Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F  (Read 219467 times)

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #660 on: May 14, 2014, 03:58:36 PM »
Its easier for sure in general but i think the biggest contributing factor is simply i know the inner mechanics of lot in general. When inplayed lot1 for the first time i was quite new, there was no wiki, and actually other than trance i dint think anyone else who spoke english beat it, and trance wasnt any help anyway cuz he LIKES overgrinding so any experiences he had with the game was not neccesarily viable at minimal levels (though we didnt know what minimal was back then, point is we (well I) still didnt go out of our way to grind up the yinyang).

Plus i kinda self handicap myself. I juuust made alice a hexxer because other than her trip wire, my entire party that i pretty much refuse to alter has no form of debuffing. I have no source of poison, par (well reimu can with yinyang orb later but i didnt skill i up yet), etc. alot of the "proper" strategies for bosses are not options for me so i just have to beat them via traditional means. The only real thing i do differently because of lot1 knowledge is prepare for near death focus 1shot phases.

That said mu general traditional playstyle is defined based on my knowledge of lot mechAnics regardless of boss patterns, which is to say my appreciation for tanky stats on even nuke characters and spamming reimu defense buffs accompanied by some via ran (i do her attack buff too), etc.

Is there some option to see the name of enemy attacks? I cant see em.

DA

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #661 on: May 14, 2014, 04:45:43 PM »
Alright it has been way too long since I last played through main game so how many stones of awakening are there in main game I assume 11 but I am not sure anymore because I feel like I missed a stone of awakening for main game. I know you get 1 in postgame but I dont know if like one of the main game stone of awakenings where moved post game also.

Validon98

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #662 on: May 14, 2014, 05:00:25 PM »
IIRC there were 10 in the main game, and you get the last two in the postgame.
Derping at Touhou since June 2012, derping at RPing Touhou since Feburary 2013.

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #663 on: May 15, 2014, 02:37:39 AM »
Seeing how messed up Maintenance is on Nitori, I went and see how it is on Renko.

Dat evade and HP.  That's not even putting on items that are found post-game either. 

For the record, I tried to see what happened if you build her more offensively despite having less than 6.0 growth on att and mag.

Well it's respectable enough though not enough to be a dedicated damage dealer (Galaxy Stop didn't really give me impressive numbers either).  Doesn't help that, aside from Sealing Club, she doesn't really have much personal skills to boost her damage.

Edit: More news on Renko.  Giving her the enhancer subclass and putting points into Heart of Prayers (heals when buffing) does reduce the damage that the frontline takes by healing them after the damage is deal from 33% to 17% while enhancer strengthening pushes the buff strength from 44% to 51%. 

Total result is 17% HP front-line for 51% frontline buff which you can heal up almost completely with another enhancer with a party buff (ex. Reimu, Keine, Yukari, Ran) or Mari's Homemade Barrier (seriously, there's so much synergy between the two). 
Conclusion: Enhancer is a pretty good role for her.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 04:05:37 AM by Dodging_Rain »

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #664 on: May 15, 2014, 06:19:36 AM »
Enhancer is just a good subclass in general. I mean most of the subclasses kinda require the character using it to have certain things to really utilize the subclass. But enhancer is just really good for any class that can buff.

anyway, 16f trash.. blargh... my problem is almost all of them have just a little bit too much hp to nuke down in time before an attack. kinda like bronze golems in lot1, it's like they all are bronze golems in that regard (minus their 1shotting everything).

Also, there's some red event thing where yukari yaps at me and I can't proceed, whatzat?

Kirin no Sora

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #665 on: May 15, 2014, 07:13:02 AM »
Quick question about the "Easygoing" skill: does do the "regenerate hp at double speed when in the back row" thing? Because if it doesn't, then someone needs to change the info on the wiki to reflect this...
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

jaxter0987

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #666 on: May 15, 2014, 07:58:31 AM »
I can't believe I actually was able to come back to the thread to see 5 new pages since I last visited.
Anyway, here's my current post game team:

Byakuren - Tanky Support - Strategist for obvious reasons.
Renko - Bulky Support - Enchanter for obvious reasons.
Aya - Evade Support - Monk because I specced her entirely for SPD and EVA and practically everything about Monk benefits her in that regard. She used to be a good source of Wind damage for me before the game decided they were having none of that.
Alice - Bulky Mage - Transcendent because she had so many points that I didn't know what to do with and it adds to her Bulky Mage role. She's my only other source of DEF targeting damage other than Eiki.
Wriggle - Tanky Support - Pharmacologist to give her something useful to do when bosses resist Poison. Even when they don't, Wriggle generally has more than enough MP to make full use of Herb of Excitement.
Minoriko - Bulky Support - Magician because she's a giant freaking battery when she's a Magician. Boss takes away all MP? A quick concentrate and Magic Transfer gets everyone up and running thanks to Rapid Charge OR several strategic Form Changes will get her enough MP to throw Magic Transfer around a couple of times thanks to Desire to Rest.
Reimu - Bulky Support - Enchanter for obvious reasons. She doesn't see nearly as much use anymore thanks to Renko though.
Kaguya - Glass Cannon Mage - Sorcerer for debatable reasons. I don't agree with Ghaleon's concept of buffs being less useful on DEF / MND piercing characters. I see the logic behind it but I'd rather have the raw damage of 200% (doubled from 100%) than the mitigated damage of 130% (~quadrupled from 30%). They're glass cannons anyway, so while you could feasibly have them take a hit or two, I feel like you're playing them wrong without going for raw damage. Plus having a Wind elemental attack in her arsenal is also nice. (Gambler doesn't have enough perks for me to use it instead. It also makes Kaguya's MP problems even more pronounced.)
Marisa - Glass Cannon Mage - Sorcerer for debatable reasons. I realize that the way I've been using Marisa, she's more suited for Gambler. But this would require me giving her MP equips just to be able to use Master Spark at the doubled cost and I'd rather have the option of casting Master Spark early without having to wait for her MP to fill all the way.
Sanae - Bulky Support - Magician because no other subclass really suited what I wanted to do with her. Miracle Fruit basically becomes obsolete once I use it to get Byakuren to 100% / use Renko instead, so her being a Magician gives her another purpose.
Eiki - Glass Cannon Warrior - Warrior for the same reasons I mentioned for Kaguya. Also, having two more types of elemental damage for when enemies resist Spirit is nice.
Komachi - Tank - Healer for obvious reasons.

I haven't done the
Spoiler:
Strengthen Boss Rush
nor
Spoiler:
Strengthen Ame no Murakamo
. The former is due to the fact that Strengthen Memorized Knowledge is a piece of shit and the latter is due to the fact that I'm farming the normal for stat gems (at 1 per run, seemingly drops all types except for MP and TP).
Also, there's some red event thing where yukari yaps at me and I can't proceed, whatzat?
Post game stuff. Have fun trying to beat the Postgame bosses at challenge level because I honestly have no freaking clue how to even attempt some of them at challenge level.

Also, why do you call Minoriko "Minoruke"? Just curious, as I've yet to see that nickname used for her elsewhere.

EDIT: I recently edited the characters roles to better reflect what they were, after I realized that I thought like this:
In case anyone's wondering, (I highly doubt people can't figure this out if they were actually wondering but anyway) in terms of survivability:
Tank > Tanky >= Bulky > Frail / Glass Cannon
(Tanky is greater than or equal to Bulky, since I'm sure some people use the terms interchangeably to mean the same thing).
This edit is largely cosmetic, but I like coming back and making my posts "better" in case new people come to the thread.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:39:44 AM by jaxter0987 »

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #667 on: May 15, 2014, 09:36:53 AM »
Byakuren - Tanky Support - Strategist for obvious reasons.

Not sure... same reasons as why I say remi is mine? super good at self buffing and reducing the loss of it is extra extra good on her (in additon to having at least 1 strategist in general is good, but better off having it with the bonus mentioned than without...combined with the fact of the character being kinda "there" often regularly anyway so you get to buff your group more often as well.

Those are obvious reasons to me but in my experience with other people playing games like this, they don't actually think that way. They prefer "%s added to bigger stats is always better!" which..isn't incorrect per say, but it can be misleading sometimes.

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Aya - Evade Support - Monk because I specced her entirely for SPD and EVA and practically everything about Monk benefits her in that regard. She used to be a good source of Wind damage for me before the game decided they were having none of that.

I made mine a healer cuz regardless of enemy wnd resist, her atk+spd provides good "offense per second" for heals, Evasion also helps in pretty much all situations. Do you not need a healer? well don't make her one. I felt like I wasn't having TOO many healers then thought who would be the best, chose her.. if you ahve too many ignore ofc but may be worth considering if you get a chance to try again!


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Alice - Beefy Mage - Transcendent because she had so many points that I didn't know what to do with and it adds to her Beefy Mage role. She's my only other source of DEF targeting damage other than Eiki.
And Aya minus your problem with wnd resist (or whatever it is causing your problems with aya). That said I don't know transcendent at all yet, don't have one yet (not far enough), however I think I read somewhere that it buffs your characters' base stats much like the skillups and the special gems...as in they add a flat amount * level... as in more significant benefit to those who are LOW in those stats than those high (adding 1 to 5 is a bigger deal than adding 1 to 15). I don't know if these mechanics are correct or not (wiki, please be more complete like in lot1 qq), but if they are having "good in everything" stats to begin with, it may in fact affect them less so than others...that said. I'm not saying transcend is a bad choice. I mean if you wish to help her offense and defense it's not like anything else does better.
[/quote]

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Kaguya - Glass Cannon Mage - Sorcerer for debatable reasons. I don't agree with Ghaleon's concept of buffs being less useful on DEF / MND piercing characters. I see the logic behind it but I'd rather have the raw damage of 200% (doubled from 100%) than the mitigated damage of 130% (~quadrupled from 30%). They're glass cannons anyway, so while you could feasibly have them take a hit or two, I feel like you're playing them wrong without going for raw damage. (Gambler doesn't have enough perks for me to use it instead. It also makes Kaguya's MP problems even more pronounced.)
not saying you can't disagree, but  I have a feeling that you're disagreeing with something I never said. What I SAID was blah blah blah I think you really did understand. What I think you misunderstood though is I never actually said that said classes that amplify the attacks of characters who ignore defenses are poor choices all the time. I just said they don't affect those characters as much as they do others, so consider other possibilities before you blindly (and by you I don't mean the person I'm quoting but general players) think sorcerer = best choice for mag nuke, warrior = best choice for atk nuke.

I honestly don't see another class that demands use from kaggy soo... yeah. I don't disagree with your choice sooo..I don't think you can disagree with mine? =P.

Now eiki on the other hand, I said monk, and I stick by my claim. I don't think "foolish idiot making eiki a warrior, what an effing noob" (no I'm not suggesting you were that offensive either I'm just having fun here =P ), but monks are kind of an odd class where that they are not pure physical like sorcerer is pure magical and warrior pure physical, they do in fact favor physical nukes over magical...I still think your eiki would be better as a monk. Now I said it like a dozen times, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I don't know/understand stuff yet (lot2 mechanics are still full of unknown variables so yeah, I have no shame saying such). But assuming everything is the same as lot1, I think that while warrior is indeed a better class for eiki than most of everything else (unless you used for something other than judgment spam...judgment is so amazing though, why would you do otherwise! =P ), I think monk is the exception for her. Because as I mentioned, the warrior attack buffs on her don't actually affect her as much as they could others, and the monk buffs affect her as well, by a very competitive amount (in additon to helping her other stats, which are NOT bad unlike what the wiki says)


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Marisa - Glass Cannon Mage - Sorcerer for debatable reasons. I realize that the way I've been using Marisa, she's more suited for Gambler. But this would require me giving her MP equips just to be able to use Master Spark at the doubled cost and I'd rather have the option of casting Master Spark early without having to wait for her MP to fill all the way.

I agree, I kinda think gambler has too extreme drawbacks to its benefits. Especially now in lot2 where getting mp when outside the front 4 using focus/concentrate seems so much slower.

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Eiki - Glass Cannon Warrior - Warrior for the same reasons I mentioned for Kaguya. Also, having two more types of elemental damage for when enemies resist Spirit is nice.
blah blah monk blah has more than just spirit too blah.

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Also, why do you call Minoriko "Minoruke"? Just curious, as I've yet to see that nickname used for her elsewhere.
...
because I suck with names...and cuz after all these years...nobody else has corrected me, and..uhh...I suck with names.. like...aot. and... *RUNS AWAY CRYING*


Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #668 on: May 15, 2014, 10:34:46 PM »
OK I think I figured the reason why some of my characters have not been performing very well in the post dungeon of late, elemental affinity.  It seems that the game expect you to have 200 affinity by the time you get there.  This probably explains why I been dealing 0 damage to some enemies.  This is going to be expensive.

ZXNova

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #669 on: May 15, 2014, 10:44:44 PM »
I agree with many of the thing said by jaxter, but there are some things I question and just feel like saying.

Byakuren - Tanky Support
I honestly never thought of her as a tanky support. But I can see why someone would do that. She certainly has the potential for it. However, imo, Byakuren is more of a Bulky Offensive support. I gave Byakuren Monk because Byakuren is a Monk (drunk). Also the regen, bonus speed, the skills, ATB reduction, etc.

Tanky Support Wriggle - Pharamcologist huh? Never thought about that. I should try it.

Glass Cannon Mage Kaguya - I wouldn't exactly call Kaguya "glass cannon" She has very high mind, so I would rather call her bulky mind mage. I was always confused on what subclass to give her. It's difficult to choose for someone like her.

Gambler Marisa - That honestly makes so much sense.

Glass Cannon Warrior Eiki - Another character I have a hard time thinking of a subclass for.

@Kirin no Sora - It does do that.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #670 on: May 15, 2014, 11:50:06 PM »
Also, why do you call Minoriko "Minoruke"? Just curious, as I've yet to see that nickname used for her elsewhere.

I was wondering that, too..

...
because I suck with names...and cuz after all these years...nobody else has corrected me, and..uhh...I suck with names.. like...aot. and... *RUNS AWAY CRYING*

...and now I'm glad that I didn't ask.

Note about Transcendent: If the stat boosting is per level, then it would benefit fast levelers(Chen, Rumia, Kogasa, Minoriko, Cirno) more than slow ones(Patchouli). In fact, part of me wants to think that characters like Chen can benefit from said sub-class more than things like Warrior in late-game/post-game because of the high levels that you would have by then. 3.3 stat up on HP, ATT, DEF, MAG, MND, and SPD(does it boost SPD? I don't remember...) per level on Chen, the fastest leveler in the game? Yes, please!

Also worth asking: Does the party level still depend of the average of the levels of the party members, or was that changed?

Sanae - Tanky Support - Magician because no other subclass really suited what I wanted to do with her. Miracle Fruit basically becomes obsolete once I use it to get Byakuren to 100% / use Renko instead, so her being a Magician gives her another purpose.

And this is why I would ask for one of three things for her:

1. Give her back her "Nine Syllable Stabs" spell, with the effect that her "Night with Bright Guest Stars"(is that the name, can't seem to remember...) spell's effect from LoT1 had(that would be a 50% EVA debuff, which was useless in that game due to EVA being nonfunctional). As for elements, I would switch her "Night with Bright Guest Stars" spell to MYS, and make this spell SPI element. Granted, if this was combined with my idea of Remi getting a new spell that causes Heavy and a EVA debuff, it would kinda weaken the effect of the idea of the EVA debuff somewhat, but in Sanae's case, this would help her in being a party oriented support character.

2. Give "Miracle Fruit" the power to buff EVA, since there is no one who can do so with a spell. This makes it so that her buff is still useful, even after you get Byakuren(since Byakuren's skill set doesn't help in maintaining EVA).

3. Make her "Moses Miracle" spell more effective by causing it to ignore more and more of the enemy's MND. That way, she'll actually have a more useful offensive option.

On a side note, did anyone write in the wiki that Sanae's heal spell can cure Heavy? Figured that I should ask that...

OK I think I figured the reason why some of my characters have not been performing very well in the post dungeon of late, elemental affinity.  It seems that the game expect you to have 200 affinity by the time you get there.  This probably explains why I been dealing 0 damage to some enemies.  This is going to be expensive.

Wait. Elemental affinity affects offense now? I thought that it only helped in defense.

Glass Cannon Mage Kaguya - I wouldn't exactly call Kaguya "glass cannon" She has very high mind, so I would rather call her bulky mind mage. I was always confused on what subclass to give her. It's difficult to choose for someone like her.

Most offensive mages tend to have high MND, so Kaguya isn't an exception due to that. What makes her special is her affinities, which is the best in the whole game. In fact, the best way to increase her defenses is to raise them up as much as much as you can, which is why people argue that Patchouli is worse than her as a mage.

Of course, as for my thoughts on how to improve Patchouli's defenses:

Also, they could make it so that her "Passive Philosopher Stone" skill can work like this:

Skill Point Cost: 9
Max Level: 3
Effect: Whenever Patchouli uses a spell with an element, if an enemy attacks her with the same element as the one she used before, the damage received will be reduced by (SLv * 30)%. This effect can apply to up to 3 different elements at the same time, with the next newest element overwriting the oldest one in turn.

If I recall correctly, a 90% reduction in damage would be rather useful in actually surviving a hit, and the fact that it registers up to three different elements at the same time means that you can protect yourself and cast a different spell without losing that protection. Since Patchouli is frail as she is, such a defense would be helpful, yes?

@Kirin no Sora - It does do that.

Ah. So then, Easygoing would have quite the profound effect if someone like Meiling had it, which is why you guys said that it would make her OP(even though I still disagree with that, but to each their own...)
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #671 on: May 16, 2014, 01:20:25 AM »
From what I've tested in version 1.203, Easygoing doesn't regenerate HP at double speed in the back row.
It also doesn't say that anywhere in the description.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #672 on: May 16, 2014, 01:28:59 AM »

Note about Transcendent: If the stat boosting is per level, then it would benefit fast levelers(Chen, Rumia, Kogasa, Minoriko, Cirno) more than slow ones(Patchouli). In fact, part of me wants to think that characters like Chen can benefit from said sub-class more than things like Warrior in late-game/post-game because of the high levels that you would have by then. 3.3 stat up on HP, ATT, DEF, MAG, MND, and SPD(does it boost SPD? I don't remember...) per level on Chen, the fastest leveler in the game? Yes, please!

Where did everyone get the idea that it adds 0.3 + 3.0 to the growth on the wiki?  From what I seen, it adds an initial 3 to the baseline value, then 10 more for Body Reinforcement.

Before/after transcendant and body reinforcement.


Note that every value is increase by 13

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Also worth asking: Does the party level still depend of the average of the levels of the party members, or was that changed?

Seems to be.

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On a side note, did anyone write in the wiki that Sanae's heal spell can cure Heavy? Figured that I should ask that...

I would be willing to do so but it seems to be a hassle to get verified

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Wait. Elemental affinity affects offense now? I thought that it only helped in defense.

Odd. I thought the damage increase while I was upping her elemental cold but I guess I was mistaken, my apologies.

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Most offensive mages tend to have high MND, so Kaguya isn't an exception due to that. What makes her special is her affinities, which is the best in the whole game. In fact, the best way to increase her defenses is to raise them up as much as much as you can, which is why people argue that Patchouli is worse than her as a mage.

Of course don't forget to stick a first aid kit to bulk up her health even further.

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Of course, as for my thoughts on how to improve Patchouli's defenses:

If I recall correctly, a 90% reduction in damage would be rather useful in actually surviving a hit, and the fact that it registers up to three different elements at the same time means that you can protect yourself and cast a different spell without losing that protection. Since Patchouli is frail as she is, such a defense would be helpful, yes?

If you mean her skill, Passive Philosopher's Stone, that's 70%.  Something to note is that it does not cover spirit, dark, and physical because of her lacking the correct spell element and her affinity to those is poor as well and I seen plenty of def targeting multi-attack with those elements.


Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #673 on: May 16, 2014, 01:33:14 AM »
Party level is the highest leveled member in your party, not an average.

Affinities only effect resistances.

Chen isn't better with transcendent than others because she's still going to be glass, so she really doesn't benefit from the overall increases; she's better off with a pure damage class like Warrior or Gambler (monk could have it's uses)

Patchouli's Philosopher's Stone will cover physical when she uses Concentrate, which could synergize with her Grand Incantation skill. But it's still questionable if she'd live through a physical even then, even with a first aid kit, considering her rock-bottom defense. (-70% is a lot though so maybe she'd be fine after all, with a first aid kit)

Easygoing has a different description in the latest translation patch than it does on the wiki. With how the patch effort handles lines that were changed, the description ingame is more likely to be the accurate one. Renko can heal herself a massive amount with Concentrate if you use a main equip for it... but she's got plenty of tempting main equip choices.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 01:36:20 AM by Serela »
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Sungho

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #674 on: May 16, 2014, 01:36:05 AM »
Party level is average level in Normal mode, highest level in Hard mode.
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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #675 on: May 16, 2014, 02:53:17 AM »
Even if you do somehow manage to take care of Chen's stat problems in terms of survivability, she also has the worst aiment resistant AND elemental affinity total.  The creators of the game went out of their way to tell us, she's not meant take any hits.

Also, not sure about this but it feels like Maribel plays like a hybrid Reimu + Patchy.  Anyone else has experience with her give me more insight?

ZXNova

  • Life is an explosion!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #676 on: May 16, 2014, 05:31:49 AM »
@ Kirin no Sora - OH wait sorry, I'm thinking of an ability with a similar effect but a different name. (Desire to Rest). Sorry I'm dumb. Also, I know about the resistance thing on Kaguya. They are just so good man. Though, I honesty see no reason to compare Kaguya to Patchy, they don't seem like the types of comparing. If you do compare them, Kaguya is just gonna win in the end hands down. There will be some situations where Patchy may be better in, so no worries. I think every character in this game has a justification for being used at some point (even late game).

Also, if Easygoing were to be on Meiling, I really do believe it'd make her OP. I use it her all the time, and if she had to ability to regenerate HP while concentrating while also having a powerful self heal and a decent heal/status removal, she would be the master healer. Now give her a healer subclass and she's broke. No one will die, not on Meiling's base! Meiling got super nuked and isn't fast enough to use her heal? Switch her out. Heal super fast, come back out.

EDIT
What do you think of Monk Rin?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 05:52:39 AM by ZXNova »

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #677 on: May 16, 2014, 07:55:37 AM »
Not sure... same reasons as why I say remi is mine? super good at self buffing and reducing the loss of it is extra extra good on her (in additon to having at least 1 strategist in general is good, but better off having it with the bonus mentioned than without...combined with the fact of the character being kinda "there" often regularly anyway so you get to buff your group more often as well.
Those are exactly the reasons why she's a Strategist.
Those are obvious reasons to me but in my experience with other people playing games like this, they don't actually think that way. They prefer "%s added to bigger stats is always better!" which..isn't incorrect per say, but it can be misleading sometimes.
I guess I gave people a bit too much credit then if that's the case.
not saying you can't disagree, but  I have a feeling that you're disagreeing with something I never said. What I SAID was blah blah blah I think you really did understand. What I think you misunderstood though is I never actually said that said classes that amplify the attacks of characters who ignore defenses are poor choices all the time. I just said they don't affect those characters as much as they do others, so consider other possibilities before you blindly (and by you I don't mean the person I'm quoting but general players) think sorcerer = best choice for mag nuke, warrior = best choice for atk nuke.

I honestly don't see another class that demands use from kaggy soo... yeah. I don't disagree with your choice sooo..I don't think you can disagree with mine? =P.
I guess I just misinterpreted what you said. I made the connection that since buffs are less effective on piercing characters, a subclass that essentially buffs a specific stat (ATK for Warrior, MAG for Sorcerer) would fall under the category of being less than optimal, by your logic.
Now eiki on the other hand, I said monk, and I stick by my claim. I don't think "foolish idiot making eiki a warrior, what an effing noob" (no I'm not suggesting you were that offensive either I'm just having fun here =P ), but monks are kind of an odd class where that they are not pure physical like sorcerer is pure magical and warrior pure physical, they do in fact favor physical nukes over magical...I still think your eiki would be better as a monk. Now I said it like a dozen times, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I don't know/understand stuff yet (lot2 mechanics are still full of unknown variables so yeah, I have no shame saying such). But assuming everything is the same as lot1, I think that while warrior is indeed a better class for eiki than most of everything else (unless you used for something other than judgment spam...judgment is so amazing though, why would you do otherwise! =P ), I think monk is the exception for her. Because as I mentioned, the warrior attack buffs on her don't actually affect her as much as they could others, and the monk buffs affect her as well, by a very competitive amount (in additon to helping her other stats, which are NOT bad unlike what the wiki says)
.
.
.
blah blah monk blah has more than just spirit too blah.
The way I play her is that I swap her in for an attack and swap her back out.
Monk Eiki doesn't appeal to me because the reduction in ATB consumption is wasted since she's not staying in after she attacks anyway.
The EVA boost from Monk's Knowledge is also wasted since she's not supposed to take a hit with the way I play her and Body Revitalization is wasted since she's not out for more than one turn anyway. Body Revitalization also works best on characters who take turns often and Eiki isn't exactly one of the faster characters. Also who takes the most turns other than the fastest in Gensokyo? (Rhetorical Question, just in case that didn't get across through text)
I realize that the buffs would still stay on her, but in my opinion, Body Revitalization works best when said skill holder is actively in battle potentially taking hits. My Aya has equipment for HP and Elemental Affinities as well as SPD and EVA, so that if she DOES take a hit, she might still survive.

And while Monk also has two additional elements with useful side effects, the way I play Eiki just does not mesh with her being a Monk.
I agree with many of the thing said by jaxter, but there are some things I question and just feel like saying.

Byakuren - Tanky Support
I honestly never thought of her as a tanky support. But I can see why someone would do that. She certainly has the potential for it. However, imo, Byakuren is more of a Bulky Offensive support. I gave Byakuren Monk because Byakuren is a Monk (drunk). Also the regen, bonus speed, the skills, ATB reduction, etc.
My initial thought after getting Byakuren was to make her into the best offensive character ever with decent bulk. After speccing her for attacking however, I felt she played more like Alice in the damage department. She wasn't doing the amazing damage I was expecting, so I instead turned her into a support which has proven to be highly effective for my play style. Offensive Support Byakuren could easily work since 3 out of her 4 offensive options inflict useful side effects and Skanda's Legs is a good self SPD boost while also attacking, but I just didn't need her for that.

Monk Byakuren would definitely suit that style, since her delays are decently large to make use of the ATB reduction (which I'll remind everyone that it decreases consumption by 10%, not a flat 1000.) and Body Revitalization just adds to what Byakuren already does naturally.
Where did everyone get the idea that it adds 0.3 + 3.0 to the growth on the wiki?  From what I seen, it adds an initial 3 to the baseline value, then 10 more for Body Reinforcement.

Before/after transcendant and body reinforcement.


Note that every value is increase by 13
The numbers on that page of the game is misleading. Your actual stat growth is 1/10th of the baseline value.

Transcendent adds .3 to the stat growths of HP, ATK, DEF, MAG, MND, SPD due to Transcendent's Knowledge (meaning it'd add 3 to the baseline value)
and adds .1 for each point put into Body Reinforcement (meaning it'd add 1 to the baseline value)

I'm actually more surprised and curious about where you pulled the 0.3 + 3.0 from.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou_2/Gameplay#Base_Stats_and_Stat_Formulas

Also, to answer question of whether or not Sanae's spell cures Heavy:
[attach=1]
I've updated the wiki to reflect this.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 08:17:03 AM by jaxter0987 »

Gesh86

  • Buddha may forgive you...
  • but Byakuren won't!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #678 on: May 16, 2014, 09:23:07 AM »
Finally beat the post-game yesterday evening.  I agree with Xarizzar from a while ago that while the Strengthen Final Boss requires higher numbers to beat, his strategy is far easier to figure out than that of
Spoiler:
Culex's and a few others
. So yeah, I'm done. 104 achievables. I'm already looking forward to my challenge run, exploring characters like Rinnosuke, Momiji, Ran, Sanae and others that I've immediately shoved aside for whatever reason.

Also, not sure about this but it feels like Maribel plays like a hybrid Reimu + Patchy.  Anyone else has experience with her give me more insight?

I've had her around whereever she would be remotely useful during post-game. I wouldn't reduce her to just being a hybridization of others. Very few characters have the shake-ailment linked to a somewhat powerful attack. Her self-buffs may be the best in my opinion, even with the HP-reduction. Her Homemade Barrier I've only used very rarely, the healing is not too strong and I'd rather have Pharmacologists target dedicated attackers with a superior boost than the whole group. Most of the time, I only have one good attacker active anyway, not wanting to risk losing several at a time and all.
Her biggest niche I'd say is the skill where she calculates buffs as debuffs. It helped me a lot against
Spoiler:
the Root of Magic
. That one was such a pain!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:41:14 AM by Gesh86 »

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #679 on: May 16, 2014, 10:25:50 AM »
I thought maribel was a god-awful character in lot1. But now she looks effing amazing. her defenses are better than reimu's, and she doesn't level up that much slower either, her self buff is obviously good, especially since it doesn't decay as fast for her. Oh and she's got like the only void element attack in the game (though I guess it's not that big a deal since so many characters have arm twisting).

And yeah, that buff reversal thing is probably flat out game-breaking for certain bosses. I mean I imagine she could basically solo any boss that buffs itself to 100% regularly.

ZXNova

  • Life is an explosion!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #680 on: May 16, 2014, 05:52:48 PM »
Hmmm... I wonder if Monk could be a good subclass on Yuugi. I know for certain Warrior is probably the best class for her, but I also wonder about Monk...

EDIT

Where can I get more stat gems?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 06:16:26 PM by ZXNova »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #681 on: May 16, 2014, 06:58:57 PM »
Monk is pretty decent on Yuugi especially if you use her as someone that stays on the field and helps with her issue with her speed and long delay on KOI3S nuke as well as good constant damage from Supernatural Phenomenon though note that her speed will still not be stellar.  Before floor 16, it also allows her to be good at sweeping trash as well.  It also gives her an option to combat against enemies that are virtually immune to physical damage (though using Yuugi against such a foe may be questionable).

You can farm the normal final boss for gems.  It's a little annoying since you cannot skip the ending cut-scene.

ZXNova

  • Life is an explosion!
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #682 on: May 16, 2014, 08:55:15 PM »
Aw... really? I have to fight the final boss over and over again to get more gems :|

Anyway, just fought the strengthened evil nut eater, this boss is quite annoying. Komachi was not doing such a good job tanking in this one. However, I did just discover how freaking tanky Wriggle is. She was tanking a lot better than Komachi for this fight. (Likely due to her high resistances and nature resistance) I'm so glad to have her as tank, she really put in a lot of work before being ko'd unfortunately. Poisoning a lot things, using poison touch to counter attack, and using paralyzing incense (that was the biggest help). After Wriggle died I switched to Komachi and had Remi switched out by now with Scarlet Devil Mansion+Last Fortress+Majesty+Curse of Vlad Tepes and ready to spear this chipmunk, but then Komachi used Narrow Confines of Avici and inflicted death on the evil nut eater... which was completely unexpected and quite reliving, though I could have handled it just fine without it. It just really really shortened the annoying battle. Thank you based Komachi.

jaxter0987

  • Umiiro Shoujo ni Miserarete
  • Umi is love, Umi is life
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #683 on: May 17, 2014, 01:14:56 AM »
Aw... really? I have to fight the final boss over and over again to get more gems[/b] :|

Anyway, just fought the strengthened evil nut eater, this boss is quite annoying. Komachi was not doing such a good job tanking in this one. However, I did just discover how freaking tanky Wriggle is. She was tanking a lot better than Komachi for this fight. (Likely due to her high resistances and nature resistance) I'm so glad to have her as tank, she really put in a lot of work before being ko'd unfortunately. Poisoning a lot things, using poison touch to counter attack, and using paralyzing incense (that was the biggest help). After Wriggle died I switched to Komachi and had Remi switched out by now with Scarlet Devil Mansion+Last Fortress+Majesty+Curse of Vlad Tepes and ready to spear this chipmunk, but then Komachi used Narrow Confines of Avici and inflicted death on the evil nut eater... which was completely unexpected and quite reliving, though I could have handled it just fine without it. It just really really shortened the annoying battle. Thank you based Komachi.
Yeah, I've been doing that for awhile. My goal is to get every to max out on gems before attempting the Strengthen Boss Rush (Strengthen Memorized Knowledge still gives me crap).

And yeah, the Evil Nuts Eater was one of the few Strengthen Bosses that were vulnerable to Death. I think one of the Wasps was the other one that was vulnerable to Death but my memory escapes me.

Xarizzar

  • RPG fan
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #684 on: May 17, 2014, 01:29:50 AM »
Finally beat the post-game yesterday evening.  I agree with Xarizzar from a while ago that while the Strengthen Final Boss requires higher numbers to beat, his strategy is far easier to figure out than that of
Spoiler:
Culex's and a few others
. So yeah, I'm done. 104 achievables. I'm already looking forward to my challenge run, exploring characters like Rinnosuke, Momiji, Ran, Sanae and others that I've immediately shoved aside for whatever reason.
Actually, I think I also argued that I needed higher levels for the
Spoiler:
Guardian of the Great Crystals
rather than the
Spoiler:
Strengthened Blade of Heaven's Gathering Clouds
. Still haven't tried to do that lvl 100 attempt though.

Kirin no Sora

  • Wanderer of Gensokyo
  • I have returned from the nothingness once more...
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #685 on: May 17, 2014, 01:50:39 AM »
If you mean her skill, Passive Philosopher's Stone, that's 70%.  Something to note is that it does not cover spirit, dark, and physical because of her lacking the correct spell element and her affinity to those is poor as well and I seen plenty of def targeting multi-attack with those elements.

Actually, I wasn't referring to the skill as it is now. I was referring to how it could be improved so that Patchouli can survive one hit. I even quoted myself to show what said improvement to the skill would be.

Also, they could make it so that her "Passive Philosopher Stone" skill can work like this:

Skill Point Cost: 9
Max Level: 3
Effect: Whenever Patchouli uses a spell with an element, if an enemy attacks her with the same element as the one she used before, the damage received will be reduced by (SLv * 30)%. This effect can apply to up to 3 different elements at the same time, with the next newest element overwriting the oldest one in turn.

...hm. The more I think about it, the more that I want to rewrite it as "when Patchouli uses or is affected by a spell(including spells cast by allies), she gains a "Element Guard X" status, where X is the element of the spell that she used/was affected by. If an enemy attacks Patchouli with the same element as said "Element Guard", the damage received will be reduced by (SLv * 30)%. Patchouli can have up to three different "Element Guard" status at the same time(and they must be different, no having two of the same element), with the next newest element overwriting the oldest one in turn", so you can have allies cast a spell on her, and the element of said spell would trigger it, creating a defense for her before an enemy can flatten her. The reason that I would call for a 90% reduction in damage is because she's too squishy to not be in need of this sort of defense, and 10% can still be lethal via damage if her defenses aren't built up enough. Plus, she has terrible ailment resistance, so that will still be something to watch out for when using her.
There is no greater joy than knowing that the Touhou invasion is unstoppable, and the legacy of Gensokyo will never fade away...

Axel Ryman

  • Fear me
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #686 on: May 17, 2014, 02:26:40 AM »
Streaming a bit of my speedrun progress now at http://www.twitch.tv/axelryman. Feel free to come in and give advice/support.

DA

  • Some dude on the internet
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #687 on: May 17, 2014, 04:08:08 AM »
Wow, I originally thought the max hp cutting boss was the worst thing but oh my god I hate this strengthen mirror at floor 20. You can barely damage it and it has high resistances on top of it and it does loads of damage back at you. You can debuff it but I'm having an issue in actually damaging it. Any ideas I could do before I throw my laptop out the window. Like I looked at my old save and realized it has a little less resistance to physical but is there any main strategy to this thing or is it time to play the buff and debuff game and hope enemy rng doesnt destroy me.

Edit: Nevermind I beat it with the power of GAMBLER YUUGI being buffed and stuff. Also debuffing the enemy
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 04:23:39 AM by PrinnyAce »

Axel Ryman

  • Fear me
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #688 on: May 17, 2014, 05:39:10 AM »
Finished streaming. I didn't do too much though. Mostly just fighting Kracken, Blue Orchid, and Tenshi. Also Iku, but I'll get to that.


Kracken is pretty easy. Any damage it could of done is gone since I beat Hina and explored 6F.

Blue Orchid on the other hand...well it can't really kill me, but I have trouble killing him. Took a while before I could sufficiently hurt him.

Tenshi is...well I didn't bother trying to get any item drops. It's just a matter of not wasting time.


Shortly after I fought Mokou to get Reisen. Note to self: Don't kill Mokou before she resurrects. I nearly Game Over'd but Komachi managed to survive. Went through 7F to realize I can't really stand up to the normal battles. Went straight to 8F, got Relay for Iku grabbed 2 items(Hero Medal and Big Bang Wagonizer) before setting up for Iku.


Now Iku....I need to grind a bit now. I keep getting to around the halfway point thanks to Wriggle's poison, but after she buffs herself, she just overpowers me. And it doesn't help that she has decent evasion too. Even Parsee with Healer stacking Mind couldn't survive(She has less than 400 HP. Iku did over 700).

So pretty much I need to grind and grab some items. I might have to fight the Wind Stone to get the +100 Wind Resistance item. Interestingly enough though, Wriggle alone can probably solo this fight with a Mind Tank setup + Healer. I just need to be able to survive past the halfway point.

So yeah. Party is around 19-21 for a Challenge Level 29 boss, so I'm going to hit around 24 first before reattempting anymore fights.

I also lazied my notes in the middle of the stream, so I need to re-type them up for everything I did today.



Now pardon me, DFO is calling my name.

Ghaleon

  • Long twintail-o-holic
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F
« Reply #689 on: May 17, 2014, 10:08:09 AM »
just touched 19f and am going to zizz-land now. note that the wiki lies about the 18f boss, forward time can res its allies even if only one is defeated...Despite that little hiccup, I killed it on my first attempt at an even greater self-imposed handicap than meeting the challenge level... my skill levels haven't been touched since 15f and are about 50-60 for stats that are good for my characters, others left at much lower, 1, or resistances which are I forget.. like 10-20 I think?

I'm trying to reach the 1m achievement before beating the game... practical or useful? nope, but I want to challenge myself for one, and 2, feel the "oomph" if and when I reach 1m and spend them all at once.. (heh heh heh). (I'm at 500k now btw, prob 550k-600k if I sold osme of the duplicate gear I got from 18f)

the trash on 18f was a total bish btw, maybec uz the skill point thing. haven't seen 19f trash yet.