The Theory Thread

[Drake]

"There are no contradictions" doesn't give you license to assume what's in the gaps. There's a difference between using the gap in knowledge to supplant what you like, and actually assuming that it's true. We have no reason (besides "some tengu act like hermits") to say that non-humans can become hermits, and the text about hermits we do have only talks about it in terms of humans, not in general. Plus as I've said youkai actually becoming hermits doesn't make much sense given what's stated about hermits. I'm not saying only humans can become hermits and this is definitely the case, just that this seems to be what we currently have, and assuming more is unwarranted.

[Sagus]

Kanako says this in that article I linked:

I'm aware of that. It's from where I got that she thinks the place reaches the mantle.

I'm still curious as to where it's "implied" that Former Hell is another world, as the wiki says. If I can't find anything, I think I'll suggest removing that part.

[Tengukami]

I'm still curious as to where it's "implied" that Former Hell is another world, as the wiki says. If I can't find anything, I think I'll suggest removing that part.

Yes. With all due respect for the hard work the Wiki editors do over there, the site is becoming more like TVT all the time. This is not the same as saying that TVT is "worse" or "better". They're just two different sites. "Implications" and "it is hinted at that" and "this very similar thing in Japanese folklore says X, so it's probably true of Gensokyo" shouldn't be on a wiki.

The wiki and TVT are secondary sources; they cite primary sources - i.e., the game dialogues, official manga and other official works - for what they contend in their pages. But, just like Wikipedia, how the information in a primary source is portrayed is up to the discretion of the editors of the secondary source.

In other words, it's always best to go to the primary source for head-scratchers like this.

[Imosa]

Drake is right about the humans. Unless a youkai can be confirmed to be a hermit, then we can't say for sure that it can happen. I say I think youkai can be hermits but only because that seems very reasonable to me. However, I don't forget the part that this has never actually been confirmed.

The situation is similar to Hell being outside of Gensokyo. I'm not sure where I got that Old Hell, New Hell, Bavah Agra, of Yuyuko's place were not part of Gensokyo but it makes sense. cuc pointed out that Parsee guards the bridge between the mortal world and the underworld. Here's a thing. People from our world still got into old hell, so unless people got into Gesoskyo that would have to be resolved.

Sounds like there might be some ZUN-worthy questions here.

[Sagus]

Well, the Netherworld is explicitly  not to a part of Gensokyo; it's why Yukari had to manipulate the border between them in the first place.

All the others are listed as "Outside Gensokyo" in the wiki. I suppose it follows the logic of "if parts of the afterlife, like Higan and the Netherworld, are known to be outside of Gensokyo, then the other parts probably are as well"

[Prime32]

That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnation

Not quite.

There's two types of celestials in Touhou: the ones in Heaven have physical bodies, and the ones in Nirvana are spirits that can possess people. While entering Nirvana is considered the end-goal (i.e. enlightenment) in Theravada Buddhism, in Mahayana Buddhism (the main type in Japan) it's still considered part of the cycle and there's one or two steps after. Also if someone's transcended the cycle of reincarnation and become a Buddha, I don't think it's possible to drag them back against their will (though I could be wrong on this).

[Starxsword]

"There are no contradictions" doesn't give you license to assume what's in the gaps. There's a difference between using the gap in knowledge to supplant what you like, and actually assuming that it's true.

That's true, that alone won't be enough to assume otherwise. However, given that Chinese and Japanese lore indicate that non-humans can become hermits and that there are no contradictions. I would assume non-humans can become hermits, instead of assuming only humans can become hermits.
Of course, that is not saying that it is true, both of these are just assumptions, as there is no actual confirmation.

Well, the Netherworld is explicitly  not to a part of Gensokyo; it's why Yukari had to manipulate the border between them in the first place.

Yeah, the Netherworld is not part of Gensokyo. Ever since the barrier is weakened, part of it is in Gensokyo. That is pretty much the part where Reimu and co. went to to get to the Netherworld.

I have also thought that Yukari is the one that weakened the Netherworld barrier, but it is actually Yuyuko who did it.

Also, the Netherworld is supposedly bigger than hell, which is HUGE. Hell being supposedly 40,000 Yojana deep or 280,000 kilometers.

[Sagus]

I have also thought that Yukari is the one that weakened the Netherworld barrier, but it is actually Yuyuko who did it.

Ah, true, Yuyuko just asked Yukari to fix it after the main events.

[Clarste]

The wiki and TVT are secondary sources; they cite primary sources - i.e., the game dialogues, official manga and other official works - for what they contend in their pages. But, just like Wikipedia, how the information in a primary source is portrayed is up to the discretion of the editors of the secondary source.

In other words, it's always best to go to the primary source for head-scratchers like this.

Yeah, people citing the wiki for information instead of the original texts that happen to be hosted on the wiki has made me rage on several occasions. Although, um... most of the problems on TVT come from people reading the wiki and then putting that stuff on TVT. Not to assign blame or anything, but that's a recurring problem we have.

Drake is right about the humans. Unless a youkai can be confirmed to be a hermit, then we can't say for sure that it can happen. I say I think youkai can be hermits but only because that seems very reasonable to me. However, I don't forget the part that this has never actually been confirmed.

I agree that it's not confirmed, but I think the default stance some people are taking is incorrect. Byakuren's comment in SoPM strongly implies that it's possible for tengu to become hermits, and none of the people attending seem at all surprised or confused. Whether or not any tengu in Gensokyo are actually hermits is irrelevant: it's just a fact that youkai becoming hermits doesn't sound that unusual to them. So while it's not proven that they can be, I think the neutral stance on the matter should be "maybe they can" instead of "they probably can't".

The situation is similar to Hell being outside of Gensokyo. I'm not sure where I got that Old Hell, New Hell, Bavah Agra, of Yuyuko's place were not part of Gensokyo but it makes sense. cuc pointed out that Parsee guards the bridge between the mortal world and the underworld. Here's a thing. People from our world still got into old hell, so unless people got into Gesoskyo that would have to be resolved.

Sounds like there might be some ZUN-worthy questions here.

I've always thought it was just literally underground. It seems directly connected to Gensokyo in terms of physical paths and geysers and whatnot. If it's "another world" then I think the definition of that terms itself comes into question. I mean, is China "another world" from Japan? That seems like an odd thing to say.

[Drake]

That's true, that alone won't be enough to assume otherwise. However, given that Chinese and Japanese lore indicate that non-humans can become hermits and that there are no contradictions. I would assume non-humans can become hermits, instead of assuming only humans can become hermits.
Of course, that is not saying that it is true, both of these are just assumptions, as there is no actual confirmation.

No. A type of youkai having a trait in folklore does not imply it holds for Gensokyo's youkai unless there is any sort of confirmation of it. I don't see why you would go the extra step when we have no reason to believe it's true. You should be holding the null hypothesis that (as far as we know) only humans can become hermits because that is all the information available to us. We don't know if non-humans can or cannot, and so assuming either is too much.

"maybe they can" instead of "they probably can't"

Exactly.

[Imosa]

No. A type of youkai having a trait in folklore does not imply it holds for Gensokyo's youkai unless there is any sort of confirmation of it. I don't see why you would go the extra step when we have no reason to believe it's true. You should be holding the null hypothesis that (as far as we know) only humans can become hermits because that is all the information available to us. We don't know if non-humans can or cannot, and so assuming either is too much.

Ok, I think we're all being reasonable here. Drake I think everyone can agree on the, "Maybe they can, maybe they can't" idea. At this point I think Clarste talking about "What if they did".

[Malyszeq]

Okay, now two things bug me for some time, the first one is rather silly, the second one not so much.

Why exactly is Yumemi's theme called "Strawberry Crisis"? I didn;t find in the story or profile translations any actual reference to problems with fruit in her world, and Renko and Maribel stories with their artificial fruit in Outside World, came a long after that. My theory is that the world that Yumemi and Chiyuri come from actually IS The Outside World, however unnamed at that time - something like a rough draft of an idea ZUN made so important later on.

The second is Yukari's gaps, and what we see in them. They're creepy in a really disturbing way, full of eyes, hands... Why do they look so... otherworldly? I think that this might be either Yukari's true youkai form, too impossible to comprehend for any mortal, or a reference to her as a Laplace Demon. I'd like to hear some more theories on those two matters

[ToyoRai]

On the first theory, I do find likely that Yumemi and Chiyuri might have come from Human World just because.

On the second theory, I always find that they eyes inside the boundary are just gap openings. The gap entrances are somewaht eye-shaped and this is really notable with her Magic Eye "Laplace's Demon" spellcard, where she creates multiple gaps with purple "irises" on them.

[Drake]

I theorize that the eyes have no purpose whatsoever and are just there to be creepy.

[Starxsword]

My theory is that the world that Yumemi and Chiyuri come from actually IS The Outside World,

Weren't they in a different dimension where they have a grand unified theory? Or am I thinking of someone else?

[Malyszeq]

That's true but in Renko and Maribel's world a Grand Unified Theory was also presented.

[TrueShadow]

Okay, now two things bug me for some time, the first one is rather silly, the second one not so much.

Why exactly is Yumemi's theme called "Strawberry Crisis"? I didn;t find in the story or profile translations any actual reference to problems with fruit in her world, and Renko and Maribel stories with their artificial fruit in Outside World, came a long after that. My theory is that the world that Yumemi and Chiyuri come from actually IS The Outside World, however unnamed at that time - something like a rough draft of an idea ZUN made so important later on.

I've personally believed that Yumemi and Chiyuri did come from the same world as Maribel and Renko, although unknown if they're from the same timeframe. For all we know, Chiyuri might be their classmate and Yumemi their professor.

As for Yumemi's stage theme...maybe because she loves natural strawberries and dislikes artificial strawberries. With natural strawberries getting rare to find (a crisis!), she gets worried so she begins to research magic to go to a world where she can find natural strawberries? Crack theory is cracK :V

The second is Yukari's gaps, and what we see in them. They're creepy in a really disturbing way, full of eyes, hands... Why do they look so... otherworldly? I think that this might be either Yukari's true youkai form, too impossible to comprehend for any mortal, or a reference to her as a Laplace Demon. I'd like to hear some more theories on those two matters

If you look at her PCB portrait, the gaps also have hands.
I kinda like the idea that Yukari's true form is an Eldritch Abomination and that she's using her old human body from when she was known as Maribel as an avatar in Gensokyo. And those eyes are glimpses of her true form

[Tiamat]

Yumemi comes from a world that's having environmental problems (confirmed in her ending) and the grand unified theory has been established. She states to Reimu that she's a human just like Reimu is.

Maribel comes from a world that's having environmental problems and the grand unified theory has been established. She's a human, just like Reimu is.

Both have a university theme going on, along with several other suspicious conidences (Chiyuri's title is Sailor that Travels Through Time, or something like that, and various dialogues imply the two are no strangers to time travelling).

If Yumemi and Chiyuri and PC-98 exist within Windows canon, I think it's a given that the two come from Maribel's world (which is the outside world), although possibly not the exact same time frame (but around it).

Alternatively, if PC-98 is to be ignored, then like many other PC-98 things, ZUN probably simply took many aspects of Yumemi and Chiyuri, as well as their background, and ported it over to Maribel and her world (which of course is our Outside World in the future).

[Forte Blackadder]

What I know about "sukima" isn't that much, but I talked with some people and it looks like they didn't really know. So here: (please disregard this if you already knew... I... I didn't read the whole topic, sorry XD)

A gap youkai can be varied, however some most famous stories are they were originally a female human. Due to an accident, or a crime, she was trapped inside a solid surface that accidentally has a gap that allows her to breath. It could be a wall, a pile of rocks,... The girl experienced fear, hopelessness, trauma and many things more. Her mind is pretty fucked up after that thus force her into a youkai. Her purpose can be revenge or just pulling people inside the gaps, like how drown people tries to get help and unconsciously kill others with them.

In the old time, this youkai was created after a landslide, people heard things from the crevices and made her up. Urban versions had her murdered and shoved into a wall. All of them are the same at the point of the "sukima" is invincible. She can be anywhere as long as there is a gap. And well, everywhere has gaps, you can't deny that. Even if you tried to sleep, there is a gap betweet your body and the blanket. Event if you run into a complete empty room with no door, no window, or in a ball that has no gap, there is a gap between your fingers, your lips,... You can't escape from a sukima once she's got eye on you. You can't defend against her, that's the whole point and why sukima should be so scary.

Because of her original death, getting crushed and pressed inside those wall/rocks, sukima's body is pretty much deformed. And her mental state won't help making her look any better. I think that somehow explain the things inside Yukari's gaps.

[Raikaria]

I have also thought that Yukari is the one that weakened the Netherworld barrier, but it is actually Yuyuko who did it.

Wasn't it that Yuyuko asked for Yukari to weaken it, and Yukari did so knowing Yuyuko's plan wouldn't work anyway?

[Sagus]

You'd think so, but if you read Yukari's PCB profile:

"The next time she woke up, she received a request from Yuyuko asking her to restore the boundary between the world of the living and the world of the dead. It was a ridiculous request since Yuyuko was the one who weakened it to begin with, so Yukari rubbed the sleep from her eyes and set out for repairs."

[Drake]

I like the tone from the original quote better because it's basically Yukari going "you're the one who weakened it screw you"

[Zil]

It's silly to go into it, but anyway, about Yumemi and Chiyuri, their dimension supposedly has a near identical version of each inhabitant of Gensokyo, hence Chiyuri's story. I don't think it's the "outside world" of the current canon. They shouldn't be compared anyway. I doubt ZUN had the current universe in mind when he made the PC-98 games.

IIRC, there's no mention of time travel. It's just a motif. They came from another dimension, not the future.

[Tiamat]

It's silly to go into it, but anyway, about Yumemi and Chiyuri, their dimension supposedly has a near identical version of each inhabitant of Gensokyo, hence Chiyuri's story. I don't think it's the "outside world" of the current canon. They shouldn't be compared anyway. I doubt ZUN had the current universe in mind when he made the PC-98 games.

IIRC, there's no mention of time travel. It's just a motif. They came from another dimension, not the future.

I myself lean towards that PC-98's canon should generally be ignored unless brought up in the windows series (and even then, only paid attention to loosely), like with the case of Alice, Yuuka, Makai, and the evil spirit that once took over the Hakurei shrine, but I think ZUN keeps it purposefully vague on the oft chance that someone wants to pretend they exist in the same continuity anyways, even though he himself no longer cares about the PC-98 past.  In this particular case, the actual truth I believe is that Gensokyo was an entire separate parallel dimension during the PC-98 days, and ZUN decided to retcon it into being a simple mini-extra dimension within the real world instead of a parallel one, instead. Yumemi's own dimension, which was also a parallel dimension to our world, was thus retconned out of existance but either used as the basis for our world in the near future, or our world in the near future contained a bunch of similarities to Yumemi's world as a throw-back. One or the other.

However, that's assuming you're going with PC-98 not being canon. If PC-98 IS canon, then Genskyo can't be a paralell dimension at all, and the only way to really reconcile this is to say that ZUN dun goofed, and thus Yumemi's world being the outside world of the near future becomes a lot more plausible, if only because you're forced to ignore the various glaring contradictions that require Gensokyo being a parallel dimension in the first place.

As for the time travel, Chiyuri does say "We'll be historic criminals!" after Yumemi threatens to blow the world up. ....but of course that's just a translation and interpretable in several ways. The context could have nothing to do with time travel at all.

[TrueShadow]

It's silly to go into it, but anyway, about Yumemi and Chiyuri, their dimension supposedly has a near identical version of each inhabitant of Gensokyo, hence Chiyuri's story. I don't think it's the "outside world" of the current canon. They shouldn't be compared anyway. I doubt ZUN had the current universe in mind when he made the PC-98 games.

IIRC, there's no mention of time travel. It's just a motif. They came from another dimension, not the future.

If Yumemi's world is our world in the future (and quite likely quite a bit faraway), then maybe Outside!Chiyuri is the reincarnation of Gensokyo!Chiyuri? I think there's enough time gap allowing her soul to be reincarnated.

[Raikaria]

OK; this is a long-time revival; but it's:

A: On topic; and the thread is still perfectly relevant; as people can come up with new theories.
B: My thread. I don't see a point making a new thread about a new theory when I've already made a thread FOR THEORIES
C: HM and DDC are out!

Anyway; I was thinking about Alice; and why she has such an attachment to dolls.

Alice creates dolls; and cares for them greatly it seems [Despite using them as weapons and filling them with gunpowder; her attacks descriptions usually say she cares for them]. Alice's ultimate goal is to create a doll with a soul; which is basically the creation of life.

Now look at Shinki. Her power is explicitly creation; and she claims to have created everything within Makai; which would include the life. We also know she is likly like a mother figure to Alice; Alice was especially angered when Shinki was defeated [EX-Stage].

Alice creates dolls with the aim to create a living doll with a soul because she is attempting to imitate Shinki. She wants to be like her 'mother'.

Now bear in mind this; Alice is a recluse in canon; living alone in the Forest of Magic. She had been separated from her homeland; from Shinki; and her 'family'. So she could also be so obsessed with her dolls and her goal because of the void left by losing her family in Makai. Abandonment issues. Remember; Alice looked far younger in Mystic Square.

So Alice possibly suffers abandonment issues and is possibly attempting to fill the void by attempting to be like Shinki herself. It's quite depressing when you think about it. And since she was seemingly so young when she left Makai; it's all she really knows how to do; to imitate what her 'mother' did.

[Drake]

Pretty sure that's been a common theory for basically forever, actually.

[Damien]

My theory : One of the japanese folklore character, Kiyohime, is possibly related or even have a sibling relation with the Watatsuki Sister.  An unwanted child of the Watatsuki family, so she may have been abandoned by her parents on earth and adopted by the village headman. She also turned into serpent/dragon when angered (which increase the possibility of relation to the Watatsumi Dragon God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime

[Alcoraiden]

What I know about "sukima" isn't that much, but I talked with some people and it looks like they didn't really know. So here: (please disregard this if you already knew... I... I didn't read the whole topic, sorry XD)

A gap youkai can be varied, however some most famous stories are they were originally a female human. Due to an accident, or a crime, she was trapped inside a solid surface that accidentally has a gap that allows her to breath. It could be a wall, a pile of rocks,... The girl experienced fear, hopelessness, trauma and many things more. Her mind is pretty fucked up after that thus force her into a youkai. Her purpose can be revenge or just pulling people inside the gaps, like how drown people tries to get help and unconsciously kill others with them.

In the old time, this youkai was created after a landslide, people heard things from the crevices and made her up. Urban versions had her murdered and shoved into a wall. All of them are the same at the point of the "sukima" is invincible. She can be anywhere as long as there is a gap. And well, everywhere has gaps, you can't deny that. Even if you tried to sleep, there is a gap betweet your body and the blanket. Event if you run into a complete empty room with no door, no window, or in a ball that has no gap, there is a gap between your fingers, your lips,... You can't escape from a sukima once she's got eye on you. You can't defend against her, that's the whole point and why sukima should be so scary.

Because of her original death, getting crushed and pressed inside those wall/rocks, sukima's body is pretty much deformed. And her mental state won't help making her look any better. I think that somehow explain the things inside Yukari's gaps.

I really want to know where this comes from, because I can't find anything about Yukari's possible origins on Google, and a friend of mine said he thinks he heard of a possible source but can't manage to find it. Can you tell me where you got this information? Links? Anything? The only thing I can find through a number of search combinations is a creepypasta link.

[Imosa]

My theory : One of the japanese folklore character, Kiyohime, is possibly related or even have a sibling relation with the Watatsuki Sister.  An unwanted child of the Watatsuki family, so she may have been abandoned by her parents on earth and adopted by the village headman. She also turned into serpent/dragon when angered (which increase the possibility of relation to the Watatsumi Dragon God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime

Sorry if I'm missing something. How is Kiyohime related to touhou?