The Theory Thread

[Cybeast710]

Seija Kaku

Hang Castle was her old haunt. To explain, there were switches which "turned the castle upside down", but the MOON WAS BELOW THEM when it flipped...

[Jq1790]

Sorry if I'm missing something. How is Kiyohime related to touhou?

My theory : One of the japanese folklore character, Kiyohime, is possibly related or even have a sibling relation with the Watatsuki Sister.  An unwanted child of the Watatsuki family, so she may have been abandoned by her parents on earth and adopted by the village headman. She also turned into serpent/dragon when angered (which increase the possibility of relation to the Watatsumi Dragon God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime

Bolded for a guess of emphasis?  (Sorry if I should've just left AntiReality to do that, but I noticed it so I figured I'd point at it.)

[Drake]

The story of Kiyohime isn't related at all to the Wakatsuki, nor Watatsumi (besides turning into a serpent when swimming), nor is Watatsumi related to the Wakatsuki, nor is Watatsumi actually implied to be the dragon god of Gensokyo, only sharing the name 龍神 which is just literally "dragon god" and is meaningless.

[uc9]

Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?

[Tengukami]

Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?

I'm glad you asked!

[uc9]

I'm glad you asked!

"That just raises further questions" -Hermes from futurama


If I had to take a guess as to what she saw at the shrine that may have seen a even further in the future version of herself.  If the universe allows for real time travel, and not just creation of parallel universe, if she met a future version of herself then it would have been a paradox if she hadn't become yukari and had her powers awakened.  She would have HAD to become yukari in order for history continue to make sense.

[Drake]

A determinist might say that the meeting of a future Yukari itself necessitates that a world where Maribel sees Yukari only would ever outcome in Maribel becoming Yukari, and in that sense a paradox is literally impossible. From that point of view it's funny to suppose that time travel shenanigans are a total non-issue since any supposed time paradox would necessarily not happen. Like if you went to kill someone in the past or do some other noticeably future-altering thing it would never happen because you already exist in a world where that didn't happen, and you just weren't originally aware that whatever other things you did during time-travel really happened.

But that has nothing to do with Touhou oops

[Tiamat]

Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?

If this is a joke post, it made me laugh.

[uc9]

If this is a joke post, it made me laugh.

Hey now, I just started the franchise a month ago.

[Raikaria]

Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?

It's Christmas I'll bite.

My personal opinion is no. The whole 'Yukari is Maribel when sleeping' theory was jossed in 7.5 and 9.5; as well as 13.5; where Yukari is clearly awake during the daytime. All of these games are canon; and I think we'd have heard of Maribel going into comas randomly if she was doing so whebever Yukari was awake during the day.

On the other hand; I personally think that Maribel may be related to Yukari. Especially when you bear in mind a remark ZUN made on the topic:

'There was a Lafcadio Hearn' and then he laughed.

Now; looking at the time period; the possibility that this [Touhou Universe version of] Lafcadio is the Grandfather of Maribel is certainly a possibility; in which case inheriting Yukari's powers are appearance is certainly possible. I mean; how often have you been told 'You have your Grandfather's/Grandmother's looks?'. In fiction it also is somewhat common for magic to skip a generation. Grandmother/Grandfather witches and wizards are pretty common; with normal parents. [Common =/= The Norm]

The time travel theory doesn't fit with what ZUN said either. How does Lafcadio Hearn fit in there; what would Maribel traveling through time have to do with a guy born years before her; and if you traveled through time; why would you go back to at least when Yuyuko was alive and live through to... whenever Yukari ends up living to?

===

Also; here's a really small one that popped up in my head a few days ago:

Elly's power is unknown; right?
Elly rips the floor tiles from the floor and throws them at you.
She throws her scythe like a boomerang and has it return to her. Which; let's face it; Scythes can't do.

That sounds like Telekinesis. It explains both.

[Sagus]

Lafcadio Hearn changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo later in life. PMiSS shows that "Yukari Yakumo" was not Yukari's original name. Maribel was already show to be able to travel through time, going by the note found hundreds of years ago on the Bamboo Forest of the Lost published on PMiSS. She does so accidentally, and thinks the whole experience is a dream, but she does it anyway.

My take on the whole thing is that some event later in Maribel's life will leave her trapped in the distant past. Taking the long route to the present, her powers will continue to grow greater and greater (as they are already show to be doing in NToJ), ending up as the current Yukari.

[Tengukami]

Taking the long route to the present, her powers will continue to grow greater and greater (as they are already show to be doing in NToJ), ending up as the current Yukari.

That's largely been my hunch, too. ZUN's usual coyness aside, there's a tempting narrative path to take here with Maribel. I can easily see this direction being taken, as it seems to make sense to play out this way. Then again, ZUN is nothing if not full of surprises.

[Sophilia]

There is one twist I think might be in store.  If someone with such powers just appeared out of nowhere in the distant past, wouldn't they think she was some kind of god?  And in doing so, after Mary died, she would leave a shinrei...one now called Yukari Yakumo.  Of course this is just me trying to tie up the whole Hakurei God thing in a neat little package.

[Drake]

The god of the Hakurei shrine is actually enshrined, for one. Yukari is clearly not and doesn't possess any other attributes of a divine spirit, such as requiring faith. She's really obviously a youkai.
Humans can just as easily become youkai as they can become gods, if you really want to push the "people discovered she has magical powers" thing. Gods are revered, youkai are feared; that is the main difference between them. Moreover if Maribel were worshiped as a god, it would probably be verifiable in some sense. Most (all?) gods in the series so far have had some historical significance.

[Sagus]

Not that I put any stock in the "Yukari is the Hakurei God" theory, but what exactly tell us for sure that she's not enshrined? I mean, Suwako is enshrined in the Moriya temple and yet can go around and do as she pleases. Other than people talking about it, there's nothing that really points towards a god being enshrined or not, is there?

[Tiamat]

lol.   It begins agaaaaaaaaiiin.

I still stand by that ZUN was basically saying, in answer to the question, "What is the relationship between Maribel and Yukari?", his answer basically meant "It's the same as Lafcadio's relationship to Koizumi."    Of course, the most important thing to most people would be the whole  "Lafcadio Hearn moved to Japan and changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo" so "Maribel Hearn moved to Gensokyo and changed her name to Yukari Yakumo" (but with time travel shenanigans!) thing, but there's a ton of other analogues too, like Yukari being dubbed a youkai expert just like Koizumi and... well, anyways, all the POSSIBLE relevant evidences I could find are at the wiki.  There's just so many things strewn about which could be there because Maribel eventually "grew up" to become Yukari.

Of course, it could all be just coincidences and/or misinterpretations.  *shrug*  I'm of the firm belief they aren't and that the vast majority of them ZUN put in on purpose due to Mary and Yukari's true relationship, but obviously peoples' mileage may vary.

(The Hakurei Shrine god is Mima.  Everyone knows that!     ....although in all seriousness she did canonically try to become its god for a brief time. She ended up dropping it but hey, maybe she gave it another shot later!)

It's Christmas I'll bite.

My personal opinion is no. The whole 'Yukari is Maribel when sleeping' theory was jossed in 7.5 and 9.5; as well as 13.5; where Yukari is clearly awake during the daytime. All of these games are canon; and I think we'd have heard of Maribel going into comas randomly if she was doing so whebever Yukari was awake during the day.

The more likely (IMHO.  ...although IMHO "almost certain" would reflect my own personal beliefs more) is that Maribel grew up to become Yukari after time travelling to the past. The "Maribel is Yukari while sleeping and vice-versa" idea just has too many contradictions, as you've pointed out, and doesn't really match the Lafcadio Hearn Koizumi Yukamo relationship, either, nor does it have as many circumstantial evidences such as the ("probably") fact that Yukari isn't Yukari's actual name.

[Starxsword]

I already mentioned this before. While I think it is a sound theory, I don't believe it. I already mentioned the leaps of logic you must make.

[Sagus]

I already mentioned this before. While I think it is a sound theory, I don't believe it. I already mentioned the leaps of logic you must make.

What leaps of logic? Maribel's powers are shown to be growing as time goes by. She was already shown to be able to get lost in different time periods (and CiLR also confirms that humans can, rarely, get lost in time). Maribel and Yukari have the same ability (Maribel's have grown to the point where she can travel to different worlds as she wishes; it certainly isn't just "seeing boundaries" anymore), the main difference being their strength. Yukari went to the moon manipulting its reflection on a lake; Maribel is implied to have had the same idea when looking at the reflection of the moon on a lake. "Yukari" is explicitly not Yukari's original name, which ties to ZUN's comment about Lafcadio Hearn (who, again, changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo when he became a Japanese citizen.).

The only event missing is the one that sends Maribel back in time and traps her there. Everything else falls squarely in place.

Really, you'd need leaps of logic to explain why Maribel isn't Yukari. I don't see a single piece of solid evidence that points to the contrary.

[Cybeast710]

Remind me why I bumped this? Oh right, a theory that was ignored.

[Drake]

It was ignored because your association to Seiga still doesn't make any sense with your explanation and you're merging in another video game series for some reason.

[Cybeast710]

It was ignored because your association to Seiga still doesn't make any sense with your explanation and you're merging in another video game series for some reason.

I thought I said Seija and it was a joke about a former haunt. After all, Hang Castle from Sonic Heroes consistently flipped upside down and right side up. Ah well.

[Rei Scarlette]

I don't mean to nitpick, but if that post used to say "Seiga Kaku" (I can't see it's pre-edit form) then when you went back to correct it, it seems you put down "Seija Kaku" which is neither of the two. I think you meant Seija Kijin.

For whatever it's worth, I read it as Seija the first time around and immediately knew what you were getting at, I just had nothing interesting to say about it.

[Tengukami]

I ignored it because it made no sense to me, and therefore had nothing to add.

[uc9]

What leaps of logic? Maribel's powers are shown to be growing as time goes by. She was already shown to be able to get lost in different time periods (and CiLR also confirms that humans can, rarely, get lost in time). Maribel and Yukari have the same ability (Maribel's have grown to the point where she can travel to different worlds as she wishes; it certainly isn't just "seeing boundaries" anymore), the main difference being their strength. Yukari went to the moon manipulting its reflection on a lake; Maribel is implied to have had the same idea when looking at the reflection of the moon on a lake. "Yukari" is explicitly not Yukari's original name, which ties to ZUN's comment about Lafcadio Hearn (who, again, changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo when he became a Japanese citizen.).

The only event missing is the one that sends Maribel back in time and traps her there. Everything else falls squarely in place.

Really, you'd need leaps of logic to explain why Maribel isn't Yukari. I don't see a single piece of solid evidence that points to the contrary.

Hmm. . That raises the question of what was would be the hypothetical event that caused her to be trapped in the past?  If Maribel is Yukari then that would mean that there's a unknown third party responsible for her no longer being able to time jump.  Whatever it was it would have been present both at the shrine and at the moon.  The question is what was so powerful or so important that she either lost the ability to jump through time or chose to no longer to?
Anyone have any ideas of what she saw was?


Even discarding time travel yukari has alternative reasons for helping gensokyo.  It's not as simple as "just" wanting to help gensokyo in that she's deliberately been for a thousand years working towards a specific end of something.  The question is what could be that important?

[Drake]

If Maribel is Yukari then that would mean that there's a unknown third party responsible for her no longer being able to time jump.  Whatever it was it would have been present both at the shrine and at the moon.  The question is what was so powerful or so important that she either lost the ability to jump through time or chose to no longer to?

Not really? Where do you get the idea that a third party was required to begin with, never mind why they'd have to be at the shrine and moon?

[Tiamat]

Yea, the ONLY piece to the Maribel puzzle we're missing right now is the event that traps her back in time. Even that piece has been explicitly stated by a Lunarian that it's possible.  How is it a leap of logic to say Maribel went back in time to become Yukari when it's been stated that such a thing is possible and when Mari's shown the ability to time-travel, already?

There are a lot of specifics to that puzzle piece we also don't know (was it voluntary? Involuntary? Can she return or not? etc etc), but all of them are irrelevant to main question of if Maribel is Yukari or not.

If I recall correctly, the other "leap of logic" that people claimed was the leap of logic that Maribel's powers would evolve into Yukari's. These people apparently decided to ignore the blatant statement by Renko in Changeability of Strange Dream that her powers were evolving into "the ability to manipulate boundaries" or brushed off by the nay-sayers as speculation by Renko with no proof. But it's more than obvious NOW that her powers are getting stronger and evolving, so that "leap of logic" is pretty much 100% confirmed to be true.  ....but now we're all going to start repeating ourselves and I'm going to have to deal with reading ridiculous leap-of-logic stuff like "Oh, her powers are evolving in a different way than Yukari's so that's proof that Maribel isn't Yukari!!!!" and stuff like that. Sigh.

[Drake]

"Oh, her powers are evolving in a different way than Yukari's so that's proof that Maribel isn't Yukari!!!!"

answer: no they aren't

[the old guy]

Oh yeah, and I forgot that I have a theory that hasn't been covered yet. I've forgotten almost all of PMiSS so maybe there's something in there that outright refutes this, but my theory is that Yukari creates Yuyuko's servants (Youki and Youmu that we know of) by tampering with the Konpaku family's children while they're still in the womb. She manipulates their border of life and death to create beings that can comfortably live in the netherworld but who can freely travel to the world of the living on errands, possibly with the added bonus that their freakiness will make them want to isolate themselves, and therefore be more inclined to be willing to hang out with Yuyuko instead of living normal lives. That's why we've never seen any other examples of the things that Youmu and Youki are, and as far as we know it isn't fully hereditary because it seems to have skipped a generation. Yukari passed over Youki's child or children because he was still fit to serve Yuyuko, but altered Youmu because he was getting old enough that he may need a replacement soon.

I don't have a ton to back it up aside from the fact that Yukari and Yuyuko are pals, it's awfully convenient that Yuyuko was able to find beings that are willing to be her servants and who also happen to have perfect physical qualities to do that, and their nature could be interpreted as the manipulation of some kind of border (because what can't?). Again, for all I know there's some huge detail just hanging out in open canon that completes derails this, but it was a thought that I had and it seems to make sense from what I know.

This is a cool theory, and if i used it in a fanfic (Assuming i ever write any.) i would totally credit you, but there is one contraction i can find:

　Youki Konpaku is like a stubborn old man.
　He is Youmu's old man, and moreover her shishou.
　He is not a good-natured old man, possessing dignity and arms that are difficult to get near,
　and was a guard who was hired and replied upon by the Saigyouji family.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Personal_Memo_on_Youki
"Hired"
This doesn't necessarily contract it, but it may put a small hole in it. In that 1. He may have been around longer than it looked (Saigyouji family, not just Yuyuko) E.G. When Yuyuko was alive, and 2. He may have been chosen because of his half-ghostness, instead of Yukari planing him from before his birth (Or Both).
Not really big contractions, but just a thought.

[uc9]

Yea, the ONLY piece to the Maribel puzzle we're missing right now is the event that traps her back in time. Even that piece has been explicitly stated by a Lunarian that it's possible.  How is it a leap of logic to say Maribel went back in time to become Yukari when it's been stated that such a thing is possible and when Mari's shown the ability to time-travel, already?

There are a lot of specifics to that puzzle piece we also don't know (was it voluntary? Involuntary? Can she return or not? etc etc), but all of them are irrelevant to main question of if Maribel is Yukari or not.

If I recall correctly, the other "leap of logic" that people claimed was the leap of logic that Maribel's powers would evolve into Yukari's. These people apparently decided to ignore the blatant statement by Renko in Changeability of Strange Dream that her powers were evolving into "the ability to manipulate boundaries" or brushed off by the nay-sayers as speculation by Renko with no proof. But it's more than obvious NOW that her powers are getting stronger and evolving, so that "leap of logic" is pretty much 100% confirmed to be true.  ....but now we're all going to start repeating ourselves and I'm going to have to deal with reading ridiculous leap-of-logic stuff like "Oh, her powers are evolving in a different way than Yukari's so that's proof that Maribel isn't Yukari!!!!" and stuff like that. Sigh.

Considering that maribel can time jump into the same time line without the creation of another time line is a direct contradiction to the idea that she can't or won't become yukari.  What I mean by that if time travel in the real world is possible then more than likely you would just create a parallel time line instead of actually changing this time line.  Maribel's powers to directly violate this means her powers is extremely similar to yukari's.  When you break both of their powers down it's pretty much the manipulation of spacetime and while yes I am aware that space and time may be different all together it's been extremely hard for people to try to prove they're entirely separate of each other all together.  People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

Not really? Where do you get the idea that a third party was required to begin with, never mind why they'd have to be at the shrine and moon?

Hypothetically if maribel is yukari then something she saw at the shrine sent her down the path of becoming yukari and once again when she travelled to the moon in the past she saw that something.

If she is yukari and had never saw whatever it was a the shrine then she wouldn't have gone down the path of becoming yukari.  It doesn't have to be a person or such, rather those two occasions when she once visited the shrine and once when she visited the moon were key points in the time line.  The question is what happened during those two key events?  Obviously something massively important happened, but nothing is known about what she saw.

Until we learn what happened at the shrine I'm going to sarcastically chalk it up to gremlins.

[Drake]

Hypothetically if maribel is yukari then something she saw at the shrine sent her down the path of becoming yukari and once again when she travelled to the moon in the past she saw that something.
No? Where  are you getting this from?

If she is yukari and had never saw whatever it was a the shrine then she wouldn't have gone down the path of becoming yukari. 
Says who?

It doesn't have to be a person or such, rather those two occasions when she once visited the shrine and once when she visited the moon were key points in the time line.
Why would you think that?

The question is what happened during those two key events?  Obviously something massively important happened, but nothing is known about what she saw.
Where are you getting this from? Why are you assuming that these things caused her to "become" Yukari? What?