Revolutionary Girl Utena Mafia - Night 3 (Student Council Thread)

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou why do I get a pass when I'm also self-admittedly too lazy to do shit?

I felt your argument against Rai was relatively consistent and a lot less questionable than other things people have done so far.

[Raikaria]

##Vote: Polaris

...

I completely forget he was in the game.

[BT]

PX I meant in the sense that you showed up a few hours before deadline without saying anything on the wagon after a lot has been happening.

Um Rai when someone says "PX's case" they mean the case made my PX, not the case made on PX. I don't think what you call 'misreps' is that bad and I had the same reaction as him to those two points I mentioned earlier so your reaction to his case bugged me a lot. Also the comment on forgetting Polaris makes no sense given he's been posting today, what's the point of that?

Rou: ...I'm kind of dumb and forgot to consider your going after Dan later on despite mentioning it myself. Though still, why did you call the Dan wagon questionable? That still sticks out like a sore thumb.

Prims why is PX's sheeping different from normal sheeping?

[BigBangMeteor]

I wouldn't mind lynching PX because all of his posts have been bad and he was misrepping Raikaria pretty hard last phase, but at the same time, I have never really seen a game where PX has been active. Serela normally makes a lot more scumhunting effort even if his logic or reads aren't that good, and here he's just posting a lot and not saying anything. Last phase he was super willing to lynch NNR off just one post. Not only has he not revoted the slot today, he hasn't looked at any of Polaris's posts or anything.

I don't particularly think Raikaria is scum. His posts just read like a lot of effort.

[Polaris]

huh what, can I have a comparison of me with Serela?  He's taken more or less the same stance as me (if not worse) so I want to know what you think about him.

Note:  This is not me suspecting Serela, it is me questioning huh what's  life choices.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Though still, why did you call the Dan wagon questionable? That still sticks out like a sore thumb.

I meant that NNR's reasoning on that wagon was questionable and generally accepted as misrep from all parties involved. I still didn't like Dan but a lot of what NNR said about him was just plain untrue.

[Shadoweh]

Hmm. I thought there'd be more then a page of today all things considered. Seeing as Sky P was Saionji, I consider this MISSION FUCKING ACCOMPLISHED.

I don't think I lurked that hard yesterday? It was only 48 hours, it's not like it needs 500 posts. Rairai you should really remember what I've done seeing as I helped start the not-you wagon. <_< Just a quick look at yesterday shows really weird pressure on Rai because he wasn't compromising on vote choice. I am slightly confident in starting questioning here.

##Vote: PX

PX, you thought Rai was being scummy yesterday, so why are you voting based on 'just sheepan'?
Rou, What was with the yelling at Rai yesterday for promoting no-lynch, that's clearly not what he was doing and you made him sound like a terrorist for lack of a better word.

People should stop talking about the announcement/public cop because you're narrowing down who sent the message. Rou asking for everyone's 'opinions' on it is kind of shameful.

[Shadoweh]

##Vote: PX I am super good at things before I run out the door okay bye

[SB]

Sky, I know you flipped town, but keeping reasons for you suspicions to yourself is not townie at all. Your play kind of reminds of this guy who joined a game I hosted and then tunnelled another townie (despite the fact that he was probably playing the best game I've ever seen him play) and refused to give any reasons at all till they were lynched and generally got everyone annoyed. Don't be that guy.

Wavering on my Raikaria suspicion a bit, the slip Rou pointed out makes him seem townie, although I should reread him at some point. Not tonight though. His readspost actually bugs me because the majority of them is THEY ARE LURKING I AM WATCHING THEM or weird meta stuff.

I don't like Serela's "least helpful in RVS" vote on PX, it just seems fabricated because nobody really did townie stuff in RVS, although PX's slot's been weak on the whole and I don't really have a lot to say on him that hasn't been already. I would lynch him I guess?

I'm pretty sure I said this before, but Rou: why call out ActionDan for going along blindly with Dormio's plan? There were four others who did it as well and I don't see you pressing them for it. I also don't like how you said that Raikaria was "slightly tunneling you" when the game was barely out of RVS and only having a single suspicion is reasonable, and BBM was hard tunneling Paladin and admitting to it. What made BBM less bad? I also don't like his constant waffle on SkyPaladin, espcially when he switches to NNR when he seems to think that Paladin is a bad townie, but then switches back next post? I know NNR replaced out but you seemed to be implying that you thought that Sky was town, so why would you go back to the vote after that? His panic about scum getting two nightkills bugs me too, it just seems sort of forced and like he wants to hurry up the lynch. Opening the day with a BBM vote, who I don't really remember him talking about much, just seems opportunistic to me.

Bofh's opinion on Dan looks 90% stolen from one of Rou's old posts and his Paladin reasons aren't original either. The only other content he has is a one line gutread on Shadoeweh and that's not  much at all. Not happy with him. I don't like how Dan shows up just to argue against that though and then runs off again though.

BT's claiming comment on NNR bugs me a lot. Why would scum!NNR care so much about claiming if he could just claim VT? Subbing out with no time is something NNR would do as both alignments and the way you're pushing this as a way to dodge claiming bugs me. I expected to find more on him but I've still got nothing else but weird gut right now that makes me dislike him.
 
##Vote: Rou

[ActionDan]

Bofh's opinion on Dan looks 90% stolen from one of Rou's old posts and his Paladin reasons aren't original either. The only other content he has is a one line gutread on Shadoeweh and that's not  much at all. Not happy with him. I don't like how Dan shows up just to argue against that though and then runs off again though.

In case it wasn't clear I disliked Bofh's entire post.  I am voting him now over Polaris because of that added reason (that the wagon hop sucked)

[ActionDan]

if there is a reason to suspect BBM, it's because he's voting a townie right now.  And I feel like he should know better.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou, What was with the yelling at Rai yesterday for promoting no-lynch, that's clearly not what he was doing and you made him sound like a terrorist for lack of a better word.

People should stop talking about the announcement/public cop because you're narrowing down who sent the message. Rou asking for everyone's 'opinions' on it is kind of shameful.

Rai's wording of 'I am even willing to hold the hostage here' came across to me as him basically being willing to go to any extreme to not move from Paladin and seemed a little TOO forceful to actually help.

Also I have never played a game with this announcer/cop role before. I wasn't sure if there was precedent so I was wondering what the typical reaction to an announcement like this was. Personally I see no sign that it's not some sort of scumrole playing mindgames.

Ninja'd by SB: OK, let's break this down one part at a time.
-Why did I suspect Dan for going along with the plan? Because he became extremely agitated and reactionary when people started to look in his direction. That in conjunction with mindlessly fulfilling Dormio's win condition got me cautious.
-What made Rai worse than BBM? The retraction of his vote in 115 without trying to make another case read to me as scum trying to cover their tracks after being called out.
-Why did I go for Sky in spite of my earlier townread? Several reasons, primarily feeling like a jerk for voting someone who had to replace (NNR). The Sky/Dan scumpair also made more sense with each post the pair made defending each other, and that late in the day it didn't seem reasonable to get a case on someone like Rai.
-Why did I go for BBM at the start of D2? After the Sky wagon I wanted to put pressure on the early pushers. I didn't think the case on bofh would gain speed so hastily (I remember him having a bizarre ability to do really scummy shit and never get called out for it) so I wanted to poke at someone else and see how they'd respond. His answer more or less answered my questions and I'm now getting a decent townread off of him.

Dan - Exactly what meta-read has you so convinced Serela is town?

BT is nagging at me for reasons I can't quite put words to. Think I need a reread.

[Polaris]

BT's claiming comment on NNR bugs me a lot. Why would scum!NNR care so much about claiming if he could just claim VT? Subbing out with no time is something NNR would do as both alignments and the way you're pushing this as a way to dodge claiming bugs me. I expected to find more on him but I've still got nothing else but weird gut right now that makes me dislike him.

SB could you point to a specific post regarding this? I can't seem to find what you're referring to.

[Polaris]

bofh (2): Polaris, ActionDan
Raikaria (2): BT, PX
Serela (1): BigBangMeteor
PX (3): Raikaria, Roukan, Shadoweh
Polaris (1): huh what
Roukan (1): SB

7 to lynch.

I feel like almost the entire game has implied that they don't mind lynching PX at this point and I feel just a little bit uneasy about it. Like, even I think PX is kinda scummy, but if everyone's in agreement then scum are undoubtedly taking part in this PX lynch mob which is where my paranoia kicks in.

[BT]

Rai's comment on Zak doesn't mean all that much because (1) it's a really easy "townslip" to fake and (2) it's just as 'weird' for town to ignore the flip. Rai isn't the sharpest player but I don't think he's an airhead either. Thinking about it... It still means Rai must have faked the slip to be scum (or be a gigantic airhead) which is acceptably likely but getting to that point where I'm assuming too much at a time. This is also the first time in forever I have to wrestle with people I think are town on a strong scumread so I'm starting to get out of my comfort zone here.

I don't like that Shadoweh starts off questioning people who pushed Raikaria when her own stance on the wagon wasn't defined until now that it "had weird pressure on it" which also avoids giving a read on Rai himself. Her vote isn't that strong at all so it reads like she rushed some exposition for it.

SB: Scum NNR would care about not claiming because people don't want to lynch people who haven't claimed. It wasn't even something I was going to push hard but I was just ticked off at no claims and that comment was the result. Anyway I don't get some of your points. Why is Rou voting BBM opportunistic? And why would Dan showing up to argue against a post you agreed to dislike and then "run off" be scummy? These are just wrong.

I can answer the question on Serelameta. I think when Serela's scum and having a hard time with reads he struggles and it's obvious whereas here he doesn't have reads but he's still reasonable.

My reads have kind of scrambled so I'm just going to state my priorities. Rou's responses have cleared up the -big- itches I had there so I'm not really interested in that now. I'm getting less comfortable about Rai even though I still think he's scum and I'm wondering if there's enough support for the wagon at all, but all the alternatives seem even weaker. I GUESS it would be Polly because he hasn't really convinced me otherwise. I'm not really interested in the PX wagon though it's a "disinterest" not a "disagreement" because it's not like I townread PX over his <5 posts but I still find myself shying away from it. bofh would also be an annoying compromise to make because :lurk:  though it's better than nothing. It's feeling really empty in here.

[SB]

1. Why did I suspect Dan for going along with the plan? Because he became extremely agitated and reactionary when people started to look in his direction. That in conjunction with mindlessly fulfilling Dormio's win condition got me cautious.
2. What made Rai worse than BBM? The retraction of his vote in 115 without trying to make another case read to me as scum trying to cover their tracks after being called out.
3. Why did I go for Sky in spite of my earlier townread? Several reasons, primarily feeling like a jerk for voting someone who had to replace (NNR). The Sky/Dan scumpair also made more sense with each post the pair made defending each other, and that late in the day it didn't seem reasonable to get a case on someone like Rai.
4. Why did I go for BBM at the start of D2? After the Sky wagon I wanted to put pressure on the early pushers. I didn't think the case on bofh would gain speed so hastily (I remember him having a bizarre ability to do really scummy shit and never get called out for it) so I wanted to poke at someone else and see how they'd respond. His answer more or less answered my questions and I'm now getting a decent townread off of him.

1. It was more of a "why is Dan following the plan worse than 4 other people", which you did actually address but why is blindly following the plan scummy, considering that he would've known Dormio wasn't scum and could've risked activating a powerful town role or something?
2. Okay, that works.
3. Subbing out, alright. I don't really agree with the rest of your reasoning but it's more of a preference thing I guess.
4. So basically, it was a reaction test?

@BT
Okay, the NNR thing makes sense to me now.
Rou voting BBM seemed opportunistic because BBM pushed Paladin hard and then they flipped town, but it's possible that he was just a townie who made a mistake instead.
What I meant was that Dan only seemed to show up to defend himself when he got pressured, and then disappeared without contributing much other than his defense.

[FinnKaenbyou]

1. It was more of a "why is Dan following the plan worse than 4 other people", which you did actually address but why is blindly following the plan scummy, considering that he would've known Dormio wasn't scum and could've risked activating a powerful town role or something?

The problem there was more his attempt afterwards to say things like 'randomly activating roles like this is good for town!' when it totally isn't.

Also in spite of a reread I'm not finding anything to back up that gut feel I had about BT earlier. I guess the main thing is just that we really don't see eye to eye on Rai but that's not anywhere near an actual case.

I feel like almost the entire game has implied that they don't mind lynching PX at this point and I feel just a little bit uneasy about it. Like, even I think PX is kinda scummy, but if everyone's in agreement then scum are undoubtedly taking part in this PX lynch mob which is where my paranoia kicks in.

Perhaps, but it's also possible that scum just doesn't have a good way to defend his actions and trying too hard would expose them en masse after the PX flip. If people act scummy, they should be lynched - it doesn't help if we second guess ourselves like this.

Finally, ALICE WHERE ARE YOU SERIOUSLY THIS ISN'T FUNNY ANYMORE.

[Serela]

There's a point where your scumbuddies are too scummy to bother defnnding- all you can do at that point is push a different wagon harder. Anyway, trying to sort out opinions on people to find a lynching priority somewhere in it, because I still don't know who in the world I'd actually want to lynch so I'm gonna have to one-by-one it.

I wouldn't mind a PX lynch, because sheeping (on both my end and his >:V) but I'm trying to look for something I actually have more :care: about. I'd probably reread PX some if I was actually going to vote him right now, so I could at least chime in with "I agree x y and z is bad" instead of just z.

SB/bofh slots are high enough lurk for nothing to be gleamed, SB replaced in late d1 though and bofh is... well, bofh has a reputation of doing this >_> I'd frown more at the bofh wagon if all the wagons I'd be okay with aren't all also lurker wagons. No, I don't think any kind of reliable read can be gotten off his single d1 post, no matter who you are and how much you do or don't like it. I guess pressure votes are fine, but he'll either appear and make a post with the potential to 160 his slot status or he'll get dealt with by the mod (his second prod is less then an hour away), so votes there pretty meh IMO

Okay, so now I need to think about Shadoweh/Prims/Polly. And maybe BBM. I guess I should glance at Dan too. I'll "Get This Post Out There" and start on that.

[Shadoweh]

Rai's wording of 'I am even willing to hold the hostage here' came across to me as him basically being willing to go to any extreme to not move from Paladin and seemed a little TOO forceful to actually help.

Also I have never played a game with this announcer/cop role before. I wasn't sure if there was precedent so I was wondering what the typical reaction to an announcement like this was. Personally I see no sign that it's not some sort of scumrole playing mindgames.

I find that when someone is willing to hold the game hostage for their own crazy stunts that mindset comes from town though. I mean, I agree with you it was an extreme move, I just don't see the jump from that to him being a scumbag.

The only ones with experience with announcers are BBM, Prism and SB I think. I can see why you'd be worried about an evil scum messenger though! Unless Dan suddenly becomes a lynch target again I wouldn't worry about it.

HI SERELA ARE YOU GOING TO THINK ABOUT LYNCHING ME BECAUSE YOU KNOW I LOVE PUNCHING YOU REPEATEDLY

[Raikaria]

Rai's comment on Zak doesn't mean all that much because (1) it's a really easy "townslip" to fake and (2) it's just as 'weird' for town to ignore the flip. Rai isn't the sharpest player but I don't think he's an airhead either. Thinking about it... It still means Rai must have faked the slip to be scum (or be a gigantic airhead) which is acceptably likely but getting to that point where I'm assuming too much at a time.

This ain't the first time I've made that error BT.

Rairai you should really remember what I've done seeing as I helped start the not-you wagon. <_<

I know but you hardly actually contributed anything; or did anything of note D1. Hence I am still suspicious. Although your D2 is seeming more like your normal self; and thus is alleviating my suspicions.

Just something about your D1 made me stop and go 'This isn't the Shadoweh I know'.

On the topic of my hostage statement; I thought I made it clear that I meant I wouldn't move in a swing vote scenario unless I absolutely had to do so. I'm not the best at wording things; and I wanted to make my post sound like a threat to help encourage votes on Sky in the first place; since I wanted Sky lynched because he was not being town in any way; shape or form. [To the degree that I will likely bring this fact up post-game]

And can we stop bringing up 115? If you don't realize; I also state in 115 that it is midnight and I will make a post when I wake up. Which I did. Please consider the fact that I do not live in NA like most of you. How many of you would trust yourself to form a coherent case at midnight GMT; being aware that while you sleep there would be a lot of developments that may change your mind when you wake up in the American area? Forming a case at my local time in 115 would have been a waste of time.

Still waiting for PX to do something that actually looks town.

[Raikaria]

Actually; on the Shadoweh topic; in most games both me and Shadoweh is in; Shadoweh is scum. So maybe Shadoweh acting different from what I consider normal is a townread?  :wat:

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Proper response to announcements like these is to ignore them.

Is there a reason everybody is just kind of ignoring Polly today? NNR was a hot target yesterday too so it's weird. People voting bofh are just looking for the easiest route possible imo, especially since PX's D1 - D2 have been worse.

I don't have a problem with Serela. His posts look like town effort/thought process even if they're not objectively good.

I think it's weird how much people are ignoring me lmao. Like I know I'm town but usually you'd have Shadoweh going "HW why don't you care, are you scum???"

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I feel like almost the entire game has implied that they don't mind lynching PX at this point and I feel just a little bit uneasy about it. Like, even I think PX is kinda scummy, but if everyone's in agreement then scum are undoubtedly taking part in this PX lynch mob which is where my paranoia kicks in.

Or scum just don't want to bother defending their sinking buddy.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

TBH I guess PX is drawing more heat than bofh now so what I just said isn't really relevant. <_<

Prims why is PX's sheeping different from normal sheeping?

Missed this question; it's buddying and encouraging MS-esque circlejerking.

[BigBangMeteor]

Serela, if an accurate read can't be gotten off Bofh's one post, no matter how bad it was, then why were you voting NNR for most of D1 based on one post? And you brought up repeatedly how you'd rather lynch him over Sky; it wasn't just a one-off thing.

The only game that I've played with scum Serela was Town, and he was pretty inactive that game, but what I do remember that made me think he was scummy was that even when he did post, most of it wasn't scumhunting effort.

Polaris, if you don't really like that everybody seems to be in agreement about PX, then where else would you vote?

[Serela]

BBM:IMO NNR's one post was far more actively scummy, and upon finishing my reread I want to just say the scumteam is PX/NNR(Polly) and either bofh or SB (because they're what's left and unreadable right now). Of course, I don't seriously believe I've caught the entire scumteam off the 48 hour d1 (lulz) but I really don't want to lynch any of the other players at present.

Also if it helps, in a 48 hour d1, nnr only having one serious post isn't that weird >> It's only towards the very end that you can start going "wait where's nnr why hasn't he posted". Attacking bofh d1 after his post wouldn't have been weird, and at the start of d2 it wasn't -that- weird either I guess, but at this point it's at possible-mod-intervention level lurking, and someone having their vote sitting there is just bluh.

It's mostly bluh though because "out of all these players you're sitting on the person with a single post who clearly can't be lurking simply as a means of scum coasting?" And, well, yeah, the part where I don't think bofh's post is anywhere near weird enough to be distinctly scummy. NNR's is still the worst thing I see out of all of d1, considering SkyPaladin was so out there it just didn't even look like scum anymore. PX gets second runner up for being overall highly meh all game.

Anyway, Polly replacing NNR hasn't bothered me with my desire to vote the slot, after seeing what Polly's been doing. Polly tests waters on my slot and gives a soft defense of the PX wagon, both of which aren't bad for town to do by any means but I can definitely see where Polly/PX scumteam would want to be doing these things. Oh, wait, wrong order of annoucements- those two things I just said are the super weak reasonings that aren't seriously part of my case. >_>; The actual part of the case is Polly voting bofh because lurker who jumped on the lynched townie, and then not really doing much townie-inspiring afterwords. Combined with what I think is the scummiest post in D1 from the first player of the slot, I still want to lynch the slot. Lynching PX is okay too though for reasons other people have stated that I'm too lazy to word myself because I'm not voting him.

Result on everyone else I didn't mention in my first sentence of this post- I have varying levels of townreads on everyone else except maybe Shadoweh.

##Vote Polaris

[Serela]

PX gets second runner up for being overall highly meh all game.

meant to fix this sentence and forgot; it's not just "meh" but people have pointed out things he did that seem misreppy or don't make sense with his previous stuff or something along those lines, etc

[Polaris]

I was going to say "obviously everyone is ignoring me because they all know I'm town in their hearts" and then Serela just voted me lol.

I never said PX was any more town because everyone is joining in, I'm just saying scum can easily say "let's lynch PX" (regardless of PX's alignment) so I'm just laying the foundations for a PX wagon investigation when it becomes necessary. It wasn't exactly necessary for 3+ people to respond with "obviously scum is bussing" since I'm not an idiot.

"Polly tests waters on my slot" Serela are you srs, it's like you didn't even read my post. I pressed in order to get further understanding on huh what's thought process for voting me because purely from a D2 standpoint Serela had done less than I did, and huh what's response tells me that he's just being :effort:

I don't see a problem with putting pressure on bofh for now, although honestly if he isn't showing up after this long then I'm wondering if there are extenuating circumstances.

[Serela]

I knew I should have backspaced the bad reasons out or at least put the warning that they were terrible beforehand instead of afterwords

[Polaris]

OH you took back the first part and there's an "actual part of the case" that I just sort of glossed over. Let's see here.

The actual part of the case is Polly voting bofh because lurker who jumped on the lynched townie, and then not really doing much townie-inspiring afterwords.

"not really doing much townie-inspiring afterwards"

"not really doing much townie-inspiring afterwards"