The Theory Thread

[Tiamat]

Didn't Reimu say (in one of ZUNs books) that her shrine was once taken over by an evil spirit? Devils recitation is quite interesting too, almost like Byakuren met Shinki there.

I like to think of it to be like with, say, Medicine. A character who almost never appears due to her being in a place not relevant to the story and ZUN probably likes to introduce new characters to the universe.

That's where the confusion appears about Mima, since she was a major character in the past and being the master/teacher of Marisa. It is also unknown where she would go after the events of mystic square.

Mima's last ending in the extra stage after she defeats Alice

Spoiler:

has her deciding to become the god of the Hakurei shrine, after all.

. To be honest, if Mima still actually seriously exists within Touhou canon at all, her being the forgotten god of the Hakurei shrine really is the most logical possibility. That would conveniently explain (or at least fit in with) where she's been all this time and why she's mysteriously never shown up again and why no one talks about her anymore.

[Sagus]

There are at least 2 satoris in Gensokyo.

Other than Koishi, if there's any satori there, it's an unamed one.

[TrueShadow]

You know, regarding Former Hell, is there any reason why it was accessible from Gensokyo? Is it because of Yukari's borderhax? Or it's just that the entrance is conveniently placed in Gensokyo without any particular reason?

I also have a theory regarding Mima that may or may not make sense:

Marisa is Mima's reincarnation

Inspired by Mima's most prominent theme song and that I heard Marisa adopted a lot of Mima's traits in the Windows games (haven't actually played the PC-98 games myself). So at one time long long ago, Mima was just a human girl with a bad personality. Then she died. However, something happens during her death: Her soul got separated into two. One contains her evil and vengeful feelings and it contains tremendous danger, hence why it was sealed in Hell. The other one, the pure soul, entered the cycle of reincarnation, and was reborn as the PC-98 Marisa. Then the two met, the latter became the apprentice of the former, without either of them knowing it. But because of the evil spirit Mima kinda gave up of being evil, she slowly ceased to become an evil spirit, and little by little started merging with her other soul: Marisa's soul. By the Windows era, Mima's soul has been completely fused with Marisa's. Well, I don't know if this is possible, but that would explain her absence. Unfortunately this means Mima's not coming back ever.

Or another similar, simpler theory: Mima just hijacked Marisa's body, and then their souls merged. Although this one contains a bit more horror :V

[Imosa]

Mima's last ending in the extra stage after she defeats Alice

Spoiler:

has her deciding to become the god of the Hakurei shrine, after all.

. To be honest, if Mima still actually seriously exists within Touhou canon at all, her being the forgotten god of the Hakurei shrine really is the most logical possibility. That would conveniently explain (or at least fit in with) where she's been all this time and why she's mysteriously never shown up again and why no one talks about her anymore.

Why the spoiler tags, that's pretty cool news. Would it explain all of those things though? I mean since when can gods not show their faces, and why would nobody talk about her? Anyway, the wiki only says the Mima decides to be a god, not that she decides to be the Hakurei Shrine God.

[Sagus]

You know, regarding Former Hell, is there any reason why it was accessible from Gensokyo? Is it because of Yukari's borderhax? Or it's just that the entrance is conveniently placed in Gensokyo without any particular reason?

I think that Gensokyo, due to it's nature, just have access to a bunch of weird, outworldly places. I mean, I'm willing to bet that, before the creation of the Hakurei Barrier, you wouldn't be able to just walk to the Sanzu River from the Human Village, for instance.

I think that all these places are acessible near the border of the barrier, where reality isn't really well defined. I think it's like Gensokyo is this pocket dimension floating around in the void, with its borders touching other nearby dimensions that are also out of contact with the our world, like Higan, Heaven, the real Moon, etc. Not literally floating in the void, but you get what I mean (I hope).

[Tiamat]

Why the spoiler tags, that's pretty cool news. Would it explain all of those things though? I mean since when can gods not show their faces, and why would nobody talk about her? Anyway, the wiki only says the Mima decides to be a god, not that she decides to be the Hakurei Shrine God.

Ack, you're right. She just decides to become a god, not the god of the Hakurei shrine. Though she implicitly ends up deciding to become one of the eight million gods instead of whatever type of god Shinki was, if only because she can't really seem to figure out if Shinki's the same type of god.

I spoiler anything stated about endings, just in case. Though honestly I think people are overblowing ZUN's endings. He asked not to show them for people who haven't reached them yet, not to never talk about them or reveal their text.

Anyways, I included "or at least fit in with" cause I realized that's more accurate. For whatever reason, the Hakurei god never shows its face, and no one knows the name of the darn thing. Therefore, if Mima still existed, her never showing her face and no one remembering her name could simply be one and the same with whatever reason the Hakurei god never shows its face.

Alternatively, instead of the Hakurei god explaining Mima, Mima could explain the Hakurei god. Maybe there was no god originally, or maybe Mima was the original god but forgot (as did most others). After she decided to become the Hakurei shrine god ("again", possibly), something went HORRIBLY WRONG with her methods and she ended up accidentally sealing herself in the shrine, now its god but also unable to ever show her face and to continue to be forgotten and unknown. As a god, however, she now cares primarily more about faith than anything, but... she isn't really getting it, hence why Byakuren can sense her anger.

Well, that's just one of several possibilities.

As for why everyone forgot Mima's own name or never mentions her, um... I guess people in Gensokyo have really really bad memory or something (this wouldn't be the only case of THAT, for sure). Though you'd think Marisa would mention or think about her from time to time, at least. (then again, maybe she does and is sad/happy/apathetic that Mima's gone, but tries not to show it so she doesn't show weakness, similar to how Marisa hides how hard she works to keep up with Reimu)

[ToyoRai]

Couple of theories from me:
Theory 1: Kasen became a hermit because of self-hatred.
Reasoning: If we would accept the fact that Kasen is an oni, why would she become a hermit? I like to believe that she didn't like to an oni. After all, they ain't exacly the greatest of all youkais by their behavior. Other reason would be that she did something in the past what she regets doing what might be related to her being an oni. As such, she wanted a way to leave that behind. As such, she went hiding for a long time so that when she would come back, people would believe she would be an hermit. Also, I just like to believe that originally she had long horns, but sawed them down and hid the stumps under her hair buns.

Theory 2: Kasen isn't hunted down by shinigamis/kishins because she's an hermit, but because she tries to be a hermit
Reasoning: Eiki has pretty much made clear that people trying to avoid their purpose is a sin. So what would happen if some one would try to avoid being something she is, like Kasen avoiding the fact that she's an oni? Yeah, that would be a rather large sin. And where she does get the threatment of a hermit, it is either them being nice to her or they are trying to make her an oni again.

Theory 3: Youkais can return back to Human World, if people believe them hard enough.
Reasoning: The plot of chapter 14 of WaHH is that zashiki-warashis are disappearing to the Human World, due of them being in heavy demand in there. Of course, when that trend calms down, they return back to Gensokyo. Where this might be an unique case amongs youkais, I like to believe it might apply for other youkais as well. Like, if people would believe after a string of ship sinkings that it is caused by a funayuurei, Murasa might be able to appear in Human World before they think there is ohter reason for it and Murasa returns back to Gensokyo.

[Imosa]

@ToyoRai:
Theory 2: Kasen isn't being hunted down? Since when?
Theory 3: Isn't this kinda confirmed. Like the reason things are going to Gensokyo is because people stop believing in them?

[ToyoRai]

Theory 2: Kasen isn't being hunted down? Since when?

Well, what I mean by that is the reason why they bother to hunt down her even though she isn't really a proper hermit (if only humans can actually act as hermits) is because of that. It makes sense in my head at least.

[TrueShadow]

I think that Gensokyo, due to it's nature, just have access to a bunch of weird, outworldly places. I mean, I'm willing to bet that, before the creation of the Hakurei Barrier, you wouldn't be able to just walk to the Sanzu River from the Human Village, for instance.

I think that all these places are acessible near the border of the barrier, where reality isn't really well defined. I think it's like Gensokyo is this pocket dimension floating around in the void, with its borders touching other nearby dimensions that are also out of contact with the our world, like Higan, Heaven, the real Moon, etc. Not literally floating in the void, but you get what I mean (I hope).

Ah I see what you mean. Something like near the border of Gensokyo, it becomes something akin to a hub between worlds? I can buy that theory  :3

[Imosa]

Well, what I mean by that is the reason why they bother to hunt down her even though she isn't really a proper hermit (if only humans can actually act as hermits) is because of that. It makes sense in my head at least.

Has Kasen ever been hunted down?

[ToyoRai]

Has Kasen ever been hunted down?

Well, Komachi seems to visit her ever so often to keep an eye on her so where she might have not been in  danger of meeting up with kishin, it doesn't mean she can just relax.

[Imosa]

Well, Komachi seems to visit her ever so often to keep an eye on her so where she might have not been in  danger of meeting up with kishin, it doesn't mean she can just relax.

I meant, has she, in the past, been hunted by a kishin. We have no idea what Komachi is doing other then watching her. Could one of the jobs of the Shinigami be to check for Hermit Status? Maybe an oni hermit is so unheard of that Eiki is sending Komachi to see how it all works out.

[Darkness1]

Reply - Theory3: I always thought Yukari created Gensokyo to stop the wars between youkai and humans to go out of control. But I may have read that one wrong, afterall, but it made sense in my head.

Theory: Shinki and Sariel are related (due to them both having seraphim style wings).

Spoiler:

Crack

theory: The thing sealed (fanonlol) in Rumias ribbon is Satsuki Rin :V

[ToyoRai]

I meant, has she, in the past, been hunted by a kishin. We have no idea what Komachi is doing other then watching her. Could one of the jobs of the Shinigami be to check for Hermit Status? Maybe an oni hermit is so unheard of that Eiki is sending Komachi to see how it all works out.

Now that I remember stuff right, no. During Chapter 12, Komachi tells Kasen that shikigamis are not the ones to kill hermits, but kishins. The fact that this is news to Kasen means that she never had to fight for her hermit life.

[Drake]

Komachi's aware that Kasen isn't a hermit, but her posing as a hermit means she's up to something and her being a hermit in particular is important to that, which is why Komachi's hanging around.

[Tengukami]

Maribel doesn't really fit a half-youkai either. One of the things about Rinnosuke is he doesn't age (much). Maribel seems to be aging normally so far (or at least, to have AGED normally so far). If she or her relatives didn't age normally, someone probably would have noticed or brought it up by now (and Maribel does have relatives. She says to Renko, "I don't even have any relatives in Japan!", not "I don't even have any relatives!", implying she has relatives SOMEWHERE, but not in Japan). Rinnosuke also doesn't need to eat much, and is not attacked by youkai, presumably due to his half youkai status. Maribel meanwhile is almost as hungry as Yuyuko in her stories and is attacked by youkai all the time.

What I like about this particular factoid is it may shed light on how some beings, even humans, could find their way into Gensokyo.

I mean, we know there are humans in the village. We know that new characters manage to make their way into Gensokyo. But are these the only beings how manage to make it in? Doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if there were creatures, both human and youkai alike, who do manage to make their way into Gensokyo and ... we just never hear about them. Why? Who knows. Possibly accidental death, starvation, exposure, maybe they blend in with other populations, maybe they are "helped" back out.

Now, what I think the long, tenuous link between Maribel and Yukari does is give us some kind of glimpse into how this might happen; that perhaps the border is more porous than we realize, and that blood ties to someone already on the inside might help with this. It's obviously not the only way - we know that total strangers do make their way into Gensokyo. But the Yukari/Maribel thing could hint that perhaps being blood related to someone who is or has been on the inside makes you more likely to not only be able to see the border, but cross it, too.

Pure speculation, no evidence provided. You're welcome.

[Tiamat]

What I like about this particular factoid is it may shed light on how some beings, even humans, could find their way into Gensokyo.

I mean, we know there are humans in the village. We know that new characters manage to make their way into Gensokyo. But are these the only beings how manage to make it in? Doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if there were creatures, both human and youkai alike, who do manage to make their way into Gensokyo and ... we just never hear about them. Why? Who knows. Possibly accidental death, starvation, exposure, maybe they blend in with other populations, maybe they are "helped" back out.

Now, what I think the long, tenuous link between Maribel and Yukari does is give us some kind of glimpse into how this might happen; that perhaps the border is more porous than we realize, and that blood ties to someone already on the inside might help with this. It's obviously not the only way - we know that total strangers do make their way into Gensokyo. But the Yukari/Maribel thing could hint that perhaps being blood related to someone who is or has been on the inside makes you more likely to not only be able to see the border, but cross it, too.

Pure speculation, no evidence provided. You're welcome.

According to Perfect Memento/Gensokyo Chronicles, random outsider humans pop into Gensokyo from time to time.  And they aren't scared of youkai, but are scared of ghosts, despite how youkai are far more dangerous (IMHO, the implication here is that they see youkai as people with funny hats, and ghosts as... well, those white spirit ghost things).

WHICH RESULTS IN THEM GETTING EATEN!  YUMMY YUMMY. (outsiders aren't protected by "the contract")

I'm kinda surprised this has only been VERY vaguely touched upon so far in official works (besides Maribel), and pretty much NEVER touched on in fandom. I can only assume it only has ever vaguely been brought up cryptically in official works because it's too dark for Touhou's light hearted story, even if it is apparently canon, but in terms of fandom, kinda surprised no one's ever done a story on it. It'd make for a pretty good horror story or something.

Hell, Perfect Memento states that sometimes those outsiders get eaten after the youkai loses interest in them. Yep, that outsider could see that cute Mystia with the funny ears and for a while she'd play with him/her and have fun, then after getting tired/bored of it, CHOMP NOM OM OM.

Also, FS mentions that the border does pretty much jack squat when it comes to keeping wild animals out.

[Darkness1]

It is probably the job of human protectors (like Reimu/Keine) to get them to safety if they find humans that have "spirited away" in this case. So if they would find the way to the human village or the hakurei shrine without getting attacked, they would be safe. I'm not really sure what happens from then on, if those humans would be thrown out of Gensokyo or put in the human village if they aren't already.

[Drake]

The PMiSS articles explaining what you just said go on to say that they're booted back to the outside world from the Hakurei shrine, unless they want to stay, in which case they settle in the Human Village. PMiSS also notes that the ratio of people who want to stay has increased (not that there are many examples to make a trend).

[Sagus]

I wonder if the "outsiders are eaten" thing wasn't what Yukari meant on WaHH 14 with her (paraphrased) "Gensokyo's youkai stomachs are being filled with food from somewhere" dialogue.

[Drake]

It's implied that Yukari is spiriting away these humans, who make so little impact on the outside world that nothing would change if they were gone. Humans that wander in, however, simply aren't protected by the youkai contract forbidding them from eating Gensokyo's humans, and so they're eaten.

[PhantasmStardust]

Well this is simply adding to the theory (since the theory had already existed) on Alice being the "Culprit" in Doll's in Pseudo Paradise's story (C62 Version) (Yeah it's kind of old)
I'll be going over the "song stories" that apply and how it kind-of fits

Legend of Hourai Well, not the best way to start the theory off, as the only way to link with Alice is simply "Hourai", also clowns normally wear clothes of many colours and Alice is the "Seven Coloured Puppeteer" so that may attribute to being the "clown"

Lovely Mound of Cherry Blossoms ~ Japanese Flower and Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17  Once again references the "clown"

Strange Oriental Discourse  First being the "Cowardly one of the group" may be Alice due to her being described as a coward. (I think it was in IaMP?) Next the "hanging" of oneself made me think of her spellcard "Hanged Hourai Dolls." Plus having failed to die, the person was "reborn" and was "pretending to be human just once more." In regards to Perfect Memento, Alice is stated to have been once a human and became a Magician, and so is no longer human and reborn as a Youkai.

Enigmatic Doll The "clown" references continue and well the song name (albeit that's Seihou and not Alice-related...)

Forest of Dolls The "Western style building" could only either be Marisa's or Alice's and simply the song name

Witch of Love Potion The clown again

Reincarnation (C62) The whole nailing to a tree, which is referenced in Bohemian Archive (C63) The Western style house,  the line "the girl who lived there hardly ever came into town" as Alice is said to stay inside mainly  and the girl who "looks like she did when she was young" since I can't think of any characters who had a younger form besides Alice. This may also may be part of the theory of "Alice's true body is her PC-98 Form"

Eternal Shrine Maiden and The Strange Everyday Life of the Flying Shrine Maiden Well "the beautiful blonde girl" could be seen as Alice and also due to the shrine maiden feeling "I've seen her somewhere before" which could be a reference to Mystic Square.  Plus it's shown there was a female among the honest men in the story.

Finally, due to there being only Seven corpses and eight less "people" , one may still be alive as despite there being "No honest men left" as said in Eternal Shrine Maiden it may mean that the person alive is simply not being honest and as such lying. I think Magicians had a lying nature, or is that simply Marisa?
----
The passive nature of the shrine maiden towards the honest men getting killed and the whole "outside world humans are expendable" is somewhat unnerving

[Tengukami]

PMiSS also notes that the ratio of people who want to stay has increased (not that there are many examples to make a trend).

Now that is interesting. Fits in nicely with a crop of new faiths coming into the fray. Correlation != causation, but it is pretty convenient for a growing population.

[ToyoRai]

It's implied that Yukari is spiriting away these humans, who make so little impact on the outside world that nothing would change if they were gone.

Huh. I though Yukari spirited away suicidal people. ANd people she personally liked.

[Drake]

If someone was going to off themselves and "succeeded", they certainly wouldn't be around to make any impact on the world after that (...besides maybe hitting the ground?). It falls into that category.

[Imosa]

Ok, I finally have a theory worth posting.

I propose a theoretical god. It's only important feature is the core belief that you are never in its presence.
I'll explain the practical example of this god, and please be calm. From Kanako, we know that gods travel to Gensokyo as a haven for when they lack faith in the outside world. Again from Kanako we know that gods change their nature in order to better gain faith. So what if a god had lost all faith outside and tried to enter Gensokyo but every one in Gensokyo held the core belief that this god couldn't be in Gensokyo.
So, the god, with no faith from the world, would reach the boarder and enter. Once inside it would have to conform in order to gather faith, and seeing as it doesn't want to die, it would do just that. The god would then have to leave in order to continue gathering faith. Once outside it would again not have any faith and try to enter Gensokyo again. This cycle would continue indefinitely with the god gaining a lousing faith.
There are some problems with this god but I'll try to explain what I do know. Despite what I said a practical version of this god is very hard to establish, because I don't think people think about these things in the correct order. A god like this would have to be some kind of god that you don't want around, but before you can decide that you don't want him around you'd have to describe him and process why you don't want him. However by that point the god would already have been created and you could no longer impose the condition that you have no contact with this god because by thinking about the god you are establishing contact. You would have to start thinking about this god as not being present, after that it would be impossible to establish any other facts about this god because you've never been in contact. The only two ways to give any kind of features to this god is to create the entire god simultaneously or to take an existing god and instantly begin believing the god doesn't have any contact before rationally realizing that he does. Interestingly enough, some existing touhous could help with this task, Koishi is most notable, but there is also Nue, Sanae, and anyone who manipulates time.
One criticism I was told that what the god would do, is continue to stay in the believers presence by hiding from him. The believer would think the god isn't in his presence while the god actually was. This doesn't seem possible to me because even if hiding was one of the god's attributes that would never overrule the more basic attribute of not being in the believers presence.

(gonna do a little wilder thinking here)
Personally, I think the existence of this god is dubious at best. It could be anything but it's always osculating on the periphery of wherever we are. I love the idea of countless such entities lurking at the boundaries of what characters know condemned by the forces that keep them alive. Over long periods of time, in places like the like the Hakurei Boarder, more and more gods would reach this state and begin to combine into a giant homogenous god surrounding all of Gensokyo and embodying the uncertainties of what is beyond our knowledge.
Imagine what would could learn from measuring such a god. His size, frequency of oscillation, composition, could tell us so much about the thing he's surrounding.

[ToyoRai]

...The hell did I just read? No really, where were you going with that theory?

[Starxsword]

Didn't Reimu say (in one of ZUNs books) that her shrine was once taken over by an evil spirit? Devils recitation is quite interesting too, almost like Byakuren met Shinki there.

Yes, this is mentioned in Curiousities of Lotus Asia. However, it may or may not be a reference to Mima.

Other than Koishi, if there's any satori there, it's an unamed one.

Yeah, Koishi and Satori make it at least 2 satoris around. There may or may not be more, but it does seem unlikely, given the story.

You know, regarding Former Hell, is there any reason why it was accessible from Gensokyo? Is it because of Yukari's borderhax? Or it's just that the entrance is conveniently placed in Gensokyo without any particular reason?

Former Hell is pretty much the underground abadoned by Hell. You only really have to go down to access Hell or Former Hell, nothing special is needed.

like Higan, Heaven, the real Moon, etc. Not literally floating in the void, but you get what I mean (I hope).

Not Higan or the real Moon, the others, yes, but not these two. The real moon, you see from the water's reflection. Higan is inaccessible. Heaven is accessible, as seen in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.

For whatever reason, the Hakurei god never shows its face, and no one knows the name of the darn thing. Therefore, if Mima still existed, her never showing her face and no one remembering her name could simply be one and the same with whatever reason the Hakurei god never shows its face.

Considering that the Hakurei shrine's god has been around since before Mima, this is unlikely. However, it is true that only a few people know who the Hakurei shrine's god is.

As for why everyone forgot Mima's own name or never mentions her, um... I guess people in Gensokyo have really really bad memory or something (this wouldn't be the only case of THAT, for sure). Though you'd think Marisa would mention or think about her from time to time, at least. (then again, maybe she does and is sad/happy/apathetic that Mima's gone, but tries not to show it so she doesn't show weakness, similar to how Marisa hides how hard she works to keep up with Reimu)

This is likely the case of retcon. If Zun were to introduce Mima, I would think it as a new character with a similar, but different background. Kind of like how Yuuka was introduced in PoFV or Alice in PCB.

Theory 2: Kasen isn't hunted down by shinigamis/kishins because she's an hermit, but because she tries to be a hermit

Regardless of what's happening, she is unlikely to be hunted at the moment, otherwise both Suika and Yuugi would be hunted.

Well, what I mean by that is the reason why they bother to hunt down her even though she isn't really a proper hermit (if only humans can actually act as hermits) is because of that. It makes sense in my head at least.

Anyone can become a hermit. Being human is not a pre-requisite.

The passive nature of the shrine maiden towards the honest men getting killed and the whole "outside world humans are expendable" is somewhat unnerving

Those are not "honest men", so them being killed is not a problem. They are thieves and bandits. Alice is probably doing the world a favor by killing them all.

[Imosa]

...The hell did I just read? No really, where were you going with that theory?

Well what I just wrote is enough for me but how about this. It's a new character. We havn't seen and won't see her in any way but we can speculate that she exists. If someone doesn't find a fault with the idea, then we might even be able to pretty much confirm a character like this exists at some point in time and space, simply as a natural consequence of the world that ZUN has created. Its kinda like the orbit of pluto which can't be observed because we havn't known about it long enough, but we can infer because we think we know how gravity works. Of course, I don't expect the idea to be without fault, and maybe what I just explained is too heady a goal, but its interesting to think about.
Besides, I'm really excited because while I always figured a character who is trapped, traveling across the Hakurei boarder would exist, I never had an idea of how to actually make it work.

In fact let me just explain where the fault came from. This came from Warsign on an irc channel, esper.net/touhou. If we look at my god on the boarder of Gensokyo, I think he imagines that my god wouldn't move into Gensokyo but would instead simply appear in Gensokyo. At that point everyone would know the god existed which would stop be the belief that the god can't be in Gensokyo, thus allowing the god to persist in Gensokyo. He points to SSiB where we see Toyohime calling gods. Those gods don't walk, they just appear, and that ability would circumvent the core belief of not being present. If that is actually what he meant, I disagree because I don't think it would circumvent the core belief.

Anyone can become a hermit. Being human is not a pre-requisite.

I figure but is there any confirmation.