Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F

[Dodging_Rain]

Yeah, Kaguya is very good at what she does. I find her a lot more useful than Patchy (they have the same leveling difficulty too) She's faster, isn't as frail, and seemingly hits harder than Patchy thanks to her ignore 90% of mind passive. Like, in every situation I could justify using Patchy, I could also justify using Kaguya (or someone else), and she would do better at it. In all honestly, Patchy is just too dang crippled. Bad HP, bad Defense, Bad physical resistance, horrible speed, horrible ailment resistance, it's just terrible. Sure she has the highest MAG growth and 2nd highest MND growth, she can still take damage from high Mag attacks and get paralyzed, poisoned, etc.

Yuugi is almost a physical equivilent of Patchy, except she isn't frail. Lowest MND growth (I think), but her resistances are fine, she has the highest DEF growth and nice HP, and 2nd highest ATK growth (for some reason), and ok ailment resistance. I can justify using her more because at least her terrible MND is easier to handle than Patchy's terrible DEF and PHY resistance. Plus she's faster, making her easier to do her thing and switch her out. Also the ability to apply heavy/paralysis and a super physical nuke.

I gave Patchy the subclass magician and I have yet to effectively use her that way, that may be due to how paranoid I am of using her. She probably is a good magician, but I'm just too scared to use her. Halp. D:

Actually it is Momiji that has the highest def growth, beating Yuugi by 0.4. 
The lowest mind belong to Chen at 3.4, followed by Flandre and Komachi at 4.  Yuugi is  4.8.   
Maybe make Patchy a transcendent?  Don't think Patchy needs magician class because she also has no MP problems and too slow to really utilize the spellcards it provides. 

[Ghaleon]

Patchy in lot1 was one of my fave characters, and her stats were pretty much exactly the same.

I was very eager to get her in lot2, but when i did... I was like damn she sucks! As ive said numerous times, her low hp and def in lot2 is far more crippling in 2 than 1 because nearly every boss in lot2 is capable of hitting the back character for decent physical damage. I don mean row attacks, but flat out true multi targets which were rare as fuu in lot1... Making patchy ALWAYS gambling for survival.

Thats not all though, her actual damage is sub par too. Yes her magic is still high, but the formulas on her attacks seem pretty gimp. Ive had her deal 0s to some bosses on too many occasions, when in lot1 her silent selene was often one of the spells you would expect to do good damage to enemies with where eveyone else was doing 0s... Even royal flare which didnt have a piercing formula could simply power thru enemy defenses quite well thru sheer force. For example those helbermeres or wtf they were called took 0s from virtually everything but defense ignore attacks, megawatt cannon, master spark, ko in 3, slash of eternity, minoruke's leaf thing, silent selene and royal flare... Maybe a few i forgot, not many though. Aside from minoruke's leaf attack though, all those attacks listed were full bar high mp cost nukes. And while royal flare was a full bar nuke, its mp cost wasnt high, and it hit every enemy. And silent selene only ate half a bar.

Now she does 0s to enemies just as easily as your average attacker.

Of course there is the sdm passive argument. But im still dubious it can help that much, and it still wont solve her problem of being subject to fatal physical damage far more often.

[Dodging_Rain]

I was going to say if you use concentrate+nuke combo but seeing that Patchy can't survive out very long, being out on the field isn't viable and if she actually needs SDM bonus to be viable, something is wrong.  I'm mostly using her now to get BP to get

Spoiler:

Flandre

(although her event is missing despite me having 300 BP on each of the other SDM household and I thought have thought I was hunting FOEs to extinction...

[Axel Ryman]

You might of missed one of the events on a previous floor. Someone had that issue once too.

[ZXNova]

Actually it is Momiji that has the highest def growth, beating Yuugi by 0.4. 
The lowest mind belong to Chen at 3.4, followed by Flandre and Komachi at 4.  Yuugi is  4.8.   
Maybe make Patchy a transcendent?  Don't think Patchy needs magician class because she also has no MP problems and too slow to really utilize the spellcards it provides.

http://i.imgur.com/ypEabda.png

Patchy has the lowest, HP, ATK, DEF, and SPD growth...

Seriously, too many negatives. Her highest MAG growth and 2nd MND growth just cannot make up for her other bad stats. The extremes are just too unbalanced.

Transcendent is not a subclass for Patchy. Transcendent is meant for those well rounded characters (Kasen), and well... Patchy is far from well rounded. You don't take magician because you have mana problems, you take magician so that everyone doesn't run out of mana. Since Patchy has such a huge manapool, she can just spam mana to everyone else. Yeah, she is pretty slow, but maybe with the right support (cough Aya) she can used well maybe.

Also about the Flandre events, I had posted something about it before...

http://i.imgur.com/CbpNKSr.png (10th floor event)
http://i.imgur.com/HCcEHE8.png (11th floor event)
http://i.imgur.com/m7bBW9W.png (12th floor event)

This should be of some use to you.

[Ghaleon]

Actually i disagree. Transcendant looks like the best choice for patchy IMO. Magician... I dont know the game enough yet to determine for that. The theory that patchy has mp to spare is true, she would indeed be one o the best candidates for a magician yes. But Im assuming mp issues become a near non-issue late game like in lot1, but i could be wrong.

Now simply having the worst stats in 3 catagories  doesnt mean transcendant is bad, plus attack doesnt even matter since she doesnt use it at all.

But if a character has 10 hp and 10 magic and 10 speed 10 def/mnd and they buff them all by 20%, they gain 10 useful stat points. Now patchy in comparison would have like 4 hp, 4 spd, 20 magic, 4 def, 20 mnd. Though her mnd and magic would be the only tats which seem to get a decent gain, they do so for twice as much, making it pretty even.

Furthermore, speed is an odd stat with decreasing returns, so patchy in fact would gain a MORE significant benefit to buffing her speed than other characters.

Sorcerer would look like a possible choice for her too but im not so sure if  magical beating would work with concentration at all (or grand incantstion, whatever its called). Not to mention having her survive for many turns in the front is difficult.
However , her mag is sky high, and yet her damage seems undershelming already. If her spell formulas are truly bad, maybe the sorcerer ones are better? Plus maybe her regular "attack" command will own with her? I have no idea how good those powered up attack passives are. But if they are good at all, then it should be ridiculous on patchy.

Incidentally imma complain about it again. This game effing NEEDS to display the formulas for spells and attacks. I dont understand why game designers make these games tha demand their players to crunch numbers so much and hide the formulas that these numbers actually are USED for.

[Dodging_Rain]

http://i.imgur.com/ypEabda.png

That's odd.  I have Momiji at 12.8 with the info from the touhou wiki.  Is that erroneous?  Where did you get your info from?



And the reason why I did not make Patchy a magician is the reason why I made Aya one. 

Patchy would barely be able to take enough turns to refill a lot and that massive mags would be wasted especially considering that refill and transfer isn't based on any stats that I know of aside from speed. 

That being said, Aya takes several turns before her party members, or even bosses do, letting me fill up on allies MP quickly when needed.  Even if you aren't going to use her as a support, Aya tends to use MP ridiculously fast not because of the mana cost of her spellcards but because she takes so many turns and this passive, along with a chance to not use MP allows her to spam Peerless Wind God much more casually.

Related question: Can extra attack proc subclass spell cards? 

Unrelated question: Aside from boss level restriction and stat-up restriction, what is different about hard mode compare to normal?

Edit: Flandre:Yeah it seems I forgot to snag the f12 event that was hiding behind the barrier.  Thanks.  Also used Patchy in the fight vs Flandre.  Concentration + Princess Undine took a massive 30% of her HP!  Unfortunate I was stupid and forgot to put a first aid kit on Patchy and she died at 2/3 of the fight who would have survived with it. 

[ZXNova]

Actually i disagree. Transcendant looks like the best choice for patchy IMO. Magician... I dont know the game enough yet to determine for that. The theory that patchy has mp to spare is true, she would indeed be one o the best candidates for a magician yes. But Im assuming mp issues become a near non-issue late game like in lot1, but i could be wrong.

Now simply having the worst stats in 3 catagories  doesnt mean transcendant is bad, plus attack doesnt even matter since she doesnt use it at all.

But if a character has 10 hp and 10 magic and 10 speed 10 def/mnd and they buff them all by 20%, they gain 10 useful stat points. Now patchy in comparison would have like 4 hp, 4 spd, 20 magic, 4 def, 20 mnd. Though her mnd and magic would be the only tats which seem to get a decent gain, they do so for twice as much, making it pretty even.

Furthermore, speed is an odd stat with decreasing returns, so patchy in fact would gain a MORE significant benefit to buffing her speed than other characters.

Incidentally imma complain about it again. This game effing NEEDS to display the formulas for spells and attacks. I dont understand why game designers make these games tha demand their players to crunch numbers so much and hide the formulas that these numbers actually are USED for.

I know ATK doesn't matter, which is why I was actually gonna omit it, but decided to put it back in the post.

From what I know, Transcendent increases every stat growth (except ACC, EVA, etc) by 0.3 or 30%.

Now the growth rate formula would be Lvl 1 Stat + (Growth Rate x Level) x  [ 1 + Subclass Stat Growth Increase]

I don't know the speed formula though.

When doing this, be sure not to count level 1. For example, if you calculate [Insert Character's] HP stat at level 39, for level you put 38.

These are Patchy's Level 1 stats

HP - 52
MP - 28
ATK - 14
DEF - 16
MAG - 86
MND - 87
SPD - 101

Here are her level 100 stats

HP - 646
MP - 40
ATK - 212
DEF - 254
MAG - 1689
MND - 1730
SPD - [635.6 (I know that's wrong)]

With Transcendent
HP - 836
ATK - 275.6
DEF - 330
MAG - 2196
MND - 2249
SPD - [826 (Again, Help me)]

I guess Transcendent would be good on Patchy.

Yeah, the game SERIOUSLY needs to display the formulas. I think everyone here agrees on that. Like, in League of Legends they display the parameter formulas for skills and stuff, and I'm sure other RPGs do the same. (Can't think of one atm, kind of brain farting) It would really be a big help, definitely. If we had it it could be easier to justify [insert person] with this subclass and such.

@ Dodging_Rain I got it from the Japanese Touhou Labyrinth Wiki.

[Ghaleon]

Lot1 showed you skill formulas (albeit after special disk, though the jpn wiki had that data before the special disk, and lot2's jpn wiki does not).

Nearly every rouge-like game does, often in a "6D6" format or whatever, elsword will say "skill does 4500% damage", etc.

Many many games give you the exact figures of damage for the spells/skills. Though it is a fairly recent trend (kinda became semi-standard since MMOs became a thing). That said regardless of it bein a standard or not games tended not to be pro make the user number crunch (which i actually like)  until after that same era of time. Seeing some games adopt PART of that new trend drives me nuts.

[Axel Ryman]

Speedrunning the game was best in the version with the bugged Unify function where you gained infinite levelup bonuses and skill points B)

Figure I'd come back to this.


Which version was this? If it was 1.140 then...ooh boy. That will make for some interesting shenanigans.


And how did it work specifically?

[Ghaleon]

I never did it myself but iirc you would simply level down your level'd up characters and they would keep their level ip bonus stat of your choice thing, and you could double them up by leveling up again, then triple by down leveling to 1 and leveling up again etc.

Personally it was such a game breaking exploit i dont see the purpose of abusing it for a speed run over straight up cheat engine cheating =/.

[Axel Ryman]

Simply put, Glitches and Exploits are fair game, but things like Cheat Engine are banned.

[Ghaleon]

Yeah i understand but that was a particularly nasty glitch, one that was fixed in a future version. How is that any different than playing an early build with only 3 floors and saying you beat the whole game after just 3 floors cuz thats all that version had?

[Axel Ryman]

Difference is in the patch version. If I were to do a speedrun on an early build that only had 3 floors, then the speedrun would only apply to that patch version. So if I were to do a run on on 1.203, and then one on 1.40, they would be 2 completely separate runs due to how different they are, both in terms of content and even bugs/glitches.



Edit: Looking over a number of the bestiary entries for mandatory bosses, and I laugh at how

Spoiler:

Iku is Human, Youkai, Aquatic, and Flyer. I can target 3 of those with skills. It's kinda funny.

[Kirin no Sora]

You really like the skill arm twisting hehehe.

In all honestly, Maintenance would probably make Kaguya OP. Considering Kaguya already has one of the high MAG and MND growths in the game, Maintenance (although renamed Rare Item Collector) would be... broken on her. You also have to consider that Kaguya has the best overall elemental resistances in the game (every element except physical is over 100) and giving her maintenance... oh my god. Nitori is already very good with maintenance, becoming a bulky speedy attacker nuke thingy, and putting maintenance on Kaguya would just... break her, I swear. With the right items she would have EVEN HIGHER elemental resistances, sky high Magic and Mind and MP, moderate speed, HP and Defense, and just so strong. Plus if you gave Robe of the Fire Rat and Stone of Aja along with "Rare Item Collector" and Arm Twisting, She would just be the best mage in the game hands down. Mystic, Spirit, Nature, Fire attacks, ignoring 90% of Mind, ignoring some elemental resistances, quick back seat recovery, and "rare item collector", that's just broken. Kaguya is honestly fine the way she is. She's already quite strong now. (Kaguya may be my fav Touhou, but I don't want her broken.)

Okay, let's start.

1. I wanted to replace Robe of the Fire as a skill with Red Stone of Aja, mainly so that she would give a minor boost to everyone while in battle(it's not supposed to be as strong a boost as what the mono-element boosting skills(Magic Training, Blazing, etc.) would offer).

And yes, I actually do like Arm Twisting, considering that it's one of the better skills in the game. If it's considered broken on Kaguya, then maybe...

Related question: Does Easygoing increase how much you heal while in reserve? Because I could see it fitting Kaguya somewhat, if only thematically...

Also, do you think that my "Robe of the Fire Rat" as a spell was OP? I would like to know your thoughts on that.

You want to add arm-twisting to Kaguya's existing ability to basically ignore defense? So, in other words, she'd have entirely nigh-irresistible attacks. That's just silly Maintennance would also make her OP, yes. The characters with it have pretty meh stats and become amazing as it is, already.

2. I honestly wasn't aware of how Powerful said skill was, actually. I simply saw the skill as a sort of a "this skill fits Kaguya's theme of using rare items, so it's good" thing.

Basically what I'm getting at is, suggesting improvements that make characters much better, is out of place if the character is already good. The suggestions for Wriggle and Mystia are less out of place though, yeah. Arm-twisting doesn't sound very character fitting for Wriggle, but it'd make sense on Mokou... although Mokou already has a pretty amazing skillset and several things to help her damage, and she does possess a WND spell with cool offense debuffs (albiet it's probably not that good offensively on bosses; not that I've ever built her offensively because she's a godly tank)

Honestly, even with arm-twisting, if a boss resists fire it just wouldn't be worth using Mokou as a nuker in the first place, so it'd be a moot addition. On Marisa it matters more because A.She has no purpose but damage, and B.Master Spark is silly (and she doesn't even have a single other element in her arsenal, like Mokou's wind spell that can be used for randoms at the least in an offense build) and Kogasa's terror infliction is already pretty insignificant even -with- armtwisting, so it really needs it to not be totally pointless. Utsuho is pretty meh so arm-twisting helps her not be garbage in half the battles even for people who do attempt using her. Wriggle is mono-nature and relies on poison even still, so it'd be a good idea on her, but it doesn't make much sense in-character.

3. Serela, the sheer fact that fire element is resisted as often as it is is the reason for it, not to mention the fact that the side effect of her wind spell(ATK and MAG debuffs) would be easier to land with said skill, so it helps a bit as a skill that makes her able to try to deal damage while being the tank that she is.

4. Unrelated to my posts, but related to the "Patchouli is weak as crap" argument: did you guys test her spell when they were at maximum level, or just at starting levels? I know that it's a stupid question, but it would be nice to clear that up before continuing the debate, so that it's not a factor in all this.

5. Also, as for Wriggle, I honestly couldn't figure out anything that that would help her in inflicting poison, other than my suggestion of a skill that "would inflict Poison with all her attacks and increase the strength of the Poison for those attack that already do", so it was a matter of mechanics more than flavor.

6. I know that I think that I've said this before in some way, but has anyone tested the Sorcerer subclass on Sanae? Given it's perk of boosting row attacks, I could see it helping her actually do some form of damage with her CLD element spell, the spells in there give her access to WND and MYS as attack elements(which is strangely appropriate, given that this is Sanae that we're talking about), and the stat boosts that the subclass gives can only help her, regardless of her build(as if she has more than one).

Also, as a related comment on her, would giving Sanae the "Grand Incantation" skill make her OP? I know that it would fit her thematically, given that her power of miracles requires time and stuff like that for a stronger effect in canon, so this skill would kind of emulate that. The skill itself would make her attack spells viable for offensive purposes and give her healing spell a powerful boost(Although I still don't get why it can't cure Heavy. It should, in my opinion, since it isn't like it would make her OP or anything to be able to do so), so she can be seen for more than her "Miracle Fruit" spell. Just charge up and then cast. Not the same as the other healers, but good enough, yes?

That's all I got for now...

[ZXNova]

The attack "Robe of the Fire Rat" wouldn't be OP on Kaguya, but a nice edition I guess. The point I was makin before is that "Rare Item Collector" and Arm Twisting would make her OP.

Also, there wasn't exactly an argument stating that Patchy was weak as crap (Only one person was really saying her skills were doing no damage), I was just pointing out how fragile she is. Just way too fragile, geez. I mean, it makes sense, but considering that Patchy was in a game like IaMP/SWRS makes me think that her defenses could at least be brought up a bit more ya know. I know that magicians tend to be frailer than the average human (and Patchy is anemic, has asthma, barely moves at all) but they could just give her a bit more reasonable defense at least. Or keep her defense as is and up her Physical resistance. That would help even more than buffing her defense. Ya know, just cover it up by saying "She's using defense magic".

Also, I don't think Grand Incarnation would make Sanae OP. Would buff her offensive potential. Reimu has this skill and well... I never really made us of it cause I only use her as a support. So why not the other Miko have this skill too?

[Serela]

Sanae doesn't really have any business being in an offense build in the first place IMO, it's okay for randoms but miracle fruits is glorious (probably a better use of her turn even in randoms than attacking, unless she's slow) and her heal skill is pretty good with it's additional effects.

[Kirin no Sora]

Also, there wasn't exactly an argument stating that Patchy was weak as crap (Only one person was really saying her skills were doing no damage), I was just pointing out how fragile she is. Just way too fragile, geez. I mean, it makes sense, but considering that Patchy was in a game like IaMP/SWRS makes me think that her defenses could at least be brought up a bit more ya know. I know that magicians tend to be frailer than the average human (and Patchy is anemic, has asthma, barely moves at all) but they could just give her a bit more reasonable defense at least. Or keep her defense as is and up her Physical resistance. That would help even more than buffing her defense. Ya know, just cover it up by saying "She's using defense magic".

Or they could at least leave her Physical Resist at 100, so that it's neutral.

Also, they could make it so that her "Passive Philosopher Stone" skill can work like this:

Skill Point Cost: 9
Max Level: 3
Effect: Whenever Patchouli uses a spell with an element, if an enemy attacks her with the same element as the one she used before, the damage received will be reduced by (SLv * 30)%. This effect can apply to up to 3 different elements at the same time, with the next newest element overwriting the oldest one in turn.

Not enough? Too much? Tell me what you think...

Sanae doesn't really have any business being in an offense build in the first place IMO, it's okay for randoms but miracle fruits is glorious (probably a better use of her turn even in randoms than attacking, unless she's slow) and her heal skill is pretty good with it's additional effects.

And this is why I want to add "Grand Incantation", so that she doesn't need to be in an offensive build to become better at healing, or be able to do something in a fight. And advising towards the use of the Sorcerer subclass doesn't hurt a defensive build at all. In fact, it could be said that it's because "Miracle Fruit" is so good that she can make use of the Sorcerer subclass: because you don't need to improve it outside of leveling it up, so you have options in what you want her to do. And I would wager that she could hit hard enough to justify using the subclass's skills, given that the Wiki states that her "Moses's Miracle" CLD spell is good against high MND enemies, and good CLD element spells are hard to come by in the first place.

And as before, it confuses me as to why Sanae can't cure Heavy with her "Yasaka's Divine Wind" spell. It's like they needed to do so just to make her heal different from the others in that way, when there really is no point in doing so. Really, is it asking a lot to give her that one little thing?

[Sungho]

About stats, with growth values from the character's status screen in-game.
The chart uses 1/10th of that value.

Base
HP = (Lv+6)*(Baseline Value)/10 + 10
ATK, MAG, DEF, MND = (Lv+4)*(Baseline Value)/10 + 4
SPD = (Lv+10)*(Baseline Value)/320
All rounded down,

Final
Base * ( 1+ (Equipment bonuses) + 0.03*(Lv-up bonuses) + 0.02*(Library bonuses)  )
Rounded down.

SPD gets another 100 added to final value.


Since subclass bonuses add to growth value, percentage-wise, weaker stats benefit more from them.
The bonus itself doesn't mean anything more than "0.3*(1+bonuses) additional points per level".

Momiji, as of version 1.203, has higher DEF than Yuugi.
The game explicitly states the values, so you should check them before trying to reference any wiki. If you do have the game.


About useless skills being still there :
Of course, game developers don't plan on making useless skills, unless it is some kind of horrible joke.
It's just that, they become useless while the developer adds more to the game.
Also, it's not like there will be any benefits from removing skills, even if it is useless. (Except for the translators)


Something about this thread reminds me of mafia, for some odd reason.

[Xarizzar]

OK, so yesterday I finally thought it was a good time to do a 3 hour grinding, so... After that,  I managed to finally beat

Spoiler:

The Guardian of the Great Crystals, which was the last extra boss(for me)

. I was a little overleveled. If I wasn't, this would have probably been a tough fight. So after that, I fought the

Spoiler:

Stronger version of the Sword of Heaven's Gathering Clouds/Ame-no-Murakumo, which you can't damage before it gets its first turn, in which it levels up to level 170. lol. I didn't grind between my fight with that Guardian, and I beat the sword in my first try(which may mean that I was still overleveled(?)). Even though the sword has a lot(if not all) of the attacks of the Extra bosses, I believe it's not as menacing as the Extra bosses themselves. The strategy is easy to figure out, in my opinion. So it wasn't that hard of a fight... If you don't try it at level 100, that is.

[Averaen]

Having trouble figuring out how to beat Maribel ver 2.  Specifically the third add.  The wiki says, "and the replacement for Staring Igmaruji is effectively immune to non-defense ignoring attacks, unless it is charging for Rankain."  But I'm not really sure what it means by charging for Rankain.  It's used a skill called Rankain, that buffs MAG + MND.  I don't have anyone that ignores defense completely, and none of my skills are touching him.  I would rather not have to swap in a character I'm not using. Any advice?

Never mind, got it.

[ditt93]

OK, so yesterday I finally thought it was a good time to do a 3 hour grinding, so... After that,  I managed to finally beat

Spoiler:

The Guardian of the Great Crystals, which was the last extra boss(for me)

. I was a little overleveled. If I wasn't, this would have probably been a tough fight. So after that, I fought the

Spoiler:

Stronger version of the Sword of Heaven's Gathering Clouds/Ame-no-Murakumo, which you can't damage before it gets its first turn, in which it levels up to level 170. lol. I didn't grind between my fight with that Guardian, and I beat the sword in my first try(which may mean that I was still overleveled(?)). Even though the sword has a lot(if not all) of the attacks of the Extra bosses, I believe it's not as menacing as the Extra bosses themselves. The strategy is easy to figure out, in my opinion. So it wasn't that hard of a fight... If you don't try it at level 100, that is.

Mind posting your party level? Mine was around 200 and there are people who are more overleveled than me.

[Xarizzar]

Party level was just a little above 200. What matters most is skill level, I believe. Which was 210 on me. I will try to post a video on YT where I try beating him at challenge level...

[ZXNova]

About stats, with growth values from the character's status screen in-game.
The chart uses 1/10th of that value.

Base
HP = (Lv+6)*(Baseline Value)/10 + 10
ATK, MAG, DEF, MND = (Lv+4)*(Baseline Value)/10 + 4
SPD = (Lv+10)*(Baseline Value)/320
All rounded down,

Final
Base * ( 1+ (Equipment bonuses) + 0.03*(Lv-up bonuses) + 0.02*(Library bonuses)  )
Rounded down.

SPD gets another 100 added to final value.


Since subclass bonuses add to growth value, percentage-wise, weaker stats benefit more from them.
The bonus itself doesn't mean anything more than "0.3*(1+bonuses) additional points per level".

Momiji, as of version 1.203, has higher DEF than Yuugi.
The game explicitly states the values, so you should check them before trying to reference any wiki. If you do have the game.

Thanks for the math, but since when did the game explicitly state the values? Where in the game does it say this? Where is the more accurate info?
The wiki is behind I guess, those parameters show growth for 1.150, but not 1.203, so I assumed there wasn't a change that affect of growth rates between those patches.

[Ghaleon]

those figures were always known, and are more or less the same as lot1, and you can just figure them out by looking at your stats grow with each level and skill level and such.

spell formulas are not so simple to figure out by looking because you don't know enemy defenses either. That and there is a + or - 10% factor added to every hit as well.

[Sungho]

If you want to check the growth rates, open the menu, select ステータス確認, then press X twice.
It will show the growth rate, factoring in equipment, subclasses, passive skills, and stat-boosting orbs, and all those things.
The screen also shows Lv-up bonus distribution, number of orbs used, battle points, leftover Lv-up bonus and skill points, and number of Training Manuals used.

The Lv-Up bonus gave 4% for each point before, but it was changed to 3% with patch 1.200 .



Is there an infinite amount of Tome of Reincarnations in this game?

[Serela]

And as before, it confuses me as to why Sanae can't cure Heavy with her "Yasaka's Divine Wind" spell. It's like they needed to do so just to make her heal different from the others in that way, when there really is no point in doing so. Really, is it asking a lot to give her that one little thing?

IIRC I think it actually did heal Heavy in my experience, but I could be misremembering. Don't take my word on whether it heals it or not too hard, but I think it did? That's something that very easily could have been missed in wiki updating.

Also, Miracle Fruits being so good is more of an encouragement in lines of "Sanae should be defensive so she doesn't fall over while casting Miracle Fruits" and that she's more offensively effective using Miracle Fruits than she is in actually trying to use damaging spells herself. Boosting an effective attacker's power, durability, and speed is much more useful than trying to make Sanae cover buffing -and- attacking, which will only make her okay-ish at both instead of great at one.

Thanks for the math, but since when did the game explicitly state the values? Where in the game does it say this? Where is the more accurate info?
The wiki is behind I guess, those parameters show growth for 1.150, but not 1.203, so I assumed there wasn't a change that affect of growth rates between those patches.

The values are in the Various Info or whatever section of your character's stats menu, where you can see what their battle points value is and stuff. I haven't actually played in awhile or I'd give more explicit directions to it. Also, the reason it's different in 1.203 is that character's stat values themselves had some rebalancing; Cirno has a lot more def, for example.

cut by sungho with good directions

[Kirin no Sora]

IIRC I think it actually did heal Heavy in my experience, but I could be misremembering. Don't take my word on whether it heals it or not too hard, but I think it did? That's something that very easily could have been missed in wiki updating.

Also, Miracle Fruits being so good is more of an encouragement in lines of "Sanae should be defensive so she doesn't fall over while casting Miracle Fruits" and that she's more offensively effective using Miracle Fruits than she is in actually trying to use damaging spells herself. Boosting an effective attacker's power, durability, and speed is much more useful than trying to make Sanae cover buffing -and- attacking, which will only make her okay-ish at both instead of great at one.

Okay, I'll respond to this as follows...

1. So, it's currently unknown as to whether or not it cures Heavy, then. That's rather curious.

2. So, what about her healing spell? Is it considered a "just there" sort of spell, or is it actually useful to use? A defensive build would serve well for a healer as much as for a buffer, Serela.

Besides that, if anything, that would make "Grand Incantation" even more valuable to her, as with a defensive build, she can survive a few stray hits while using Concentrate, then casting a boosted heal or attack, so she can do something when she's not buffing up people with "Miracle Fruit".

Related question, does using a spell that does no damage or healing, like Great Hakurei Border, cause the Boost from "Great Incantation" to vanish? Because, if not, then it would be possible to combine the two powers and really have an effect on Sanae's other spells.

I'm not saying that Sanae should be built as an attacker, defensive build is fine. I'm just saying that Sorcerer is something that won't interfere with a defensive build statwise(More Magic, Mind, MP and TP are always good for a mage, regardless of her build, and the skills can somewhat make up for the lack of attack strength in her spells, particularly her CLD spell), and the spells within would give options in the rare case that Sanae doesn't need to buff.

Also, if her buff is so good, would it be a bad idea for her to buff herself, so that she can act quicker, and survive tougher hits? I would think that strengthening the buffer with their own buff would make sense, right?

[ZXNova]

If you want to check the growth rates, open the menu, select ステータス確認, then press X twice.
It will show the growth rate, factoring in equipment, subclasses, passive skills, and stat-boosting orbs, and all those things.
The screen also shows Lv-up bonus distribution, number of orbs used, battle points, leftover Lv-up bonus and skill points, and number of Training Manuals used.

The Lv-Up bonus gave 4% for each point before, but it was changed to 3% with patch 1.200 .



Is there an infinite amount of Tome of Reincarnations in this game?

Oh, I know about that page. So where on that page does it show growth rates? All I see is baseline value, Lvl bonus/skill points, etc. Unless baseline value has to do with the growth rate? Sorry I'm blind.

Also, I remember hearing from someone that Tomes of Reincarnation were finite.

[Dodging_Rain]

1. So, it's currently unknown as to whether or not it cures Heavy, then. That's rather curious.

Actually it does, I just tested it twice.  [/quote]

2. So, what about her healing spell? Is it considered a "just there" sort of spell, or is it actually useful to use? A defensive build would serve well for a healer as much as for a buffer, Serela.

It seems to be a buffed up Meiling Healer and will heal up nicely on anyone that isn't named Komachi or Remilia though the delay is a little prohibiting.

Besides that, if anything, that would make "Grand Incantation" even more valuable to her, as with a defensive build, she can survive a few stray hits while using Concentrate, then casting a boosted heal or attack, so she can do something when she's not buffing up people with "Miracle Fruit".

Related question, does using a spell that does no damage or healing, like Great Hakurei Border, cause the Boost from "Great Incantation" to vanish? Because, if not, then it would be possible to combine the two powers and really have an effect on Sanae's other spells.

Great incantation will be triggered on any spellcards including those that heal or has no numerical damage value.  From my experiments, only healing and damage spells are boosted.  Buffs, Mp restore (magician), and other effect doesn't seem to be affected.

I'm not saying that Sanae should be built as an attacker, defensive build is fine. I'm just saying that Sorcerer is something that won't interfere with a defensive build statwise(More Magic, Mind, MP and TP are always good for a mage, regardless of her build, and the skills can somewhat make up for the lack of attack strength in her spells, particularly her CLD spell), and the spells within would give options in the rare case that Sanae doesn't need to buff.

Also, if her buff is so good, would it be a bad idea for her to buff herself, so that she can act quicker, and survive tougher hits? I would think that strengthening the buffer with their own buff would make sense, right?

Considering that a fully leveled Miracle Fruit buffs 42% to all stats (48% with enhancer), it's not a bad idea especially if you play her as a strategist (or have Strategist Byakuren nearby).  Her survivability seems to be stronger than in the previous game and beats out Reimu slightly statwise though her leveling growth is somewhat slower than the red-white so a full defensive Sanae can be respectively durable.