Power of the ladies: How do they work?

[TrueShadow]

ZUN was only consufed during the time he made Sekibanki. Why he didn't change her species, I don't know. Also TrueShadow, why would she have a power what would pretty much counteract her entire species' power? Really weird if you ask me.

Thats why her title is "Strange Rokurokubi"  :V
And as Clarste said, she can also stretch and detach her neck. Regarding the neck made out of danmaku thing, I think it's just ZUN having difficulty actually having the neck be a separate pbject and decides to just use danmaku to make up for it.

I just can't put Terror and Koishi in the same sentence in my mind.

Koishi: Give me all your money! c:
Cashier: Awwwww <3
Koishi: Rawr, I'm a Koishisaur!
Cashier: D'awwwwwwrrrr <3

I just pictured this and it's super adorable  :*
Lawl Koishisaur 

[Starxsword]

I don't think that's the way it works. I imagine that any event, whether they are boring or not, would be forgotten if it was centered around Koishi.

I disagree. Hopeless Masquerade seems to imply otherwise. Characters pick a fight with Koishi, because of her popularity.

So, my guess is that if something were to cause Koishi to be in the foreground, it is unlikely that she would be forgotten.

Why ban it? Just make it a spellcard (something like "God Sign: Amaterasu")

We'll have Yorihime slashing around the screen while Amaterasu spams lasers from the top.

Sounds like Miko's Last Word.

Now thinking some character abilities. I theorize that Remilia's power is kind of like red texting. If anyone has seen or play Umineko before, they should know what this means.
From time to time, she will red text something, and it is going to be the truth.

[Clarste]

I don't think Koishi's ability would be very convenient at all, since it comes with losing the ability to control yourself. She isn't separately creating an aura of unnoticeability, it's a direct effect of her having closed off her mind, even from herself. So while plausibly you could rob a bank with it (Futo didn't even notice her while they were fighting, in Koishi's route), you'd also lose the ability to decide to rob a bank.  It's kind of nightmarish, actually.

[ToyoRai]

I don't think Koishi's ability would be very convenient at all, since it comes with losing the ability to control yourself. She isn't separately creating an aura of unnoticeability, it's a direct effect of her having closed off her mind, even from herself. So while plausibly you could rob a bank with it (Futo didn't even notice her while they were fighting, in Koishi's route), you'd also lose the ability to decide to rob a bank.  It's kind of nightmarish, actually.

Mind you, I think they are talking about Koishi's power on its own rather than Koishi herself. If she had the ability to manipulate subconsious without needing to close her own, she would do anyting she wants.

[Clarste]

Mind you, I think they are talking about Koishi's power on its own rather than Koishi herself. If she had the ability to manipulate subconsious without needing to close her own, she would do anyting she wants.

Well, at that point, you're no longer talking about her power. Although to be fair, that's how most of the characters' powers are usually interpreted. Fans read "power over X" and take it literally, when usually it's quite specific.

Also, "abilities are self-reported". That one footnote explained so much.

[ToyoRai]

Well, at that point, you're no longer talking about her power. Although to be fair, that's how most of the characters' powers are usually interpreted. Fans read "power over X" and take it literally, when usually it's quite specific.

Also, "abilities are self-reported". That one footnote explained so much.

I am saying how I see it. The discussion about Koishi's powers seemed to be more about her pwoers itself rather than Koishi and her relation with her powers. I had no part on it, so don't blame me.

And if that one part was aimed at me, I know that. I know that not all of Akyuu's writing is 100% true and shouldn't taken as the final answer to everything.

[ShiroiMahotsukai]

Now thinking some character abilities. I theorize that Remilia's power is kind of like red texting. If anyone has seen or play Umineko before, they should know what this means.
From time to time, she will red text something, and it is going to be the truth.

I tend to compare Remilia's powers with Ta'veren from the Wheel of Time, the world twists around her, and coincidence reaches out to absurdity. Whether good or bad it just happens. I now imagine a sitcom involving the SDM family trying not to get swept up in Remilia's whirlpool of coincidence. Like Chance in a Millionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_in_a_million

Red Texting is an interesting idea I hadn't thought of. I now want to see Remilia as Beatrice and Reimu as Battler in a fangame or something. It would be awesome.

[Clarste]

And if that one part was aimed at me, I know that. I know that not all of Akyuu's writing is 100% true and shouldn't taken as the final answer to everything.

That last line had nothing to do with Akyuu or her reliability (frankly I think she's quite reliable because it's obvious when she's not). It's just a fact that abilities are self-reported. The "title" of the ability, in the form of "enough power to X", is chosen by the person in question, and submitted to Akyuu (and happens to be exactly the same as what we see in their profiles). It says more about the character's personality and how they see themselves than it does about how the power works. It's like a self-introduction.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I disagree. Hopeless Masquerade seems to imply otherwise. Characters pick a fight with Koishi, because of her popularity.

So, my guess is that if something were to cause Koishi to be in the foreground, it is unlikely that she would be forgotten.

Well... I was merely basing my explanation through SoPM's text. More specifically through this quote:

心が読めないせいで嫌われる事は無くなったが、自分の心もすっからかんなので、誰からも好かれなくなってしまった。視界に入らない限り存在感が無い。ややもすれば彼女が目に映っていても、存在していない様に思ってしまうだろう（＊1）。視界から消えれば、すぐに忘れ去られてしまう。

Since she cannot read minds, there is no longer any reason for others to hate her, but since her own mind is completely empty, she can no longer be liked by anyone either. Her presence cannot be felt by anyone unless she has entered their direct field of vision. And even if one can see her with their eyes, she will still be thought of as non-existent(*1). When she leaves one's sight, she is immediately forgotten.

If characters picks fights with Koishi because of her popularity, then that means she was indeed not forgotten, which makes the above passage contradictory. So I don't know anymore.

Now thinking some character abilities. I theorize that Remilia's power is kind of like red texting. If anyone has seen or play Umineko before, they should know what this means.
From time to time, she will red text something, and it is going to be the truth.

Have Remilia ever actually used her powers?

I know that she can manipulate fate, but I've never seen a situation that made it explicit that she used said power. The only thing I've really seen her using was Red Magic, the Gungnir spear and things of the nature.

I am saying how I see it. The discussion about Koishi's powers seemed to be more about her pwoers itself rather than Koishi and her relation with her powers.

Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind while discussing Koishi's ability.

[Sagus]

Have Remilia ever actually used her powers?

Maybe yes, maybe not. It's really unknown. Akyuu speculates on her "Sakuya was a vampire hunter" theory that she used it on Sakuya ("The vampire, wanting Sakuya's power for herself, spared her and gave her a new name, which also gave her a completely opposite fate"). And in Remilia's profile, there was commentary from a dude that got badly hurt and was helped by someone in the SDM; Akyuu mentions that maybe his fate of "dying like an animal" was altered (with a footnote even saying that "epending on how she changed fate, you might even become a half-human, half-youkai").

[Clarste]

If characters picks fights with Koishi because of her popularity, then that means she was indeed not forgotten, which makes the above passage contradictory. So I don't know anymore.

Hopeless Masquerade is special because Koishi has Kokoro's mask of hope. Which she picked up some time before the story started. So technically she's borrowing a facet of Kokoro's power to become popular. Her ending explicitly tells us that

Spoiler:

it would be impossible otherwise (ie: she will revert back to her normal state if/when she loses the mask).

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Hopeless Masquerade is special because Koishi has Kokoro's mask of hope. Which she picked up some time before the story started. So technically she's borrowing a facet of Kokoro's power to become popular. Her ending explicitly tells us that

Spoiler:

it would be impossible otherwise (ie: she will revert back to her normal state if/when she loses the mask).

Alright, then that means my reasoning wasn't wrong after all. The basic idea is that she will always be forgotten, regardless of how meaningful the event she made part of was.

[Starxsword]

Red Texting is an interesting idea I hadn't thought of. I now want to see Remilia as Beatrice and Reimu as Battler in a fangame or something. It would be awesome.

Yeah, I only thought of that recently, but I wonder why I haven't seen examples of this before. Red text is different from fate manipulation, but they are both truths.

Have Remilia ever actually used her powers?

I know that she can manipulate fate, but I've never seen a situation that made it explicit that she used said power. The only thing I've really seen her using was Red Magic, the Gungnir spear and things of the nature.

No, we never see that. We only see reported events of what could be Remilia using her powers. For what its worth, Remilia always gets what she wants in the mangas, 3 Fairies, Silent Sinner in Blue, etc.

If characters picks fights with Koishi because of her popularity, then that means she was indeed not forgotten, which makes the above passage contradictory. So I don't know anymore.

I'm thinking more on the lines of her being not memorable and having no presence. So, while you can visibly see her, you wouldn't notice her, because of her lack of presence. You also don't remember her, because it is ordinary, kind of like trying to remember what you ate a week ago? If it isn't anything special, you probably don't remember.

However, when she was popular that is not true anymore. So, even if she doesn't have a presence and would not normally stand out, her popularity is making her stand out.

Hopeless Masquerade is special because Koishi has Kokoro's mask of hope. Which she picked up some time before the story started. So technically she's borrowing a facet of Kokoro's power to become popular. Her ending explicitly tells us that

I don't agree with the idea that her normal state will cause her to be forgotten. This is how I see it, the mask of hope allowed her to have emotions, but it did not cause her to have any more presence. What I mean is that it gave her hope, but it doesn't make her any less forgettable.
I believe this is the case, because none of the characters could see her. However, when she got popular, other characters were specifically looking for her. So, whether she has a presence or not would not stop them from finding her.
As Koishi's story goes along, she gets more popular. After Futo, quite a bit of people were able to see her.

Edit: I should not say none, since the final boss was able to find Koishi during the final boss's route.

[lightdreamer]

No, we never see that. We only see reported events of what could be Remilia using her powers. For what its worth, Remilia always gets what she wants in the mangas, 3 Fairies, Silent Sinner in Blue, etc.

Huh, really? Her invasion failed and she got beaten up in SSiB.

[Clarste]

Huh, really? Her invasion failed and she got beaten up in SSiB.

She got to go the moon, experience a fun fight, visit the sea, and came out of it with a pool party. It really depends on what her goals are, doesn't it? I mean, if she wasn't at the center of everyone else's manipulations she would have spent all that time sitting around being bored instead.

[ToyoRai]

Question, can Mamizou's power allow her to alter matter a bit? One of her moves in HM is her taking a page from SMB3 and transforming into a statue to slam down into her opponent. And considering that she comes out of the statue it means she really did transform into a statue. Also, she once transformed int a bonfire, but I doubt she would mimic the heat of it.

[Clarste]

Question, can Mamizou's power allow her to alter matter a bit? One of her moves in HM is her taking a page from SMB3 and transforming into a statue to slam down into her opponent. And considering that she comes out of the statue it means she really did transform into a statue. Also, she once transformed int a bonfire, but I doubt she would mimic the heat of it.

Her SoPM profile claims that she can't change the properties of anything, so it's fundamentally just an illusion. Well, it's not like falling on top of someone wouldn't hurt, statue or not. I think a more troubling ability would be her teapot spellcard. But, gameplay aside, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be 100% illusion. I doubt she can even change the real size or shape of things.

[Drake]

taking a page from SMB3

no :I

It's really "just" disguising rather than a full-on transformation, so how exactly she ends up smashing the opponent as a statue is questionable (her feet? what about the onsen? teapot???). It certainly isn't a trick of the light or anything like that, but she does have certain giveaways i.e. ears, leaf, smell, so it's a bit difficult to say what really happens. EDIT: Until further information I'm going to side with Clarste and say it's just an illusion of sorts.
In any case I wouldn't start talking about matter and whatnot. It lends to wild extrapolation and :science:.

[ToyoRai]

Moving on, another thing what wonders me is that can how many thingsshe can really change the appearance of? Like, MamiReimu's spellcard in HM has her flying around while dropping Yin Yang Orbs. Mind you, those are pretty much exclusive to Reimu, So does Mamizou actually just use normal large danmaku but changes it to appear like Yin Yang Orbs? and what else can she do with it? Can she make water look like wine just to give silly example?

[Clarste]

Moving on, another thing what wonders me is that can how many thingsshe can really change the appearance of? Like, MamiReimu's spellcard in HM has her flying around while dropping Yin Yang Orbs. Mind you, those are pretty much exclusive to Reimu, So does Mamizou actually just use normal large danmaku but changes it to appear like Yin Yang Orbs? and what else can she do with it? Can she make water look like wine just to give silly example?

If she can make herself look and feel like a bonfire, then I don't see why she can't do pretty much anything. Subject to her total magical power of course (like I doubt she has particularly long range for it). Akyuu also says she can only change the appearance of things. There has to be something for her illusion to act on. She can't just create hallucinations from nothing.

[Imosa]

She got to go the moon, experience a fun fight, visit the sea, and came out of it with a pool party. It really depends on what her goals are, doesn't it? I mean, if she wasn't at the center of everyone else's manipulations she would have spent all that time sitting around being bored instead.

Yes it does, and for some period of time she wanted to beat Toyohime. When your power is to control fate you don't compromise with yourself on what things you make happen and what you don't, you just keep making yourself win until you're done.

[Sagus]

We're talking about a fight against one of the most powerful beings in the whole setting. Someone who can call the highest gods whenver she wants. Unless Remilia is the goddess of fate, I don't see how she'd change the outcome of that fight.

It's the same old "people confusing 'ability to to the extent of x' with 'absolute control over x'". She can manipulate fate and change the outcome of certain events; she's not, however, omnipotent, and there are likely several constraints on her ability. It's vague, and not likely to ever be fully explained; but it isn't a "she has to be able to manipulate the existance of everyone everywhere at anytime whenever she wants, or else she's lying" deal.

[Imosa]

We're talking about a fight against one of the most powerful beings in the whole setting. Someone who can call the highest gods whenver she wants. Unless Remilia is the goddess of fate, I don't see how she'd change the outcome of that fight.

It's the same old "people confusing 'ability to to the extent of x' with 'absolute control over x'". She can manipulate fate and change the outcome of certain events; she's not, however, omnipotent, and there are likely several constraints on her ability. It's vague, and not likely to ever be fully explained; but it isn't a "she has to be able to manipulate the existance of everyone everywhere at anytime whenever she wants, or else she's lying" deal.

It's a fair point. These absolute statements do throw me for a loop.

[Drake]

Even if Remilia really did have such absolute control, what's more important than her abilities is her desire to actually win. Like I've said before with Reimu against Yorihime, it's entirely possible Remilia does have the power and skill required to defeat Yorihime. But clearly the whole trip to the moon was for enjoyment, and it's pretty obvious she never really cared all that much about winning, regardless of her attitude. The fight was a game, just like with everyone else. Yorihime was the only one that didn't consider it as such.

[Starxsword]

Yes it does, and for some period of time she wanted to beat Toyohime. When your power is to control fate you don't compromise with yourself on what things you make happen and what you don't, you just keep making yourself win until you're done.

You are mistaken if you think Remilia wanted to beat Yorihime, that was not the point of this trip at all. If Remilia did not stop with her barrage of attacks, Yorihime would likely lose. Instead, she stopped, flew around the moon and gave Yorihime plenty of time to recompose herself.
No one who really wants to win would do this. By the way, this is exactly what Yorihime did to Reimu. She never gave Reimu a second chance to do her other shenanigans, after she cleared Reimu's dark summon.

As Drake mentioned, Yorihime did not think this is a game. This is probably because it isn't a game to her. Her duty is to protect the moon from intruders.

[Clarste]

You are mistaken if you think Remilia wanted to beat Yorihime, that was not the point of this trip at all. If Remilia did not stop with her barrage of attacks, Yorihime would likely lose. Instead, she stopped, flew around the moon and gave Yorihime plenty of time to recompose herself.
No one who really wants to win would do this. By the way, this is exactly what Yorihime did to Reimu. She never gave Reimu a second chance to do her other shenanigans, after she cleared Reimu's dark summon.

As Drake mentioned, Yorihime did not think this is a game. This is probably because it isn't a game to her. Her duty is to protect the moon from intruders.

The fact that Reimu literally tried to kill everyone on the moon kind of supports Yorihime's perspective though.

[AnonymousPondScum]

The fact that Reimu literally tried to kill everyone on the moon kind of supports Yorihime's perspective though.

Wait, which part was this?

[ToyoRai]

I think the idea of Remilia having absolute control over fate falls flat then you consider that she could have easily been successful during EoSD. She had a plan to fulfill and would probably have no problem using her powers to make it work. Even if she cannot use it during danmaku battle, she could have, I don't know, made it so that Meiling could have been able to drvie Reimu and Marisa off. That is why I like my idea how Remilia's powers work because it gives reason why she doesn't use her powers outside of excuse that she doesn't want to use them because of, I don't know, boredom.

[Drake]

Wait, which part was this?

The part where she threatened the moon with impurity, which could potentially make the inhabitants impure, which would mean they eventually die.

[AnonymousPondScum]

The part where she threatened the moon with impurity, which could potentially make the inhabitants impure, which would mean they eventually die.

Oooh, okay, right.