Kisume Quest VII - A Z-Machine Adventure

[Hello Purvis]

> "She said she's been here since before the Empire. From what I can tell, Yumemi made that Okazaki Drive thing before the rise of the Empire, too. Sariel would know all about Gensokyo, being from there, which means Yumemi gave her a revenge opportunity. She's told the Emperor that Higan is its capital, that Gensokyo's citizens work toward it, revere it, keep it in mind at all times."
> Tilt our head back toward wherever we think Kasen is.
> "I think you've heard at least one person claim otherwise."

>"That may be so, but it is hardly years worth of misleading," says the agent. "We've only begun to devote any real resources toward investigating it recently."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "On the surface, perhaps. But Sariel has a checkered Gensokyo history. She is actually a former Higan employee, one who was...reassigned, shall we say, amidst a major scandal. Scandals do not happen in Higan, you see. Hers is the only one I've ever heard of, and I lived there for quite a while. I don't know the details of what she did, but I can guarantee that it was something really unpleasant if she got punished that way. Knowing she's been here since before the rise of the Empire, and hearing what the Emperor thought he knew about Higan based on her information, I'd bet my bucket she's been plotting revenge since the instant she learned about the Okazaki Drive, and that everything she's advised the Emperor on was probably designed to bring Kosa a little bit closer to enacting revenge on Gensokyo for her."

[Hello Purvis]

> "On the surface, perhaps. But Sariel has a checkered Gensokyo history. She is actually a former Higan employee, one who was...reassigned, shall we say, amidst a major scandal. Scandals do not happen in Higan, you see. Hers is the only one I've ever heard of, and I lived there for quite a while. I don't know the details of what she did, but I can guarantee that it was something really unpleasant if she got punished that way. Knowing she's been here since before the rise of the Empire, and hearing what the Emperor thought he knew about Higan based on her information, I'd bet my bucket she's been plotting revenge since the instant she learned about the Okazaki Drive, and that everything she's advised the Emperor on was probably designed to bring Kosa a little bit closer to enacting revenge on Gensokyo for her."

>"Even with such intentions," says Sombraluz, "What can she do? What position and influence she has is at the Emperor's pleasure, and he doesn't listen to her alone."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "What else does she need to do? Kosa wrecks Gensokyo and her revenge is complete."

[Hello Purvis]

> "What else does she need to do? Kosa wrecks Gensokyo and her revenge is complete."

"Yes, but you say years of manipulation, and the only thing you have to show for it is recent movements,"' says the Agent. "That is not the same thing, and the difference is very important."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> Frown.
> "I understand that they're mechanically different, but you're going to have to explain to me how they're philosophically different."

[Hello Purvis]

> Frown.
> "I understand that they're mechanically different, but you're going to have to explain to me how they're philosophically different."

>"Severity," says the agent. "There is a difference between having an effect for a short time and for a long time."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> "Then I gotta ask which of the two possible scenarios is more likely, given how long she has known of the Okazaki Drive and what it could do; building up a reputation as a valued advisor on honest work and then flipping a switch one day and risking everything she had worked for on this, or plotting potential revenge from the beginning."

[Hello Purvis]

> "Then I gotta ask which of the two possible scenarios is more likely, given how long she has known of the Okazaki Drive and what it could do; building up a reputation as a valued advisor on honest work and then flipping a switch one day and risking everything she had worked for on this, or plotting potential revenge from the beginning."

>"She can plot whatever she likes," says Sombraluz, "The question is, what did she actually do? Despite what your rebel friends might have told you, we do not prosecute people for thinking things, we prosecute them for doing things."

>_

[O4rfish]

You guys are jerks. I'm out.

[Kilgamayan]

I'm pretty sure the most recent line in our conversation belongs to me. You're been welcome to respond to it since I said it.

> "Then perhaps a further investigation should be led into the formerly trustworthy advisor for doing things that are not in the best interests of the Empire."

[O4rfish]

I said you were jerks because both of you were posting in the thread WHILE I was chatting with you.
My issue here is of gameplay style. As I see it, Kilgamayan you are approaching each encounter with the mindset that it can and must be won, and by using diplomancy; preparation is secondary to performance within the encounter; and goals may shift with each parser entry. I do not see that as being a valid approach at all.
My style would be to focus on a single goal, or prioritized list of goals, and use varied means to achieve them, including in this case escaping, recruiting, and ending conversations without exploring the whole dialogue tree. I have tried to do this, but keep getting cut off.
One other issue I see is when one player and the parser post several commands and responses before any other players have had time to see that new posts have been added.
Ideally, what I would like is for players, especially Kilgamayan, to give commands accompanied by unparsed text when the broader intent of the commands is not immediately evident to other players, and for the parser to allow more than one player to post before responding.
I don't expect this post to be executed, but I do ask all players to read it and respond.

Actually, I think this post might even deserve a new thread on an appropriate board, but I was asked to post it here first.

[Kilgamayan]

Being half-asleep and heading to bed, the best response I can give to this for the time being is that parts of your proposal sound like a logistical nightmare and would tremendously bog the speed of the game down, and are also things that haven't been really utilized or necessary since tenser parts of Utsuho Quest and one particular instance in Maribel Quest (which was largely my fault and happened less for me being unclear and more for me being a whiny brat). The present style has worked for literally years; I will be honest and say that I am hesitant to enact such changes, not because I am not interested in other ideas (though I will also admit sudden leeriness after no less than three people stated they thought charging at a man with a gun was a good idea) but because I thoroughly enjoy the pace of this game and seeing it slow down would kill a lot of my enjoyment. Even update rates like those of Nazrin Quest (ignoring long absences) routinely drove me mad while I was playing.

And yes, I do approach every situation as something to be won, because I believe that a parser turning control over to players carries the unspoken meaning of "there is at least one action you can take at present that will improve your position." This is a fundamental truth for me as a player and strongly affects how I behave in and out of threads. (You can ask other parsers/players about some of the IRC bitchfits I've thrown.)

[O4rfish]

I would like Kisume to take advantage of the tactical situation, and retreat. Whatever conversation we want to have with Sombraluz will be just as valid later, when we have allies and resources, and when Canus has had time to virusscan his knowledge base.
>"I really want you to understand my point of view. I don't have the time or the words to persuade you right now, so I'll just promise you: we'll talk about this later. Kasen, we're leaving."
>Exit the way that is toward Yumemi.
In terms of "there is at least one action you can take that will improve your position" I cannot agree. I have played in many games in which a certain situation had multiple outcomes, all of which degraded the player's position (or what they thought their position was). It seems that a world in which that was true would never spawn the phrase "cut your losses".

[Kilgamayan]

And how many of those games were run here by respectable parsers?

Regardless, I must ask how you propose getting back to the Emperor and convincing him we are worth listening to if we are going to leave Sombraluz with the notion that we are not trustworthy. Why should the Emperor give a terrorist the time of day?

[O4rfish]

Is there a metagame in Rumia's (but only among "respectable" parsers) that discourages preparation, escaping, recruiting, in fact any actions beyond rushing in and talking to victory, resorting to combat only when that doesn't work?
Speaking of "improving our position" shouldn't we do that BEFORE the encounter?
I imagine there is more that one way to win this quest. and I would like to use the way that seems more likely to succeed. If we get captured, we will have to talk our way out of an extremely deep hole.

I feel like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I5udb-BDAQ

[Kilgamayan]

I see a lot of passive-aggressive mudslinging and no actual answer to the question of why the Emperor should care about a terrorist.

[O4rfish]

He should not, which is why I am trying to have the "terrorist" escape getting captured.

[O4rfish]

Kisume is just one person. While Canus and Sombraluz are dealing with Sariel, we can be locked in a basement, or we can be trying to convince the rebels to work with Canus instead of deposing him. Or, we can be mobilizing a Gensokyo Defense Force. Or, perhaps we can stand in this hallway arguing with Sombraluz until we convince him that we simply want to get the rebels and the emperor to work together and that we have a good reason for the empire to not invade Gensokyo, and that our past actions bear this out. I think the last one is the least achievable.

[Kilgamayan]

How do you propose convincing Yumemi that she should work with the Empire? How do you propose convincing the Empire to work with Yumemi? How do you propose organizing a "Gensokyo Defense Force" that will actually stand a chance against the Kosan army?

[O4rfish]

1 For Yumemi, arguments can include how the empire is also the current government which shouldn't be radically demolished; the citizens would (arguably) be more receptive to concilitory propaganda than to terrorism or a coup; also see below.
2 The empire does not take Yumemi seriously because they see her as one woman who is a terrorist. If they believed she led a broad coalition of citizens from several arenas, they would be more inclined to give her an audience.
3 Hax hag combos. If needed, we can steer Kisume towards high-power residents. I imagine, for instance, Yukari and Yuyuko and Sakuya working together, with the proper timing, could be much more effective than each of them separately.

[Kilgamayan]

For #1 I didn't even get that far in trying to convince her the Empire isn't the big bad wolf and she accused me of betraying her. This isn't speculation, it's a Thing That Happened™. She's set in her ways and won't be swayed by anything that doesn't involve the Empire making the first step toward reconciliation.

#3 is out because it's out of character. Kisume doesn't know any of those names or what they're capable of.

[O4rfish]

1 (re Yumemi) You have a good point. If we agree that Yumemi does not lead a broad coalition, that she is determined that Canus must leave power for her to join in any Kosan solution, and that the empire views her as a terrorist AND she is agreeable to actual terrorism ... then terrorism is a distasteful option that may somehow prevent the invasion. At any rate, assuming we cannot calm her down enough to have a discussion with her about attending any kind of negotiation (which is not something I had previously assumed but will go along with), we would be in a worse position to utilize her for anything if we were captured.

2 (re Canus) I do not believe we will be able to convince either Sombraluz or Canus to take any sort of concilitory action first. Sombraluz has stated that we would be treated as a hostile prisoner. As a prisoner, we would have very few cards to play. I would not be surprised to see some kind of timeskip message. ("It's ten days later. Sombraluz and four guards open your cell, and explain that you are to be repatriated to Higan as part of a treaty agreement between Higan and New Kosa.")

3 (re Gensokyo) Kisume has already gone on a "Tour de Gensokyo" when the stakes were much lower and the only objective was finding out about that mysterious agent. We know that Gensokyo has powerful residents; those residents could be multiplicatively more effective working together than working separately; they could be much more effective with foreknowledge of an invasion and time to plan; and I would assume that Kisume would be able to reason this much.

4 (re Kisume's goals as I see them) Her primary goal is to prevent the invasion of Gensokyo. Secondary goals are: to return to Gensokyo, preferably alive; to improve the situation in Kosa the way she would want it improved if she were living there. All other goals I view as tertiary, and I do not believe we may learn any information from anyone that would change or override these goals. This said, I have been viewing as foolish the actions you (Kilga) have been taking, which I interpreted as entering into conversations hoping to learn goal-influencing information, which would preclude pathing the encounters to best support Kisume's goals during the most critical phases.

5 (might as well keep numbering these) For Kisume's primary goal, Yumemi has no interest in this, beyond a minor irritation at losing a research location. Canus has no interest in this, as our threats didn't work, and his ethics and morals are no hindrance either. Sombraluz has no interest in this. We haven't sought out any Kosan NPCs who would support her primary goal. The best leverage we would be able to use has already been used. If we are going to persuade NPCs to help us achieve our primary goal (aside from getting Yumemi to destroy the ship and all potential replicas), I would prefer NPCs who also want to achieve it.

6 On running away while we look like a terrorist vs getting captured and talking our way out of looking like a terrorist: I just don't see the second option as being feasible, or the first option as being quite so permanent.

Heh, had to add some white space between these paragraphs.

[Kilgamayan]

2 (re Canus) I do not believe we will be able to convince either Sombraluz or Canus to take any sort of concilitory action first.

Why not? Sombraluz said we would be treated as a hostile prisoner when he thought he was in control of the situation, but that's changed drastically.

I would not be surprised to see some kind of timeskip message. ("It's ten days later. Sombraluz and four guards open your cell, and explain that you are to be repatriated to Higan as part of a treaty agreement between Higan and New Kosa.")

I can promise you that Purvis Does Not Do This. The largest time skips we get are when we're sleeping. I would actually suggest going back and reading through all the games in this timeline (I can't find Barren Path anymore ;_;) that led up to this one, because I suspect your past experience with text adventures are substantially different from how Purvis runs things and it may lead to mistaken assumptions about core mechanics. (Or you could just ask him how he generally prefers to run things.)

Relating to the subject of game and parser meta, I can practically guarantee you that this game was meant to be solved as we are, with only Kasen and rebels in tow. This isn't at all difficult for the parser to enforce, either; Yumemi can (and, storywise, should) just refuse to send us back to Gensokyo until the Kosan problem is solved, as she has no guarantee we won't simply run off from her once we get back.

3 (re Gensokyo) Kisume has already gone on a "Tour de Gensokyo" when the stakes were much lower and the only objective was finding out about that mysterious agent. We know that Gensokyo has powerful residents; those residents could be multiplicatively more effective working together than working separately; they could be much more effective with foreknowledge of an invasion and time to plan; and I would assume that Kisume would be able to reason this much.

This would also require convincing basically all of them that we're believable in the first place, and that the very high risk of death is worth taking. This Gensokyo is not one giant happy family; different houses have different agendas and may or may not participate even if they believe us. I would put money down on this Eientei not caring, for example.

4 (re Kisume's goals as I see them) Her primary goal is to prevent the invasion of Gensokyo. Secondary goals are: to return to Gensokyo, preferably alive; to improve the situation in Kosa the way she would want it improved if she were living there. All other goals I view as tertiary, and I do not believe we may learn any information from anyone that would change or override these goals. This said, I have been viewing as foolish the actions you (Kilga) have been taking, which I interpreted as entering into conversations hoping to learn goal-influencing information, which would preclude pathing the encounters to best support Kisume's goals during the most critical phases.

I can list my goals, if that would help.

- Stop the invasion, duh
- Restore Kosa to democracy. Yumemi sprung us from prison and has done a bunch of shit for us since, we owe this to her. She is also our ticket back to Gensokyo and requires this goal to be met, so it should be done regardless for the sake of satisfying her.
- Bring Sariel to justice. I suppose ultimately it doesn't really matter what happens to her, so this has the lowest priority.
- Minimize loss of life, including Empire forces (this includes the Emperor). Not only should this be simple common sense, but death is very heavily frowned upon in this series. We have had at least two immediate opportunities to kill in previous games, and in both cases there would have been severe, world-dynamic-altering negative consequences (as I found out in postgame by asking). Murder is out of the question unless absolutely necessary and I'm extremely far from convinced that we've hit that point.

[Yaersulf]

> "Then perhaps a further investigation should be led into the formerly trustworthy advisor for doing things that are not in the best interests of the Empire."

>Glance around for the gun, and if we see it: start moving subtly in its direction. Talking as we do this.

[Hello Purvis]

> "Then perhaps a further investigation should be led into the formerly trustworthy advisor for doing things that are not in the best interests of the Empire."

>"I can assure you this will be done,"

>Glance around for the gun, and if we see it: start moving subtly in its direction. Talking as we do this.

>You glance around, and don't see it immediately. It's not on the floor, at least...

>_

[Kilgamayan]

Actually, I think I can satisfy both sides here. I have one last short sequence of dialogue, and then I'd be perfectly fine with leaving.

> "...Perhaps sooner rather than later?"

[Hello Purvis]

> "...Perhaps sooner rather than later?"

>"Today," he says.

>_

[Kilgamayan]

> Sigh.
> "Let me ask you a personal question, then. Let's say you lot find Sariel guilty of being the big fat liar she is and you do whatever you're gonna do with her. Do you personally think Gensokyo is then any less of a trophy just waiting for the Kosa Empire to collect it?"

[O4rfish]

Actually, if we cannot recruit Kosan NPCs that haven't been introduced yet, and we cannot go back to Gensokyo, and we cannot convince Yumemi to do anything concilitory before the empire does, the only reason we have for leaving would be to destroy the ship. We should stay, and keep working on the empire side of things for a solution that meets more than one of our goals.
I think it wouldn't hurt to tell Sombraluz our goals, and how the suicide was less of a bluff than he might think.