Author Topic: Madoka discussion thread  (Read 15764 times)

Imosa

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Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 04:17:50 AM »
Except that it's clearly stated that he can't grant any wish. Judging by how the ending played out, I'd say he actually uses the girl's own power to grant the wish. Or possibly, given that he's a lying liar who lies, it's the girls who grant their own wishes as part of the process of becoming a Puella Magi.
You missed my point. What bothers me is that QB said that he can grant any wish, and nobody saw the glaring problem in this deal. There should have been more investigation by someone. Madoka wanted to help people anyway, so why didn't she consider helping QB?

I always assumed that Homura carries it with her. Since she's so devoted to Madoka, she brings a bit of Madoka with her when she returns. Alternatively, you may have answered this yourself in the fourth question: it's Homura's wish granting itself. Also, Homura's body does persist, otherwise she'd have to re-contract each loop.
You're assumption may work for you, but that doesn't fix the problem in the show. You refute the idea in my 4th point so you can't suggest that as an explanation here. If Homura's body persists then wouldn't she age? I'm going to try and look into this 1000 repeats thing but even if it's less, I think she'd be growing a lot at her age. I'm really fine with this though. So her soul remains separate from her body, and her mind persists. That's fine.
We don't get to see most of those 1000 loops. (It'd be a damn long series if we did) There's nothing to say that she wasn't slowly losing hope over time, in fact it's more than likely that she was. It's highly likely that she's been contemplating giving up for a long time, saying to herself "Just one more try". Even in the "current" loop, if events hadn't unfolded as they did, that she would have changed her mind and gone back once again.
If my idea in point 4 is correct and Homura lost hope gradually as you suggest here, then my idea would have dawned on Homura and she wouldn't have lost hope.
Madoka is as powerful as she is because of all of the pent-up despair hiding inside her, just waiting to be activated by her becoming a Puella Magi. The more despair a Puella Magi has, the more likely they are to turn into a witch. Therefore, even if she becomes powerful enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht as a Puella Magi, she'll be so full of despair that she can't help but become a witch.
Alright.

I don't recall Homura ever saying how many loops she's been through.
Well I'm even more sure she says it was countless times. That sounds like a lot. 

IIRC it was explained that the girl's despair is what determines how large their wish can be, and the nature of the wish determines the girl's power, so the reason Madoka in particular gets more powerful is presumably because her despair somehow gets compounded over each timeline and then her wishes become stronger and stronger. I mean her first wish is to revive a cat and so she's pretty weak; her wish in the recent timeline is presumably to be able to defeat Walpurgis and save Homura, which makes her stupidly powerful. If the timelines act like "parallel" universes, Madoka's despair might end up syncing up and accumulating. But it's really just speculation.
That makes sense. I feel a problem might come out of that but I can't think of it right now.

Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 04:59:05 AM »
As I recall, the potential of a magical girl is determined by the fate she holds?e.g. a girl destined to be a princess has a lot of potential, etc. Madoka was initially an ordinary girl without any special destiny so she was initially a not very strong magical girl, but as Homura kept resetting the timeline specifically to save Madoka, Madoka's destiny compounded and she became stronger with each reset.

Homura's goal is not to stop Walpurgisnacht: it's to change Madoka's fate. All magical girls are destined to die or turn into witches at some point, so Homura is trying to prevent Madoka from contracting at all.

Re: Benign stuff
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 11:15:54 AM »
You missed my point. What bothers me is that QB said that he can grant any wish, and nobody saw the glaring problem in this deal. There should have been more investigation by someone. Madoka wanted to help people anyway, so why didn't she consider helping QB?
Investigation by who? These are schoolgirls we're talking about, they have other things on their minds. Not to mention, Kyubey lies and fudges details so much that they don't actually know what his goals are. And even if someone did ask for a wish he couldn't grant, he probably would have just said that actually he can't do it. he lies, the girls believe him, what's wrong with that?
Quote
You're assumption may work for you, but that doesn't fix the problem in the show. You refute the idea in my 4th point so you can't suggest that as an explanation here.
It all depends how Kyubey interpreted the wish. If "save Madoka" was interpreted as "save Madoka from dying", then technically it was granted the first time she became a witch instead. But since Homura's powers provide the vehicle for the wish, when she kept going, so did it.
Quote
If Homura's body persists then wouldn't she age? I'm going to try and look into this 1000 repeats thing but even if it's less, I think she'd be growing a lot at her age. I'm really fine with this though. So her soul remains separate from her body, and her mind persists. That's fine.
Puella magi are zombies, who says they age.
Quote
If my idea in point 4 is correct and Homura lost hope gradually as you suggest here, then my idea would have dawned on Homura and she wouldn't have lost hope. Alright.
If she's been through that many loops, and there was still no end in sight, I can't see any reason for her not to lose hope.

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 12:31:21 PM »
Kyuubey doesn't lie. Details are omitted because the girls don't read the fine print and ask qiestions when they formed the contract. Kyuubey mentioned it more than once that he omitted a detail because the girls never asked about it. Kyuubey follows the very definition of a contractor in Darker than Black, acts only in a way advantageous to himself and ignores all emotion. The contracts are a system, the girls simply didn't know how to game the system.

Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 01:06:50 PM »
I know. I just simplify "leaves out important information", "makes misleading statements", and "makes use of fallacies in language" to "lies". It's shorter.

Imosa

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 01:48:34 PM »
Investigation by who? These are schoolgirls we're talking about, they have other things on their minds. Not to mention, Kyubey lies and fudges details so much that they don't actually know what his goals are. And even if someone did ask for a wish he couldn't grant, he probably would have just said that actually he can't do it. he lies, the girls believe him, what's wrong with that?
In my original post I tried to stay away from things concerning what these girls could think about, but I'm going to make an exception here. You say they have other things on their minds but they spend plenty of time on this decision. I'm pretty sure Madoka louses sleep, thinking about this.
Kyuubey doesn't lie. Details are omitted because the girls don't read the fine print and ask qiestions when they formed the contract. Kyuubey mentioned it more than once that he omitted a detail because the girls never asked about it. Kyuubey follows the very definition of a contractor in Darker than Black, acts only in a way advantageous to himself and ignores all emotion. The contracts are a system, the girls simply didn't know how to game the system.
Doesn't QB lie to Kyoko in order to make her think she can save Sayaka, causing her to go on a suicide mission, and pushing Madoka toward making a contract. If he can do that, and given just how awesome Madoka is, wouldn't he lie about a lot more?

It all depends how Kyubey interpreted the wish. If "save Madoka" was interpreted as "save Madoka from dying", then technically it was granted the first time she became a witch instead. But since Homura's powers provide the vehicle for the wish, when she kept going, so did it.
I don't think I like all of this wish interpretation business. Homura's wish according to the wiki was "to meet Madoka again, but this time as the one protecting her, not as the one being protected". There doesn't seem to be wiggle room in that for Madoka to become more difficult to protect. I mean, if Madoka wasn't getting more powerful then QB might have even given up on trying to contract her after he got killed the first time, instead focusing on Homura's intrest to stop him.
Puella magi are zombies, who says they age.
Doesn't Kyoko make her contract when she's significantly younger? Also, Mami, perhaps?
If she's been through that many loops, and there was still no end in sight, I can't see any reason for her not to lose hope.
Like I said, it all hinged on the 4th point.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 01:51:06 PM by Imosa »

Serela

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 02:20:49 PM »
Quote
Doesn't QB lie to Kyoko in order to make her think she can save Sayaka, causing her to go on a suicide mission, and pushing Madoka toward making a contract.
IIRC, QB says it's simply never been done before. This seems like it'd be pretty true. Incubators don't even fully understand how it works, and with the nature of the system in itself...

Plus in Kazumi Magica
Spoiler:
they actually somewhat manage to revert a witch back into a magical girl... KINDA SORTA, with questionable but still kind of workable results?

About the previous discussion on Madoka's character; part of the stuff they said was that after Madoka turned into a magical girl, she matured and become a strong (pseronality-wise), responsible individual. But that since Homura prevents it in the anime, it doesn't happen until the end.
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 05:15:19 PM »
About the previous discussion on Madoka's character; part of the stuff they said was that after Madoka turned into a magical girl, she matured and become a strong (pseronality-wise), responsible individual. But that since Homura prevents it in the anime, it doesn't happen until the end.

Even before becoming a magical girl, Madoka shows the frankness and openness I was talking about. This is more clearly shown in A Different Story, where
Spoiler:
she defends Sayaka against Kyouko's criticism, and later approaches Kyouko about making up with Mami, and befriends her.
But it's also visible in the anime. All the other Puellas, at some point or another, hide their feelings because they think the other party won't listen, or they're afraid of what the other party will think:
-Mami hides her reasons for becoming a magical girl from Madoka and Sayaka;
-Sayaka hides her pain from Kyosuke and Hitomi;
-Kyouko hides her own feelings from herself, and convinces herself she's happy to play and eat all the time;
-Homura hides her pain from everyone around her, and convinces herself she doesn't need anyone else.

Madoka may be the weak, useless one of the team, but she does what she can, and that's to face the terrible reality around her without hiding behind pretenses and rationalizations. That takes strength of a different sort, and it's what makes her special among the cast; it's what lets her keep calling out to Sayaka/Homura/Kyouko, and it's what makes the other characters so willing to drop everything to protect her.

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Imosa

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2013, 06:29:23 PM »
-Mami hides her reasons for becoming a magical girl from Madoka and Sayaka;
I don't remember that. I think Mami was fairly honest, saying she didn't have much of a choice in the matter because she would have died otherwise. I do think she hid something, her lonlyness, which is only realized when Madoka offers to fight with her.

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2013, 09:21:54 AM »
Quote
Puella magi are zombies, who says they age.

Actually, they're more like Liches instead of zombies. Zombies lack a brain, and simply follow the simple instinct to eat. Liches are beings who transfer their souls from their bodies to other objects, so they continue to live even if their bodies are destroyed, so long as the object their soul is bound to still exists.

pineyappled

Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2013, 09:26:27 AM »
Actually, they're more like Liches instead of zombies. Zombies lack a brain, and simply follow the simple instinct to eat. Liches are beings who transfer their souls from their bodies to other objects, so they continue to live even if their bodies are destroyed, so long as the object their soul is bound to still exists.
So, Voldemort?

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2013, 12:07:08 AM »
Kazumi 23, where are you.

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2013, 10:14:41 PM »
less talking about Madoka in this post.
I like everyone to know I convinced someone living in the next next next town to set up a Chinese-style outdoor altar along with a little shrine for his God-Madoka figurine by GSC.
Worship shall now commence of our ONE TRUE GOD.

[NEO MADOKA ERA ( YEAR 1 AM* After Madoka) ] Important Holidays
- Madoka's Birthday
- Madoka Ascension into Godhood
- The Homuran Chronicles Recitation
- Black Mami Day
- Madoka New Year
- International Kyubey-Stoning Day
- Mourning of Mami Day
- Homura Homu Homu Holiday
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 10:18:46 PM by ♛ Siri »
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2013, 02:22:15 AM »
less talking about Madoka in this post.
I like everyone to know I convinced someone living in the next next next town to set up a Chinese-style outdoor altar along with a little shrine for his God-Madoka figurine by GSC.
Worship shall now commence of our ONE TRUE GOD.

[NEO MADOKA ERA ( YEAR 1 AM* After Madoka) ] Important Holidays
- Madoka's Birthday
- Madoka Ascension into Godhood
- The Homuran Chronicles Recitation
- Black Mami Day
- Madoka New Year
- International Kyubey-Stoning Day
- Mourning of Mami Day
- Homura Homu Homu Holiday

yo i celebrate meduka's birthday (nsfw) every year

also i approve of the homu homu holiday

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2013, 07:14:18 PM »
It is basically xmas, but with everyone wearing striped pantsu on their heads for Mass.
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GunnerReisen

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2013, 03:16:50 AM »
This anime hit home with me.

At first I was like "meh, Nanoha clone." When episode three happened, I realized that this was no Nanoha clone.

And then I was introduced to Sayaka. I compared myself to her and there is almost no difference in personality. That's when it hit home for me. This anime is really special to me, considering right now I'm going through a mini-Sayaka moment involving love. So I'm a total fangirl of this anime and it's my weak spot. Sayaka-chan is so cute, Mami-san is so cool!
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2013, 06:24:20 PM »
keep watching, Sayaka is the writer's favorite character don't ya know  :derp:

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GunnerReisen

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2013, 12:45:27 AM »
It doesn't seem like it, honestly... xD Really doesn't seem like the writers like anyone... cept maybe Homura.
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2013, 04:50:20 AM »
To actually contribute, I get where you're coming from. I relate to the Madoka girls more than any grown man ever should.

...well, not really, I just like drawing them. But the anime is really special to me too, and I'll tell you why. See, I remember well the winter Madoka came on. It was the coldest and snowiest winter in a long time (forcing Harvard to declare its first snow day in 25 years), I was halfway done with law school, and I was just starting to make my first Space Jam mashups. I remember that from the very start, Shinbo's direction, Kajiura's score, and Gekidan Inu Curry's freaky Witch/labyrinth designs grabbed my interest--and Urobuchi's writing held it firmly. Without any one of those elements, Madoka would've been lost in the tide of disposable moe shows. But together, combined, they made up a world that drew me in like no other anime I can remember. You wouldn't want to live in the Madoka world, but you do want to see the bizarre horrors and the human stories going on under the near-future, crystalline-perfect cityscapes. Same goes for the characters. I wrote upthread about how all the characters but Madoka maintain certain artifices that divide them against each other and ultimately bring them down. This is realistic human behavior, and it invites the viewer to follow along with the girls, try to learn what makes them tick. Madoka wastes zero screen time; every time a character is on screen, you're learning something important about them, whether through what they say, what they don't say, or their body language.

What's really great though is how even after all the suffering, good--or at least less-bad--wins out in the end. Sayaka, Kyouko, and Madoka/Homura (in the lyrics of Magia) aren't wrong when they liken their experiences to the fairy tales they loved so much as children. Madoka is a fairy tale for adults; it's a Hans Christian Andersen original, bittersweet and possessed of a moral clarity. And like any good fairy tale, it captures the imagination and never quite lets it go.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 07:21:13 AM by Charles Barkley, J.D. »

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GunnerReisen

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2013, 04:55:10 AM »
And don't forget... when it wants to be depressing, dear God, I cry rivers. I still don't get why people hate Sayaka-chan so much though...


And have you read Oriko Magica? I have.
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2013, 05:09:20 AM »
Oriko is pretty interesting, but didn't grab me as much because I couldn't relate to the new characters. Yuma lost her relevance to the plot too early, and Kirika was just plain psycho.

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2013, 07:18:43 PM »
Kazumi Magica is the better manga by far. (Though I do love Yuma. She's adorable.) I would love to see that one adapted in OAV form.

GunnerReisen

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 10:51:23 PM »
I liked Kirika's design, powers, and weapons. Too bad it was wasted on a derp character. :l And I liked Kazumi because of Juubey. I love Juubey. He's so adorable. <3 /then again I also thought Kyubey was an interesting character so
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2013, 04:23:24 AM »
I drew something for the Homu Homu Holiday

[nsfw]http://maullart.tumblr.com/post/41580824361/priorities-homura-god-i-cant-leave-you-tied-up[/nsfw]

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2013, 02:24:42 PM »
I drew something for the Homu Homu Holiday

[nsfw]http://maullart.tumblr.com/post/41580824361/priorities-homura-god-i-cant-leave-you-tied-up[/nsfw]

sweet yes!

also

welp, my God Madoka figure smashed.... into tiny pieces and a broken waist
fuck me. I am cursed.
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GunnerReisen

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2013, 03:22:24 PM »
Okay so I don't know if this is true or anything, but apparently ABC aired the first three episodes of Madoka... then stopped. Because of episode 3.
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Serela

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:53 PM »
It seems true, although it's noteworthy that it's the AUSTRAILIAN broadcasting company.

I say it's true, because the show is on their website. http://www.abc.net.au/abc3/shows/13733.htm (With no further showing dates B) )


HOWEVER, it did say on the thingy that they were only giving fans a "sneak peek". This would explain stopping at ep3.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc3/201301/programs/ZX9129A001D2013-01-06T201855.htm
I don't imagine they would be dumb enough to not know what happens in the show.

Listing it as "childrens" is still weird though.

edit:Also worth noting that as far as I can tell they never showed past episode 1.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 05:02:56 PM by Serela »
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2013, 11:00:57 PM »
sweet yes!

also

welp, my God Madoka figure smashed.... into tiny pieces and a broken waist
fuck me. I am cursed.

noooooooooooooo ;;

you know what you must do, get some brass pins and super-glue and primer and paints

you can rebuild her, you have the technology

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Serela

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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2013, 03:33:09 AM »
Also I'm not sure why I didn't link a theatre capture of the third movie trailer before.

It REALLY doesn't reveal much that we didn't already know (That it continued right from the end of the anime was already known) but it's there! o: There's one part where there's a lot of talking but no subtitle; the subtitle might be on the top side for that part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuRiowDsGa8

You can see "Shizuki's Nightmare" half-cut off at the top at one point. (That's Hitomi's last name) Hitomi is mentioned a few times, actually. She might play a more significant role in this.
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Re: Madoka discussion thread
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2013, 06:46:54 AM »
Aaaah. The wiki has the translations of MadoMagi Online Quests 11 and 12 uploaded, just not linked. Had to manipulate the url directly.
So much hype for next quest update aaaaaah