrin and look at all the exp you get for everyone! So I don't agree with the most of your changes @ Kirin no Sora.

Changing the name of Silent Melody to Soothing Lullaby makes more sense.

Also, having an ability that makes the rest command cost less TP is also very useful. Have a Diva and Chen and look at how little TP you lose! (When you run or rest)

[Kirin no Sora]

haven't used it so my opinion may be off but I think the class itself is really pretty crappy unless you use it with those extreme circumstances making it broken. Rather than nerf it so chances of being useable in that broken fashion is harder (and make it even less useful in every other situation as well). I'd think it' dbe better to actually buff the spells it gives in most ways... but debuff the enemy with something that has no resistance. like that "boost" buff or whatever, basically you cannot diva-ificate an enemy again unless their diva debuff thingie falls below a certain % again, perhaps 50? doesn't matter, wont happen anyway. But that IMO would prevent it from being abused in the way that it can be, without gimping its use in more traditional situations.

A buff for said spells, rather than a nerf, is a better idea? Hm...

Bearing in mind that these spells affect everyone on the field, I actually consider the Diva sub class as the "Hina Kagiyama" of the sub classes. That's to say that it runs on it's gimmick which seems, well, 'gimmicky' at first glance, but is in fact insanely powerful when properly set up. And as I figure it, nerfing how much it can reduce or increase the time bar won't help because messing with that messes up the gimmick.

Personally, I don't think that the Diva's spells are crappy at all if they can make a game breaker when combined with some fast characters, Ghaleon.

Yeah, figures why that skill class is borked.

I really don't think Diva needs to be rebalanced, it seems fine as it is. It's good if you're trying to grind, have a team with a Diva, Keine, and Nazrin and look at all the exp you get for everyone! So I don't agree with the most of your changes @ Kirin no Sora.

Changing the name of Silent Melody to Soothing Lullaby makes more sense.

Also, having an ability that makes the rest command cost less TP is also very useful. Have a Diva and Chen and look at how little TP you lose! (When you run or rest)

The EXP boost skill is okay on the Diva? I would of thought that the Strategist would be better suited for such a skill, seeing as you need the character out in the front to have any of said sub classes's other skills to work(also, you get the Strategist sub class sooner, so there will be more opportunity to make use of it during the main game).

I'm glad that you like the Restful Melody skill that I had thought up, and I'm glad that you think that Soothing Lullaby makes more sense. Thanks.

[Axel Ryman]

Personally I think one of the issues is the Post Use Gauge for Dance of the Snail. 7500 is just way too high when you're lowering everyone's ATB by a full 5000 points(If Max level).  Lowering it to about 2500 on Post Use would be better imo. This still allows a bit of ATB manipulation but doesn't break the game, just delays the enemy's turn.


I was going to include a small buff for it on the Player side, but then I thought that might be too much.

[Hawk]

Just hit 17F.

On the one hand, I can appreciate that they toned down the floor complexity from LoT 1.  Fire stratum was fun, but most of the temperature puzzles were localized to a single area--you never had to set up multiple floors/areas at once to get somewhere.  Purple stratum has "directional" warps, so it's very easy to understand a path at a glance.  Both of these things meant I never had to write anything down or make a map.

But it still leaves me kind of wanting.  10F-12F in LoT 1 were amazing, and there hasn't been anything even remotely similar so far.  Teleporter mazes (like 18F) were lame, but at least they gave floors character.  I literally don't remember the layouts of any floors before fire stratum in LoT 2.  They were just boring walk-a-thons.

LoT 2's dungeon design just seems so bland, even as they improved pretty much every other aspect of the game.

[Serela]

The floors will keep going up in complexity, but I still don't really think you'll be much more satisfied than you are right now.

[Hawk]

Actually, thinking about 10F-12F in LoT 1...there have been a distinct lack of true multipart bosses.  I think only the Remilia/Sakuya battle actually is?  There are a plethora of "summoner" bosses though.

I hope some of the Touhou boss fights coming in the special disk are multipart: Marisa+Reimu, Moriya crew, Aya+Momiji, etc.

Edit: Team ⑨ fight would be incredible.

[Ghaleon]

Not really sure what you mean by multipart since the final boss is one, komachi is one, kaggy was one, pretty sure there were more. and entei was NOT a multipart boss in lot1 aside from killing one unlocking the power nuke for the other (cept reisen).

In any case, There are features in lot1 that were "better" than lot2. I prefer the music in 1, which is of course a matter of taste, but even if you do not there was more variety of music. More boss songs, a new bgm after every floor instead of every 3. A Diff song for each menu in the town, etc.

The floor exploration was also more advanced because not only were they 1 way walls, but the game was capable of having 2 spots on a grid separate from each other via a wall, lot2 cannot separate 2 explorable areas without having a full gap in between, so it isn't as capable of seeming nearly as maze-like.

I also felt that despite lot2 having 2 kinds of equipment you can wear, lot1 definitely had more variety and gaps in power in equipment. I also didn't keep count but I think lot1 had more bosses per floor on average as well.

Lot2 is still great and fun and I love it but it definitely did make some sacrifices in certain areas for sure imo.

[Hawk]

I think there's a pretty significant difference between bosses with different phases vs bosses with distinct parts.  LoT 1 Eientei was absolutely a multipart boss.  There were 3 different targets with different moves and resistances, that each had a different ATB bar.  That's a completely different dynamic than 1 target.

Vanilla LoT 1 music remains my favorite.  Special disk music and LoT 2 music are both similar grades of "okay but not as good" for me.

LoT 1's one-way paths are sort of emulated by warps, but not to the same extent.

I think LoT 2 has fewer bosses because some of them were "replaced" with FOEs.  That said I think the FOE concept sort of fell flat for me (at least so far).  FOEs in EO were interesting because they had unique movement patterns, and they could join battles in progress already if you took too long.  LoT 2 FOEs basically just sit still until you get close, which essentially just makes them normal bosses that you can't retry on.

Also FOEs should've appeared on your map.  Seriously.

[ZXNova]

Time for multi-part FOEs.

When extra disk comes out, if they were gonna add more Touhou character bosses, I'd expect a lot of them to be multi-part. Eientei, Moriya... oh god, imagine fighting the whole SDM crew at once. *shivers*

And yeah, Diva being like the "Hina" subclass makes a lot of sense. Seems unintuitive but is actually quite powerful. Hina can even debuff through "star" level debuff resistance, which is silly.