Miscellaneous Questions Thread 4 - Bring us your Questions!

[Sagus]

The only thing that he didn't write the script for is "Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth", and he still at least determinated where certain characters should appear and such, so yeah, that's complete nonsense.

[Tiamat]

If anything according to interviews Cuc posted about him in that ZUN updates thread, many other mangaka think he's a bit overly controlling with official Touhou works.

[cuc]

In terms of artwork, there are things ZUN enforce strict creative control (that caused people to find him overly controlling), and there are things he's completely hands-off about.

ZUN is very exacting about the introduction and establishment of new elements (new characters; important plot details such as Remilia's coffin on her bed; etc), character expressions, and the cameo appearances of existing characters (since these reflect their interpersonal relationship).

Everything else - things already established, he may leave to the artist. For example, the main artist of SoPM, Masakichi said he received absolutely no instruction about his artwork. Similarly, neither ZUN or Tasofro has given any instruction about the opening scroll of HM: its content is entirely decided by the artist himself.

In practice, the reliability of artwork varies, and is better judged case-by-case.

Example 1: Hirasaka Makoto is the only artist who ever asked ZUN about the exact height differences between all characters, making SaBND and OSP the most reliable source of character height. But even someone as careful about abiding to canon as him has taken liberties - his exterior design of SDM is completely invented by himself.

Example 2: Harukawa Moe apparently has had little to no exposure to Touhou before. This is the only possible explanation for the fact that her version of Marisa's home has nothing in common with the version from fighting games. Yet she had spent a lot of time together with ZUN and their editor designing Kosuzu's summer clothes.

[Tiamat]

Well, it's good that he's very exact about artwork regarding cameos due to the interpersonal relationships it could potentially portray, at least. I tended to rely on that assumption a lot of those when editting relationships in the Touhou wiki back in the day.

[Starxsword]

It's not talking about what Remilia does during this particular Spell Card. In this context, it simply explains her mindset. It's not stating that melee is better than danmaku as a fact, it states that Remilia thinks way. This is even shown in SSiB. Unless someone points out there's a mistake in translation of those lines. Do you see her ever use a melee attack in that card? I surely didn't.

My argument is to not take a spell card literally. It doesn't matter if she uses Danmaku or Melee attack in that specific card. The point was that the card states Melee > Danmaku as a fact.
As for deciding upon if it is Remilia's opinion or not, how do you know that? Can you not then argue that it is Reimu's opinion that her card makes her invincible?

Then again using Yorihime, a character who even ZUN refuses to put into any game due to how broken she is, as a comparison to Gensokyo's girls, is not going to have much weight in this argument. To her, summoning Gods may not be considered as breaking the rules or something that's too strong.  It's as if she was having a duel against 4 stage 1 bosses, or even weaker. 1 bomb enough to break the enemy spell.

Yorihime is too serious, so the main characters have no chance. Also do understand that both Yorihime and Toyohime are taught by Eirin, who alone, holds their current position as the moon's security force. I see nothing wrong with using Yorihime as an example, if we can use Eirin as an example.

If floating away from "anything and everything" includes consciousness too, then yes. But closed eyes don't necessarily mean she has to be unconscious. It's not the only card where she uses homing danmaku, so having her eyes open may not even be necessary. Several of Reimu's Spell Card activations in Hisoutensoku show her sprite with closed eyes during the spell's effect, not just during FN.

If doesn't cause her to go unconscious, that is even better, it means she is required to use energy. Like all other attacks, it takes energy.
My argument was that even if she goes unconscious, it will take energy, but if you think she doesn't, then that's better.

If this is true, then it contradicts the notion of powerful spells being allowed to be used right from the beginning. Every new battle in the games starts with both characters with no power. This power required to use Spell Cards is gained through hitting the enemy, grazing or getting hit. In other words, the battle needs to last for a while before anyone can activate a Spell Card.

It never says you can't use powerful spells in the beginning. Just because you cannot in a game, it does not mean a character in a story cannot. This is game play and story segregation, because it wouldn't be fun if everyone can start off with attacks that take half or all your life. It also makes for uninteresting story telling if a main character just begins a super powerful attack and one shots her opponent, unless of course, that was the point, like when they introduce a character and make her look badass.
For example, in the manga, Marisa starts off with a spell card right, then, goes straight into Final Spark. Remilia, on the other hand, was messing around and did not use any of her recognized attacks.

Someone said that in official materials not drawn by ZUN, he "doesn't police the creative control" and that one can outright ignore anything not drawn by him.

I disagree with him/her, as I doubt ZUN would let other people mess with official materials without his consent, but what do you think?

As the others have said, that's nonsense.

[Drake]

The point was that the card states Melee > Danmaku as a fact.
As for deciding upon if it is Remilia's opinion or not, how do you know that? Can you not then argue that it is Reimu's opinion that her card makes her invincible?

I disagree. Fantasy Nature's flavour text is a description and explanation. Scarlet Destiny's is explaining Remilia's preference, and the last phrase is just more on that. I wouldn't even necessarily translate 弾幕より直接格闘 as melee being better than danmaku; just "melee over danmaku".

Also the unconsciousness argument is silly and I'm not sure why you seem to think that the state of consciousness affects stamina used in an attack, nor why you think Reimu literally goes unconscious, nor why you think being conscious necessitates using energy to attack.

[Imosa]

The oni are strong, not just in a relative sense, but in an absolute sense. Strength defines them as youkai. They can be tricked, sure, but never beaten in a fair fight. An oni who is not the strongest isn't an oni at all. Obviously then, Suika is the strongest oni, and Yuugi is also the strongest oni, and Kasen is the strongest too. Because they're all oni. Practically speaking that doesn't make much sense, but since they're oni they don't sweat the details.

Interesting. Any idea how Kishin fit into that?

[Clarste]

Interesting. Any idea how Kishin fit into that?

Well, I did just admit that it doesn't make any sense, didn't I? But in the spirit of answering the question I would say that Kishin are just oni who happened to become gods. It's not like gods are particularly impressive in this setting (see: Aki sisters) so the term doesn't necessarily imply "super oni" or anything like that. Just an oni god.

And even that has to assume that kishin are actually a form of oni, although I think that's pretty likely because of the name "Suiki", which is another famous oni from legend.

[Fonzi]

The point was that the card states Melee > Danmaku as a fact.

No, it doesn't. Read the context, not just the text.

I see nothing wrong with using Yorihime as an example, if we can use Eirin as an example.

It's always possible for student to surpass the master. Was Eirin not being serious when she wanted to thwart the heroines' plans during IN? Was Kaguya not serious? Eirin may be wiser and the Watatsukis respect her, but Yorhimie's power alone may be even greater than both Kaguya and Eirin's combined. During IN, they also had to obey the Spell Card rules, so they also had to use a liminted number of them, even when both moon ladies could potentially have energy for countless more cards. In SSiB, every fight was a new duel, so even if Yorihime previously used several "bombs" this number was again replenished in a fight against a new opponent.

It never says you can't use powerful spells in the beginning. Just because you cannot in a game, it does not mean a character in a story cannot. This is game play and story segregation, because it wouldn't be fun if everyone can start off with attacks that take half or all your life. It also makes for uninteresting story telling if a main character just begins a super powerful attack and one shots her opponent, unless of course, that was the point, like when they introduce a character and make her look badass.
For example, in the manga, Marisa starts off with a spell card right, then, goes straight into Final Spark. Remilia, on the other hand, was messing around and did not use any of her recognized attacks.

Here we were discussing the idea of powerful attacks requiring lots of power. In Yorihime's case, she was basically bomb-spamming during all her duels, and even declared she could still win at least another (forgotten 6-digit number) of times in a row. Btw, she got hit more than once in that fight, so if each hit was supposed to mean 1 life down, she should have lost (or she jsut had a lot of lives). She literally ATE Marisa's star projectile. In danmaku games, yes we see characters starting off with a spell, but never with their ultimate one. The "power" or difficulty of these spells is also subjective, as every player may consider something easy, while another may consider the same thing too hard. I can certainly agree that the duels in the games are not in complete accord wtih the rules described in PMiSS. For instance, before every match it's first decided how many Spell Cards are going to be used. In the games, if you waste your bombs against one boss, you'll simply lack those bombs against the next one.  Another thing is that PMiSS says that whoever uses up all of their cards frist, loses. In games, bombs are the player's Spell Cards. This would literally mean that you'd lose the duel if you used your last bomb against a boss and the boss still survived. Another thing stated in PMiSS is that physical attacks are not to be repeated. This is thrown out of the window in the fighting games. Non-lethality is also questionable when using things like throwing knives and trains as danmaku.
As for the official mangas, they unfortunately provide very few instances where we see actual danmaku duels. Perhaps they can use Last Words in the first moment of a duel, but we are never shown that. We do not know how many Master Sparks can Marisa cast in a row before she tires completely. Or how many "Gungnirs" Remilia can throw. Or how many things Flandre can "kyuu". We are simply told that if Reimu's floating ablitlity wasn't restrictied by Spell Card Rules' time limit, she'd be unbeatable.

[Drake]

Was Eirin not being serious when she wanted to thwart the heroines' plans during IN? Was Kaguya not serious?

Actually no, not at all. Eirin had already succeeded before anyone arrived, and both her and Kaguya just wanted to play and let dawn come.

Another thing stated in PMiSS is that physical attacks are not to be repeated. This is thrown out of the window in the fighting games. Non-lethality is also questionable when using things like throwing knives and trains as danmaku.

That was a mistranslation that was recently corrected. It just says that you can't just repeat an attack after it's been defeated.
Non-lethality is usually explained by the things being thrown turning into something less solid and more magical, somehow.

[Fonzi]

Actually no, not at all. Eirin had already succeeded before anyone arrived, and both her and Kaguya just wanted to play and let dawn come.

This implies that if Erin and Kaguya were being serious they wouln't have lost, because "The residents of Earth can never beat the residents of the moon."

That was a mistranslation that was recently corrected. It just says that you can't just repeat an attack after it's been defeated.

And even then it's not true in case of player's attacks, which is usually just one or 2 Spell Cards that can be repeated as many times in a battle as the player has bombs.

[Mach131]

How long does it usually take for house set remixes to come out? I'm excited for DDC's.

[TrueShadow]

Regarding Eirin, wasn't she purposely limiting her power under respect to Kaguya? Because "it would be shameful if a master has a servant stronger than her".  That would throw the question about her power out the window, since no matter how strong she actually is, she'll never show more power than Kaguya.

Now, about Kaguya herself, the fact that the heroines could beat her could be because of several reasons. Maybe she's just that weak for a Lunarian, or she's not that good at danmaku (relative at her power level). Whatever it is, she's weaker than the Watatsukis.

[Tengukami]

Regarding Eirin, wasn't she purposely limiting her power under respect to Kaguya? Because "it would be shameful if a master has a servant stronger than her".  That would throw the question about her power out the window, since no matter how strong she actually is, she'll never show more power than Kaguya.

Now, about Kaguya herself, the fact that the heroines could beat her could be because of several reasons. Maybe she's just that weak for a Lunarian, or she's not that good at danmaku (relative at her power level). Whatever it is, she's weaker than the Watatsukis.

Power level discussions are a non-starter around here, as outlined in the sticky. I know, unwinnable pissing contests about our favorite 2hus are fun, but them's the rules.

[TrueShadow]

Eh, I honestly think you guys are a bit too strict regarding powerlevel discussions, and Eirin and Kaguya aren't even my favorite 2hus, but that wasn't my point. My point was that you shouldn't compare Eirin and Kaguya to the Watatsukis.

And regarding Spellcard rules, I don't think what's listed in PMiSS is the complete rules. If we're going by the assumption that Yorihime is in the player position and was just bomb-spamming attacks, there must be some kind of other rules regarding these "bombs". So far what PMiSS rules say only applies to enemy boss characters. I like how one fancomic (Touhou NekokayounInthink?) portrays it, in that you have an "offensive role" and one "defensive" role, with differing rules each. And the non-story mode fighting games are just both characters being on the offensive.

[Tengukami]

Eh, I honestly think you guys are a bit too strict regarding powerlevel discussions, and Eirin and Kaguya aren't even my favorite 2hus, but that wasn't my point.

It almost never happens that we actually need to ask people to back down from one. And believe me, powerlevel discussions are a tremendous headache, and as pointless as Cave v. Touhou or SWR v. IaMP. We didn't create this rule for some arbitrary random reason.

[Biakmon]

How canonically are the stories in "Touhou: Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth" really?
Even if the script wasn't written by ZUN, I don't think that the artist can put whatever dialogue he/she want in the story, isn't it?

- Also does the hourai elixir immune you from any possible disease/virus... completely immune from any illness in a sense and etc... or does it simply put your soul out of concept of reality and thus make it still possible to caught a disease?

- Does anyone know any similar song by other touhou character to "Suika theme - Broken moon"?

[Sagus]

How canonically are the stories in "Touhou: Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth" really?
Even if the script wasn't written by ZUN, I don't think that the artist can put whatever dialogue he/she want in the story, isn't it?

This is debated, but I think general conscensus is "the events depicted happened, if not necessarily in the way that they were shown". At any rate, I wouldn't use the details of that manga in canon discussions.

[Drake]

This implies that if Erin and Kaguya were being serious they wouln't have lost, because "The residents of Earth can never beat the residents of the moon."

I don't think that necessarily follows, even if you could take it that way. I was just pointing out that Eirin and Kaguya's plans already succeeded and the only point of the duel was for them to fight until dawn so Eirin can give back the moon. But since the heroines stopped the night that wouldn't happen, and so they were at a stalemate wasting time until Kaguya noticed and used her ability to fast-forward it to normal.

And even then it's not true in case of player's attacks, which is usually just one or 2 Spell Cards that can be repeated as many times in a battle as the player has bombs.

Again, I was just pointing out the mistranslation, because it's been pretty long-standing and is important enough to take note of. Also, :gameplay:

Also does the hourai elixir immune you from any possible disease/virus... completely immune from any illness in a sense and etc... or does it simply put your soul out of concept of reality and thus make it still possible to caught a disease?

One effect of the Hourai Elixir is total immunity to sickness. Ghost Team's dialogue suggests it might have to do with your liver, at least when you aren't yet immortal. When you are immortal, we know the body can still take damage, but since the previous effect is becoming impervious to sickness that takes care of it.

[Nyyl]

Kaguya's Impossible Request "Jewel from the Dragon's Neck -Five-Colored Shots-", did you know that it grants wishes? You can wish for anything with it.

Full description:  One of the impossible demands Kaguya presented. Each jewel contains stars, and it's said that if you collect 7 of them, it'll grant anything you wish.
Note the expression "it's said that". This means it's not presented here as a fact, but as a rumor, unlike the effect of Fantasy Nature.

I'm really late here but uh
isnt that just a dragonball joke

[TrueShadow]

It almost never happens that we actually need to ask people to back down from one. And believe me, powerlevel discussions are a tremendous headache, and as pointless as Cave v. Touhou or SWR v. IaMP. We didn't create this rule for some arbitrary random reason.

Yeah, let's get that over with.

Also, just curious, how would the Lunarians react if Mokou ever went to the moon?

[Sagus]

Probably just send her to Earth. It's all they did to Kaguya, after all. They consider Earth to be basically worse than Hell, so they probably think that that's punishment enough.

[Fonzi]

One more about the Hourai Elixir:
Wiki states Chang'e to be one of the four persons who drank the elixir, but in Eirin's character page, Chang'e is merely understood as the Chinese equivalent of Kaguya. So how is it? Are there only 3 people who ever drank the Elixir? Or Chang'e and Kaguya are not one and the same?

[Drake]

I don't think Chang'e is supposed to be the Chinese equivalent to Kaguya. I think this is a misunderstanding based on Chang'e having drank the Hourai Elixir and being sentenced. According to SSiB 2, Chang'e is apparently still imprisoned on (in?) the Moon. We also have Reisen II referring to Lady Jouga (actually Chang'e) and Lady Kaguya separately and during different time periods. Also the moon rabbits were supposed to pound medicine on the orders of Chang'e, following the story that Chang'e wanted another Elixir for her husband after drinking the Elixir herself (which itself is odd considering Chang'e's real name being Lunarian implies she's native to the moon where in the story they were human and she went to the Moon post-immortality). None of this really makes any sense if Kaguya is Chang'e.

[Fonzi]

Actually, Wikipedia has 3 versions of the story about Chang'e. In one she's an immortal from heaven, in the second, she's a girl working in the Jade Emperor's palace (still in heaven) and the third one presents her as a human mortal.
Now this is starting to get more confusing. If Chang'e drank the fordidden medicine, why wasn't she condemned to Earth like Kaguya? Was it her consumption of the elixir that made the Lunarians decide to ban using the elixir?
The fist thing that comes to mind is that Chang'e consumed the whole immortality pill, when only one half of it was necessary for her to regain/gain immortality. Having taken an extra dose, she began to ascend to the Moon, so it's probably the effect of the pill that is keeping her on the Moon whether she or the Lunarians want it or not.

Another question is what medicine are the moon rabbits making? They can't possibly be making more Hourai Elixir, can they? Only Eirin truly knows how to prepare it, and even then she needs Kaguya's power as a reagent. It would seem logical that the Moon has lost its capability to reproduce the elixir since Kaguya's exile.

[Drake]

Actually, Wikipedia has 3 versions of the story about Chang'e. In one she's an immortal from heaven, in the second, she's a girl working in the Jade Emperor's palace (still in heaven) and the third one presents her as a human mortal.

Having three versions isn't important, ZUN just takes what he wants, and often times melds everything together on purpose.

Now this is starting to get more confusing. If Chang'e drank the fordidden medicine, why wasn't she condemned to Earth like Kaguya? Was it her consumption of the elixir that made the Lunarians decide to ban using the elixir?

One option I see is that ZUN is using the "floated to the moon" part of Chang'e's story and made it impossible for her to leave the moon for some reason. I briefly considered the possibility that Chang'e doesn't actually exist and was thought up by the Lunarians to get the moon rabbits to work, but the superstition about the Chang'e Program by the Lunarians sort of gets in the way. My thoughts below make this unnecessary anyways.

The fist thing that comes to mind is that Chang'e consumed the whole immortality pill, when only one half of it was necessary for her to regain/gain immortality. Having taken an extra dose, she began to ascend to the Moon, so it's probably the effect of the pill that is keeping her on the Moon whether she or the Lunarians want it or not.

The medicine is explicitly said to be the Hourai Elixir, but yeah funny to see the same conclusion.

Another question is what medicine are the moon rabbits making? They can't possibly be making more Hourai Elixir, can they? Only Eirin truly knows how to prepare it, and even then she needs Kaguya's power as a reagent. It would seem logical that the Moon has lost its capability to reproduce the elixir since Kaguya's exile.

That's the point, I think. The rabbits aren't meant to ever stop pounding the medicine as Chang'e's punishment. They can't ever finish making the medicine, just as Chang'e will never die.

oh also Eirin mentions Chang'e and Kaguya as two different people

[Clarste]

Who says Chang'e was never exiled to Earth? Based on what they did to Kaguya, that seems to be a temporary punishment. I mean, they sent people down to take her home after she served it. Maybe they would have locked her up like Chang'e afterwards? Remember that they consider Earth the worst possible place: they probably think that being locked up on the moon is a better fate.

[Starxsword]

I disagree. Fantasy Nature's flavour text is a description and explanation. Scarlet Destiny's is explaining Remilia's preference, and the last phrase is just more on that. I wouldn't even necessarily translate 弾幕より直接格闘 as melee being better than danmaku; just "melee over danmaku".

Then, we disagree. The emphasis here is taking the wording literally. The idea is that some flavour text are being taken literally, while others are ignored is odd.

I'm really late here but uh
isnt that just a dragonball joke

Yes, it is. That is the point, the example is to show that you should not be taking the spell cards literally.
I think Reimu's spell card is a reference to Kenshiro's, from Fist of the North Star, ultimate attack, which is supposed to be invincible and unbeatable, so a description of something similar would also follow suit.

Also the unconsciousness argument is silly and I'm not sure why you seem to think that the state of consciousness affects stamina used in an attack, nor why you think Reimu literally goes unconscious, nor why you think being conscious necessitates using energy to attack.

That's because it is two states of consciousness, so I can see an argument on it.

In either case, if Reimu doesn't go unconscious, it doesn't matter. The argument here is much simpler, it becomes the question of why would Musou Tensei take no energy to use compared to every other skill? There is nothing to prove this logic. In the game, we know that it uses up cards, which can be an assumption of energy requirement.

It's always possible for student to surpass the master. Was Eirin not being serious when she wanted to thwart the heroines' plans during IN? Was Kaguya not serious? Eirin may be wiser and the Watatsukis respect her, but Yorhimie's power alone may be even greater than both Kaguya and Eirin's combined.

I will just say I strongly disagree with your assessment. I won't post any arguments on this, because this would be a power level discussion. If you see me on some other sites, then we can start this argument with me and I will post my reasonings why that is so.

Probably just send her to Earth. It's all they did to Kaguya, after all. They consider Earth to be basically worse than Hell, so they probably think that that's punishment enough.

I personally think that's a tongue in cheek thing. While they do consider it that way, they do want to punish the culprit first, if they can, before sending them to earth. Kaguya is apparently above their level of technology, as they did try to execute her and fail.
An example would be when the youkai first invaded the moon, they punished the youkai, then, sent them back.

Maybe they would have locked her up like Chang'e afterwards? Remember that they consider Earth the worst possible place: they probably think that being locked up on the moon is a better fate.

Heh, that's an interesting and plausible take on it.

[Sagus]

I personally think that's a tongue in cheek thing. While they do consider it that way, they do want to punish the culprit first, if they can, before sending them to earth. Kaguya is apparently above their level of technology, as they did try to execute her and fail.
An example would be when the youkai first invaded the moon, they punished the youkai, then, sent them back.

They'll probably see that she's a Hourai person and just cut to the chase. Then again, maybe they're more sadistic and will kill her for a while before sending her back.

I don't really think it'a tongue in the cheek; it is, after all, a place filled to the brim with impurity, and they really hate that stuff up there.

[Fonzi]

Then, we disagree. The emphasis here is taking the wording literally. The idea is that some flavour text are being taken literally, while others are ignored is odd.

During this conversation we have, in fact, taken every description literally. Scarlet Destiny can be taken literally, because it literally states what Remilia's preference in battles is. Kaguya's Jewel From the Dragon's Neck can also be taken literally, as it literally states what a rumor connected to the mentioned jewel is. Fantasy Nature states what it does and what it would result in should the rules be ignored. With Grimoire of Marisa we have 2 canon sources claiming the same thing.

In either case, if Reimu doesn't go unconscious, it doesn't matter. The argument here is much simpler, it becomes the question of why would Musou Tensei take no energy to use compared to every other skill? There is nothing to prove this logic. In the game, we know that it uses up cards, which can be an assumption of energy requirement.

Which has been explained time and time again that this exceptional and unique skill enables her to float away from "anything and everything" and provides no method for Reimu's defeat. If it relied on a limited source, she'd be, of course, defeatable by simply surviving her card until it ends. The time limit is its only limitation in the Spell Card system. Even if it would require any form of energy to trigger, once Reimu floats away from it all, there is nothing that can be done about it. Energy consumption is contained within the "anything and everything" category, and Reimu is able to float away from even that.

I will just say I strongly disagree with your assessment. I won't post any arguments on this, because this would be a power level discussion. If you see me on some other sites, then we can start this argument with me and I will post my reasonings why that is so.

There's always the private messaging function.

I personally think that's a tongue in cheek thing. While they do consider it that way, they do want to punish the culprit first, if they can, before sending them to earth. Kaguya is apparently above their level of technology, as they did try to execute her and fail. An example would be when the youkai first invaded the moon, they punished the youkai, then, sent them back.

You can't really compare an individual's crime against the law with a military invasion and call the youkai's defeat as a form of Lunarian punishment. They were a mass of beings out of control. Routing them first before sending them to Earth is as logical as it can be. Sending them back to Earth, now that was the punishment. The elixir is only forbidden to be taken by the Lunarians, it doesn't say anywhere this law applies to Earthlings too. They are already impure by defalut and why should the Lunarians care if any human decides to make his/her short life of misery and impurity into an eternal life of misery and impurity?