Labyrinth of Touhou 2 -12F

[ShiroiMahotsukai]

Is the expansion likely to be released as a huge patch? Or is it more likely to be a separate thing I'd have to buy again?

I ask because I didn't know about LoT1 until way after the Special Disk was out so I got that.

[Kirin no Sora]

Okay, here we go...

Remilia: Points 1 and 2 are fine, but Remilia doesn't need additional spells imo. The developers need to imitate what they managed to do in LoT1: Make Remilia's kit really simple but surprisingly effective. The reason why she's kind of meh compared to Kasen is because she essentially saw no change from LoT1. Sure a few skills that kind of give Remilia more power, but these skills are not nearly enough considering how everyone else was improved from LoT1. I stuck with Remilia all through out LoT1 because she was that effective despite having only two spells (granted I haven't tried the final boss of the plus disk with her and my team but its only a matter of time before everyone's stats are worthy of an attempt).

And the fact that Remilia was good throughout LoT1 despite having only one attack spell is pretty much why I suggested new spells. The second attack spell, in particular, would help out a lot, as it's designed for support more than pure offense.

I like remi, and i still do t have her yet in lot2, but assuming she is remotely as survivable in it as lot1... Giving her a hp drain to her normal attacks would be broken. Consider her being a defense build instead of offense in terms of level up bonuses if you still arent convinced.

She'd basically be like china only with much better mitigation, slightly less hp, actually good damage, good speed (for switching), able to self heal more often (both cuz speed, and cuz spear is more mana efficient, and cuz she recovers sp with a focus super fast), and... Unable to heal others.

Now you may argue her self heal with attacks wouldnt be large like china's. but as long as it was significant enough to bring up at all, 'd be crazy good because defense build remi who can self buff her def and mnd (and both being good at base to boot), she pretty much takes 0s more than anyone who isnt tenshi or magic boss vs mnd patchy (or parsee now).

Of course... Maybe her defenses arent as good in lot2 i dunno.

And kasen has pretty much better stats across the board, the same kind of spells (and others), levels faster iirc... Lawl. Basically kasen is what remi should be if this game had class upgrades =\

A. I suppose that means that a HP draining buff is as bad as a HP regen buff...
B. Exactly. Something tells me that Kasen is supposed to be the NEW Remilia, while poor Remi has been left up a creek without a paddle, which is why I suggested new spells. The second attack spell(I would call it Miserable Fate, by the way, after one of her spellcards in the fighting games), again, is what I suggest to allow Remi to stay in the game, as it works in making her into a Critical Hit Class, either with a Spear The Gungnir, or by binding the enemy in chains with Miserable Fate, so she(and everyone else) can smash everyone in the face, and hard.

Suwako getting the Guts skill? No bueno.
She's a glass cannon just like all the other glass cannons. She shouldn't be able to survive a hit period. Either rely on Evasion or good switching skills to keep her alive. I know that Guts is chance based just like Evasion, but it doesn't fit with how she's meant to be played. A frail character doesn't magically take a lethal blow and survive. A sturdy character like Kasen and Meiling on the other hand, could reasonably do this and survive just on sheer will power and this fits thematically with their character type.

jaxter, what is Suwako's current EVA? And even if they improved that, the reason Guts would be there in the first place is to work in tandem with her "Native God of Earth" skill as an emergency measure that other glass cannons don't have(to put it simply, I see this as a skill combo unique to Suwako). Otherwise, why would she even have the "power to recover fully by switching out and using up 1 TP" skill at all? I mean, how much TP does Suwako have in the first place? 11 TP to bounce back to full health is not cheap by any means, so it isn't like she would be able to tank hits like Kasen or Meiling, especially since you only get a fifty/fifty shot at it each time.

About Aya's free turn spell:
It doesn't really give characters two free turns. Its just everyone interprets it that way because ideally, you'd switch your nuker in so that she manages to get her turn just before Aya's, she unleashes her nuke, Aya gives her another turn, she nukes again.

I wish to ask this, then: how does her "Teachings of Gensokyo's Fastest" skill give her two free turns at the start of every fight?

Also, just reminding everyone that the only benefit to leveling up her spell is when the character gets to act. If you keep the spell at level 1, the character would have her time bar set to 10000, which probably means she'll get her turn after other characters who charged their time bar normally. Leveling up Aya's spell to 2 would set the receiver's time bar to 20000, which guarantees that the recipient always act immediately after Aya.

...wait, so my suggestion before would of been a nerf? ...that's very bizarre.

[Sungho]

I'm quite sure the Plus Disk is something you'll have to buy again.
The developer might also separately sell a disk with both contents for the combined price.

Aya almost always gets two turns with that skill because Aya is too fast.
After she uses her first turn, she can refill her timebar fast enough so that she can act again before anyone else.
It doesn't matter whether the skill sets her timebar to 20000, 10001, or even 99999.

For example, with a Lv. 100 Chen and a Lv. 8 Aya, Chen will get a turn before Aya's second if Aya used something like Focus on her first turn.


And it's not like every single skill should be useful to everyone who has it.

[Nerv-Faktor]

To pick up on the Kasen/Remilia discussion:

So Kasen has better stats and more spells.
The question is: Does Remilia in LoT2 actually feel too weak (compared to all characters) or is Kasen just too good?
Remilia's stats still seem very high, like in LoT1, Kasen's are just even higher. If Remilia isn't too weak in the grand scheme of things and Kasen is even better than her then the obvious solution would be to tone down Kasen's stats a bit instead of buffing Remilia, otherwise you'd end up with 2 characters that are "too good".

[Serela]

Remi doesn't seem bad to me on paper (although perhaps a little bit underpowered due to being to jack-of-all-trades statwise and lacking in attack variety), but then you factor in she's part of the SDM and it gets a lot better.

When you use all of the SDM members in your party, it makes a big difference to their usefulness, I imagine. Sakuya is pretty alright either way if you -just- want Lunar Clock but she's not terribly tanky (not more than you could get from most characters in defense builds) or much good of an attacker solo. And Patch is probably usable if you build her well. But really, I think you need to use -all- the SDM members for them to actually be good, but then they should be really good.

[Ghaleon]

Nah i never said/thought remi looks bad, just that kasen makes her obsolete. Though i dont have remi yet, she just might be bad too. For example, jut looking on paper for patchy, she seems to be mostly the same deal as in lot1, which i thought she was great in. But i DO have her in lot2, and the bottom line is for me... Shes bad. Her spell formulas are not as potent, her nukes do NOT seem to be strong enough to compensate for her horribad speed like they kinda did in lot1... And worst of all, being an effective mnd tank seems far less important because seemingly every boss i fight now can do significant ( to patchy, as in 1 shot her) physical damage to the far right now, unlike before where none of the bosses did unless they had needle parade or arrow rain (which few did).

Granted i havent tried her with stacking sdm party members but i never liked sakuya's moveset to begin with, and as i said patchy can just die in one shot from virtually every boss now... I cant imagine the sdm buff is very good with just china and remi... Oh yeah, flan.... Shes not exactly someone with stayin power either.

That said, MAYBE (doubt it though) remi is actually better than kasn if her spear formula rocks some serious $@???.
I really wish we saw spell formulas qq.

[Nerv-Faktor]

if her spear formula rocks some serious $@???.

I think Spear is indeed much better in LoT2 than in LoT1, though it's obviously still not some kind of super-nuke now.

Nah i never said/thought remi looks bad, just that kasen makes her obsolete.

"Obsolete" isn't the word I would use here. Kasen seems to outclass her, but that's not really a reason to not use her.
Using one of the two doesn't stop you from using the other one too. There might be benefits in using both.

[Dodging_Rain]

I will note that, according to the wiki, Remilia actually has the 2nd highest HP growth of the game losing only to Komachi by 20%.  Kasen is 9th.  This means Remi can be a 1st slot tank and, unlike Komachi, she has strong def (5th and 20% above average) and decent mnd (5% above average).  Furthermore, with her high speed 4th fastest, losing to Rin, Chen, and Aya, allows her to be a fast attacker and switcher as well.  If you give her the monk profession, this allows her to use her even higher speed and puncturing thrust as a turn delay.  Beat down allows her to use the monk's Making Normal Attacks Whole to her advantage for random trash.  I also like her personal skill set more than Kasen).

That being said, Kasen is more versatile being able to utilize more elements without professions (leaving her free to use another profession), her buff not requiring Meiling or a healer (and being faster), higher mind than Remi, have better leveling, and ailment resistance) in addition to being available much earlier and thus getting off a better start.

Finally, as someone said, there isn't a rule that you can't use both lightning bruisers.

[Kirin no Sora]

Aya almost always gets two turns with that skill because Aya is too fast.
After she uses her first turn, she can refill her timebar fast enough so that she can act again before anyone else.
It doesn't matter whether the skill sets her timebar to 20000, 10001, or even 99999.

For example, with a Lv. 100 Chen and a Lv. 8 Aya, Chen will get a turn before Aya's second if Aya used something like Focus on her first turn.

And again, that confuses me, because if a skill is going to push up the time bar like that, then why 20000? It really is confusing that they don't simply make it so that the spells and other actions of all the characters simply subtract from the timebar. I mean, the Shock status ailment(halves timebar), Yuyuko's spells, and the Diva subclass are all proof that the game can do that, so why is everything else set like it is?

And it's not like every single skill should be useful to everyone who has it.

Sungho, I'll presume that you did not mean Suwako's "Native God of Earth" skill, because if you did, I would flat out say it: If a character has a skill that isn't useful to them, then why do they have it? I would kind of understand if it was something simple and plain like Agility(more about that below), but a character with a skill that allows for a complete recovery of HP should have a situation where she can use it, especially if the name of the skill is thematically appropriate for the character.
Also, I just realized that Suwako and Kanako both have enough room for two more skills,, so I'll say what's on my mind and think of what could fit there...

Suwako: Seeing as Agility is probably there as a thing to keep Suwako from being slowed down by enemies, and Suwako is not someone who can benefit from this unless she's hit by something, I see it as a sign that you're supposed to swap her out if she takes any damage at all, so that she doesn't take two hits on the field. That said, I'll leave Agility alone, and just advise that Guts and Beat Down be added to her skill set. The former is as I said before, to make a skill combo with her unique skill "Native God of Earth", and the latter is mainly for when you use her multi-target spells to deal with floor trash, so that she doesn't run dry on MP so quickly while you go exploring.

Kanako: Ah yes, the other goddess of Moriya Shrine. I have looked into her skill set, and I can easily recommend two things to aid her further: Encounter with a Formidable Foe, and To Increase One's Fighting Spirit. The former aids Kanako in boss battles, where this skill, plus the Majesty skill, will really help in ramping up Kanako's stats in a fight. The latter is in tune with her durability, as it grants her more offensive and defensive power with each passing turn. Of course, were her "Ability to Create Heaven" skill able to reduce damage taken as well as it's normal effect of increasing damage dealt, she would become almost unstoppable... (Would she be OP if it was all added up together like that? If so, then I would have to recommend something else, but what?)

And that is all that I have for now.

[Serela]

It really is confusing that they don't simply make it so that the spells and other actions of all the characters simply subtract from the timebar.

Because things are more balanced and scale better this way.

In general, you often seem to suggest things that power characters up a lot. Most of the time though, these characters don't actually need to get powered up. Suwako is a good glass cannon as she is (even if most of her abilities aren't very relevant, which I do admit is a little strange and probably could use some tweaking) at least until compared to Flandre, who is a difficult to unlock character. And Kanako seems about fine as-is, with alright durability for an offense character and a good nuke of uncommon nuke element that debuffs atk+mag together, and a second nuke for coverage. She also already has a skillset that is entirely useful; none of her skills are unrelevant, like most of Suwako's are.

...actually, I think Guts on Suwako actually would be pretty nice switch for one of her skills, I have to admit. But yeah Kanako is fine.

[Kirin no Sora]

Because things are more balanced and scale better this way.

In general, you often seem to suggest things that power characters up a lot. Most of the time though, these characters don't actually need to get powered up. Suwako is a good glass cannon as she is (even if most of her abilities aren't very relevant, which I do admit is a little strange and probably could use some tweaking) at least until compared to Flandre, who is a difficult to unlock character. And Kanako seems about fine as-is, with alright durability for an offense character and a good nuke of uncommon nuke element that debuffs atk+mag together, and a second nuke for coverage. She also already has a skillset that is entirely useful; none of her skills are unrelevant, like most of Suwako's are.

...actually, I think Guts on Suwako actually would be pretty nice switch for one of her skills, I have to admit. But yeah Kanako is fine.

Sadly, this sort of thing is kind of a habit of mine, since my nature in games is to play it safe, rather than risk it all, so I do apologize for that, Serela.

If Kanako's fine as is, then so be it. The truth being that something tells me that she kinda has everything that she needs, something that I cannot say for Suwako.

Quick question: Would adding Beat Down as well for Suwako be too much, because I remember that it doesn't increase in power with how many enemies you kill as the same time, so it would be used much in the same way as with Flandre(only more so, because Suwako doesn't use as much MP as Flandre, but still more than the skill can actually restore).

Also, exactly how it is that things scale better by setting the timebar to the same number, rather than subtracting from the timebar? As I recall, the timebar lets you act when you reach 10000 or higher(how the system can't catch the timebar at exactly 10000 every time, with some guidelines as to deal with what order people go in if they have a tie, is also a point of confusion in my opinion, since a computer program should have no problems whatsoever in doing this, regardless of what computer is running it), so subtracting by a set number, rather than setting the timebar directly, shouldn't really affect how it functions in game.

[Thata no Guykoro]

So I've been trying to take out the Strengthen Bosses, and it's rough going. My team is generally in the high 120s-low 140s, but I've generally been unable to put up any kind of good offense/got shredded before getting to do anything. The only ones I've been able to kill so far are the Nut Eater and Paralyzing Wasp with instadeath and the

Spoiler:

Black Goddess

with Nitori/Aya/Yukari. Does anyone have any advice for taking on the other nine? Advice for specific ones would be very appreciated.

[ZXNova]

I like remi, and i still do t have her yet in lot2, but assuming she is remotely as survivable in it as lot1... Giving her a hp drain to her normal attacks would be broken. Consider her being a defense build instead of offense in terms of level up bonuses if you still arent convinced.

She'd basically be like china only with much better mitigation, slightly less hp, actual good damage, good speed (for switching), able to self heal more often (both cuz speed, and cuz spear is more mana efficient, and cuz she recovers sp with a focus super fast), and... Unable to heal others.

Now you may argue her self heal with attacks wouldnt be large like china's. but as long as it was significant enough to bring up at all, 'd be crazy good because defense build remi who can self buff her def and mnd (and both being good at base to boot), she pretty much takes 0s more than anyone who isnt tenshi or magic boss vs mnd patchy (or parsee now).

Of course... Maybe her defenses arent as good in lot2 i dunno.

From what I remember seeing on an earlier post, her defenses aren't as good in LoT2. Meiling is much more tanky than Remi due to her ability to sustain herself and has actual passives that make her a tank. Remi (who actually has better slight better HP and DEF growth, and better MND growth, and better overall resistances) Does not tank passives and no way of sustaining herself. Remi is meant to be a fast bulky DPS attacker. If you made her a tank, she wouldn't do so well. She doesn't really have the qualities of a tank, but like I said before, bulky DPS. Making her a tank would mean you'd have to sacrifice her speed, and power. Sure she'd end up being faster and maybe hit harder (Don't underestimate Meiling's mountain breaker, it actually hits quite hard for having low atk), but what would set her apart from other tanks? Does she sustain herself really well from getting hurt? Like she gets nuked and refill herself to full kind of hurt? (and unless Remi is Aya fast, she ain't gonna be spearing enough to fill herself to full) Can heal others? A big HP stat with regeneration stat? Can apply debuffs and/or ailments? She applies ailments to herself so that's about it. That curse of Vlad Tepes is probably the thing that would not make her a tank. She applies poison and paralysis to herself. Sure Tenshi has stat of enlightenment which applies heavy and paralysis, but she doesn't poison herself. That kind of defeats the purpose of being a tank. Kasen has a lower HP growth but higher DEF and MND growth than Meiling, but are you gonna use her as a tank? No, she's gonna be a bulky DPS. Not saying it's impossible, with the right support she could be a good tank but, why would you use her as a tank when you have other specifically designed tanks who can support themselves without that much need for help? Point is, a lifesteal passive wouldn't make Meiling useless (if that what was you were implying)

Also, I see no reason to nerf Aya. She's fine the way she is. Sure she can move twice or even three times before everyone else, is that a bad thing? Her offensive potential isn't exactly that high, and she's mono-wind too. Plus, she'd run out of mana really fast too. (I've experienced that a few times) I think Suwako does need some tweaking, fix some of her passives. Beat Down actually sounds cool imo. Guts Suwako doesn't sound very Suwakoish. Maybe something similar to it?

Also, I beileve Kokoro would be too new to be put in LoT2. HM didn't come out that long ago. She would certainly be cool though with her mask concept.
I don't think Kasen is "too good". She just outclasses Remi. Remi needs to have a niche that seperates her from Kasen. I remember reading earlier about making Spear ignore defense, that seems like a good alternative. Also maybe get rid of the paralysis part of Curse of Vlad Tepes, I know it's a very good buff and all, but getting poisoned and paralyzed? Not a good combo. I think it's worth and all but still. Just one of the other, or a different ailment would be good. Maybe Poison and Heavy? Having one more spell wouldn't be too bad imo. Misreable Fate seems like the likely choice. But maybe one more spell might make her too good... hm.

[Dodging_Rain]

I was thinking replacing Last Fortress with Eyes that Perceive Reality (When ____ attacks or is attacked by an enemy with stat buffs, damage is calculated as if enemy's buffs are non-existant) and Mental Concentration with Piercing Attack(Against enemies with extremely high defenses, some defense-ignoring damage will still go through. ) , making her attacks very reliable regardless if enemies buff themselves and/or have ridiculously high def.  I was thinking Encounter with a Formidable Foe but combined with majesty might cause her to constantly passively self-buff herself out of control.

Speaking of comparing Remilia to Meiling, I'm going to see what happen if I make Remilia a healer and see how that goes (current profession is monk).  I'll report back after the results.  It's not the craziest idea that I thought of.

Edit 1: Question, aside from the stat up and boss level restriction, what else is different about hard mode?

[ZXNova]

I was thinking replacing Last Fortress with Eyes that Perceive Reality (When ____ attacks or is attacked by an enemy with stat buffs, damage is calculated as if enemy's buffs are non-existant) and Mental Concentration with Piercing Attack(Against enemies with extremely high defenses, some defense-ignoring damage will still go through. ) , making her attacks very reliable regardless if enemies buff themselves and/or have ridiculously high def.  I was thinking Encounter with a Formidable Foe but combined with majesty might cause her to constantly passively self-buff herself out of control.

Speaking of comparing Remilia to Meiling, I'm going to see what happen if I make Remilia a healer and see how that goes (current profession is monk).  I'll report back after the results.  It's not the craziest idea that I thought of.

I like the replacing Last Fortress being replaced idea, but not Mental Concentration. Mental Concentration synergizes with her Majesty passive, allowing her to stay in and then sustain her mana while buffing her every stat every turn. Maybe replace Last Fortress with Piercing attack instead. I mean, Last Fortress is nice and all vs. those really evil bosses that kill everything (like certain strengthened/extra bosses), but piercing attack is more useful at all points of the game. Though Last Fortress just sounds really cool for Remi. (You killed my gatekeeper, my maid, my magician, and my sister, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO GO THROUGH ME BEFORE YOU TAKE THIS MANSION) Eyes that perceive reality sounds nice and all, but it doesn't seem like a Remi skill imo. Maybe it's better than what I think. Also, I think there is someone with Majesty and Encounter with a formidable opponent, was it Yuuka? Or maybe it's actually no one, I don't remember.

[Dodging_Rain]

Correct, Yuuka has both except for the fact that she's tied with being the 5th slowest and does not have a self-buff spellcard so is not able to take advantage of it as heavily even with a fast delay flower shot.  Remi has a decent delay on Gungnir and make herself very fast with monk and piercing thrust (not Aya speed, not THAT fast, but definitely hits harder).

[Yookie]

Correct, Yuuka has both except for the fact that she's tied with being the 5th slowest and does not have a self-buff spellcard so is not able to take advantage of it as heavily even with a fast delay flower shot.

Yuuka actually does take advantage of "Encounter with a formidable foe" in a big way since she has Extra Attack. She is usually able to keep her buffs at around 70% or so without a tactician on the field.

But about Remi: She does work really well in a team that has some more SDM characters but lacks utility. This makes it so that you have to construct situations around using her during bossfights but successfully doing so doesn't really pay of too much since, i.e. the Yakumo's just wreck everything if you get Ran to first buff everyone a little bit, then take out Chen and Yukari, let Ran concentrate to buff Chen and then have her and Yukari go to town with Shikigami+ and Flight of Idaten.
Remi isn't weak or anything but rather impractical to use and everything she does right now has somebody else who can do it as well or better than her.
A decent and thematically fitting buff for her could be that for Remilia (and only for her) the SDM bonus is still active at half strength for members that are in the team but not active. This way you could reasonably have all 5 and play Patchouli and Flan in the hit & run style that they need to be played in. It would also open up more possible ways to build Sakuya since right now she is pushed into the supporting/bulky niche to be able to provide the SDM buff since everyone else bar Meiling and Remilia herself isn't capable of staying in.

So I've been trying to take out the Strengthen Bosses, (...)

Another one that is rather easy to beat would be the "Memorized Knowledge" but only if you have someone that is capable of a) surviving its attack and b) fast enough to switch in and out two characters before it attacks again.
Someone like Komachi would work. (iirc Parsee doesn't since what it uses is somewhat Mind piercing). In the end this strategy requires only 3 people of which 1 is the one taking the hit, 1 has to heal her up and a 3rd one deals damage. I can recommend Rumia with Demarcation or about anyone with strong physical Dark/Physical moves. You'll have to try out a little to figure out the timing for when you have to switch out again and how often you can attack.

That Plant thing that was originally around Meiling (Jungle's Demonic Eye) is also rather manageable if you have enough damageoutput to regularly kill its spawns. If not then don't bother because they will just heal it up and wreck your team. Utsuho does number on it and can take its hits well enough.

Don't bother with the Magatama & Mirror for now. They are evil.

The rest I don't remember too well so I can't really say anything about those. What always helps is to just repeatedly try the fight, see what attacks the boss uses and equip the proper resistances.

[Leerius]

Wow.... 48 characters in one huge boss battle ?
Can't wait to start over from scratch and use various characters instead of only the op ones aha.

[Nerv-Faktor]

If you made her a tank, she wouldn't do so well. She doesn't really have the qualities of a tank, but like I said before, bulky DPS. Does she sustain herself really well from getting hurt? Like she gets nuked and refill herself to full kind of hurt? (and unless Remi is Aya fast, she ain't gonna be spearing enough to fill herself to full) Can heal others? A big HP stat with regeneration stat? Can apply debuffs and/or ailments? She applies ailments to herself so that's about it. That curse of Vlad Tepes is probably the thing that would not make her a tank. She applies poison and paralysis to herself.

I think you're massively underrating Curse of Vlad Tepes as a defensive buff here.
If I'm not mistaken you can still prevent the self inflicted poison with decent posion resistance in LoT2 and having your tanks highly resistant to status is beneficial anyway. Then it becomes a great ability for tanking. Remilia naturally has very high defensive stats and buffing those up with Curse of Vlad Tepes makes her really durable. You don't need the hp recovery other tanks might have when you take considerably less damage than they do in the first place.

Though I mostly agree that she's meant as a bulky dps and also better at that role.

I'm also still unsure if buffing Remilia wouldn't make her too good in boss battles. Her usefulness is very limited in random encounters, but it was like that in LoT1 too. Shes meant for boss battles and that's where she shines. She has high stats and her passives (like majesty) and selfbuff amplify those already high stats. Once she reaches a certain point she's very durable and deals good damage very fast and often due to her high speed and Spears reasonable delay. 
If you buff her stats or Spear's formula she might end up handily outclassing Kasen instead, at least in bossbattles. Though I guess that might not necessarily be a bad thing since Remilia's usefulness would still mostly be limited to boss battles. If she's only useful for one thing she should be one of the best choices for that.
I'm also against giving her a multitarget attack, that would make Remilia and Kasen just too similar. Diversity is good.

[Ghaleon]

Thats my point, like i said, *if* she comes across as tanky as she was in lot1, maintaining her defensive buff up will mean she WILL take 0s most of the time from bosses, a which point what DOES china have over her i she could self-heal with her attack?

Incidentally everyone said how bad she was as a def build in lot1 but i preferred her that way, and completed the gMe numerous times with her often being mvp  at level ranges lower than the norm. Note i didnt use her as a first slot tank, but a nuke still. But one that can always be out fighting that doesnt even need heals in slot 2 unless the boss uses something that is generally meant to 1shot anybody remotely less tanky than tank build reimu (pretty sure everyone mader like that but whatever).

Someone said by making her a monk is good and puncturing thrust hits harder and faster... This is actually auite disturbing. Basically gung's formula must not be very good at all it a subclass nuke that focuses on speed over power out-does it. Even if it was a power oriented class spear should fare better imo given ITS HER ONLY DAMN ATTACK AND IS SINGLE TARGET. I mean if you have only 1 attack in the game and everyone else has up to 5 wouldnt you expect it to be good? Like... Better than something everyone else can get anyway in addition to theirs? Gosh.

I agree about not wanting a multi target though.

[ZXNova]

@ Nerv-Faktor I was never underrating her Curse of Vlad Tepes as a defensive buff. I never mentioned that she couldn't take hits. I was just pointing out her lack of utility.  Which is something that (I believe) every tanky character should have. If they have no utility, then their damage should make up A LOT for it. From which, Remi might be able to do so.

@ Ghaleon Meiling has a defense buffing aura, gets bonus damage reduction from being in the 2nd slot (and speed that doesn't work for some reason), heals herself very well (and it scales with her damage), can heal/cleric others, does fairly moderate amount of damage, has a very low cost + atb usage spell for [insert tactics]. I haven't played LoT1, but from what you were saying, Remi sounds like she was "too" tanky. I think it would just depend on the bosses you're up against really. If the boss has really high armor, Remi would probably only be able to scratch it barely, and then not really contribute except for being a fast switcher and tanking hits really well. This is why I don't think Remi would outclass Meiling in tanking. In that same boss fight, Meiling can heal herself, cleric + heal others, and use her brilliant light gem in order to switch people quickly and such while taking hits just as well as her esp. with an Enchanter Reimu on the side.

If Remi got a buff to her Spear, I believe it would make her really good in boss battles, but I don't think it'd make her outclass Kasen. Like, it'd be kind of a 50/50 thing depending on the boss. Does the boss have moderate/low armor and is weak to wind/dark/nature? Does the boss have low terror/paralysis/debuff resistance? Use Kasen. Does the boss have really high armor, weak to physical attacks, and has high atb usage attacks? Use Remi. (Assuming her Spear got defense ignoring properties or if she got piercing attack) That's at least how I think it would be.

Yeah, maybe she doesn't need a multi target spell. Maybe a 2nd single target spell? Or just make tweaks to her spear and/or passive skills?

[Dodging_Rain]

Puncturing Thrust actually does a bit less damage than Gungnir, element assuming neutral for both.  I did 13k with Gungnir and 10k with Puncturing Thrust to a Crimson Beast in the temperature puzzle area which would equate to similar DPS.  However, thrust also constantly augments your speed and considering Remilia gets stronger with every turn with Majesty and SDM, this synergizes with her pretty well.  What is worrisome is that she can be able to buff herself decently by spamming Thrust up to her Curse of Vlad Tepes  and that spell card doesn't buff speed.  (now that I think about it, why does Kasen's spellcard also buff her speed and remi's doesn't?)

One thing I did note about thrust vs gungnir is that thrust is less effective on enemies with higher def.  In a subsequential battle vs Yukari.  I did twice as much damage to her with Gungnir than with thrust so the latter is probably just going to be a ramping up attack. 

Going to retry the battle with Healer remi next.  Actually just finished.  Geez, Remi is healing for 6k and enough to even give Komachi a huge recovery.  Now if Remi specced into HP she is pretty damn tough.

[Ghaleon]

Im actually thinking of strategist remi because that passive will reduce how fast vlad wears off, and majesty will be able to stack higher (it wesrs off like normal buffs right? Im not sure).

But yeah i wasnt really wanting monk myself cuz fast attacks makes her vlad buff wear off sooner, so i was thinking warrior for similar reasons too. Different element to work with, more general power, etc

[ZXNova]

(now that I think about it, why does Kasen's spellcard also buff her speed and remi's doesn't?)

It might be due to the boss battle you have in LoT2 Where if you kill Sakuya first, Remi buffs all her stats except speed, while if you kill Remi first, Sakuya only maxes her out her speed. A sort of contrast I guess?

[Dodging_Rain]

Im actually thinking of strategist remi because that passive will reduce how fast vlad wears off, and majesty will be able to stack higher (it wesrs off like normal buffs right? Im not sure).

But yeah i wasnt really wanting monk myself cuz fast attacks makes her vlad buff wear off sooner, so i was thinking warrior for similar reasons too. Different element to work with, more general power, etc

That might be more sound than monk.  I already spec'ed her out on monk and into healer and put her into healer since her HP is pretty stellar and can serve as a secondary tank if needed or be a very solid second rank attacker/healer. 

And yes, Majesty is a buff.

It might be due to the boss battle you have in LoT2 Where if you kill Sakuya first, Remi buffs all her stats except speed, while if you kill Remi first, Sakuya only maxes her out her speed. A sort of contrast I guess?

Is the game implying that you should keep those two together?  I wonder.

[Serela]

Is the game implying that you should keep those two together?  I wonder.

Well, the game DOES give you a passive skill that buffs their stats when they're together... >:V

Sakuya can be pretty amusing when she feels like extra attacking Lunar Clock several times. Since I found out that without other SDM members her offense is pretty meh, I specced her as a tank and gave her Enhancer so Lunar Clock extra attack shenanigans turns into a party heal. Now it's even more amusing! (The subclass buffs are decent utility sometimes.) I wonder how nice Killing Doll might become with it's formula if you had a big SDM bonus on her, though.

Also, Yuuka was brought up earlier; having both Majesty and Encounter With a Formidable Foe and Extra Attack makes her pretty amusing, too, as she casts Flower Shot 4 times and is then heavily buffed up and it never wears off. Plus it makes her two multitarget skill's special effects more noteworthy if you manage to proc Extra with them... but unreliable. It takes both the help of her self-buffing and some special attention to equips/stats to make her able to take a strong hit decently enough to be able to stay in, though.

[Dodging_Rain]

Well, the game DOES give you a passive skill that buffs their stats when they're together... >:V


Sakuya can be pretty amusing when she feels like extra attacking Lunar Clock several times. Since I found out that without other SDM members her offense is pretty meh, I specced her as a tank and gave her Enhancer so Lunar Clock extra attack shenanigans turns into a party heal. Now it's even more amusing! (The subclass buffs are decent utility sometimes.) I wonder how nice Killing Doll might become with it's formula if you had a big SDM bonus on her, though.

From the previous game, Killing Doll was pretty powerful if she was fulled buffed and it didn't had any SDM bonus.  If they kept the same kit for it where it has a huge attack and opponent defense modifier, then I would assume the same here.

Also, Yuuka was brought up earlier; having both Majesty and Encounter With a Formidable Foe and Extra Attack makes her pretty amusing, too, as she casts Flower Shot 4 times and is then heavily buffed up and it never wears off. Plus it makes her two multitarget skill's special effects more noteworthy if you manage to proc Extra with them... but unreliable. It takes both the help of her self-buffing and some special attention to equips/stats to make her able to take a strong hit decently enough to be able to stay in, though.

Wait, so Encounter with a Formidible Foe, Majesty, and Flowers do not Wither in Gensokyo will multi-proc with extra attack?

[Axel Ryman]

So far taking a few notes speedrunning this. This is what I got so far.

http://pastebin.com/FAPgd028


Mainly covers Floor 1 with a very brief runthrough of Floor 2. I need to look at a few more things through, so I might do an edit to Floor 1 to grab the Great Tree Leaf Bundle for Minoriko.


On another note, what is the trigger to start crafting in Nitori's shop? If it's Kogasa then...

[Serela]

Speedrunning the game was best in the version with the bugged Unify function where you gained infinite levelup bonuses and skill points B)

DodgingRain:I'm not sure how many of them stack with Yuuka's Extra Attack, but at the least, Formidable Foe does. Maybe sometime I should actually pay attention. Her damage does rise up pretty fast with the multiple procs... anyway, Sakuya's Killing Doll really has trouble actually piercing through the DEF of many bosses in this game enough to become a worthy use of your time and effort; and on many bosses where it would work alright, they resist DRK. Due to it's formula though, it's damage might spike sharply with 20~30% bonus attack from SDM. Might be better in the later parts of the game compared to where I am, too.

Although, in ThLaby1, it was only... passable-tier as a low-delay boss attack in comparison to other characters, with consideration of using The World. Since Sakuya wasn't too frail and had Lunar Clock, though, those helped a little; it wasn't completely terrible of an idea to use her for offense, but she just didn't output the damage most other characters could. The worst part for her was probably that SPD scaled pretty badly (so her speed buffs stop being worth a slot in the party, and eventually even the effort it took to use and upkeep them), and she was also supposed to have a niche use in Soul Sculpture ignoring enemy evasion.

[ZXNova]

So far taking a few notes speedrunning this. This is what I got so far.

http://pastebin.com/FAPgd028


Mainly covers Floor 1 with a very brief runthrough of Floor 2. I need to look at a few more things through, so I might do an edit to Floor 1 to grab the Great Tree Leaf Bundle for Minoriko.


On another note, what is the trigger to start crafting in Nitori's shop? If it's Kogasa then...

I don't quite remember, but I think it was reaching the 3rd floor.