The Theory Thread

[TrueShadow]

Yeah, Koishi and Satori make it at least 2 satoris around. There may or may not be more, but it does seem unlikely, given the story.

What he's saying is that Satori lives in Former Hell, which is technically outside of Gensokyo

Former Hell is pretty much the underground abadoned by Hell. You only really have to go down to access Hell or Former Hell, nothing special is needed.

Go down how? There must be an entrance somewhere to access it unless you want to dig through the ground until you reach it...

[ToyoRai]

Regardless of what's happening, she is unlikely to be hunted at the moment, otherwise both Suika and Yuugi would be hunted.

The thing I was trying to say was that she isn't hunted, yes, but she is still being observed by Komachi. Also, Suika and Yuugi are still onis and don't try to hide it, so they don't have any fear of being assaulted by some kishin. The idea of that theory is that Kasen is not a real hermit. She is pretenting to be one to hide the fact that she's an oni. And if not doing what your species are ment to do is a sin to Eiki, trying to avoid the thing you are born as sounds like a bigger sin. As such, Komachi is sent to look after her to see what she's planning and maybe to make her just give up her hermit act and make her go back on being back to oni. After all, Hell isn't there to send sinner in, but so that people won't do as much sin.

[Drake]

Anyone can become a hermit. Being human is not a pre-requisite.

I figure but is there any confirmation.

You have to be a human to become a hermit. PMiSS lays this on in great detail. It doesn't make sense for anything non-human to become a hermit to begin with, since the whole purpose is to transcend human limitations in training the mind, body and spirit.

Go down how? There must be an entrance somewhere to access it unless you want to dig through the ground until you reach it...

...Well now that the seal is broken, there's just a big hole in the ground. That's it.

[Clarste]

I figure but is there any confirmation.

In SoPM, Byakuren talks about Tengu becoming hermits. Part 3, section 2.

[ToyoRai]

In SoPM, Byakuren talks about Tengu becoming hermits. Part 3, section 2.

I checked, Marisa does say back to Byakuren that there is definitely some hermit-like tengus. Notice that she says hermit-like. Also, whnever it would mean those "supernatural" hermits or just people who live alone somewhere in isolation would be argueable.

[Clarste]

I checked, Marisa does say back to Byakuren that there is definitely some hermit-like tengus. Notice that she says hermit-like. Also, whnever it would mean those "supernatural" hermits or just people who live alone somewhere in isolation would be argueable.

Not really, because in Japanese she says 仙人, which honestly doesn't have much to do with living in isolation. "Hermit" is just the translation we've got. Also, the context is "(Miko's) more like a tengu than I am". Also, Marisa says "hermit-like", Byakuren just says she believes some tengu are hermits. Whether or not what she believes is true, no one questions the idea of a tengu becoming a hermit. A real, honest-to-goodness, mystical hermit. Marisa is just kind of admitting that she can't tell.

[Sagus]

Not Higan or the real Moon, the others, yes, but not these two. The real moon, you see from the water's reflection. Higan is inaccessible. Heaven is accessible, as seen in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.

Remilia reaches the real moon using a rocket launched from Gensokyo, and Yukari specifically states that they can get there at all because the rocket launched from inside of Gensokyo, so these two "dimensions" border each other, or something.

Ah, it's true, nobody goes to Higan in PoFV. I was confusing it with Muenzuka.

[Starxsword]

I figure but is there any confirmation.

Huh, I think the question should be, is there any disconfirmation? There is nothing that says you cannot become a hermit if you are a non-human.

What he's saying is that Satori lives in Former Hell, which is technically outside of Gensokyo

Former Hell is in Gensokyo. Or Hell of Blazing Fires, whichever you want to call it.

Go down how? There must be an entrance somewhere to access it unless you want to dig through the ground until you reach it...

I don't know, what does it say in Subterranean Animism? Isn't there a cave entrance somewhere? This Article might help.

And if not doing what your species are ment to do is a sin to Eiki, trying to avoid the thing you are born as sounds like a bigger sin. As such, Komachi is sent to look after her to see what she's planning and maybe to make her just give up her hermit act and make her go back on being back to oni. After all, Hell isn't there to send sinner in, but so that people won't do as much sin.

Whether it is a sin to Eiki has no effect on whether she would send Shinigami at you. She is not there to prematurely kill you to take you to hell. She is there to guide you, so that you do not get sent to hell when/if you die. Of course, being a Hermit is special.

Komachi is sent there, because Kasen is pretending? to be a hermit. Did something new happen in Wild and Horned Hermit? I'm many chapters behind, but I was under the impression that Kasen is working with/for Komachi.

Also, was there anywhere in Wild and Horned Hermit that confirms that she is not a Hermit?

You have to be a human to become a hermit. PMiSS lays this on in great detail. It doesn't make sense for anything non-human to become a hermit to begin with, since the whole purpose is to transcend human limitations in training the mind, body and spirit.

Could you point this out in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense? I don't believe it is written anywhere that confirms that you need to be a human to become a hermit.
As far as I could tell, in Japanese and Chinese lore, Sennin can be either human or otherwise.

Anyway, yeah what Clarste said.

I checked, Marisa does say back to Byakuren that there is definitely some hermit-like tengus.

One of the reasons why I dislike that hermit translation. It is unclear. If a Chinese or Japanese reader sees the word "sennin" they know the connotations of it. Sennin roughly translates to "divine being".

Remilia reaches the real moon using a rocket launched from Gensokyo, and Yukari specifically states that they can get there at all because the rocket launched from inside of Gensokyo, so these two "dimensions" border each other, or something.

The reason why Remilia is able to reach the real moon could be because they are from Gensokyo. However, this is arguable. More importantly, it is because of how it was created. They are using the 3 tier system and having Reimu guide them with the gods, it would likely have worked whether or not they were in Gensokyo.

Eirin was impressed that they created the rocket correctly to reach the true moon. She made certain they were going to reach it by putting the Lunar Veil there, which Patchouli mentions when Eirin and Kaguya "visited".

Ah, it's true, nobody goes to Higan in PoFV. I was confusing it with Muenzuka.

Yeah, PMiSS was fairly specific that Higan is not in Gensokyo.

[ToyoRai]

Komachi is sent there, because Kasen is pretending? to be a hermit. Did something new happen in Wild and Horned Hermit? I'm many chapters behind, but I was under the impression that Kasen is working with/for Komachi.

Also, was there anywhere in Wild and Horned Hermit that confirms that she is not a Hermit?

Again, this is a theory thread. Whenever or not Kasen is a real hermit is just spectulation. If she was a real hermit, she probably helps Komachi to make sure they don't try to kill her. If she is not a hermit, then there must be other reason why Komachi visits her, which I theorize being the fact that she is pretty much denying her existence as an oni and they are just trying to make her stop her act by threating her like a hermit. I don't think that she has said that she's an youkai hermit.

[Imosa]

If she was a real hermit, she probably helps Komachi to make sure they don't try to kill her.

Don't they (Eiki) send the kishin to try and kill hermits.

[ToyoRai]

Don't they (Eiki) send the kishin to try and kill hermits.

Idea is that Kasen does services to Komachi in return of making so that no one sends a kishin to kill her. How she was able to do that kind of deal is beyond me. Maybe youkai hermits can make a deal like that since I am guessing the reason why hermits are hunted down is because they try to extend their natural live. And since youkais live longer than humans, Kasen might still live a natural live span and as such isn't a number one target to them yet.

[Prime32]

Depending on how closely ZUN is following the original stories, it would depend on the type of hermit. They seem to be okay with people who became hermits the hard way, but shikaisen are okay only if they're employees.

[Imosa]

Idea is that Kasen does services to Komachi in return of making so that no one sends a kishin to kill her. How she was able to do that kind of deal is beyond me. Maybe youkai hermits can make a deal like that since I am guessing the reason why hermits are hunted down is because they try to extend their natural live. And since youkais live longer than humans, Kasen might still live a natural live span and as such isn't a number one target to them yet.

Of course if Kasen does have a natural life span there would be no point in Kishin being sent anyway. We have heard nothing about Kasen doing services for Komachi either. Why would Komachi even hang out with Kasen if those services havn't been asked for. The "denying existance" is probably the best explanation thus far.

Depending on how closely ZUN is following the original stories, it would depend on the type of hermit. They seem to be okay with people who became hermits the hard way, but shikaisen are okay only if they're employees.

I don't see why the hermits should be treated differentially. Also employees of what?

[Clarste]

I don't see why the hermits should be treated differentially. Also employees of what?

Well, Seiga's profile says that Heaven rejected her for betraying her family by faking her death. And Miko and Futo did basically the same thing, except their betrayal was on an even larger scale. While I suppose it might be possible for the shikaisen process to be done in a "good" way, the basic nature of faking your death seems evil. Especially since the whole point of it seems to be to get another object to "die" for you, which probably doesn't sit well with the people in charge of death. I mean, how does Komachi feel when she shows up to pick up a soul to carry across the river and finds a bamboo stick or a plate instead? The whole thing just feels like you're pulling some sort of fraud on the Ministry of Right and Wrong.

[Imosa]

Well, Seiga's profile says that Heaven rejected her for betraying her family by faking her death. And Miko and Futo did basically the same thing, except their betrayal was on an even larger scale. While I suppose it might be possible for the shikaisen process to be done in a "good" way, the basic nature of faking your death seems evil. Especially since the whole point of it seems to be to get another object to "die" for you, which probably doesn't sit well with the people in charge of death. I mean, how does Komachi feel when she shows up to pick up a soul to carry across the river and finds a bamboo stick or a plate instead? The whole thing just feels like you're pulling some sort of fraud on the Ministry of Right and Wrong.

Mmmmm, that's a good point I guess. Although Komachi probably wouldn't have a problem with it. If she finds a plate to pick up she'll probably see it as one less person who knows she's not doing her job.

[ToyoRai]

@Clarste I think thos in charge of death just hate hermits. For example, Celestials are type of hermits and they still have to worry about getting their asses kicked by kishins. I doubt Celestials who didn't achieve nirvana because they were hermits might have to deal with this problem.

[Clarste]

@Clarste I think thos in charge of death just hate hermits. For example, Celestials are type of hermits and they still have to worry about getting their asses kicked by kishins. I doubt Celestials who didn't achieve nirvana because they were hermits might have to deal with this problem.

I don't think they hate them, it's more that immortality is a privilege and not a right. If they decide that you're wasting your immortality by not doing enough good deeds they'll cut you off. As explained in WaHH chapter 12, living too long is itself a sin for humans, since it disrupts the divine providence of Samsara. People are supposed to reincarnate. In order to make up for that, you have to do at least enough good deeds to balance out your sin. Or that's how I see it.

[TrueShadow]

Regarding the whole hermit thing, maybe the reason Kasen isn't hunted down is simply because she hasn't lived waaaaaay past her lifespan like Seiga has? If Kasen is an oni, and is about the same age as Suika and Yuugi (who are still alive and kicking), then she's still in her natural oni lifespan, and there is no reason for Hell to hunt her down.

Former Hell is in Gensokyo. Or Hell of Blazing Fires, whichever you want to call it.

I don't know, what does it say in Subterranean Animism? Isn't there a cave entrance somewhere? This Article might help.

Well, the wiki says Former Hell is outside of Gensokyo...
Suppose Former Hell is indeed a part of Gensokyo, my original question still remains. Is it just conveniently placed under Gensokyo even before it was sealed?

[Clarste]

Regarding the whole hermit thing, maybe the reason Kasen isn't hunted down is simply because she hasn't lived waaaaaay past her lifespan like Seiga has? If Kasen is an oni, and is about the same age as Suika and Yuugi (who are still alive and kicking), then she's still in her natural oni lifespan, and there is no reason for Hell to hunt her down.

This was strongly implied by Chapter 12 of WaHH, when Komachi started saying something like "Even you will eventually-" before interrupting herself. And then Kasen muses about how her fate will be different from the others. Which admittedly I translated with a roughly 75% loss of poignancy.

[ToyoRai]

Theory: Remilia and Flandre may not have born as vampires.
Reasoning: If you think about their personalities, Remilia is upper-class "lady" who is still childish and Flandre is just childish. Not only that, but both of them look like childs. Now you imagine that after something like 495 years they would mature mentally and maybe physically. That is, if they were natural vampires. However, waht if they were turned into vampires? That would maybe cause them to go into a "mode lock", prefending them to age both physically and mentally. Heck, their "age" would be counted from the moment they were turned into vampires.

[Sagus]

Former Hell is in Gensokyo. Or Hell of Blazing Fires, whichever you want to call it.

I'm pretty sure it isn't, purely because of how deep in the ground it is; Kanako thinks that it's lower portions reach the mantle of the planet (on continental crust like Japan, that's at least 20 km below the surface; for comparison, Mount Everest has 8,5 km in height). So unless the Hakurei barrier stretches  to the very bowels of the Earth...

The wiki says that it's implied to be a separate world from Gensokyo. I'd really like to know where, though. Maybe it's Akyuu's line on how all the oni moved to another world; since most seem to have gone to Former Hell, it could be considered a hint that the place is outside of Gensokyo.

[Clarste]

Theory: Remilia and Flandre may not have born as vampires.
Reasoning: If you think about their personalities, Remilia is upper-class "lady" who is still childish and Flandre is just childish. Not only that, but both of them look like childs. Now you imagine that after something like 495 years they would mature mentally and maybe physically. That is, if they were natural vampires. However, waht if they were turned into vampires? That would maybe cause them to go into a "mode lock", prefending them to age both physically and mentally. Heck, their "age" would be counted from the moment they were turned into vampires.

Remilia's EoSD profiles claims that she can't reproduce since she can't drink enough blood at once. Ergo, Touhou uses the classic Western "become a vampire when a vampire kills you" method, rather than the somewhat-more-popular-in-Japan "vampires are born to vampire parents" method. So, yes, it's patently obvious that she was born human and turned into a vampire. Which also implies that Flandre may not be her "real" sister.

On the other hand, this is contradicted by the PMiSS article on vampires, where Akyuu writes that those killed by vampire bites simply turn to dust after being a zombie for a while.

[ToyoRai]

Which also implies that Flandre may not be her "real" sister.

On the other hand, this is contradicted by the PMiSS article on vampires, where Akyuu writes that those killed by vampire bites simply turn to dust after being a zombie for a while.

I don't understand why you think Flandre isn't Remilia's real sister. It is higly possible that they were born in same family and were turned into vampires at some point.

And I think it is safe to say that you shouldn't believe absolutely everything what Akyuu writes. When she wrote during monologue that she gets lot of requests from youkais, she put a footnote saying that these include "Make me sound stronger", or "What do you think of this power?". So it would be possible that Remilia (I find it likeable she asked about vampires from her) either made that thing up or it only applies to herself ("Our Vampires Are Different" trope in work in-universe).

[Clarste]

I don't understand why you think Flandre isn't Remilia's real sister. It is higly possible that they were born in same family and were turned into vampires at some point.

I said "may". It's highly possible that they were born to the same family. It's also highly possible they weren't, and track their lineage through their vampire sire rather than their birth parents.

[Imosa]

@Clarste I think thos in charge of death just hate hermits. For example, Celestials are type of hermits and they still have to worry about getting their asses kicked by kishins. I doubt Celestials who didn't achieve nirvana because they were hermits might have to deal with this problem.

Why would only Celestials who were once hermits be dealing with this problem? Are they not human anymore? If so why should they still be punished?

[ToyoRai]

Why would only Celestials who were once hermits be dealing with this problem? Are they not human anymore? If so why should they still be punished?

That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnation

[Imosa]

That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnation

Actually, apparently all Celestials are attacked by kishin. Incidentally, I totally forgot that oni and hermits have a connection in that kishin come to attack the take hermits back to hell. Could Kasen be a kishin. Could she actually be a hermit and Suika is trying to bring her to hell? That would explain why Kasen is trying to hide from Suika. I rather doubt it actually because Suika doesn't seem to be into the whole "new hell" scene.

[Drake]

Huh, I think the question should be, is there any disconfirmation? There is nothing that says you cannot become a hermit if you are a non-human.

You shouldn't assume that a non-human can become a hermit if there are no actual examples of non-humans becoming hermits and everyone talks about hermits in terms of humans to begin with.

Komachi is sent there, because Kasen is pretending? to be a hermit. Did something new happen in Wild and Horned Hermit? I'm many chapters behind, but I was under the impression that Kasen is working with/for Komachi.

Kasen is definitely not working for Komachi. Kasen is confirmed (very implicitly early on and explicitly recently) to be pretending to be a hermit. The reason why Komachi was sent to keep tabs on Kasen is unknown, but Komachi at the very least knows what Kasen really is.

Could you point this out in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense? I don't believe it is written anywhere that confirms that you need to be a human to become a hermit.
As far as I could tell, in Japanese and Chinese lore, Sennin can be either human or otherwise.

Every instance of mentioning a race, including the very title, uses 人間, and in the abilities section it outright says hermits are a type of human (魅力的な人間である仙人だ). Everything about becoming a hermit seems to be fairly pointless for a youkai, and to have a type a youkai be called a delicacy to other youkai makes little sense.

Could Kasen be a kishin. Could she actually be a hermit and Suika is trying to bring her to hell? That would explain why Kasen is trying to hide from Suika. I rather doubt it actually because Suika doesn't seem to be into the whole "new hell" scene.

None of this. Kasen isn't a kishin; she didn't even know that kishin are the assailants from hell. Kasen is not a hermit. Suika has also found Kasen twice and hasn't even contacted her never mind attack her. Kasen is trying to hide from Suika so that Suika doesn't reveal her secret, and Suika doesn't know what Kasen is planning by masquerading as a hermit, but she found her at a party and left her alone because she realized Kasen must be planning something.

That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnation

No they haven't. There isn't a "goal" to the cycle of reincarnation to begin with. They cheated the cycle in order to get to Heaven; they did not get there by being judged to go to Heaven after death. They are still evading their lifespan just as hermits do. See what Clarste wrote.

[TheTeff007]

Maybe I am thinking a little too hard, but after checking the titles of the Main Danmaku games... this popped in my mind:

Touhou Generation I (EoSD, PCB and IN): The Titles refer to the Incidents themselves.
EoSD refers to the Master of the Scarlet Devil Mansion.
PCB refers to Yuyuko trying to lift the seal of the Saigyou Ayakashi
IN refers to the Extended Night that was used to track the real moon.

Touhou Generation II (MoF, SA and UFO): The Titles refer to a location, if not the Location of the game itself.
MoF stage 5 and onwards take place in the Youkai Mountain.
SA pretty much takes place in the Underground, except to the Extra. But Koishi is there so that's okay.
UFO although refers to the Seeds of Non-Identification (sorta), I could think of the Palanquin Ship as the Undefined Fantastic Object

Touhou Generation III (TD and now, DDC): My theory is that this generation will refer to the ability of the Final Boss:

TD has Miko being able to listen to ten people at once, and being able to listen their Ten Desires by Proxy...

Now... onto my theory...

My Guess is that DDC Final Boss will be either an Ungaikyo (The Mirror at the Title Screen gives me reasons to think of this) or, if we follow the "Western Monsters" that ZUN has used so far in this game, we could get a Doppelganger (This has less bases to work as a theory, aside from a Doppelganger being a western monster and that Doppelganger is German for "Double Walker" IIRC)

So yeah... what do you think, everyone?

[Starxsword]

You shouldn't assume that a non-human can become a hermit if there are no actual examples of non-humans becoming hermits and everyone talks about hermits in terms of humans to begin with.

That's because humans are usually the ones that become hermits. In Chinese or Japanese lore, even if humans are usually the case, other creatures aren't exempt from becoming a hermit.
So, I don't see why I wouldn't assume what is in lore if there are no contradictions.

and in the abilities section it outright says hermits are a type of human. Everything about becoming a hermit seems to be fairly pointless for a youkai, and to have a type a youkai be called a delicacy to other youkai makes little sense.

(妖怪にとって最も魅力的な人間である仙人だが) This doesn't say something along the lines of, "hermits who are human-like are most alluring to youkai"? I have very limited Japanese, so I can't really piece that sentence together.

The wiki says that it's implied to be a separate world from Gensokyo. I'd really like to know where, though. Maybe it's Akyuu's line on how all the oni moved to another world; since most seem to have gone to Former Hell, it could be considered a hint that the place is outside of Gensokyo.

Kanako says this in that article I linked:

Kanako: After I came to Gensokyo, I learned from the tengu that a hell(*3) existed in Gensokyo's underground. So I figured there would be an ocean of fire down there?

Akyuu's comment: 3: To be accurate, Former Hell. Its use as a prison was relocated to the New Hell that the Enmas are managing, and Former Hell became merely a nest for the violent and the despised.