Author Topic: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more  (Read 174267 times)

OkashiiKisei

  • Still working on the Grimoire
  • It's all about devotion
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #510 on: October 06, 2012, 11:05:23 AM »
I really like the "youkai are not like humans" thing, but I don't particularly like your specific examples. In a sense, they're too human? "Coming to terms with you urges" or "suppressing your instincts" or "gaining wisdom with age" all imply that they're basically human but with different needs or desires. Youkai aren't just people who like the taste of human flesh. Nor are they just people who look down on humans as food. Even the eldritch abomination thing kind of ignores what a youkai is supposed to be.

I mention those human traits because in current Gensokyo culture, youkai need to be like that or else be exterminated. They're forced to become more human to live alongside humans in a more peaceful manner.
That, and certain youkai evolve in a way that makes them gain something more akin to human intelligence (tanuki, kitsune etc.).

At least, that's what I was initially going for here.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 11:58:18 AM by OkashiiKisei »

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #511 on: October 09, 2012, 05:25:28 AM »
I wouldn't say need as much as the wiser youkai made it that way. In this type of environment, it is best if they don't try to exterminate all the humans.

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #512 on: October 17, 2012, 05:15:52 AM »
Wanna know what I'd love to see more in Touhou fandom?  (Probably not but d'oh well.)  I wanna see more of the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, you know the supposed previous one that originated from a MUGEN character.  That shrine maiden I respect, she solves all her issues with her fists and actually exterminates Youkai.  What does Reimu do?  Make up rules that pretty much only she can win at and boss everyone around, and also have an extremely annoying plot armor that pretty much makes her impervious to everything.

I'd also love to see more of the Win 98 characters, you know Shingyoku, Sariel, Yuugen Magaan, Kikuuri, Konngara, Genji etc etc and so forth.  Barely anyone's touched them ever in, well any of the works I've seen so it would be nice to see what the fanon can make out of these stepping stones of Touhou.

Another thing that I'd wish to see more of is, well a better system to scale the supposed "power levels" of the Touhous.  A good, and common example of this would be Meiling and Sakuya, Meiling being the, pretty much only Touhou that fights hand to hand and uses brute force seems to be the punching bag of everyone else just because Danmaku and ranged combat isn't her thing.  In all honesty she'd probably be able to whoop anyone's behind into next week given the fact that she seems to have relations with the dragons.  As we all know, the dragons are the highest power in Gensokyo (if memory serves correctly)

Lastly, less OP Mokou and Kaguya and more immortality =/= massive physical strength and durability.  If anything the more they die the less durable they should become.  (In the games they actually die after every spell card they use, they die to Danmaku, which is NON lethal, Dai even lasts longer then those two, and she's just a fairy!)

Error

  • No escape.
  • ˙ǝdɐɔsǝ oN
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #513 on: October 17, 2012, 07:45:34 PM »
In the games they actually die after every spell card they use
Pretty sure that's just limited to Mokou.
I want to say that her body is frail from constant abuse, but I don't know how the elixir works when it comes to that sort of thing...
Speaking of which, if she lost a limb, would it just reattach itself, or would it regrow?

ShiroiMahotsukai

  • White Mage with a Twist
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #514 on: October 17, 2012, 10:30:02 PM »
I reckon if she had the limb on hand she could stick it to the missing place and it'd re-attatch. Otherwise if it were blow into dust or something she'd probably grow a new one.

Anyone know any Yuuka doujins were she isn't ridiculously violent, I have read some but I'd like to know if there are a lot more.
"The eyes are the windows that let us gaze upon the soul"

Hakurou Tengu

  • End of Daylight
  • Pi-hyarara~ Pi-hyarara~
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #515 on: October 17, 2012, 10:37:53 PM »
Anyone know any Yuuka doujins were she isn't ridiculously violent, I have read some but I'd like to know if there are a lot more.
Try the entire Yuuka Kazmi's Sunflower Field anthology thing. It has quite a few of what you're looking for. Some of the comics are... odd. No nudity or yuri, just odd.

Aside from that, I really loved Death Wish Syndrome. Yuuka's a little synical, but not batshit insane. It's actually kinda sad, and more about Mokou than Yuuka. And how could I have possibly forgotten Nightbug in FLowerland? It's about both Wriggle and Yuuka. Pretty hilarious and the art is adorable~

These are all rather short though. Nothing too lengthy.
EDIT: Added one more thing.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:42:24 PM by Hakurou Tengu »
~We?re the only ones who can decide whether something was fortunate or unfortunate. It all depends on whether we find a new vision born within a different perspective~

Drake

  • *
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #516 on: October 17, 2012, 11:14:27 PM »
What does Reimu do?  Make up rules that pretty much only she can win at and boss everyone around, and also have an extremely annoying plot armor that pretty much makes her impervious to everything.
that isn't right at all though

I'd also love to see more of the Win 98 characters, you know Shingyoku, Sariel, Yuugen Magaan, Kikuuri, Konngara, Genji etc etc and so forth.  Barely anyone's touched them ever in, well any of the works I've seen so it would be nice to see what the fanon can make out of these stepping stones of Touhou.
Aside from Genji, this is probably because they literally have no personalities or attributes. Might as well just throw in original characters.

Another thing that I'd wish to see more of is, well a better system to scale the supposed "power levels" of the Touhous.
powerlevels don't exist in touhou
Meiling being the [...] punching bag of everyone else just because Danmaku and ranged combat isn't her thing.
This doesn't really apply to powerlevels, and the fandom doesn't beat up on Meiling because she prefers martial arts, but rather because her judged personality is rather silly and incompetent. It's slapstick that exists for the purpose of slapstick.

In all honesty she'd probably be able to whoop anyone's behind into next week given the fact that she seems to have relations with the dragons
no no no no no no no

Lastly, less OP Mokou and Kaguya and more immortality =/= massive physical strength and durability.  If anything the more they die the less durable they should become.  (In the games they actually die after every spell card they use, they die to Danmaku, which is NON lethal, Dai even lasts longer then those two, and she's just a fairy!)
In the games the heroines realize Mokou's immortal so they use lethal bullets. I'm not sure how this works logistically, but it's definitely said that they don't hold back because she's immortal, so you can't exactly compare it to any other character. Also, if they resurrect to a healthy non-damaged body having more or less durability than before isn't an issue. What exactly do you envision about immortality that doesn't include durability? The Hourai Elixir isn't just "if you die you resurrect", as far as I can tell.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #517 on: October 17, 2012, 11:33:17 PM »
Another thing that I'd wish to see more of is, well a better system to scale the supposed "power levels" of the Touhous.  A good, and common example of this would be Meiling and Sakuya, Meiling being the, pretty much only Touhou that fights hand to hand and uses brute force seems to be the punching bag of everyone else just because Danmaku and ranged combat isn't her thing.  In all honesty she'd probably be able to whoop anyone's behind into next week given the fact that she seems to have relations with the dragons.  As we all know, the dragons are the highest power in Gensokyo (if memory serves correctly)

The absolute silliness of the "Meiling = DRAGON" theory aside, we don't do powerlevel talk here. Do read the sticky when you get a chance.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #518 on: October 17, 2012, 11:43:51 PM »
Also, Miko Hakurei was made with Mugen in mind, so it's kind of an apples and oranges dealie there. Of course a fighting game character is going to be fistier.

That much said, yeah, we don't do power levels here. Gensokyo is a weird place and trying to quantify fighting strength into some flat number can only end in tears and bafflement.

It also ignores how unique some of the characters can be and cheapens the whole thing.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 11:48:20 PM by Stealthy Shooty STALKER »

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #519 on: October 17, 2012, 11:49:49 PM »
Pretty sure that's just limited to Mokou.
I want to say that her body is frail from constant abuse, but I don't know how the elixir works when it comes to that sort of thing...

Well, based on her narration in CiLR and such, it sounds like she starves herself, freezes herself, and doesn't let herself rest, among other things. Since she can't die she doesn't take care of her body, so she's always one step from death anyway.

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #520 on: October 18, 2012, 07:04:03 AM »
@Mokou: As Drake has already mentioned. In Imperishable Night, the protagonists talked about going all out when facing Mokou. So presumably, the attacks used are lethal and can definitely kill things. Mokou should not be talking about immortality, the protagonists decided to not hold back because of that. Just remember that Spell Card rules are just a set of guidelines to follow, you don't necessarily have to follow them. Here is an excerpt of one of the dialogues:

Quote
Reimu: I don't quite get it. If she's can't die, that means I can go all-out on her, right?
Yukari: More or less. It seems she's quite proud of not being able to die.


@Reimu and previous shrine maiden: The previous shrine maiden had to fight and presumably many of them died, because of the lack of spell card rules. Killing Reimu has bad consequences, so youkai try to avoid that, but accidents happen when they fight for real. Spell card rules are meant to circumvent this, for the sake of youkai and for Reimu's sake.

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #521 on: October 18, 2012, 07:33:11 AM »
Looks like I wasn't clear the first go around.

For starters by power levels I don't mean a flat number because we all know it's pretty much impossible to do so for the Touhou universe.  What I meant was a way to see whom is stronger than whom based off of combat skills and magic proficiency.  For instance let's say a fight broke out between our lovable idiot Cirno and the annoying as hell Tewi, who would win?  Would Tewi because of the traps and trickery she can use or would Cirno because she can just freeze everything, INCLUDING the air inside someone's lungs.  Reason I bring that up is because Cirno's power is the manipulation of cold which is NOT true cyrokinesis.  She can control the temperature of things, adding or taking away 'coldness', including the air inside someone's lungs thereby choking them essentially.

For immortality though in the extra stage Reimu and Yukari (because route A is always canon) do indeed go all out on Mokou, but during their fight with Kaguya they make no mention of going all out and they seem to just fight normally, (and Kaguya still dies, over and over again).  Also all the Hourai Elixir does is grant immortality, that's it.  It doesn't give you anything else, it just makes one, according to the wiki "Anyone who drinks this forbidden elixir will cease to age, never become ill, and will never be able to die. One will be as frail and vulnerable as before, but every injury shall cease; critical injuries will be healed in a matter of days. Complete destruction results in complete restoration".  With all this said the restoration process of the elixir isn't immediate like so many doujins and whatnot have seem to have portrayed it.  It takes days for a critical injury to heal.  Not that I don't mind instant healing Hourai Elixirs, just pointing it out.  Also lost limbs, I'd say they'd only grow back either after the Hourai reaches critical injuries and would normally die, or just grow back after a few days, MAYBE even reattach but that last one I'm not too fond of.

Now, with the WIN 98 characters, well just because they don't have personality doesn't mean we can't give them ones right?  Hell Momiji and Dai were just midstage bosses with no dialogue but fanon gave them life.  Why can't the same by done for the older characters?  I don't see any reason why not...I also don't see why either.  Jokes aside though aren't they also Touhous as well?  Why should they get the short end of the stick just because they're older   :wat: .

Onto Meiling, I don't see how, with the little dialogue she has had, she is stuck with the persona of being silly and incompetent, having a GATEkeeper when everyone can pretty much fly is pretty silly and incompetent.  If you need security like that just make your own security force, one person who specializes in martial arts can't really do much against flying people who specialize in a type of ranged combat that they invented.  Either way is Meiling is so useless why keep her around?  There has to be a reason right?  If you were in Remilia's shoes and you needed security for your mansion and your gatekeeper was about as useful as a scarecrow wouldn't you replace her?  Of course you would.  I'd say Meiling AT LEAST has some relations with the dragons, I'm not saying she is a dragon now, I'm just saying that she has, at least some form of connection with them.  If spell card rules are thrown aside then I'd personally think Meiling be one of the strongest in Gensokyo.

Lastly Reimu, that plot armor so thick you try to cut it with a knife but the knife would melt in your hands (see: plot armor).  It's canon that Reimu doesn't straight up win each fight, she has challenged people to rematches until she has won (yes, she has used 'continues') so she isn't as omnipotent as most people make her out to be (Hax sign: you just plain F***ing lose is a good example).  So less OP Reimu more fair fights.

P.S. Mokou's hair is violet not white.  ;)

Drake

  • *
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #522 on: October 18, 2012, 08:56:38 AM »
For starters by power levels I don't mean a flat number because we all know it's pretty much impossible to do so for the Touhou universe.  What I meant was a way to see whom is stronger than whom based off of combat skills and magic proficiency.  For instance let's say a fight broke out between our lovable idiot Cirno and the annoying as hell Tewi, who would win?  Would Tewi because of the traps and trickery she can use or would Cirno because she can just freeze everything, INCLUDING the air inside someone's lungs.  Reason I bring that up is because Cirno's power is the manipulation of cold which is NOT true cyrokinesis.  She can control the temperature of things, adding or taking away 'coldness', including the air inside someone's lungs thereby choking them essentially.
This is exactly what we're talking about. You cannot measure powerlevels in Touhou. At all. There are very abstract and purely theoretical categories, such as one could easily say Yukari is more powerful than Tokiko, but such statements are obvious to anybody and are therefore pointless. Once you get into areas where the differences are no longer obvious to everyone, powerlevels and theoretical fights collapse into unintelligible mush. Abilities are interpreted any which way because you take advantage of the ambiguous semantics of things like "manipulation of cold" (such as what you're doing, which has no basis whatsoever), you start speculating that Tewi can set traps and thus gain an advantage, etc. No, it's literally impossible to decide on an outcome. Very rarely in the series is anyone ever shown explicitly using the "limits" of their abilities, and no characters ever battle without restraint. That is the very point of the danmaku rules, and considering most battles are done as danmaku, there is nothing to work with. Abilities tell you nothing, danmaku and in-game appearances tell you nothing, speculation on theoretical scenarios and battles tell you nothing, descriptive canon material tells you little. This is why there is no "scale". There is nothing to measure.

You can have doujinshi portraying these scenarios all you want, but any real answer is not founded on any facts; it's just the whim of the writer who wins and who loses in any given scenario.

Quote
Now, with the WIN 98 characters, well just because they don't have personality doesn't mean we can't give them ones right?  Hell Momiji and Dai were just midstage bosses with no dialogue but fanon gave them life.  Why can't the same by done for the older characters?  I don't see any reason why not...I also don't see why either.  Jokes aside though aren't they also Touhous as well?  Why should they get the short end of the stick just because they're older   :wat: .
They get the short end of the stick because they're all largely uninspired and have little resemblance to the current cast. Dai and Momiji also had the advantage of being grouped together with other characters and settings and actually fit in the world without any effort. Sure, you could give the PC98 characters a personality and a setting and relations with other characters, but this is essentially just the same as shoving in an OC. I mean sure if writers want to then whatever cool, I mean Stuffman even has a brilliant ongoing interpretation of the Five Magic Stones, but there is no real point to giving these characters life, especially when you have so many others to work with. It isn't that they shouldn't be used as material, but they just likely won't get much attention for these reasons.

Quote
Onto Meiling, I don't see how, with the little dialogue she has had, she is stuck with the persona of being silly and incompetent, having a GATEkeeper when everyone can pretty much fly is pretty silly and incompetent.
The job of gatekeeper itself is a joke on ZUN's part, just the same as the border to the Netherworld in PCB. She's shown as silly and incompetent probably because of her awkward dialogue and inability to keep the player out, and it just expanded from there (PMiSS into IaMP etc); there doesn't have to be a huge reason why a popular interpretation catches on, and there isn't really a problem with that.

Quote
If you need security like that just make your own security force, one person who specializes in martial arts can't really do much against flying people who specialize in a type of ranged combat that they invented.  Either way is Meiling is so useless why keep her around?  There has to be a reason right?  If you were in Remilia's shoes and you needed security for your mansion and your gatekeeper was about as useful as a scarecrow wouldn't you replace her?  Of course you would. 
Her background isn't explored very well, but while I think there should be a reason, there doesn't have to be. That ambiguity is part of what makes Touhou wonderful; you can go write a story about how she became the gatekeeper and you probably won't be stepping on any toes. I'd say that Meiling was a part of Remilia's "army" heading into Gensokyo in the Vampire Incident. She might have been together for longer than the SDM's move to Gensokyo, but meh, the thread of evidence stops there.

Quote
I'd say Meiling AT LEAST has some relations with the dragons, I'm not saying she is a dragon now, I'm just saying that she has, at least some form of connection with them.  If spell card rules are thrown aside then I'd personally think Meiling be one of the strongest in Gensokyo.
no basis whatsoever, please explain how you come to this conclusion besides a chinese martial arts theme to her character and the character "dragon" on her hat

Quote
Lastly Reimu, that plot armor so thick you try to cut it with a knife but the knife would melt in your hands (see: plot armor).  It's canon that Reimu doesn't straight up win each fight, she has challenged people to rematches until she has won (yes, she has used 'continues') so she isn't as omnipotent as most people make her out to be (Hax sign: you just plain F***ing lose is a good example).  So less OP Reimu more fair fights.
I'm not sure what standards you're using for "plot" but Touhou doesn't really have any. Your definition of "plot armor" is essentially "the only endings in the games are when Reimu wins" but that should be utterly obvious to begin with. It's nonsensical that you can call beating the game "plot armor". I might even argue that mentioning she asks for rematches is evidence that she isn't overpowered, since it means that she does lose. You only notice that "she wins every time" because it's a required consequence of clearing the games.

Reimu didn't make up the spell card rules on her own, the rules don't say that she will eventually win, and they don't mean she can boss everyone around. Her role as the Hakurei Miko is what everyone else has to make note of, since she keeps up the Great Barrier and so you have to avoid killing her. Which would be pseudo-plot-armor, except, the spell card rules were created partly for the purpose of letting people win against Reimu. The implementation of the rules are like, the utter opposite of giving Reimu plot armor.

Quote
P.S. Mokou's hair is violet not white.  ;)
Coloration in shadow doesn't make it widely accepted. As far as I know there isn't any source saying she has purple hair, and the description on Touhouwiki is just looking at her portrait and going "ok I see purple in there". If any color besides white, people usually use gray or pale blue. Without any real support you just have to let that go to the fan decision, you can't really correct people on something without extra evidence.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #523 on: October 18, 2012, 09:03:32 AM »
For starters by power levels I don't mean a flat number because we all know it's pretty much impossible to do so for the Touhou universe.  What I meant was a way to see whom is stronger than whom based off of combat skills and magic proficiency.

Yeah, again, read the sticky. We don't do powerlevel talk here, as it leads to pointless pissing contests over who is truly stronger than who. It's unresolvable and needless.

I'd say Meiling AT LEAST has some relations with the dragons, I'm not saying she is a dragon now, I'm just saying that she has, at least some form of connection with them.

Everything about Meiling that has some "connection" to dragons can be attributed to her being Chinese. Period. "Meiling = dragon" fans are among the biggest offenders of powerlevel talk, in my experience, because - unlike other fans who like their peripheral characters on their own term -  these people have to grasp at straws and invent some reasons to justify liking her. She can't be liked just for her personality, design, fighting style, backstory or whatever; no, these folks pull pure speculation out of thin air and try to make her into something she simply is not. You don't see Wriggle fans spinning up some bullshit about how Wriggle is actually the Hakurei God or whatever - they like her own her own terms.

You're free to believe Hong Meiling is connected to dragons, that she's really Lady Gaga or whatever, but I cannot stress enough that powerlevel talk has absolutely no place here.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #524 on: October 19, 2012, 01:44:08 AM »
Yeah, again, read the sticky. We don't do powerlevel talk here.

It may be my own incompetence but I can't seem to find that sticky'd thread of yours that says we can't talk about powerlevels, (so if you could find it and link me to it that'd be appreciated) ON THAT NOTE I understand why people don't want them and the problems something like that would cause.  Guess that point of mine will never get across with so many misunderstandings, oh well.

Anywho, Drake earlier you said that
Quote from: Tengukami
In the games the heroines realize Mokou's immortal so they use lethal bullets.
With that in mind the story in IN goes that Reimu asks Yukari if she can go all out, Yukari see's no reason why she shouldn't so she does.  So, if someone can turn, pretty much a game of dodgeball into a lethal event then I think we can start getting a good sense of who's the alpha male in the pack.  Also after digging around (without much effort) I found that even the Touhou's themselves know who's stronger than the other.  In Inaba of the Moon and Inaba of the Earth when the entire Eientei crew go to the Scarlet Devil Mansion for the rocket ship party Remilia is having, Reisen, well remembers how much stronger Sakuya is compared to her so with that in mind we know that Sakuya > Reisen (as begrudgingly I'd have to admit that).  Also note I'm not trying to support a powerlevel scaling of any kind here, I'm just trying to get my points across. 

Also isn't this thread about stuff you want to see in fandom more?  Not the straight up facts about the series?  Cause I thought people wouldn't have to face a form of Spanish Inquisition about this sort of thing, I say something about seeing the differences in strength of the Touhou's and a dragon Meiling being able to beat Sakuya then pow, people start saying I'm wrong about something in fandom, real classy.

That aside for Reimu's nigh invulnerability I know that her winning is required to beat the game, all that I know, eye'm not stupid, but there are ways of, well beating her aside from killing her, like just beating her in a danmaku match like normal.  Except if she loses she'll keep on asking/demanding/whatevering rematches until she wins.  I dunno about you but if you're playing something like rock paper scissors against someone and the winner get's to keep a prize of some sorts, I don't think it's all that fair if one person get's to keep on trying until they win, even it if takes 20 some matches if that person wins once boom, they win no, two words about it.  That sounds like bossing people around to me.  Oh and she did make up all the spell card rules, it's written on the wiki somewhere but I forget where.  Just to clear things up though I'm not saying that Reimu should lose, cause you know she's the heroine of the game and all that jazz and having her lose at the end would be pretty darn disappointing, (even though at the end of Fairy Wars Cirno both won and lost against Marisa but that's an entire other ball of wax that doesn't need to be picked apart at this point in time).  Btw thanks for agreeing that Reimu isn't overpowered, too many people think she can, well take on an Imperial Star Destroyer without breaking a sweat.
 
Now for the Hong Dragon thing.  I'm not saying she IS a dragon, she COULD be a dragon because the type of youkai she is hasn't be confirmed yet, but her rainbow style danmaku, the little star on her head, hell even her name (see Hong Rainbow-Dragon) make references to dragons.  Oh and the wiki DOES say that Mokou's hair is violet, a very light almost white violet but a violet nonetheless, (and I'm also NOT saying that her hair HAS to be this colour, I'm just saying that it is in canon).

Again, why are we even talking about canon here?  I thought this thread was about what we would want to see more in fanon not to compare what I said to the actual canon, sweet baby beezus you two.  Lay off the new guy will you?  Some first impression you two are giving.

Drake

  • *
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #525 on: October 19, 2012, 03:39:53 AM »
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,6593.0.html It's a sticky that says "Please read this" lol.

Mainly the reason I'm jumping on your case about canon in a fandom thread is that you're talking about things as if they did have a factual basis and weren't just things you wanted to see. You're giving your reasons why you want some of these things to show up more often, but they're mostly unsubstantiated reasons, which is what's being called out.
Sorry if I don't go easy on newbies. I just wanted to correct you but your post was filled with things to correct and then you replied in return, so you're fair game lol.
But unlike the Spanish Inquisition, pretty much everyone should expect me :D

As far as "the characters know who's stronger than one another", that often doesn't ever explicitly show up, and when it does it's those more obvious things like Marisa beating Cirno with a flashlight. What's sort of nonobvious, is that Inaba wasn't written by ZUN; ZUN provided general settings and let Arata use the characters, but left the writing and art direction almost completely up to Arata to do what he wanted. As it's a comedy, it's very loose and wasn't really restricted on interfering with other canon material simply for comedic license, so as a general rule Inaba isn't really regarded as "canonical". Even though it's an official book, it probably shouldn't be called upon for facts unless those facts already exist elsewhere. But of course, if you wanted to use things from Inaba as material in your own fan material, then that isn't a problem.

Reimu didn't make the spell card rules by herself. It's entirely possible that she didn't even contribute to it herself at all, since the Draft was not written by her at all. Of course I do think she was very involved, and probably influential than most, but it's pretty blatantly stated in PMiSS that Reimu didn't make the rules, and that they were pretty much given/dropped off to her. Also, I'd like to point out that even though Akyuu states that Reimu has rematches until she wins, this is really just an analogue to using continues. Like I said, it's just a tidbit used to throw game elements into the setting. I have to stress that it's pretty much a necessary explanation, otherwise either Reimu would fail to resolve incidents and Gensokyo would be a mess, or Reimu would simply win every time, which would suck even more. If you think of it as using a continue, note the Bad Ends: you do go home, pack up and try again later. It isn't as if she just keeps fighting after she runs out of spells like your rock-paper-scissors scenario. One would think that going back to rest and prepare to set out and try again isn't something that only Reimu does.

(Also GFW's events are silly because even though in-game you "win", Cirno does actually lose; first it was just assumed since Cirno's clothes are tattered and Marisa's aren't, but it's now confirmed in SoPM that she lost, while Marisa was drunk, even)

About Meiling:
>In all honesty she'd probably be able to whoop anyone's behind into next week given the fact that she seems to have relations with the dragons
>I'd say Meiling AT LEAST has some relations with the dragons, I'm not saying she is a dragon now, I'm just saying that she has, at least some form of connection with them.  If spell card rules are thrown aside then I'd personally think Meiling be one of the strongest in Gensokyo.

This doesn't imply just a personal preference, you're claiming that Meiling actually has these traits when she doesn't, and then you use that as your basis for things you want to see. She doesn't have a connection with Dragons as in Touhou's Dragons, she just has theming inspired by chinese martial arts, which often includes dragons. Sure you can use that connection if you want to write a story or doujinshi, but you can't equate them as if it actually means anything.

About Mokou:
Your assertion that it's violet is the problem though. The wiki says her hair is violet, and I can see the violet, but as I mentioned, as far as I can tell there's no source other than the portrait itself saying it's violet, which means the description on the wiki is baseless. To that extent, you can't just say it's violet as if it is indeed canon. Normally that isn't something I'd take issue with, but if everyone normally says she has white hair and everyone portrays her as having white hair, trying to correct them based on what the wiki says, which also is based on nothing, is pretty unnecessary.

(Also this is TARC, we can basically talk about canon in any thread as long as it's an actual discussion that's somewhat relevant; if we keep continuing maybe we'll go somewhere else but this is mainly about how you're trying to use facts that don't really exist as support for the "stuff you wish to see")
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 03:44:41 AM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #526 on: October 19, 2012, 03:52:30 AM »
The first rule of thumb in the English-speaking Touhou fandom is to never trust the wiki. I don't dislike the wiki as a concept, and it's certainly an easier way to introduce a new fan than asking them to read the dialog of every single game or read all the side materials, but it is absolutely not something that anyone should ever cite as if it's somehow more reliable than some random fan. This isn't anyone's fault in particular, it's just the nature of it being a wiki. Some confused person adds something false they think is true, some translator misses a reference in a spellcard, or even some transcriber makes a typo in the Japanese text dumps. Absolutely nothing there is reliable. Which isn't even really a problem since the fandom is supposed to be about drawing your own conclusions anyway.

As for Mokou's hair, there's a picture of her as a child in CiLR, and she has black hair. So my assumption has always been that her hair turned white with age, or perhaps from some trauma she experienced in her long life. Which actually has the interesting implication that her hair is immune to the elixir for some reason.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 04:23:16 AM by Clarste »

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #527 on: October 19, 2012, 04:06:55 AM »
Well how in the world did I miss that, part of my brain must have been shut off due to fatigue or something, now I just feel silly  ::) .

Anywho most of this was just a test run by me to see how this forum works (I've seen some craaaaazy things) and honestly I like it here :D .

Back to topic, fanon needs more gadget oriented Nitori, almost steampunk like.

That is all.

Athrel

  • v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
  • v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #528 on: October 19, 2012, 04:42:20 AM »
"Meiling = dragon" fans are among the biggest offenders of powerlevel talk, in my experience, because - unlike other fans who like their peripheral characters on their own term -  these people have to grasp at straws and invent some reasons to justify liking her. She can't be liked just for her personality, design, fighting style, backstory or whatever; no, these folks pull pure speculation out of thin air and try to make her into something she simply is not.

I think that mainly got popular as a response the the meme of Sakuya knifing Meiling rather than for no reason. As a fan of Meiling myself, I don't believe in that idea, though I do enjoy artwork where she is portrayed with dragon-like characteristics.

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #529 on: October 19, 2012, 06:31:00 AM »
Quote
What's sort of nonobvious, is that Inaba wasn't written by ZUN; ZUN provided general settings and let Arata use the characters, but left the writing and art direction almost completely up to Arata to do what he wanted. As it's a comedy, it's very loose and wasn't really restricted on interfering with other canon material simply for comedic license, so as a general rule Inaba isn't really regarded as "canonical".

I must disagree with this sentiment. I find this kind of reasoning really bad and presumptuous. Inaba of Earth/Moon is an official manga, so the events in it would be considered canon, much like the 3 fairies manga and Kasen's manga. That said, if there are interferences, then, you can argue, hey this is not canon, because XYZ does not make sense since I see information from another canon source saying otherwise. Otherwise, I see no reason to treat it as non-canon material.

@Reimu and spell card rules: Reimu is assumed to have approved the spell card rules, but she did not create the rules. There is a spell card rules article and it talks about spell card rules.

@spell card rules: Now spell card rules are there so that Touhous don't use their full power. What if a youkai really wants to win and there were no rules determining a victory condition? The default victory condition, beating down your opponent gets used. Well, in that scenario, you get a possibility that Reimu can be killed and bad things will happen to Gensokyo.

Drake

  • *
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #530 on: October 19, 2012, 07:33:13 AM »
Spell card rules: Uh I know. Not sure what you're trying to say.

Inaba: Sorry, please pay attention to the context there, it was a somewhat poor choice of words. It isn't that Inaba should just be outright ignored, just that it shouldn't ever be taken too seriously, and events and saying in Inaba probably shouldn't be used by themselves as argument. Usually this is only the case when there are indeed conflicts with existing material (usually mild), or when some event, especially something that is used for a joke, is taken without other evidence to have some larger consequences, such as the usual example of "Eirin catches a cold". Aside from these cases, there isn't much to run around wildly with anyways, so I don't feel it's proper to say for example "The Wakatsukis didn't come back to Eientei", since this has little reason to be skeptical about it. The reason why I'd reject Sakuya > Reisen is because it wasn't stated by ZUN, the claim otherwise has no support, and characters talking about one being stronger than another happens almost never. Running with Reisen's quote and using it to imply other things is a bit careless, I think.

That being said, I definitely do not agree with it being on the same level as WaHH and Three Fairies. Inaba is a gag manga, and it was also not written by ZUN. That should clearly be enough to question its contents on some level. WaHH and Three Fairies are not gag manga, actually have active depictions of Gensokyo, the latter being used as big literary device to explore Gensokyo as a neutral 3rd party, contain decent amounts of information, actually have a plot and semblance of plots respectively, and are actually written by ZUN. I don't see the label "official" as "I should listen to this without question". I would say Seasonal Dream Vision's comics are also "official", yet should not be used as sources of information at all.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #531 on: October 19, 2012, 08:13:57 AM »
Again, why are we even talking about canon here?  I thought this thread was about what we would want to see more in fanon not to compare what I said to the actual canon, sweet baby beezus you two.  Lay off the new guy will you?  Some first impression you two are giving.

Well I'm sorry you feel put upon. But it's a little unnerving when you're told, twice, that powerlevel talk isn't done here but you insist on going ahead and talking about it anyway. And then contend that there's some "misunderstanding" about it. Folks here understand perfectly well what powerlevels are - they're just forbidden here. Hope that's not a deal-breaker for you.

Second, yes, this thread is about what we want to see in fanon more. Unfortunately, one of the things you said you wanted to see more of is "a better system to scale the supposed 'power levels' of the Touhous" which, as was pointed out, is problematic as powerlevel talk is just not on the table here.

As far as canon goes, this is a board where canon gets picked apart to death. There've been multi-page threads based on the Maribel = Yukari theory. We have people here who love digging into canon and, dare I say, a few folks here who can be downright pedantic and hair-splitting when it comes to canon. As you've probably noticed by now, some people have more of a sense of humor than others when it comes to canon speculation. So when you make tenuous claims about Touhou canon - especially the whole "Meiling and dragons" thing, people can and most likely will jump on that. If someone's being really nitpicky, my suggestion would be to just let it roll off your back, because such people are never, ever going to back down from an argument, but in the eyes of everyone else they're not "right" so much as they are "spergy".

Personally, I think anything linking Meiling to dragons could very well be said to link her to China, the country, for which dragons are a long-standing emblem. This connection, to me, is a lot more obvious than the "connections to dragons" thing but hey, past experience has taught me that fans who hold this theory aren't going to back down from it, so I'll just leave it at that.

Anyways, hope you enjoy your time here!

I think that mainly got popular as a response the the meme of Sakuya knifing Meiling rather than for no reason. As a fan of Meiling myself, I don't believe in that idea, though I do enjoy artwork where she is portrayed with dragon-like characteristics.

Oh, totally. I know plenty of Meiling fans who are ... regular fans of hers. And I can definitely appreciate wanting to stick up for a peripheral character who doesn't get much backstory and is sort of the punching bag of other characters. I have little issue with Meiling (in fact, "Chinese Tea" is one of my favorite songs in the series).

So yeah, maybe that's something I'd like to see more of - "normal" Meiling. Her daily life, the things she attends to and takes care of, maybe some secret hobby she engages in in private that no one else knows about.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #532 on: October 19, 2012, 08:33:05 AM »
At any rate I think any discussion of power levels gets really redundant really fast when a character who is a literal walking nuke exists and arguably ISN'T the biggest threat in the series.

The correct answer to the question "Who would win?" is "NO SURVIVORS, NO REMAINS." It's sort of like the Cold War, except with memorably ridiculous outfits and theme songs and fancy bullet patterns and also everyone's considerably more chill and events of any sort of remote importance tend to end in tea parties rather than Mexican standoffs.

Goldom

  • Whee
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #533 on: October 19, 2012, 06:24:01 PM »
Oh hey, I thought of one. Reimu wielding needles instead of amulets. Besides the occasional loose picture, they're totally ignored most of the time.

Athrel

  • v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
  • v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #534 on: October 19, 2012, 07:55:46 PM »
I'd like to see more of Makai in fandom for a two reasons. Firstly, because it seems to be a very unique and varied place so I think it would be interesting to see different artist's interpretations of how different areas in it look. Secondly I think it would be interesting to see what the makai residents (not shinki, just the average residents) do during their average day.

Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #535 on: October 20, 2012, 11:09:27 AM »
I've seen a bit of them, but not too many English translated Ten Desires cast focal doujinshi. Some of them seem interesting.

game2011

  • mgneiptGD
    • Sexy Womans in your city for night
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #536 on: October 20, 2012, 01:53:24 PM »
I'm surprised nobody made a pic of Star Sapphire and the character of the same name from DC Comics being together (or merged together) yet.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #537 on: October 20, 2012, 02:58:14 PM »
I did see a couple of those after GFW came out, but I guess she's not a character people care enough about to keep that joke going. Shame, too, because I thought it was funny.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Ikari

  • I'm just so charismatic
  • It's turning into derp
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #538 on: October 21, 2012, 04:41:40 AM »
I'd personally like to see ''weaker'' characters (Wriggle, Mystia, Nazrin, Rumia, the Aki sisters, Hina, Yamame, pretty much every stage 1 and 2 bosses ever) have their own little story and end up doing something amazing (Beating a ''stronger'' character in a danmaku duel, etc) and stuff. Even though powerlevels don't exist in Touhou (Which is great, in my opinion), few people try to make a character who is essentially weaker do things you wouldn't expect them to do. I've always believed that in the Touhou universe, everyone could do anything if they were truly determined. Since stage 1 and 2 characters rarely have much resolve when fighting, usually doing it for fun or annoyance, I think it would be nice to see them be driven by a goal that would truly matter to them.

And about Reimu's needles, I actually like seeing them being left out; Not only do I personally have a fear of needles, I think it doesn't fit very well in the slightly more fun-oriented danmaku duels; Receiving a star made of energy on you and getting your skin pierced by needles are definitely very different.

Drake

  • *
Re: Stuff you wish to see in fandom more
« Reply #539 on: October 21, 2012, 04:53:49 AM »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -