Gensokyo Physics: Youkai of Systems goes insane.

[Delfigamer]

Where we stopped? Ah, yeah.
- Glow seen from knives that are inside the area of accelerated time is the thermal infra-red waves with frequency boosted enough to turn them into visible light.
- Rumiya represent the fear of darkness, not the darkness itself, so she cannot affect light or darkness, only human's perceiving is under her comparatively weak control (fear's eyes are big).

Share your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen.

[KFCbbQ]

Rumia's ability is said to be the "manipulation of darkness", except this is conceptually wrong and it is more correct to classify her ability as "the manipulation of light". In physics, colour is perceived by the spectrum of wavelengths that a surface reflects. A surface that reflects all light of the visible spectrum appears white, a surface that absorbs all light of the spectrum appears black. Darkness is defined as the absence of light. However, if there's no light to begin with, what's there to manipulate?

In practice, Rumia's power possibly behaves like a black-body, which absorbs incoming light and emits thermal radiation. Another explanation is through fluorescence where visible light is converted to a frequency outside the visible spectrum such as infrared or UV light.

[Tiamat]

Be aware that Symposium of Post Mysticism (Futo's section) confirms that at least some of those abilities are self-proclaimed.  If Rumia's was, it is likely that she wouldn't be smart enough to realize that her ability conceptually makes no sense.

[Sagus]

Or perhaps "darkness" in this case is an actual pitch black substance that Rumia can produce in order to envelope herself and a fraction of her surronding area, so as to protect herself from the sun (necessary since she states that it makes it hard for her to think and also makes her skin and hair go bad) and confuse prey and predators alike.

not entirely unlike an octopus' ink blasts

we should totally also have a youkai biology thread

[Tengukami]

- Glow seen from knives that are inside the area of accelerated time is the thermal infra-red waves with frequency boosted enough to turn them into visible light.

I think light seen coming from the knives that are accelerating is proportionally increased in wavelength, or shifted to the red end of the spectrum.

[haoreos2]

Rumia's ability is said to be the "manipulation of darkness", except this is conceptually wrong and it is more correct to classify her ability as "the manipulation of light".

Saying her power is manipulation of light is pretty much the same as saying Cirno's power is manipulation of heat. In order to not completely mislead everyone, you'd need to clarify their powers are limited to the reduction or removal of heat/light.
And sure, it might be more accurate to say their powers are "the ability to remove/reduce light/heat within an area", but the result is darkness and cold. We have a concept of dark and cold, so we should use that instead of using a more general concept and then appending clarifications to it. Otherwise, why bother having words for it in the first place?
As an example, saying "Satori can read minds" is a tad quicker and more intuitive than "Satori's ability is being able to detect and interpret neuroelectrical pulses within another being's brain", or something.


'Sides, that's also assuming their powers work on a physical level rather than the much more fun idea that they're conceptual in nature to begin with.


Not sure why, but I do rather like the idea that she just shifts light into nonvisible frequencies rather than just pushing it away or removing it though.

[cuc]

>Youkai biology.

That's relatively simple. The essence of a youkai is its mind, not its body. A youkai's psychology determines its physiology, not the other way around.

>Redshift

During the Kaguya boss fight, the moonlight graphical effect behind her changes in the following way:

-At the beginning, it's blue;
-After her first SC, Kaguya plays a "gathering power" animation, and the moonlight turns red;
-After the second SC, the graphical effect reverses;
-After the third SC, the reversed moonlight turns purple, and stayed that way to the very end.

Now, this is obviously referencing redshift and blueshift. And because the change only takes place after Kaguya's special "gathering power" animation, it's intended to be highly visible and meaningful. So what does it means?

My interpretation:

Kaguya had discovered the endless night magic (but only realized it’s casted by the opponents before her eyes at the end), and was using her power to neutralize its effect throughout the fight.

The endless night might have worked by rewinding time. Thus:
-"normal" blue light = normal speed time rewinding;
-"normal" red light = slowed time rewinding;
-"reverse" red light = slowed time;
-"reverse" purple light = time fast forwarding.

In other words, Kaguya reversed the direction of time again so it flowed in the right direction, and then accelerated it to catch up with the correct hour of the day.

Also consider that the moon is moving from left to right when you first reach the end of Stage 6B (it then stays in the center of the screen). If the left is the West, then the moon is indeed moving in reverse. That's hard to tell, though.

[Helepolis]

Not sure about the reversal of time, afaik Kaguya accelerates time or controls time flow? (I am quite confused) Afaik, the night was frozen or moved extremely slow (game wise). Kaguya indeed discovers at the end of the fight that the heroines are the cause of the "frozen/everlasting night".

Kaguya:

What is this! I see, the ones who have stopped the night.. That was you two, wasn't it.
Kaguya Houraisan REVIVES
The half-done everlasting night that you have made... With my art for manipulating the eternal, I'll tear it all away. The dawn shall come immediately. How's that? With this, Imperishable Night will be broken!

Your description of the colours and moon position sparked my curiosity, need to check that out tonight.

[cuc]

There is some space here allowing for further weirdness, as the moon in Stage 6B is supposed to be the True Moon, the source of magic and insanity, rather than the mundane moon we see every day. So, we have to wonder what those light effects are supposed to represent: Jacob's ladder, lunar halo, or something much more extraordinary and deeply magical?

[AJS]

Or perhaps "darkness" in this case is an actual pitch black substance that Rumia can produce in order to envelope herself and a fraction of her surrounding area

I don't think this is out of the question...  If gameplay mechanics are to be taken at face value, this is the way it appears in Shoot the Bullet, when Rumia seems to be emitting "clouds" of darkness.

[Tengukami]

It could also be a tiny cloud of dark matter.

Another thing that's bugged me - Suika. Her power is manipulation of density and sparseness. Notice this is not manipulation of mass. So with that in mind, when she takes on her giganto form, are we to take this to mean she has lessened her density to be able to have the same mass at this size? Are her tiny-little-Suikas actually super-solid?

[Starxsword]

Well, she has the ability to manipulate density, but may that is just something else that she could do. For example, how was she able to shatter the heavens?

Like Youmu's ability is swordsmanship, but she was able to gather spring, which is something normal people can't do. That would just be something else Youmu can do in addition to her ability of swordsmanship.

[Delfigamer]

Well, she has the ability to manipulate density, but may that is just something else that she could do. For example, how was she able to shatter the heavens?

Like Youmu's ability is swordsmanship, but she was able to gather spring, which is something normal people can't do. That would just be something else Youmu can do in addition to her ability of swordsmanship.

Well, Suika is oni. Oni normally have the colossal strength.

Another thing that's bugged me - Suika. Her power is manipulation of density and sparseness. Notice this is not manipulation of mass. So with that in mind, when she takes on her giganto form, are we to take this to mean she has lessened her density to be able to have the same mass at this size? Are her tiny-little-Suikas actually super-solid?

Isn't density a value measured by kg/m³? :3
However, each kg of matter costs 9*10¹⁶ J of energy. So, Suika is far more energetic than Marisa and Satorin combined. :3
She also can move all her mass to feet. It is actually useful, with her superstrong legs.
________

It could also be a tiny cloud of dark matter.

As what I know, dark matter is just galaxy's parts that don't emit light, such as blach holes, cold nebulas, died stars and similar. It doesn't have any special properties useful to a darkness youkai.

Guys you didn't convince me. Manipulating illusions caused by fear is much simpler and more fitting to a youkai.

Cirno and Sunny aren't just youkai, they are fairies which represent certain parts of the nature. They don't need to control cold/light. They are them, in some sense.

[Limian]

Another thing that's bugged me - Suika. Her power is manipulation of density and sparseness. Notice this is not manipulation of mass. So with that in mind, when she takes on her giganto form, are we to take this to mean she has lessened her density to be able to have the same mass at this size? Are her tiny-little-Suikas actually super-solid?

I don't see any reason why not.

However, each kg of matter costs 9*10¹⁶ J of energy. So, Suika is far more energetic than Marisa and Satorin combined. :3

That's not quite correct. Suika keeps the same mass at all times. When she grows super-large, she "scatters" her mass across a larger volume, and conversely, when she shrinks, she compresses it into a smaller space.

[Sungho]

It could also be a tiny cloud of dark matter.

As what I know, dark matter is just galaxy's parts that don't emit light, such as blach holes, cold nebulas, died stars and similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
If you're referring to the cosmological meaning of 'Dark Matter', wikipedia says that its absorption of light is quite unsignificant.

Is it possible to explain how manipulation of time can get a larger interior?

[Tengukami]

Isn't density a value measured by kg/m³?

Yes? And that being the case, if Suika grows large but has manipulated her density to attain this size, her mass has probably decreased.

As what I know, dark matter is just galaxy's parts that don't emit light, such as blach holes, cold nebulas, died stars and similar. It doesn't have any special properties useful to a darkness youkai.

No, this isn't right. We don't really know what dark matter is. What we do know, though, is it has the same properties as "visible" matter, and that it comprises most of the universe.

[Imosa]

From what I understand, we don't know what Dark Matter is but we know it exists because galaxies behave as if they have more mass that we can not see; however, it could be any mater that we can not seem to detect. Since we detect mater by measuring the effect is has on light, it would stand to reason that dark mater does not interact with light. Explanations for dark mater range from the mundane such as a lot of brown dwarfs (very small dim stars) to the bizarre such as non-baryonic mater (mater that is incapable of interacting with light).

[Delfigamer]

No, this isn't right. We don't really know what dark matter is. What we do know, though, is it has the same properties as "visible" matter, and that it comprises most of the universe.

All matter that doesn't shine is named "dark" for obvious reasons.
Only source of light - not visible one, but all EM-waves human is able to register - is star. Others are either dim or little-studied (if not theoretical).
Stars make about a fifth of galaxy's mass. Other belongs to dark matter.
I've stated only examples of this matter.

dark mater does not interact with light

Wut?

Anyway, why in the universe a weak Gensokyo's youkai would use a galaxy's ballast matter?
________

Is it possible to explain how manipulation of time can get a larger interior?

It is wrong to say that in the general relativity time axis is the same as space ones, since it behaves in another way, e.g. in vector's square's formula square of "time projection" has sign different to squares of "space projections" (like V² = - t² + x² + y² + z²).
So, first explanation coming to mind - Sakuya's powers aren't bounded by just time. We can also remember that her time distortions are perfectly located in space.

[Imosa]

Wut?

It's in the first sentence of the wikipedia page. It even has it's own peer reviewed reference.

evidently it neither emits nor absorbs light or other electromagnetic radiation at any significant level.

Anyway, why in the universe a weak Gensokyo's youkai would use a galaxy's ballast matter?

There's really nothing wrong with using dark mater. We already know that's it's a thing, the problem is that we can't go and get a sample. In nay case the fact that dark mater is dark because it is hard to see, not because it creates darkness, makes it the exact opposite of what Rumia would need.
So the thing with Suika is that it's easy to imagine either or mass or volume keeping constant; however, there is nothing saying that she can't manipulate the two freely. For example if she doubles her density she could be halving her volume and keeping her mass constant; however she could also be quartering her volume and halving her mass.
Something else that's worth thinking about is that she has a gourd filled with a creature that can turn water into sake, at a rediculous ratio. This means that she has a huge amount of mass which she can use to balance out her volume in any bodily conversion.

[KFCbbQ]

blah
'Sides, that's also assuming their powers work on a physical level rather than the much more fun idea that they're conceptual in nature to begin with.

But the whole idea of this thread is to explain how their abilities work from a scientific point of view, so explicit definitions of their properties are kinda needed... :derp:

Rumia has the power to remove light, but bear in mind that it's impossible to cause light to just "disappear" into thin air. To do that you must transform it into other forms of energy that's not luminous (eg. kinetic energy) or convert it into mass (the famous e=mc^2 relationship). The former kind of transformation is actually practical, try picturing a solar panel or a plant going through photosynthesis. Otherwise, a black-hole is something that converts energy into mass.

[Kaze_Senshi]

How can you explain Seiga's power to go through the things?
How about the power of Yoshika to eat anything? A dark hole in her stomach?

Don't try to find logic in magic  :V

[Sagus]

How can you explain Seiga's power to go through the things?

Her hairpin creates a physical hole in walls for her to pass through. She doesn't actually become intangible.

How about the power of Yoshika to eat anything? A dark hole in her stomach?

Teeth made of incredibly strong material (to be able to chew anything), inability to feel pain, very quick regeneration (to allow her to eat sharp or poisonous things without dying... again), and the most efficient digestive tract ever (to completely breakdown everything she ingests and absorb it fully).

Don't try to find logic in magic  :V

"Logic" does not mean "scientific explanation". For instance, youkai are a manifestation of humanity's fear, so it's logical for them to grow stronger the more they are feared. Something is only "illogical" if it's entirely arbitrary.

[Tengukami]

So the thing with Suika is that it's easy to imagine either or mass or volume keeping constant; however, there is nothing saying that she can't manipulate the two freely. For example if she doubles her density she could be halving her volume and keeping her mass constant; however she could also be quartering her volume and halving her mass.

Ah, thank you. That was the explanation I was looking for.

[haoreos2]

But the whole idea of this thread is to explain how their abilities work from a scientific point of view, so explicit definitions of their properties are kinda needed... :derp:

I'm just saying that "manipulation of darkness" is not conceptually wrong (in fact, "conceptually" is pretty much the only modifier that makes it undeniably valid, other than "thematically" or something similar), and that "manipulation of light" is completely misleading, unless you append clarifications that make it equivalent to darkness anyway. It's like if you ask someone what they had for dinner, and they answered "food"; it's technically valid, and the given set includes the desired answer, but it also includes a lot of data that would actually be an incorrect answer which obfuscates it more than a more specific answer would (nested analogy: like answering a game of "guess the number" with "it's contained somewhere in Pi"). I simply find it hard to reconcile the idea of "correct" correllating to a less informative, more general super concept.
Your actual explanation I'm fine with, and TBH seems more interesting than a general black field of blackness.

Rumia has the power to remove light, but bear in mind that it's impossible to cause light to just "disappear" into thin air. To do that you must transform it into other forms of energy that's not luminous (eg. kinetic energy)

She turns light into sound energy in the form of her theme music. Also, she follows the player characters throughout the rest of the entire series, just offscreen, playing theme music for stages and fights and whatnot.

[KFCbbQ]

Yeah I get what you mean. Like "sunrise" is much more convenient word to use than the phrase "the Earth spinning", since it gives you a better idea of what's happening, although techincally the sun doesn't rise. Anyway I wouldn't stress too much on the wording, let it be light, darkness or whatever suits you. The theory behind is what I am really interested in.

[Starxsword]

Well, Suika is oni. Oni normally have the colossal strength.

Shattering the heavens is a bit different from having colossal strength. I don't think strength alone can allow you to shatter the heavens.

[Zork787]

how was she able to shatter the heavens?

This was actually answered in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red on the page about Suika

"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Suika

[haoreos2]

...Doesn't that explain how she broke the moon, rather than how she broke the heavens?
In fact, the next line is "I understood how she'd broken the Moon, but it was unclear how she'd managed to shatter the heavens."

Maybe she just dispersed the heavens rather than applying ridiculous amounts of force, which had the same result since the scattered remnants couldn't reflect the moon as a whole, and then gathered it back up afterwards. It would fit the description in that passage, and she did imply it was done through some usage of her gathering-diffusing shtick.

[Delfigamer]

Shattering the heavens is a bit different from having colossal strength. I don't think strength alone can allow you to shatter the heavens.

Oh.
Seems you don't know Ilya Muromets good.
His strength was given by volhves. In that episode, Ilya was forced to drink water enchanted by them. After second ladle, he feeled the strength compared to oni's: "I feel like I can turn the Earth upside-down." Then volhves gave him third ladle, and his strength was reduced to just great.

How can you explain Seiga's power to go through the things?

Her hairpin can do spacewarp holes through solid masses.

How about the power of Yoshika to eat anything? A dark hole in her stomach?

Anti-matter! :V

Don't try to find logic in magic  :V

Cool magic always has a strong system comparable with physics.
That's the difference between a fairy tale magic and a proper one. Latter has determined laws which cannot be broken in bounds of that magic.

[cuc]

Seems you don't know Ilya Muromets good.
His strength was given by volhves. In that episode, Ilya was forced to drink water enchanted by them. After second ladle, he feeled the strength compared to oni's: "I feel like I can turn the Earth upside-down." Then volhves gave him third ladle, and his strength was reduced to just great.
...
Cool magic always has a strong system comparable with physics.
That's the difference between a fairy tale magic and a proper one. Latter has determined laws which cannot be broken in bounds of that magic.

First you proudly referenced an example of pre-modern magic, and then immediately said they are not as cool as modern fantasy fiction magic, because they don't have strong systems. That's a bit inconsistent  .

Touhou has always been making use of both pre-modern magic and fantasy fiction magic, sometimes even playing with the distinction between them. Much of what happens in Touhou can be understood as "fairy tale magic" that doesn't need any explanation, yet from time to time we do get absurdly detailed explanations of how things work.