Gensokyo Physics: Youkai of Systems goes insane.

[Delfigamer]

Cirno is baka, ZUN is not. Just deal with it. :3

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Cirno is baka, ZUN is not. Just deal with it. :3

Very well.

[SirChaotick]

Nobody is perfect.

And besides, when did I call Zun a liar? I said it was a "slip" everyone commits slips every now and then, and this is fact. There's no such a thing as "perfection" anywhere. It doesn't matter who you are.

Like any other series, Touhou can also have some flaws/holes. It's not really a negative point. Rather, it's a natural thing.

I think that might have been sarcasm  :V

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I think that might have been sarcasm  :V

Maybeeeee........... maybe not. :V

[Imosa]

Nobody is perfect.

And besides, when did I call Zun a liar? I said it was a "slip" everyone commits slips every now and then, and this is fact. There's no such a thing as "perfection" anywhere. It doesn't matter who you are.

Like any other series, Touhou can also have some flaws/holes. It's not really a negative point. Rather, it's a natural thing.

The problem is that if we start to consider Zun as errant, the entire Touhou universe falls apart. In the same way that if we start to consider our observations as errant, the entire universe falls apart. If I remember correctly, Kepler, while making his model of the solar system with circular orbits, came to a model that had only around 10% error. He could have wrapped his work up there and accepted the model; however, he chose to adhere to the observations and thus created Elliptical orbits which were later independently confirmed by other methods. ZUN is the most trusted source of Touhou knowledge we have, if we question him on this point then we must question him on all points. For example, how did Suika break the heavens? She didn't, ZUN just messed up. End of discussion. The last important point is why can we trust ZUN to give us accurate information on Touhou? Well, we really can't since he is currently our only independent source of information. This entire community is founded with an asterisks noting "Assuming that ZUN gives correct information about Touhou".

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

The problem is that if we start to consider Zun as errant, the entire Touhou universe falls apart.

I hope you're aware that this affirmation can only be applied to Touhou universe right? If that's the case, then yes, everything he says is true, because he is the one that's shaping the world of touhou. But the same can't apply to our real world's theories or myths. Because it was not Zun that shaped them. A negative Kelvin temperature is still hot, and it won't become cold just because Zun said so. If it's in Gensokyo, however, then it would be fair enough if we consider the place might use different physics than the one from our world. Otherwise, we'd still really have to blindly trust him even if he were to say that our Earth is flat, or if Jesus originally came from an east Asian religion...? Just because he is the "God of all creation" ...? That's not how stuff works. And no, a whole universe won't fall apart just because of one or two slips.

For example, how did Suika break the heavens? She didn't, ZUN just messed up. End of discussion.

Well, if this can be applied to Suika's case, then why can't it be applied to what I said earlier ago as well...? Because Zun is such a Self-Righteous person that he can only "mess up" a single time in his life, and everything else he says whatsoever is automatically true, even outside Touhou's universe...? Please, redo your thoughts.

[KLH]

Put simply, Aya is pretty much incomprehensibly fast. She also very, very rarely goes at top speed... simply because at those sorts of speeds... she's cause utter devastation. Not to mention she wouldn't be able to keep those speeds up for long without burning herself to a crisp from air friction


Aya probably can't go anywhere near Mach 10 without harming herself, regardless of how well adapted she is, and Mach 20+ would carry the severe risk of... catching fire, since that's re-entry speed. Her top speed may well be the highest, but that dosen't mean she can achieve it without becoming a fireball. [Or being in space, but that has it's own problems]

The SR-71 flew at Mach 3.2; at this speed, the aircraft's skin was heated well in excess of 300 ?C, and it was still hotter than this upon landing. The SR-71's cockpit needed a powerful air conditioner to protect the occupants from this heat.

Perhaps Aya's ability to manipulate wind can be used to negate air friction, allowing her to fly at higher speed also preventing her from catching on fire. Of course she'll need to have superhuman reflexes if she doesn't want to bump into every tree in her way..

Even if skin friction is removed, there is still wave drag and the associated temperature rises to consider.
Given that Aya isn't exactly aerodynamic, even just Mach 1.3 is really pushing it, with temperatures in excess of at least 75 ?C (and that's assuming that Aya is as remotely aerodynamic as a 30? wedge or cone, which she isn't). The calculator I used to determine this is found here.

Considering this, one could possibly conclude that Aya is immune to heat and can somehow maintain function in such high temperatures, or that the properties of fluids are different in Gensokyo (i.e. it's magic and nobody has to explain shit).

[Drake]

Wait what. The Spell Card is "Minus K". The very notion that you can't have negative Kelvins is the reason for the spell to be named that. It's Cirno. She isn't that bright. That's the point. You don't even need to get to "what if ZUN was wrong". Really, he has made flubs on detailed points before, but even if this were a flub it changes literally nothing about Gensokyo or its consistency.

Magic: Reading the wiki article you posted, it should be affirmed that the contexts of using "minus K" are quite different, so I don't think it's fair to say that there's an error just because the card is called Minus K. Particularly what's said in the lead paragraph: "That a system at negative temperature is hotter than any system at positive temperature is paradoxical if absolute temperature is interpreted as an average internal energy of the system. The paradox is resolved by understanding temperature through its more rigorous definition as the tradeoff between energy and entropy, with the reciprocal of the temperature, thermodynamic beta, as the more fundamental quantity." It's more than likely ZUN isn't aware of an actual definition of negative absolute temperature, but even if he was aware, pointing out that negative absolute temperature of a system is actually hot sounds like more of a side-note than a discrepancy.

[Starxsword]

Considering this, one could possibly conclude that Aya is immune to heat and can somehow maintain function in such high temperatures, or that the properties of fluids are different in Gensokyo (i.e. it's magic and nobody has to explain shit).

I think you are missing my meaning. Aya is a Youkai. Their physiology is functionally different from a human's. For example, Okuu is a Hell Raven and Rin is a Kasha, both can easily function at temperatures way beyond what is normal. They can most likely survive at over 500 degrees Celsius. It is not that Aya is immune to heat, it is more on the lines that Aya isn't human and she doesn't have the same temperature range as a human.

Take for example, when Reimu fights Okuu, you can probably assume temperatures of 200 degrees Celsius and beyond, as they are in the Hell of Blazing Fires and it is very hot there, in addition to Okuu's power up, which makes that area even hotter. How does Reimu survive that? Probably some kind of magic barrier.

I think that can also be explained by the whole index of refraction thing. White Beard creates pressure waves which would change the index of refraction of the air, which might create a shattered effect. As for the whole two step process... I dunno...

It is a 2 step process, because that is how Suika described it. She mentions after shattering the heavens, you can then get to the moon and break it. Now, some things to note for reference. Youmu can steal spring and she is no where near Suika's level of skill. Also, Yukari can do some pretty interesting things with her boundary magic and Suika and Yukari are equals as far as dialogue goes. What I am saying is that there is not much reason to believe an alternate explanation when the normal one makes sense.

[Raikaria]

It's more likely Cirno being Cirno and calling her spellcard something that's impossible because she's the ⑨. She thinks there is such a thing as Minus Kelvin, but there is not.

StB is also after PoFV, so it could legitimately be ZUN playing up the ⑨ gag.

The only physics at work is how stupid Cirno is.

[Delfigamer]

It's more likely Cirno being Cirno and calling her spellcard something that's impossible because she's the ⑨. She thinks there is such a thing as Minus Kelvin, but there is not.

StB is also after PoFV, so it could legitimately be ZUN playing up the ⑨ gag.

The only physics at work is how stupid Cirno is.

I told you so~ ^o^

[haoreos2]

It is a 2 step process, because that is how Suika described it. She mentions after shattering the heavens, you can then get to the moon and break it. What I am saying is that there is not much reason to believe an alternate explanation when the normal one makes sense.

Could you qoute the part where she says it's a two-step process? If it's this part:

Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~

that can be interpreted as a result of the action of tearing open the heavens, like saying "It's easy to break a vase if you drop it off a cliff".


(As an aside, when you mentioned the "moon in the real world", did you mean the actual physical moon sans lunarians and the sea and whatnot, or the reflection?
Destroying the actual, legitimate moon wouldn't make a lick of sense)

[Starxsword]

that can be interpreted as a result of the action of tearing open the heavens, like saying "It's easy to break a vase if you drop it off a cliff".

Why is that the same? If you drop it off the cliff, there is no implication that you could do the action of breaking it.
Yes, I am referring to that quote, where Suika says: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.

(As an aside, when you mentioned the "moon in the real world", did you mean the actual physical moon sans lunarians and the sea and whatnot, or the reflection?
Destroying the actual, legitimate moon wouldn't make a lick of sense)

Yes, I do mean the physical moon we see in the real world. The Lunarian side of the moon is surrounded by some sort of barrier, which can only been seen through a reflection, as Maribel puts it.

Why doesn't it make sense for Suika to destroy the moon? It isn't like she cannot just dissipate the moon with her ability or something similar. In any case, here is a quote of what happened from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red:

Aya: On the ○○○th of ○○○, I became aware that the Moon had suddenly and silently exploded.
Although this was a major event, it occurred so late at night that most people never realized it happened.
The Moon quietly scattered out across the sky, and its countless glimmering fragments descended to the Earth.
Before long, the fragments thinned out like mist, and then gathered together again to reform the full moon....

[haoreos2]

Why is that the same? If you drop it off the cliff, there is no implication that you could do the action of breaking it.
Yes, I am referring to that quote, where Suika says: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.

Neither is there any indiciation Suika can actually destroy the moon, rather than its reflection, which is explicitly what she is doing.
Ragardless, I would argue that the fact that the vase breaks as a direct result of your actions qualifies as breaking it. It's no different from doing the same by swinging at it with a hammer.

Yes, I do mean the physical moon we see in the real world. The Lunarian side of the moon is surrounded by some sort of barrier, which can only been seen through a reflection, as Maribel puts it.

Why doesn't it make sense for Suika to destroy the moon? It isn't like she cannot just dissipate the moon with her ability or something similar. In any case, here is a quote of what happened from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red:

Aya: On the ○○○th of ○○○, I became aware that the Moon had suddenly and silently exploded.
Although this was a major event, it occurred so late at night that most people never realized it happened.
The Moon quietly scattered out across the sky, and its countless glimmering fragments descended to the Earth.
Before long, the fragments thinned out like mist, and then gathered together again to reform the full moon....

Assuming that the destruction of the world your pocket dimension resides on has no effect on said dimension:

• Nobody of note outside Gensokyo apparently noticed the display
• There were no noteworthy effects of the sudden absence of a celestial body with a significant gravitational pull on the earth, such as tidal activity
• There wasn't catastrophic fallout due to giant pieces of space debris impacting the earth
• There wasn't any problem with restoring the moon, despite a good portion of each fragment having burnt apart in entry
• The entire process was utterly silent, despite countless fragments explicitly impacting earth

...and so on, and so forth. Any arguments that I can think up off the top of my head to account for these require so many secondary powers on Suika's part and allowances in general that it would be simpler to claim she got reality drunk on booze. Especially since it was apparently an entierly spur of the moment thing.

[cuc]

I'm very certain Suika has also fractured the moon in her IAMP "Gensokyo" stage. Didn't someone said in the last IAMP stage something like "what's wrong with the moon?" That's also why the pre-battle music is named "Broken Moon" in the first place. Perhaps everyone is simply too drunk to notice the moon is broken for this incident to be written down in records.

Also, did you ever see the Hakurei Shrine underneath in that stage, and realize the IAMP final battle took place in the air?

[Starxsword]

Assuming that the destruction of the world your pocket dimension resides on has no effect on said dimension:
?Nobody of note outside Gensokyo apparently noticed the display
?There were no noteworthy effects of the sudden absence of a celestial body with a significant gravitational pull on the earth, such as tidal activity
?There wasn't catastrophic fallout due to giant pieces of space debris impacting the earth
?There wasn't any problem with restoring the moon, despite a good portion of each fragment having burnt apart in entry
?The entire process was utterly silent, despite countless fragments explicitly impacting earth

...and so on, and so forth. Any arguments that I can think up off the top of my head to account for these require so many secondary powers on Suika's part and allowances in general that it would be simpler to claim she got reality drunk on booze. Especially since it was apparently an entierly spur of the moment thing.

The logical explanations don't matter as much, because there is no point of view from the outside world. The observation was observed by Aya, not Suika, very late at night and it was for a short period.
Also, the moon exploded and many fragments fell into earth. This is the facts we know, according to Aya's observations.

I don't know what the gravitation effects this would have and this gets deeper into science, which may or may not work the same way. Such as how there is oxygen in space on their rocket when Remilia's group was travelling to the moon. Suika can most likely gather both mass and energy, so that is not too relevant whether it was burned up into energy or not. As long as conversion is not lost, which in theory, should not be lost.

I'm very certain Suika has also fractured the moon in her IAMP "Gensokyo" stage. Didn't someone said in the last IAMP stage something like "what's wrong with the moon?" That's also why the pre-battle music is named "Broken Moon" in the first place. Perhaps everyone is simply too drunk to notice the moon is broken for this incident to be written down in records.

That could be the stage when it happened, but that is kind of hard to say.
I believe Immaterial and Missing Power happened in the summer? This explosion is in the winter, February.

Also, did you ever see the Hakurei Shrine underneath in that stage, and realize the IAMP final battle took place in the air?

Is this where it happens? I never realized.

[cuc]

The BAiJR event of moon-shattering took place in early 2006, and inspired Remilia's second attempt at building a moon rocket. IAMP was in 2004. 2004 also happened to be one of Gensokyo's most turbulent years, with 3 large incidents in a row.

I think it's probable that the IAMP final battle is either some weird intermediate layer in the sky, or a special temporary space created by Suika, due to how strange the stage looks, and one character did say "where's this place", indicating it's not somewhere they are used to seeing. But we have no further evidence than that.

[Sungho]

In Yuyuko's dialog with Yukari and the name of the Final Stage, it could be inferred that Yukari shrunk Gensokyo's border to force Suika out.
Which raises more questions than it can answer.

[Delfigamer]

Suika was banned from the feast.

Year 2006, huh? Isn't Touhou supposed to take place in near future?

[haoreos2]

In Yuyuko's dialog with Yukari and the name of the Final Stage, it could be inferred that Yukari shrunk Gensokyo's border to force Suika out.
Which raises more questions than it can answer.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't she restricting the border encompassing Suika rather than the border of Gensokyo?
That is, Suika had spread herself out so thinly that she was effectively mist, and Yukari simply did the reverse to bring her back into her regular density.

The logical explanations don't matter as much, because there is no point of view from the outside world. The observation was observed by Aya, not Suika, very late at night and it was for a short period.
Also, the moon exploded and many fragments fell into earth. This is the facts we know, according to Aya's observations.

I don't know what the gravitation effects this would have and this gets deeper into science, which may or may not work the same way. Such as how there is oxygen in space on their rocket when Remilia's group was travelling to the moon. Suika can most likely gather both mass and energy, so that is not too relevant whether it was burned up into energy or not. As long as conversion is not lost, which in theory, should not be lost.

I'm operating under the assumption that the in-universe physical laws reflect reality until shown otherwise.
I'm also reasonably sure that things burning is a chemical reaction that can't be reversed simply through gathering or diffusing, so her ability wouldn't really help in that regard. Imagine trying to recreate a book that was burnt to ashes by gathering up the ashes; even if you could get every part to fit perfectly, which is already kinda far fetched, you wouldn't be able to just turn it back into paper.

(As an aside, the whole fragments falling to earth thing could conceivably be the visual result of shattering the heavens and thus disrupting the reflection, so that's not an absolute contradiction.)

[cuc]

Year 2006, huh? Isn't Touhou supposed to take place in near future?

Only the Sealing Club CD stories take place in near future. Most Touhou stories generally take place in approximately the time they come out, giving you a relatively real-time update of the state of Gensokyo. For games, this often means the same year; for other stories, the same season.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gensokyo_Timeline

[Starxsword]

@haoreos:
Let me clarify everything, starting from what Suika said.

You used the example of the vase, but that doesn't make sense in Suika's dialogue, let me use some examples:
If you drop the vase, it would be easier to break it.

I am saying this does not make any sense. If you drop the vase, it either breaks or not, it does not make it easier to break it. The breaking itself is the action, however, when you drop a vase, you either break it or not, it doesn't make it easier to break. Except in the case of the vase being hard, and when you drop it, you know that it will not break and thus it becomes easier to break as force has been applied to it.

Let's take another example:
This vase is made of steel. If I turn this vase into glass, it would be easier to break.

What I am trying to say is the action of breaking is never done on the vase, what you are looking for is the ease of that action. Like, if I find a hammer, it would be easier for me to break the vase. However, it does not make sense to say if I drop this vase, it becomes easier to break. At least logically speaking, I don't see how that makes sense.

(As an aside, the whole fragments falling to earth thing could conceivably be the visual result of shattering the heavens and thus disrupting the reflection, so that's not an absolute contradiction.)

When you refract the light of the atmosphere, it will not give you what Aya observes. You might see the moon look weird as if you are looking it in the water. But it will not shatter and disappear. You will also not see the moon explode and fragments falling to the earth.

I'm operating under the assumption that the in-universe physical laws reflect reality until shown otherwise.
I'm also reasonably sure that things burning is a chemical reaction that can't be reversed simply through gathering or diffusing, so her ability wouldn't really help in that regard. Imagine trying to recreate a book that was burnt to ashes by gathering up the ashes; even if you could get every part to fit perfectly, which is already kinda far fetched, you wouldn't be able to just turn it back into paper.

Laws reflecting reality in universe does not matter, because there is no observation made from the outside world. You don't know what effects Suika's stunt did to the outside world, because there is no perspective on that. The only perspective you see is from Aya's perspective and thus that is the only one you could use. Which is what Aya observed.
So, you could argue that yes, there is a tidle wave which happened shortly after Suika's stunt, or not, but that delves into science which I don't know what the consequences are having gravity suddenly shift like that and then shift back. But the point is, none of that matters, because these observations are not told to us. What could have happened, what did happened do not apply, because none of those events are observed. The only events that are observed are from Aya and from inside Gensokyo.

We also know what else is observed, the fragments falling from the sky to the earth and there was an explosion. Now, the explanation from Aya's observation is that Suika blew up the moon and then regathered it. How she did it, that is something else entirely. And my argument is why make things up, when the standard explanation works?

Now, onto the piece of paper example. If you could covert energy back into mass, which in theory is possible, Suika would be able to change the burnt book back to normal. Either that or Suika can simply gathered different materials together to recreate the moon.

I think it's probable that the IAMP final battle is either some weird intermediate layer in the sky, or a special temporary space created by Suika, due to how strange the stage looks, and one character did say "where's this place", indicating it's not somewhere they are used to seeing. But we have no further evidence than that.

I thought the fight took place in a separate dimension. But I don't think it takes place in the future though. If you use Suika, she seems to pull people to her and it seems like they are in a separate space and only some of them can head back. It seems like for others, Suika has to send them back.

Suika was banned from the feast.

Year 2006, huh? Isn't Touhou supposed to take place in near future?

What cuc said. Touhou lore takes place about the same time as when the games appear.

[haoreos2]

@haoreos:
Let me clarify everything, starting from what Suika said.
You used the example of the vase, but that doesn't make sense in Suika's dialogue, let me use some examples:
If you drop the vase, it would be easier to break it.
I am saying this does not make any sense. If you drop the vase, it either breaks or not, it does not make it easier to break it. The breaking itself is the action, however, when you drop a vase, you either break it or not, it doesn't make it easier to break. Except in the case of the vase being hard, and when you drop it, you know that it will not break and thus it becomes easier to break as force has been applied to it.
Let's take another example:
This vase is made of steel. If I turn this vase into glass, it would be easier to break.
What I am trying to say is the action of breaking is never done on the vase, what you are looking for is the ease of that action. Like, if I find a hammer, it would be easier for me to break the vase. However, it does not make sense to say if I drop this vase, it becomes easier to break. At least logically speaking, I don't see how that makes sense.

I'm not entirely sure why you're bringing up the ease of breaking it; are you talking about where she says this?

Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~

You can interpret this sentence in a few ways (the English translation, at least, no idea how unambiguous the original is);

• "If you first tear open the heavens, breaking the reflection of the moon becomes easy"
• "It is easy to tear open the heavens, thus breaking the reflection of the moon"

I'm personally going for the latter. If we do assume the former is the case, though, I'd have to argue against the part of the quote I bolded;
"breaking a vase via dropping it" is easier than "breaking a vase via punching it". Thus, "if I drop this vase, it becomes easier to break" is perfectly valid, because there is an implicit "than it would be to do so otherwise" at the end of the sentence.
Your example of the steel vase isn't quite what I'm talking about, since I'm saying the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break.

When you refract the light of the atmosphere, it will not give you what Aya observes. You might see the moon look weird as if you are looking it in the water. But it will not shatter and disappear. You will also not see the moon explode and fragments falling to the earth.

To be honest, I wouldn't think it would work like that. But eh, if you're taking Suika's abilities to the N'th degree, I figure "she can bend the light so blah" is as compelling a handwave as any, and certainly much more believable than somehow accounting for every problem associated with destroying the physical moon, simultaneously, on a whim.

Laws reflecting reality in universe does not matter, because there is no observation made from the outside world. You don't know what effects Suika's stunt did to the outside world, because there is no perspective on that. The only perspective you see is from Aya's perspective and thus that is the only one you could use. Which is what Aya observed.
So, you could argue that yes, there is a tidle wave which happened shortly after Suika's stunt, or not, but that delves into science which I don't know what the consequences are having gravity suddenly shift like that and then shift back. But the point is, none of that matters, because these observations are not told to us. What could have happened, what did happened do not apply, because none of those events are observed. The only events that are observed are from Aya and from inside Gensokyo.

We also know what else is observed, the fragments falling from the sky to the earth and there was an explosion. Now, the explanation from Aya's observation is that Suika blew up the moon and then regathered it. How she did it, that is something else entirely. And my argument is why make things up, when the standard explanation works?

For one thing, everything on earth not protected by some sort of magichax would be dead, by dint of millions of tons of space debris crashing into earth at a speed fast enough to cross the distance separating the moon and the surface of the earth within the time Aya was watching, kicking up enough dust to blot out the sun and freeze everything, even discounting the ridiculous energy release of the collisions. Since we have Maribel's arc taking place in the future, it's safe enough to say this is not the case.

My point is that the standard explanation doesn't work, because it makes no sense physically or conceptually, unless Suika's abilities work vastly differently to what is implied, or she has a multitude of unmentioned secondary capabilities, or some other such explanation, all of which are less likely than the other common explanation, that it was the reflection that was broken.

Now, onto the piece of paper example. If you could covert energy back into mass, which in theory is possible, Suika would be able to change the burnt book back to normal. Either that or Suika can simply gathered different materials together to recreate the moon.

Pretty sure you can't do that with burnt paper even if you could somehow grab and reposition all the energy, since it's transformed on a subatomic level.
You could arbitrarily decide Suika can individually reposition every particle back to where it was pre-burnage, I suppose, and then scale that explanation up to the moon, but that would force me to conclude that she'd be a bigger mary sue than the lunarians if they suddenly got four additional middle names each and turned out to be descended from the Dragon.
Also, the moon is, what, a quarter of the size of earth? She'd be restricted to grabbing stuff from space, which opens up a whole other can of worms.

[Starxsword]

To be honest, I wouldn't think it would work like that. But eh, if you're taking Suika's abilities to the N'th degree, I figure "she can bend the light so blah" is as compelling a handwave as any, and certainly much more believable than somehow accounting for every problem associated with destroying the physical moon, simultaneously, on a whim.

In the fighting games, she can create miniature black holes and whole holes. I am not taking Suika's abilities to the Nth degree, but I am just observing what has been mentioned as to what she could do.

For one thing, everything on earth not protected by some sort of magichax would be dead, by dint of millions of tons of space debris crashing into earth at a speed fast enough to cross the distance separating the moon and the surface of the earth within the time Aya was watching, kicking up enough dust to blot out the sun and freeze everything, even discounting the ridiculous energy release of the collisions.

Why would there be that much energy released? I assume this would be Suika's power of dispersion that she is doing to the moon. If you were to go into physics, then I guess every time Suika disperses or condenses, then extreme energy would be released, because of Fusion or Fission. However, we should assume that her power to disperse and gather does not cause such a backlash.
If the object is not all that big, it would not really be that much debris entering the atmosphere, as it will get burned up, but some will still enter. I assume it would look like a meteor shower of some sort.

My point is that the standard explanation doesn't work, because it makes no sense physically or conceptually, unless Suika's abilities work vastly differently to what is implied, or she has a multitude of unmentioned secondary capabilities, or some other such explanation, all of which are less likely than the other common explanation, that it was the reflection that was broken.

I guess we disagree here, because I find that the standard explanation does work. The alternate explanation is contradictory and does not make sense. It doesn't make sense from Aya's observations and it doesn't make sense from Suika's explanation.

The point I am trying to make is compare to Youmu stealing spring. That doesn't make sense either, but Youmu could do it, how does she do it? That's impossible to answer.

I suppose, and then scale that explanation up to the moon, but that would force me to conclude that she'd be a bigger mary sue than the lunarians if they suddenly got four additional middle names each and turned out to be descended from the Dragon.

She's pretty high up there. Her introduction pretty much puts her as such, being the leader of the onis and all that good stuff. In SWR, it has indications that the entire Tengu mountain cannot take on Suika.

Your example of the steel vase isn't quite what I'm talking about, since I'm saying the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break.

That doesn't make any sense. If the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break, then her statement is false.
Her statement is such: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.

If you drop a vase and it breaks. It doesn't any sense for it to be easy to break, because the action has been done and it is already broken.
This only works if the statement is a sarcastic statement meant to point out the obvious.

For something to be easy to break, you must first weaken it or have a tool to make it easy to break. The action of breaking the object itself does not make the object easy to break is what I am trying to say.

[haoreos2]

In the fighting games, she can create miniature black holes and whole holes. I am not taking Suika's abilities to the Nth degree, but I am just observing what has been mentioned as to what she could do.

It's a question of scale. Sure, she can create black holes that effect an area of a dozen metres, but that's no indication she can make one that could pull the earth out of orbit, for example. Furthermore, it's a question of scope, since she's working with a multitude of fragments each requiring several operations to counteract the problems involved simultaneously.

Why would there be that much energy released? I assume this would be Suika's power of dispersion that she is doing to the moon. If you were to go into physics, then I guess every time Suika disperses or condenses, then extreme energy would be released, because of Fusion or Fission. However, we should assume that her power to disperse and gather does not cause such a backlash.
If the object is not all that big, it would not really be that much debris entering the atmosphere, as it will get burned up, but some will still enter. I assume it would look like a meteor shower of some sort.

It's the energy released on impact. We're talking about millions of tons of debris moving at speeds hundreds of times faster than a space shuttle. This article can give you a reasonable idea of the forces involved, except that in our case everything from the mass to the velocity would be scaled up by orders of magnitude.

I guess we disagree here, because I find that the standard explanation does work. The alternate explanation is contradictory and does not make sense. It doesn't make sense from Aya's observations and it doesn't make sense from Suika's explanation.

The point I am trying to make is compare to Youmu stealing spring. That doesn't make sense either, but Youmu could do it, how does she do it? That's impossible to answer.

I see a difference between the two examples; stealing spring doesn't work for a debate, since as you said it doesn't make sense, as it's a concept. On the other hand, we can apply physics to the destruction of the moon, so that I think can be discussed reasonably.
But yeah, if I haven't swayed you regarding the explanations by now, I probably won't be able to anytime soon, so I'll bow out of this one.

She's pretty high up there. Her introduction pretty much puts her as such, being the leader of the onis and all that good stuff. In SWR, it has indications that the entire Tengu mountain cannot take on Suika.

She's the leader of the Oni? Always thought she was one of the big four, don't recall anything saying that.
In any case! I still think that "can take on every Tengu in Gensokyo" is still far, far less ridiculous than everything involved with shattering and restoring the moon, on the fly, alone, in a timespan of a few hours or somesuch.

That doesn't make any sense. If the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break, then her statement is false.
Her statement is such: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.

If you drop a vase and it breaks. It doesn't any sense for it to be easy to break, because the action has been done and it is already broken.
This only works if the statement is a sarcastic statement meant to point out the obvious.

For something to be easy to break, you must first weaken it or have a tool to make it easy to break. The action of breaking the object itself does not make the object easy to break is what I am trying to say.

Out of curiosity, is English your first language? Seems like the discrepancy here is in how you're reading the sentence rather than your reasoning.
The quoted sentence is equivalent to "Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, it is easy to break it by tearing open the heavens".
The way you're interpreting it, I'd think it would be more correct to write it as "Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it becomes easy to break".

Of course, the translation isn't infallible to begin with, so I'm not saying the latter interpretation is impossible, just that former is also valid.

[Tengukami]

Out of curiosity, is English your first language? Seems like the discrepancy here is in how you're reading the sentence rather than your reasoning.

I was just coming here to ask the same question. I think the back-and-forth over this particular phrase is based on a misunderstanding of what it means, which could easily elude a non-native English speaker. A similar misunderstanding arose over a statement regarding Reimu's ability to fly a few months back.

I can't speak to Suika's powerlevel (for obvious reasons, including powerlevel talk being Stricly Verboten 'round these here parts, so we should maybe watch out how we handle that particular topic), but "the leader of the oni" is not a title I ever heard associated with her.

Apart from that, this thread has been an interesting experiment thus far. We know that most of this stuff is explained with "lolmagic", but it is fun to try and push for as much plausibility as possible, to see how far the limits go.

[Drake]

Humans can only see the moon from its reflection. This includes what you see in the sky.
When you're looking at a mirror or a lake and seeing the reflection of the moon, breaking the mirror or surface of the lake causes the reflection to break.
So if you break "the thing that's in the sky that reflects the moon", what Suika calls the heavens, then the moon will seem as if it was broken.
Also, the fragments of the moon were never said to impact the earth.

I can see where the silly misinterpretation is coming from. Although I would say that most people would read the phrase as the above, and the translation is essentially accurate, I'll rewrite it in a different way.
「天を割れば幾らでも砕くことが出来るのよ」
"If you break the heavens, you can smash [the moon] as often as you want"

The 幾らでも is what's translated to "it's easy to" in the article and my "as many times as you like/as often as you want". You could also say "as much as you want", but you might read that and go back to "if you do X then you're then able to do Y afterwards", which is wrong. The meaning is that given you can tear the heavens, doing so also makes it seem as if you broke the moon, since all you really see is the reflection of the moon in the heavens.

[Imosa]

Sorry if this is pointless backtracking, I just don't want to leave it hanging.

I hope you're aware that this affirmation can only be applied to Touhou universe right? If that's the case, then yes, everything he says is true, because he is the one that's shaping the world of touhou. But the same can't apply to our real world's theories or myths. Because it was not Zun that shaped them. A negative Kelvin temperature is still hot, and it won't become cold just because Zun said so. If it's in Gensokyo, however, then it would be fair enough if we consider the place might use different physics than the one from our world. Otherwise, we'd still really have to blindly trust him even if he were to say that our Earth is flat, or if Jesus originally came from an east Asian religion...? Just because he is the "God of all creation" ...? That's not how stuff works. And no, a whole universe won't fall apart just because of one or two slips.

I see question marks but now questions so I'm thrown off a little. First of all, if ZUN says that a negative kelvin temperature is colder then a positive one, within the touhou-verse then it can be and it would be easier to uproot the laws of physics then think ZUN was wrong. However, both of those things are pretty hard and the path of least resistance is really just to call Cirno a baka and be done with it.

Well, if this can be applied to Suika's case, then why can't it be applied to what I said earlier ago as well...? Because Zun is such a Self-Righteous person that he can only "mess up" a single time in his life, and everything else he says whatsoever is automatically true, even outside Touhou's universe...? Please, redo your thoughts.

You took my words out of context. I gave an example of what we could say if we start assuming that ZUN makes mistakes in places that we find hard to understand.

[Starxsword]

@Suika being the leader of Oni:

Not directly stated anywhere, but highly implied, because of her character. The stage of her fight in Immaterial and Missing Power is Shutendouji Oni Hunting. Here is the reference: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Immaterial_and_Missing_Power/Story/Suika%27s_Scenario#Immaterial_and_Missing_Power

I see a difference between the two examples; stealing spring doesn't work for a debate, since as you said it doesn't make sense, as it's a concept. On the other hand, we can apply physics to the destruction of the moon, so that I think can be discussed reasonably.
But yeah, if I haven't swayed you regarding the explanations by now, I probably won't be able to anytime soon, so I'll bow out of this one.

What I am arguing here is we have an observation. We need to first and foremost have an explanation to coincide with the observation. The idea of refracting the heavens to make it look like the moon broke does not coincide with the observation made by one of the characters.
What we do know is that the moon exploding and many fragments fell to earth. That can't be observed if it was just refraction.

It is hard for me to explain what Suika can do without comparing it to other characters. The quickest comparison I can make is the bosses we meet on Touhou 6, 7, and 8. Their abilities include fate manipulation(Remilia), death manipulation(Yuyuko), and time manipulation(Kaguya) with the ability to manipulate parallel time lines. With the scope of these in mind, you can compare it to Suika, who is also a final boss.

[Drake]

Firstly, the observation can be inaccurate or exaggerated. For Aya, the latter is plausible.

Not that I need to claim she is exaggerating, though. You're reading into the description too much and are giving it your own interpretation. "Descended to the earth" does not mean they impacted in any way or did anything besides fall. She just saw the moon apparently burst into pieces and they fell. At some point they disintegrated and went back to reform the moon. 地上 even means "above the earth".