Author Topic: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!  (Read 194771 times)

Sungho

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #330 on: September 10, 2013, 02:33:38 PM »
Does the song no. 17 (Meiling) of this video even exist or it is just a fake one? If no, may I know the name of that song?
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmUf4RnWnzY
Title is 靴の音を、響かせて、その手を
In 凋叶棕's album 彩 , released in Reitaisei 9 .

Although I wonder how one can fake music.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #331 on: September 10, 2013, 03:12:47 PM »
In SoPM, someone says that Shou is currently the same type of being as Kanako. Kanako is a divine spirit (considered a type of youkai) who became a god, and would return to being a divine spirit if she lost all her faith.

Since people in Japan know what real tigers are like nowadays, it's likely that there's no longer anything sustaining Shou as a pseudo-tiger youkai, and her status as an avatar has become her main anchor to existence.
A divine spirit is not a kind of youkai. Probably. In the context of Kanako, it's supposed to distinguish her from the "myriad gods" which have no form prior to receiving faith. The implication is that she used to be human or something else and was deified. In the context of being compared to Shou, the impression I got was that both Kanako and Shou gather faith on behalf of someone else. Just like Suwako is the true god enshrined at the Moriya Shrine, Bishamonten is the true god worshiped at the Myouren Temple. Kanako is an "avatar" of Suwako in a strange sense.

While the bit about Shou's pseudo-tiger nature being unstable and not enough to sustain her as a youkai is explicitly true I don't think that makes her anything like Kanako. Suwako is the one who would disappear completely without faith.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #332 on: September 10, 2013, 03:32:05 PM »
Title is 靴の音を、響かせて、その手を
In 凋叶棕's album 彩 , released in Reitaisei 9 .

Although I wonder how one can fake music.

Sorry, what I mean is if that specific animated video shown (no.17) in the link exist or it was just a fake one.

Sagus

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #333 on: September 10, 2013, 03:32:18 PM »
But Kanako is explicitly refered to as being one of the gods of the Moriya Shrine; I think it's safe to assume that she's also enshrined there. The whole reason she went to Gensokyo was to keep gathering faith, after all, and since Suwako was fine with ceasing to be a god, there wouldn't be a reason for Kanako to want to get more faith if it wasn't for her herself.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #334 on: September 10, 2013, 03:39:49 PM »
But Kanako is explicitly refered to as being one of the gods of the Moriya Shrine; I think it's safe to assume that she's also enshrined there. The whole reason she went to Gensokyo was to keep gathering faith, after all, and since Suwako was fine with ceasing to be a god, there wouldn't be a reason for Kanako to want to get more faith if it wasn't for her herself.

Kanako is one of three gods at the shrine, counting Sanae too. But in the end it's the Moriya shrine and Suwako is the main god there. Kanako borrows Suwako's power to create miracles, and the faith goes mostly to Suwako. She's the boss, Kanako is the employee. The fact that Kanako is more proactive than Suwako and makes all the business decisions doesn't change who the owner of the shrine is.

Edit: Clearly Kanako gets some faith from her actions, but she's using the Moriya shrine to do so.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 03:41:31 PM by Clarste »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #335 on: September 10, 2013, 03:42:06 PM »
So, first and foremost, Kanako is a god and Shou most certainly isn't. I have yet to see anything special about the status of "avatar". Shou doesn't seem to have any unique features as a result of it. In the end, I still categorize her as a beast youaki.
Personally I always want to compare her to Okuu, seeing as both are linked very closely to a god without actually being that god. Sure, Okuu doesn't gather faith but at this point I'm kinda thinking that the Yagarasu just doesn't care what Okuu does with its power.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #336 on: September 10, 2013, 03:48:14 PM »
Okuu is a shrine. It's weird.

I think comparing them too closely is just going to confuse more than enlighten because Bishamonten is a Buddhist God, while Kanako and the rest are Shinto gods. Kanako made a brief comment about how she resembles Shou, but I'm sure that's only superficial. They're both aggressive faith-gatherers on behalf of their patrons. I absolutely would not read anything metaphysical into that comment. Shou is a beast-youkai and Kanako is a god.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #337 on: September 10, 2013, 03:49:10 PM »
I woudn't call  Suwako's status at the shrine as superior to Kanako's. There's no "boss" of the shrine. It works on division of tasks. Remember, Suwako was defeated by Kanako who took over her shrine during the Great Suwa War, but since she couldn't keep the Mishaguji at bay, she needed to keep Suwako around. If it wasn't for this setback, Kanako would probably kick Suwako out of her own shrine, but now they rely on each other.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 03:52:41 PM by Fonzi »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #338 on: September 10, 2013, 03:54:22 PM »
Kanako is one of three gods at the shrine, counting Sanae too. But in the end it's the Moriya shrine and Suwako is the main god there. Kanako borrows Suwako's power to create miracles, and the faith goes mostly to Suwako. She's the boss, Kanako is the employee. The fact that Kanako is more proactive than Suwako and makes all the business decisions doesn't change who the owner of the shrine is.

Edit: Clearly Kanako gets some faith from her actions, but she's using the Moriya shrine to do so.
But she defeated Suwako and stole the shrine. The only reason Suwako's still around is because they're friends (yeah, originally it was because the population and the Mishaguji didn't accept Kanako, but since the former aren't in the picture anymore, I'd guess that the latter doesn't really matter to Kanako). They run the thing together. The name of the thing doesn't really matter; it could've been kept because the region itself was called Moriya, or because Suwako wanted it to.

So, first and foremost, Kanako is a god and Shou most certainly isn't. I have yet to see anything special about the status of "avatar". Shou doesn't seem to have any unique features as a result of it. In the end, I still categorize her as a beast youaki.
She's explicitly stated to be a treasure youkai, though.

Her being as avatar means that she represents the god. What she says and do are considered to be Bishamonten's words and actions. That's why Nazrin was sent, to make sure Shou was being a good representative, and wasn't tarnishing Bishamonten's good name.

I imagine that being his avatar is also the only reason she can use the pagoda, but I'm not sure.

Personally I always want to compare her to Okuu, seeing as both are linked very closely to a god without actually being that god. Sure, Okuu doesn't gather faith but at this point I'm kinda thinking that the Yagarasu just doesn't care what Okuu does with its power.
Doesn't really work, I think; Shou is basically Bishamonten's "face" on the Myouren temple, while Okuu is a living shrine, which means that she actually has a part of the god inside her. As far as I can tell, other than possibly the pagoda, Shou doesn't have any physical/spiritual/divine/whatever connection to Bishamonten.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #339 on: September 10, 2013, 03:56:57 PM »
Kanako conquered the shrine but couldn't kick Suwako out because she lacked the power and authority to run the shrine herself. That is exactly the relationship I was referring to. Kanako lacks the authority to provide the necessary functions of the Moriya Shrine. Suwako is a required part of the operation, while Kanako isn't. She's a parasite living off of Suwako's shrine.

That doesn't mean she submits to Suwako though, and I never meant to imply that. Perhaps "boss" is the wrong word, but "owner" seems very appropriate. Kanako does not own the shrine. Her position is not equal to Suwako's. They seem to have forgiven each other over the centuries and become partners, but in the end it's still Kanako mooching off of Suwako, in exchange for handling the day to day business that Suwako doesn't care about. Kanako pays Suwako rent.

Edit: The Mishaguji are still very much a part of the shrine. They're how the shrine does anything at all. They dug the hole for the nuclear reactor, and they bestow the blessings and curses of the shrine.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 03:59:30 PM by Clarste »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #340 on: September 10, 2013, 04:02:04 PM »
Kanako conquered the shrine but couldn't kick Suwako out because she lacked the power and authority to run the shrine herself. That is exactly the relationship I was referring to. Kanako lacks the authority to provide the necessary functions of the Moriya Shrine. Suwako is a required part of the operation, while Kanako isn't. She's a parasite living off of Suwako's shrine.

That doesn't mean she submits to Suwako though, and I never meant to imply that. Perhaps "boss" is the wrong word, but "owner" seems very appropriate. Kanako does not own the shrine. Her position is not equal to Suwako's. They seem to have forgiven each other over the centuries and become partners, but in the end it's still Kanako mooching off of Suwako, in exchange for handling the day to day business that Suwako doesn't care about.

Edit: The Mishaguji are still very much a part of the shrine. They're how the shrine does anything at all. They dug the hole for the nuclear reactor, and they bestow the blessings and curses of the shrine.
Hm, true, that makes sense. Although I don't think it's because Kanako didn't have the power to run things, she just lacked the respect Suwako commanded. But it's the same result, in the end.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #341 on: September 10, 2013, 04:02:23 PM »
Kanako is a guest, but she is the one who gathers faith, because Suwako isn't even interested in it anymore. She needs Kanako just as much as Kanako needs her.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #342 on: September 10, 2013, 04:06:11 PM »
Kanako is a guest, but she is the one who gathers faith, because Suwako isn't even interested in it anymore. She needs Kanako just as much as Kanako needs her.

If she doesn't care, then she either wouldn't mind fading out of existence or she doesn't feel the need to do anything as long as Kanako is around. In either case, she doesn't need Kanako, since Kanako isn't doing anything she actually desires. Need is always relative to goals.

Oh, and in case there was any confusion, I don't think beast youkai and treasure youkai are mutually exclusive. Nazrin is also a beast/treasure youkai after all.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #343 on: September 10, 2013, 04:10:50 PM »
Oh, and in case there was any confusion, I don't think beast youkai and treasure youkai are mutually exclusive. Nazrin is also a beast/treasure youkai after all.
But if Shou can't even turn into her animal form anymore, there isn't much point in calling her a beast youkai. She doesn't even have any animal traits, like ears or a tail, like all other beast youkai do.

Hm. That makes me wonder if Nazrin has a mouse form.

Edit: Wait, where's stated that Nazrin is both? The fact that she finds treasure doesn't make her a treasure youkai. As far as I remember she's always refered to as a mouse youkai.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 04:14:43 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #344 on: September 10, 2013, 04:15:29 PM »
Like I said. Division of tasks. If Kanako wanted to, she'd be the sole goddess with no respect of the populace, unbable to keep curse gods from rampaging and Suwako would be a forgotten shrineless god. Sure, Suwako could live without Kanako's invasion, but rather than taking the lose/lose situation, the two decided to cooperate.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #345 on: September 10, 2013, 04:17:17 PM »
Like I said. Division of tasks. If Kanako wanted to, she'd be the sole goddess with no respect of the populace, unbable to keep curse gods from rampaging and Suwako would be a forgotten shrineless god. Sure, Suwako could live without Kanako's invasion, but rather than taking the lose/lose situation, the two decided to cooperate.
The thing is that there's no "lose" for Suwako, at least not anymore, so their current relationship really is more like Clastre said.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #346 on: September 10, 2013, 04:18:11 PM »
She has tigers stripes in her hair? I suppose it really depends on what you expect out of beast youkai. To me, it's more of an accident of origin. It doesn't really effect on their "powers". Heck, the crow tengu don't have any animal parts either, at least in game art. If they can hide they're wings most of the time, why are we assuming that Shou, who's explicitly trying to appeal to normal humans, wouldn't hide her beast parts?

And maybe you're taking "treasure youkai" too seriously as a term? Not everything is a taxonomic classification. I figured it was a description.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #347 on: September 10, 2013, 04:32:29 PM »
Welp, Kanako didn't have a shrine before the Suwa War and she managed just fine, so she technically doesn't need Suwako or her shrine either. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 04:36:21 PM by Fonzi »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #348 on: September 10, 2013, 05:17:54 PM »
Something I want to ask. Not really related to Touhou but anyway.

Are the major gods (Amaterasu, Izanagi, etc...) in Shinto form part of the 8 millions gods or are they different kind of kami (higher kami if you want).

Is this "Kotoamatsukami" (first gods which came into existence at the time of the creation of the universe) the oldest gods in Japan and if yes, is there any particular reason(s) why we heard so little about their existence as compare to Amaterasu or Izanagi?

- And finally, do those major gods (e.g. Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu) have the authority to command/give orders to those 8 millions gods (e.g Kanako and Sawako)?

Can Marisa even fly without her broom?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 05:45:52 PM by Biakmon »

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #349 on: September 10, 2013, 05:36:06 PM »
She has tigers stripes in her hair? I suppose it really depends on what you expect out of beast youkai. To me, it's more of an accident of origin. It doesn't really effect on their "powers". Heck, the crow tengu don't have any animal parts either, at least in game art. If they can hide they're wings most of the time, why are we assuming that Shou, who's explicitly trying to appeal to normal humans, wouldn't hide her beast parts?
Well, it's not like Tengu are beast youkai, but I see your point. Still, I feel that the fact that she can't turn into an animal anymore makes classifying her as a beast youkai nonsensical, seeing as this is one of their main characteristics.

And maybe you're taking "treasure youkai" too seriously as a term? Not everything is a taxonomic classification. I figured it was a description.
Meh, seems likely, the only time the term even appears is on Shou's SoPM profile (her offical one just says that her species is "youkai").

Something I want to ask. Not really related to Touhou but anyway.

Are the major gods (Amaterasu, Izanagi, etc...) in Shinto form part of the 8 millions gods or are they different kind of kami (higher kami if you want).
I don't think there's a distinction, no.

Is this "Kotoamatsukami" (first gods which came into existence at the time of the creation of the universe) the oldest gods in Japan and if yes, is there any particular reason(s) why we heard so little about their existence as compare to Amaterasu or Izanagi?
Maybe they just don't care about earthly affairs? Usually the greater creator deities in polytheistic mythologies don't really involve themselves too much with humanity.

Can Marisa even fly without her broom?
Yes. She uses the broom just because she thinks it wouldn't be right for a witch to fly around without one.
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #350 on: September 10, 2013, 06:28:45 PM »
Are the major gods (Amaterasu, Izanagi, etc...) in Shinto form part of the 8 millions gods or are they different kind of kami (higher kami if you want).
As I understand it "8 million gods" can refer to Shinto gods in general, or to ones that don't fit into a particular category. It's like the difference between saying "the people of this country" and "the king and people of this country" - the king is still a person, but he's excluded by context.
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Is this "Kotoamatsukami" (first gods which came into existence at the time of the creation of the universe) the oldest gods in Japan and if yes, is there any particular reason(s) why we heard so little about their existence as compare to Amaterasu or Izanagi?
Same reason you hear less about Uranus than you do about Cronus, and less about Cronus than you do about Zeus.
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- And finally, do those major gods (e.g. Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu) have the authority to command/give orders to those 8 millions gods (e.g Kanako and Sawako)?
I'd guess that they have the authority to make requests, but no one's obliged to follow them. It probably works the same way as the Imperial Court.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 06:34:50 PM by Prime32 »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #351 on: September 11, 2013, 07:36:30 AM »
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Welp, Kanako didn't have a shrine before the Suwa War and she managed just fine, so she technically doesn't need Suwako or her shrine either. 

Yes, Kanako doesn't need Suwako, strictly speaking. But if she wants to live in the Moriya shrine, she would need her. If she decides to not do so, then yes, she wouldn't need Suwako.
I think the whole point is that she cannot run the Moriya shrine without Suwako, which is why Suwako is the "owner" and Kanako is not.

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- And finally, do those major gods (e.g. Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu) have the authority to command/give orders to those 8 millions gods (e.g Kanako and Sawako)?

Suwako, definitely not, since she is a native god or something like that. Kanako, likely also not. Eirin likely outranks both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, but you don't see her ordering Kanako or Suwako around.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #352 on: September 11, 2013, 12:00:20 PM »

(Eirin likely outranks both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu), but you don't see her ordering Kanako or Suwako around.

May I know  in what term do you think that Eirin likely "outranks" both Tsukiyomi and Ameterasu?

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #353 on: September 11, 2013, 12:44:51 PM »
Eirin is implied to be Omoikane, who in some accounts is of the same "generation" of Izanami and Izanagi; if that's the case, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that she's higher is the divine ladder than Amaterasu and her brothers.

What we know for sure is that she's older than Tsukuyomi, and that he relied heavily on her when building the Lunar civilization. But if she outranks him or not is never really discussed. Amaterasu is implied to be his sister in Touhou as well, which, considering they were all born basically at the same time in the myths, would also make Eirin her elder.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 12:50:12 PM by Sagus »
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #354 on: September 11, 2013, 02:37:46 PM »
Rank seems like a strange way to look at it in the first place. This isn't a military and not all gods are on the same side anyway. Surely Tsukiyomi keeps a royal court of lesser gods at the Lunar Capital, or something like that, but even if he's the Lord of the Moon that only applies to gods that choose to live in his realm. Other gods can live wherever they want, and the Native Gods are implied to be actively opposed to the Heavenly Gods.

Eirin, as Omoikane, seems to be older than and respected by the other gods, including Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, but that doesn't mean she outranks them. They have no duty to listen to her orders. They just respect and trust her, so they follow her advice.

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #355 on: September 11, 2013, 07:32:28 PM »
Not to mention that Omoikane is basically the god of Knowledge/Wisdom. It makes sense that they ask and follow her advice, if you don't then you're probably against her in the first place.

As for the question about the Kami, I can't explain much but here's what I know.

There are considered to be three main variations of Kami, Amatsu-kami ("the heavenly deities"), Kunitsu-kami ("the gods of the earthly realm"), and the Ya-o-yorozu no kami (八百万の神, countless kami, "八百万" literally means eight million, though they meant it as "many". These classifications are not considered strictly divided, because of the ever-changing nature of Kami, but they are held as guidelines for grouping Kami.

In general, Amatsukami refers to kami residing in the Plain of High Heaven (Takamagahara), together with those that were born in Takamagahara but later descended to the land of Japan. The Kojiki discriminates five kami as existing in the heavens, namely Amenominakanushi no kami, Takamimusuhi no kami, Kamimusuhi no kami, Umashiashikabihikoji no kami, and Amenotokotachi no kami. These five it calls "separate kami of heaven" (kotoamatsukami). The term "separate heavenly kami" originates in Kojiki itself, which states, "The foregoing five kami are the separate heavenly kami." These five kami are characterized by the fact that they came into existence alone (hitorigami), and after coming into being, "hid" themselves. After them are just called Amatsukami. The main difference, as mentioned above, is that they were created or based from something.
Example of this group: Izanagi, Omoikane, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano-o, etc.

The Kunitsukami are earthly kami in Shinto tradition, and they also serve as earth spirits that protected humanity and provided good fortune (although it is known that kami in general were more like nature spirits, the kunitsukami are the closest to that). They once ruled over Japan until the Amatsukami (heavenly gods) expanded their influence. Though most of them are Native Gods/Spirits, a human can become a Kunitsukami. Okuninushi was a human if I'm not mistaken.
Example of this group: Sarutahiko, Okuninushi, Sukuna-Hitona, etc.
Spoiler:
Yes, I played too much Megaten

As for the Yaoyorozu no Kami(hey, the first link is Touhou, because why not?) are pretty much any Kami that came to being in the world, since virtually any thing may be kami, if it makes us feel the existence of supernatural or extraordinary power and impresses us with a sense of awe, regardless of whether it is "good" or "evil".
Taken from third volume of Kojikiden:
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In general, kami refers first to the manifold kami of heaven and earth we see in the ancient classics, and to the spirits (mitama) in shrines consecrated to the same. And it further refers to all other aweinspiring things?people of course, but also birds, beasts, grass and trees, even the ocean and mountains?which possess superlative power not normally found in this world. "Superlative" here means not only superlative in nobility, goodness, or virility, since things which are evil and weird as well, if they inspire unusual awe, are also called kami.
Example of this group: mountain gods, the god of rice fields, the god of toilet, god of kitchen and god of the rice grain...you know the drill. It's everything anyway!

From these, I'll put Kanako(since she came from Yamato, which are said to be descendant of gods and worked under the orders of Amaterasu) and Eirin into the Amatsukami, Suwako into the Kunitsukami, and that god of metal that Reimu summoned in WaHH into the Yaoyorozu.

Also, age doesn't really mean much to these kami. Take Amatsu-mikaboshi, he's even older than those Kotoamatsukami but is only considered a minor god, since he never do much anyway. So I think there's no reason for Kanako to follow Eirin's or even the Watatsukis' orders around. Kami are free to choose who to listen to and give their help. I think the reason Amaterasu helped her was just because she wants to.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 09:40:12 AM by monhan »

Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #356 on: September 12, 2013, 07:10:19 AM »
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Eirin, as Omoikane, seems to be older than and respected by the other gods, including Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, but that doesn't mean she outranks them. They have no duty to listen to her orders. They just respect and trust her, so they follow her advice.

Being higher rank than someone doesn't necessarily mean you can order them around. I just see Eirin as being in a higher divine status than Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, given which generation she is from.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #357 on: September 12, 2013, 08:40:53 AM »
Even in Greek mythology Titans are older than gods and they once ruled over everything. But look at them now. :P
Age =/= power.

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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #358 on: September 12, 2013, 10:42:33 AM »
Even in Greek mythology Titans are older than gods and they once ruled over everything. But look at them now. :P
Age =/= power.
That depends on the mythology. And it's not like creator or primeval gods tend to enter in conflict with the younger ones that much for us to see who'd win (Gaia and Ouranos never directly fought anyone, IIRC (the thing with the sickle was an ambush, it doesn't count)).
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Re: Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!
« Reply #359 on: September 13, 2013, 08:57:14 AM »
Will the questions/ans that will be asked to ZUN in that particular event (in September) be post in this site or somewhere else after the event?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 11:34:31 AM by Biakmon »