Author Topic: Magical Lotus - Mahou Shoujou Byakuren - Episode 2, part 3 (Read 37381 times)

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #300 on:** July 17, 2012, 03:01:35 PM »

In this case, youkai and demon are pretty much the same thing, outsiders of the world as it's known with claims of persecution due to their natures. And she was doing that sort of thing before she got sealed, too. It's why she got sealed. So having not been sealed isn't really much of a cognizant point. The point is, this is exactly the kind of thing she'd do, regardless of the proper noun.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #301 on:** July 17, 2012, 03:04:57 PM »

Either way, things are against you man. This guy's proved to be a very legit danger.
And to add to that, is quite unwilling to change his ways. (Does it even have a defined gender beyond having a vaguely masculine voice?)
You can try it, but the odds are lower than than Okuu swearing off boiled eggs. (Hint: Not likely to be happenin'.)

Not everything can be resolved how you would like it after all, I would have thought that you of all people would know that.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #302 on:** July 17, 2012, 03:17:15 PM »

That's largely metagame logic, though, which doesn't really have a role in how a character would actually think. It doesn't matter if, looking at a game perspective, that it's got a high chance of failure of narrative reasons. It matters that the character would do this thing because it's what they would do. That's kind of the reason we play a character, rather than an OC, to deal with a situation with the character's framework of reference. I mean, if we were playing Youmu, there wouldn't have even been any question, it would have been stabbed in the head and we'd have all gone out for ice cream. If it were Patchouli, we probably would have tried to steal it's power or something. So as I've said in the past, if this solution is a problem, let's hear some suggestions for solutions that are in character, and we'll bang away at them to make them work better that what I've come up with.

And to be fair, part of the point of my solution is to directly challenge its nature. It'll have to adapt if it wants to get anywhere, and in being forced to adapt it'll have to open its mind. So to run with your metaphor, if Okuu can't eat boiled eggs without getting a real bad rash all of a sudden, she's going to rethink eating them.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #303 on:** July 17, 2012, 05:34:43 PM »

The impression I've been getting is that the thing literally cannot adapt, cannot change. You're still thinking about these demons as though they were humans or youkai, but that, from what I've been seeing, is quite inaccurate. I realize it may seem impossible to you that a thinking being would be incapable of change, but this is fiction, not reality. All the magic and stuff is impossible, but you have no problem accepting all that as part of the context; surely you could accept a seemingly impossible mental state as part of the context, too.

Also, Hanzo's right; we're simply going along with Kiku destroying the demon, and doing so very reluctantly (and after exhausting any other options we could think of). And given Kiku's thoughts on the seal plan, I'm pretty sure she'll kill the thing even if we do seal its power. As I've been saying, Purvis, the demon is going to die, whether you (or Byakuren) like it or not.

Also also, you've still got this attitude of your interpretation of Byakuren being the 'correct' one, but character interpretations are, in large part, a matter of opinion. In most works of fiction, characters are more clearly defined, but in Touhou, characterization is deliberately kept loose precicely to allow room for different interpretations (also, this is AU, so there's even more room). Your interpretation of Byakuren, for instance, takes the Buddhist thing much farther than any other I've seen (most barely even mention it, if even that). There's nothing wrong with doing that, as long as you, a: don't expect everyone to agree with that interpretation, and b: don't take the attitude that people who disagree with your interpretation are somehow wrong.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #304 on:** July 17, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »

The cannot adapt, cannot change thing is the impression youkai in Touhou used to give as well; and still give if you ask Akyu on a day where it's too humid.

As for interpretation, I invite you to present evidence to the contrary. So far, I've argued things that have happened based on actions Byakuren has taken which have shown us her personality and her relationship with her faith. If you want to disagree, that's fine, but back it up. Show me some evidence she would be okay with killing a demon, or being party to it. I've shown you quite a bit to back up my interpretation, show me something to back up a different one that addresses the facts. And as I've said a dozen times, if you have a problem with the solution, propose a better one that is in character. As it stands, neither killing something that cannot defend itself nor being party to such is in character, based on her faith and her past. Morals don't go out the window for a strongly moral character because it's convenient. Others might do this, but Byakuren isn't one of them. Her history, and her current doings, say otherwise.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #305 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:05:38 PM »

I've explained my own position quite thoroughly, as has Hanzo. And you've done so, as well. That being said, it's pretty clear that we're not going to come to an agreement on this.

We know you want to spare the demon, whereas I see no choice but to end it. Hanzo, you're the tiebreaker.

Oldmansour · « **Reply #306 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:50:28 PM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 17, 2012, 02:42:20 PM

>What has Lily been up to? She was vocal for awhile, then seemed to fade away.

>Lily has had her hand cupped in her chin for a while, since you and the demon were discussing 'Terran weakness'. She seems to be thinking hard about something.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #307 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:53:56 PM »

>"Have any ideas, Lily?"

Oldmansour · « **Reply #308 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:00:31 PM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 17, 2012, 07:53:56 PM

>"Have any ideas, Lily?"

>"I... think I understand." the blonde woman says slowly, not certain of whatever she's about to say. "When someone... questions what they are, who they are, it means they're not sure. What people are isn't set in stone; we change every day." Lily looks at you. "When you see someone who's lost, someone looking for answers, you want to help them, don't you?"

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #309 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:03:28 PM »

>"Yes."

Oldmansour · « **Reply #310 on:** July 17, 2012, 08:17:06 PM »

Quote from: GuyYouMetOnline on July 17, 2012, 08:03:28 PM

>"Yes."

>Looking at Chrysanthemum, Lily gets the same response to her question. "It is our duty to offer guidance. When a soul is lost." she adds with a snarl at the demon.
>"But a demon.... You don't." Lily continues, looking at the demon now, who returns her look with its vile eyes. "You see that as weakness. And you use it against people."
>The demon does not disagree with the blonde's theory.
>"It is evil's nature." Chrysanthe states. "To take whatever aspect of humanity they can use and twist it to their own purposes."
>Somewhat to your surprise, Lily does not seem fazed by the tiger youkai's rage, looking at you instead. "But, if that's ALL a demon is, ALL it does, does that mean everything it's said has been lies and manipulation? I'm not as good as you are at this, but, do you think that's what it's been doing?"

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #311 on:** July 17, 2012, 09:24:22 PM »

>"You feel it's been lying about what it's told us about itself?"

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #312 on:** July 17, 2012, 10:07:19 PM »

>"Or are you more saying that you don't think it's capable of understanding what I'm saying at all?"

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #313 on:** July 17, 2012, 10:38:24 PM »

Well, I'm leaning more towards GYMO's side of things, and have been for some time now.
The best we can really do for it is to pray that it can work off it's karma. Since making it the cute mascot that every magical girl series has isn't gonna work out.
(Maybe another one can have that done.)

Besides, trying to spare it is pushing Kiku away. Do you really want to push away someone we just went to all that effort to save?

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #314 on:** July 17, 2012, 11:29:57 PM »

Somehow, I don't think Byakuren is the sort of person to be party to murder just to spare someone's feelings. And we haven't even tried anything yet, it's kind of weird to assume everything is going to fail no matter what.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #315 on:** July 18, 2012, 12:50:26 AM »

Kiku's turned down the sealing option, so even if we try the seal anyways, Kiku will likely still kill the demon. Just letting it go isn't an option, so that leaves ending it. If you can think of another option, go ahead, but if not, then there really isn't another choice.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #316 on:** July 18, 2012, 12:56:26 AM »

She's turned it down, that doesn't mean she can't be convinced. Particularly if Lily is in favor of it, which is why I've been asking her. I'm not really seeing her doing it afterward. At least not right now.

Oldmansour · « **Reply #317 on:** July 18, 2012, 12:57:29 AM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 17, 2012, 09:24:22 PM

>"You feel it's been lying about what it's told us about itself?"

>Lily looks somewhat helpless. "I really don't know. I know this much about myself, Lotus, I give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm not that good at spotting people when they're lying, or trying to get one over on me. And, well..." She spares a glance at the demon, who has remained stationary for quite some time now. "Flying snakes are even harder."

Quote from: GuyYouMetOnline on July 17, 2012, 10:07:19 PM

>"Or are you more saying that you don't think it's capable of understanding what I'm saying at all?"

>"I think...." she pauses, trying to focus her thoughts. She's obviously unaccustomed to dealing with this kind of subject. "I think it understands. At least, as much as it can. See, if it's from another world, wouldn't it make sense if there were parts of our... our lives, our emotions, that would be alien to it? Just like there's parts of it that have to be alien to us. Besides the flying snake thing, I mean."

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #318 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:04:18 AM »

>Nod.
>"I've been wondering that myself, Lily. What do you think about resolving this?"

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #319 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:05:29 AM »

I'm with GYMO man, there's really no other options.

Oldmansour · « **Reply #320 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:10:09 AM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 18, 2012, 01:04:18 AM

>Nod.
>"I've been wondering that myself, Lily. What do you think about resolving this?"

>Lily looks at the demon, then at the still steaming with rage Chrysanthemum, then at you.
>"I know... that it's evil...." Chrysanthe nods slowly, sensing her impending triumph. Lily follows that statement with, "But.... if there was a better way...." She shakes her head, and when she looks at you again, there are actually tears in her eyes. "I don't want to kill it. Gods help me, Lotus, I DON'T! There HAS to be another way!"

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #321 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:12:36 AM »

Except for the fact we have magic that thus far we've been able to do literally anything with. Thus, we have pretty much any option we want, it's just a trick of making it work. We could turn it into Bob the Goldfish if we find a way to make it work within our themes.

>Nod to Lily.
>Can we still do mental contact with her? If so, forward her the plan we proposed to Kiku.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #322 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:19:49 AM »

* Hanzo K. sighs vexedly

Purvis, just do us a favor and give up, alright? I think we're starting to stagnate here.
GYMO's in favor of sending him to the next life, I think it's the best option we have at this point, you're really the only player pushing to not do it.

Don't forget, if it has a soul, it can reincarnate. best thing we can do is free it to reincarnate, and pray that next lifetime won't be as bad.

Oldmansour · « **Reply #323 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:23:02 AM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 18, 2012, 01:12:36 AM

>Nod to Lily.
>Can we still do mental contact with her? If so, forward her the plan we proposed to Kiku.

>"Have you taken leave of your senses?" Chrysanthe bellows.
>To her credit, Lily does not flinch, and gives the tiger youkai an angry look of her own. "There's always a better way, if you try hard enough!"
>"Optimistic fool. You're as idealistic as she is." the miko snarls, pointing at you.

>You can, and do so. And it seems Lily can, as well, as she sends back, "So that's what Kiku meant when she said something about 'too risky.' A short pause. "I want to try. Even if it doesn't work, I couldn't live with myself if we didn't try.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #324 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:30:33 AM »

I also appear to be the only player looking at this from an in character point of view. It is not a thing Byakuren would do or be in favor of, her canonical history shows this. Nothing about this setting contradicts that. Her faith is very much not in favor of killing people. In fact, as I established, this demon is pretty much a direct parallel to the people she got sealed away for sparing and trying to cultivate. What you are suggesting simply Is Not A Thing She'd Do. And given we're playing Byakuren Quest rather than Magical Girl OC Quest, this is pretty central to what would and would not be acceptable for her.

As well, we now have another character who is not in favor of doing this. And we have other options. We have literally all the options we can think of and power. If the solution I've proposed is a problem, propose a better one. Don't propose one that is out of character.

>Turn our senses toward Kiku. Does anything feel awry about her?

Oldmansour · « **Reply #325 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:33:14 AM »

Quote from: The Man From P.U.R.V.I.S. on July 18, 2012, 01:30:33 AM

>Turn our senses toward Kiku. Does anything feel awry about her?

>You can't sense her as strongly as you did before, but you don't need mystical senses to see her anger, and her hurt. She does not appear to be influenced by anything other than her own emotions anymore, now that you've brought her over to the Light.

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #326 on:** July 18, 2012, 01:35:22 AM »

See? You're hurting Kiku by forcing that. We went to a lot of effort to save her.
And now you're pushing her away by trying to spare it.

Like it or not, you're outnumbered.

GuyYouMetOnline · « **Reply #327 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:01:54 AM »

Purvis, I keep saying that if you can think of another option, then give it a try. I can't think of another option, and since you have yet to propose one, I assume you've so far failed to do so, as well.

Also, as I've said before, we clearly have different character interpretation here. You don't have to agree with ours, or even have to like it. If you think we're wrong in our interpretation, that's fine, but you do need to accpet that we do have a different interpretation, and that the fact that we do is not wrong, whatever you may think of the interpretation itself. You think Hanzo and I are proposing an out-of-character action; Hanzo and I do not (a note: I intend to play it in a manner similar to what Lily seems to think, that of really, really wanting to avoid killing it but finding no way to do so, and ending its life with significant regret that we couldn't find another way). Since we're pretty clearly not going to agree, then as Hanzo said, it is two-to-one.

Hello Purvis · « **Reply #328 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:20:46 AM »

Yes, and quite a bit of canon that says that interpretation is not correct, and nothing in this setting that interpretation is correct in these circumstances. Byakuren wouldn't be party to a killing, it's just not who she is. Moreso in the case of a youkai analgoue. As for Kiku, frankly, being angry isn't justification for ending someone's life, it's not different when our side does it. It's interesting that Lily agrees with this sentiment, if you're looking for metagame indicators.

So yeah, Sealing of some sort is the only real option that would be in character, even if it has a chance of failing. It is more ethical in Byakuren's viewpoint than killing it. If sealing isn't good enough, we have all kinds of magic, suggest better.

>Send to Lily: "We're going to need to convince Kiku, and I don't think I can do it alone."
>Has there been any event in our background history that would lead us to be at all in favor of killing Champi?

Hanzo K. · « **Reply #329 on:** July 18, 2012, 02:25:48 AM »

>Belay

Even so, majority rule. You're outvoted. Pack it in man.
Like the song says, "You gotta know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em."