Author Topic: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings  (Read 27719 times)

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
My recent discussions have led me to retranslate a few old passages from the character profiles, which may help clarify some long-standing confusions. This is a compilation of them. My Japanese skill is limited, so correct me if I'm wrong.

UPDATE: Updated the entry on spirit strikes.

Touhou 6: ESoD
1. Flandre Scarlet profile
Quote
Perhaps she doesn't even know whether there's any difference between what she eats and living humans.
The profile actually says perhaps Flandre can't tell if there's any difference between her human blood food and living humans, (because the food tastes just like human, or because she has never tasted living human?) i.e. her mind is undeveloped, and she doesn't know anything about life.

This clarifies the confusion that the SDM makes food using living humans. There's no concrete proof for that.


2. Name of the SDM library
The appendix to Eastern and Little Nature Deity includes an introduction to Touhou characters. This introduction is not written by ZUN, and is infamous for its many errors, one of which is calling the library "Voile Library". The publisher issued errata (supervised by ZUN) correcting it to "the library inside SDM".

In other words, not only is the library never called Voile in canon, it is canonically nameless.


3. Canon spelling of Flandre's name
The EaLND appendix misspells several English names. It spells her name as "Frandoll". The errata's correction is "Frandre".

PMiSS should be a more reliable source on name spellings, since it has TOKIAME, who has always been working closely with ZUN, writing each character's name in caligraphy. PMiSS spells her name as "Frandle".

Why the inconsistency? My guess is that ZUN came up the name as pure katakana that feels European, without thinking through what it is in European language.

In language, convention is more important than "factual correctness". so I don't see any need to try to stop people using "Flandre". I prefer "Flandre", too.


Touhou 7: PCB and Touhou 9: PoFV
The door to Netherworld
At the end of PCB Stage 4 there was the door to Netherworld. People often see an "eye" on the door. It is in fact a door knot. Anyone familiar with East Asia culture already know that, and this can be verified from the original texture file in game.


Touhou 8: IN
1. Houraisan Kaguya profile
Quote
Out of curiosity, she had Eirin make the Hourai elixir - a forbidden medicine, and participated in its making.
The IN profile doesn't say Kaguya drunk the elixir. Also, her motivation was curiosity.
Quote
Several years later, [everyone considered] / [it was publically recognized that] Kaguya's crime had been atoned for, and it was time for her to return to the moon.
Only a few years, and Kaguya's crime was considered cleared. Apparently exile on earth for a few years is equal to capital punishment. When Eirin recounted the past in CiLR, "Kaguya's crime had been atoned for" was no longer mentioned.

My understanding is, ZUN made a few very stealthy retcons when writing Silent Sinner in Blue / Cage in Lunatic Runagate. In the end, this may be just another theory, and has been overridden anyway, so you don't have to agree.

IN:
Kaguya's power over eternity makes her naturally immortal. The Hourai elixir is made using a fraction of her power (ghost team ending). It's also not mentioned anywhere that those who drunk the elixir is considered tainted. Only Mokou and Eirin drunk the elixir.

SSiB / CiLR:
Kaguya drunk the elixir, and is thus considered forever tainted. Kaguya and Mokou are both immortals created by the elixir. Chang'e is introduced, and the moon rabbits have been working for 3000 years as a replacement of her punishment.

(Full post is here.)


2. Fujiwara no Mokou profile
Quote
Kaguya is but another human forced to change where she lives [i.e. on the run]. Knowing that Kaguya is [in] the same [situation] as her, Mokou felt her drive/rage suddenly went away.

I still despise Kaguya. And Kaguya is still trying to destroy me. However, I won't die. Each day is so fulfilling. This place, deep in the mountain, away from the human village, is no different from Hourai/Penglai.

To live, is wonderful.
Mokou's issues are less severe than people tend to assume. The correct translation of her IN profile shows she had already lost her thousand-year-long grudge, and later she would receive new character development in CiLR: she stopped being hung up on Kaguya, deciding that even without Kaguya, she can still enjoy her life in Gensokyo.

ZUN calls Mokou a "person of Hourai" partially because of the elixir, partially because she is living freely now. Calling the immortals "people of Hourai" is fanon.

(Full posts is here and here.)


Touhou 7.5: IaMP and other games
Two types of bombs
There are actually two types of bombs in the Windows canon: Spell Cards and Spirit Strikes.

The bombs in most shooting games are Spell Cards, while the bombs in IaMP, MoF and SA are Spirit Strikes. Spirit Strike is also available in SWR/Soku as a System Card (unlike in IaMP, it does no damage). That's why the bombs in MoF and the fighting games appear as a circle of shockwave sent out from the character, very different from spell card bombs. Meanwhile, the bombs in SA are Remote Spirit Strikes, meaning that they come from the partner characters.

The English translation patches have always translated Spirit Strikes as simply "Bombs" following the original UI text in IaMP, that's why this difference is not obvious to oversea fans.

In the PC-98 games, "Spirit Strike" is the name for Reimu's bomb attack, and can be seen in the UI of HRtP and SoEW, and in the manual files for PoDD, LLS and MS. The bombs in PC-98 games look and function very differently from the Spirit Strikes of Windows canon.


BAiJR and other books
Tengu newspaper
The numbering (e.g. "1st of Fumitsuki") in the tengu newspaper headers are very likely not dates, especially not Gregorian dates. Instead, the numbers are probably issue numbers (e.g. "1st issue of the seventh moon in youkai lunar calendar").

Full post is here.


PMiSS
1. Yukari Yakumo
There is no critical mistranslation in PMiSS's Yukari entry. However, people often seem to forget an important fact stated here: Gensokyo is surrounded by two borders.

The first border is Border of the Illusionary and the Real (I'd translate it as Border of the Unreal and the Real). It is proposed and implemented by Yukari over 500 years ago, turning Gensokyo into a land of the unreal. The youkai who had grown weak in the outside world would automatically feel the call of Gensokyo, and migrate into it, ensuring  youkai to stay strong in Gensokyo. Foreign youkai began migrating into Gensokyo after this event.

The second border is the 1885 Great Hakurei Barrier, which is a Barrier of Common Sense (PMiSS Afterword, CoLA, CiLR), separating Gensokyo from the outside world. Yukari is said to be among the sages who proposed the barrier.

Another thing to note is that Gensokyo has existed long before there was any border. For example, the First Lunar War happened over 1000 years ago.


2. Draft of Spell Card Rules
The third reason behind the rules, in the "Concept" section:
Quote
Pure determination-by-strength is to be denied.
The current translation "use of one's full abilities is to be denied" seems like an attempt to convey the spirit of the text rather than a mistranslation.

Nonetheless, there is a difference in meaning. The original text makes it clearer that it's about leveling the playing field between the strong and the weak, not forbidding everyone to use full power.


3. Akyu's age
The news article about the ninth Child of Miare is accompanied by a photo depicting a young girl a few years old. The scan of the whole page can be seen here.

In the original context, there is very little doubt that the girl in the photo is Akyu.

The most plausible explanation is: a girl was born some years before 1994, and something happened in 1994 summer, turning her into Akyu, the ninth Child of Miare. Akyu thinks of the event in 1994 summer as her birth.

For a detailed examination of this issue, see here.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 05:48:49 PM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

N-Forza

  • Information Superhighway Robbery
  • *
  • I said it was a steal, but not for whom
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 12:01:16 AM »
But I thought Flandre was pretty much accepted?

Still, you're right that the game profiles themselves need to be revised. I've been focusing on the books so much lately that I haven't even considered it.

Drake

  • *
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 12:10:13 AM »
The SDM library is called Voile in the stage 4's music title, and then it was expanded upon in Afterword Shanghai Alice Correspondence where ZUN mentions that the name holds no real meaning. Whether or not the name was corrected in the fairies manga doesn't change that, but it does make it an odd thing to correct.

Flandre is the french name for Flanders County, which is famous for the battlefields in WWI, dubbed Flanders Fields. Not only is there the imagery of bloodshed, but also for the red poppies that covered the graves and so on so forth. Even if there's an inconsistency, "Flandre" is likely what ZUN was going for anyways.

While I acknowledge the retcon point, I think it's more of an expansion than anything. In her profile she's banished (well, attempted to be killed) for what's implied as getting Eirin to create the elixir, but even she did it out of curiosity there's no real reason why she would want to since she was already immortal, so that's weird. Eirin not being punished as well would also be really odd. Not explicitly mentioning that the elixir causes impurity doesn't really matter since obviously it was bad enough in some way that it warranted death, regardless of who made it or drank it or whatever. If Kaguya were just a Lunarian then it also seems weird that she just randomly holds power over eternity. This seems like a pretty natural and progressive explanation, to me.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 01:19:40 AM »
Yes, that's what I meant, no need to change a name so commonly accepted.
Flandre is the french name for Flanders County, which is famous for the battlefields in WWI, dubbed Flanders Fields. Not only is there the imagery of bloodshed, but also for the red poppies that covered the graves and so on so forth. Even if there's an inconsistency, "Flandre" is likely what ZUN was going for anyways.
Every Japanese know about Flanders because of this 19th century book: A Dog of Flanders. It's one of those common knowledge things in Japan.

Quote
If Kaguya were just a Lunarian then it also seems weird that she just randomly holds power over eternity.
There isn't one part about the IN / Ephemeral Moon story that isn't odd. The Tale of Bamboo Cutter is weird to begin with.
Kaguya isn't a random Lunarian. She was a princess with the highest social status, meaning she's very likely a daughter of Tsukuyomi.
Whether the retcon is for the good... Touhou is still developing. We shall wait and see.

Quote
The SDM library is called Voile in the stage 4's music title, and then it was expanded upon in Afterword Shanghai Alice Correspondence where ZUN mentions that the name holds no real meaning. Whether or not the name was corrected in the fairies manga doesn't change that, but it does make it an odd thing to correct.
The library is always called "Great Library of SDM" in the fighting games for a reason.
To clarify: the appendix to the EaLND tankoubon is not part of the manga, and most of which don't seem like they were written by ZUN. The first part is an introduction to the characters. It says Patchouli "manages the Voile Library". So after the correction it should be "[Patchouli] manages the library inside SDM." Strangely, it also says Patchouli is on good terms with Marisa.


I'm reminded to take a few more looks into the matter. BAiJR contains very short character profiles. It doesn't say much in Kaguya's profile, and says "the Hourai elixir left behind by Kaguya" in Mokou's profile. More ambiguity.

The EaLND appendix however says Kaguya drunk the elixir. EaLND tankoubon was published in 2007.1, while Ephemeral Moon was first announced in 2007.5.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 01:43:45 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Firestorm29

  • Lily White Mage
  • Spring Time is Healing Time~
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 04:05:42 AM »
That Flandre/Flandle thing kinda reminds me of the Clashman/Crashman problem in Megaman 2, the l and r sound very similar in Japanese that they are interchanged sometimes, and both spellings have shown up in different games that Crashman has sown up in.

I'd recommend to just go with what's the most meaningful rather than just stating that X person used l or r, therefore they explicitly intended that spelling.

OkashiiKisei

  • Still working on the Grimoire
  • It's all about devotion
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 02:58:51 PM »

IN
1. Houraisan Kaguya profileThe IN profile doesn't say Kaguya drunk the elixir. Also, her motivation was curiosity.Only a few years, and Kaguya's crime was considered cleared. Apparently exile on earth for a few years is equal to capital punishment. When Eirin recounted the past in CiLR, "Kaguya's crime had been atoned for" was no longer mentioned.

What's actually happening, is ZUN made a few very stealthy retcons when writing Silent Sinner in Blue / Cage in Lunatic Runagate.

IN:
Kaguya's power over eternity makes her naturally immortal. The Hourai elixir is made using a fraction of her power (ghost team ending). It's also not mentioned anywhere that those who drunk the elixir is considered tainted. Only Mokou and Eirin drunk the elixir.

SSiB / CiLR:
Kaguya drunk the elixir, and is thus considered forever tainted. Kaguya and Mokou are both immortals created by the elixir. Chang'e is introduced, and the moon rabbits have been working for 3000 years as a replacement of her punishment.

(Full post is here.)


Soooo... did Eirin still drink the elixir or what? And if so, when/where was this mentioned?

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 03:40:43 PM »
Soooo... did Eirin still drink the elixir or what? And if so, when/where was this mentioned?

Yes, she drank it. Discussion on this starts here.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

OkashiiKisei

  • Still working on the Grimoire
  • It's all about devotion
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 11:45:33 PM »
Yes, she drank it. Discussion on this starts here.

Now all my Touhou knowledge has become a lie!!  :qq:

* OkashiiKisei laments

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 05:03:24 AM »
Now all my Touhou knowledge has become a lie!!  :qq:
To be fair. this is never brought up outside of the IN ghost team ending.

Another interpretation is this: if Eirin truly is Omoikane the god of knowledge and thought, for a goddess of this level, drinking the elixir probably means nothing.

If it has no effects, Eirin might just be taking a sip to taste the medicine she made.

Whether it has any effects or not, Eirin would be using a partial truth to conceal an even greater truth, so she didn't have to tell Yuyuko "your power is useless on a goddess like me".

By the way, do you remember the scene in SSiB where Reisen II called Eirin using a censored name "Yagokoro XX"? It's easy to think this means her true name is unpronounceable (the wiki currently says so), because the only other censored name in Touhou is the name Lunarians call Chang'e, appearing in the same dialogue,

Instead, it's probably just a really blatant and clumsy hint that Eirin's true name is "Yagokoro-omoikane".
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 06:19:14 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

OkashiiKisei

  • Still working on the Grimoire
  • It's all about devotion
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 03:26:30 PM »
Haven't heard of that deity or theory before. Sounds interesting though, and might explain how Eirin got into the Netherworld despite supposedly drinking the elixir.

Either that or she only took two sips, granting her eternal youth and immunity to disease (and perhaps poison), but not absolute immortality (for which you need three sips). That would make her mortal enough to still enter the Netherworld.

Though, Lunarians already can't die from age, but the second perk is still neat to have.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 05:25:19 PM »
I'm really not getting what the solid evidence for Eirin being a deity is. It sounds a lot like filling in the blanks with what you want the blanks to have. But I'm curious to have some clearer proof, and welcome it.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

PapillonReel

  • Liquid Snake
  • I'm actually pretty patient.
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 08:52:19 PM »
I'm really not getting what the solid evidence for Eirin being a deity is. It sounds a lot like filling in the blanks with what you want the blanks to have. But I'm curious to have some clearer proof, and welcome it.

This interview here has ZUN mentioning something along those lines. Specifically:

Quote
My thought is that the Lunar Capital is where the highest, noblest gods live - that sort of setting. On the other hand, Gensokyo is where the more friendly, indigenous gods live. I figured that there are factions even among gods. Eirin is one of them, which is why she isn't interacting with the other humans after she moved to Gensokyo.

The phrasing used is a bit ambiguous since he doesn't clarify what "them" means so I don't want to exactly call it proof (that, and translation's a tricky thing; I don't know how it's worded in the original text, and that question's following a discussion on Lunarians in general). However, mentioning Eirin off-handedly in a question raided about Gods strikes me as ZUN's way of hinting at it in a roundabout way, like he did with the whole Maribel/Yukari thing. The fact that she's the brain of the moon and Omoikane is the God of wisdom and knowledge is another possible connection as well.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 09:04:49 PM by PapillonReel »

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 09:12:05 PM »
He could've also just as easily meant "those who live in the Lunar Capital", but I can see the inference anyway.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Drake

  • *
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 09:36:19 PM »
Now we're playing the circular logic game again. Some of this was already done in the Misc Questions thread and it's sort of bled out.

Sounds interesting though, and might explain how Eirin got into the Netherworld despite supposedly drinking the elixir.
As covered in the Misc Questions thread, the notion that immortals can't enter the Netherworld traces to a mistranslated (and possibly misconstrued) quote from Mokou. There isn't really anything pointing to Hourai immortals not being able to step foot into the Netherworld. It doesn't make much sense to begin with.

Though, Lunarians already can't die from age, but the second perk is still neat to have.
Lunarians don't die from age because the Moon is a "pure" place; on Earth their lifespans are still finite assuming they aren't already immortal by whatever circumstance.

Either that or she only took two sips, granting her eternal youth and immunity to disease (and perhaps poison), but not absolute immortality (for which you need three sips). That would make her mortal enough to still enter the Netherworld.
This is an interesting proposition though; the whole "sips" thing has been explicitly mentioned before, but nobody has really been implied to have only sipped it. It's still just speculation though, and considering all the mystery and ambiguity behind IN's characters, trying to pin down any "truths" is probably futile.

I'm really not getting what the solid evidence for Eirin being a deity is. It sounds a lot like filling in the blanks with what you want the blanks to have. But I'm curious to have some clearer proof, and welcome it.
It pretty much is just filling in the blanks, but it's Eirin's whole imagery, character and attachment to the Shinto stories that allude to her being Omoikane. Again, it's still all speculation.

I'm also going to press that the translation on the interview is unclear because the phrasing itself is unclear. I don't think it could be something ZUN intentionally shuffled in, this was likely a verbal interview that was transcribed. Probably isn't a good idea to try and find hidden meaning in that sort of medium.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 09:50:54 PM »
Can always count on Drake to clear the cobwebs on stuff like this.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2012, 03:22:39 PM »
Hmm, I don't know which thread does this belong.

I've been told today that "our consensus was that Reimu has always known Yukari; any conflict with PCB can be explained by PCB being made when ZUN's world design was incomplete".

One important evidence seems to be CoLA, the "Light Transcending Purple" chapter where Reimu introduces Yukari to Rinnosuke. Reimu said she didn't want to see Yukari, but Yukari kept bugging her, except "紫はね、いつも冬は出て来なくなるのよ"/"Yukari never shows up in the winter", which only makes sense if she'd known Yukari for several years. This chapter happened in 2004 winter, which was only the first winter after PCB.

Oh my, sounds irrefutable. So PCB was already retconned in barely more than one year?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 03:42:15 PM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Drake

  • *
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2012, 10:18:22 PM »
(would normally go in the misc questions thread btw)
I dunno. That's a pretty confusing conflict if it were indeed correct, but considering Ran tells Reimu that Yukari hibernates in the winter in her Extra scenario and that Yukari actively bugs Reimu after PCB anyways, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have Reimu know (or at least deduce) that she sleeps during the winter and wouldn't show up for no reason.

In any case, it's going to take more than that one line to contradict the whole of PCB. It would be pretty ludicrous to not assume that:
- Reimu has the deductive ability to claim that Yukari sleeps all winter after Yukari's shikigami tells her so
while instead assuming:
- Reimu has actually always known Yukari
- ZUN's world design was incomplete during PCB (when his writing sort of implies that he's put a crapton of thought into it by that point)
- all (assumed) conflicts with PCB can be brushed aside because of that
One answer doesn't take much rationalizing and assumption at all, the other creates a field of assumptions. I think an appeal to Occam's razor in this case holds quite a bit of ground.

The only other thing I can think of that points to Reimu previously knowing Yukari would be the introduction of the Spell Card Rules, which Yukari almost definitely took part in (including the draft being written on the same paper as the youkai-pacifist contract). However, seeing as Yukari nor Reimu made Yukari's influence known she might as well have done it without Reimu knowing.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 10:20:36 PM by Drake »

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 04:00:44 AM »
Quote
The only other thing I can think of that points to Reimu previously knowing Yukari would be the introduction of the Spell Card Rules, which Yukari almost definitely took part in (including the draft being written on the same paper as the youkai-pacifist contract). However, seeing as Yukari nor Reimu made Yukari's influence known she might as well have done it without Reimu knowing.

Can't say I agree with that assertion. As the story line goes, Reimu does not know Yukari prior to PCB, at least nothing gives the impression she does.
The introduction to Spell Card Rules does not need to have anything to do with Yukari. There are two different contracts at work here, one is the Vampire contract, which it is fairly safe to say, Yukari had a hand in. And Spell Card Rules, which we do not know who has a hand in.

What we can safely assume is that Reimu had a hand in agreeing to the Spell Card Rules. Take this and the fact that Reimu does not know Yukari prior to PCB, I see no reason why Yukari would have anything to do with the Spell Card Rules.

Drake

  • *
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2012, 05:39:56 AM »
Sorry, yes, I am assuming that she was involved in the creation of the Spell Card Rules, since there isn't anything outright saying she did. Some powerful youkai beat the vampire (presumably Remilia) during the Vampire Incident, somebody got the vampire(s) to sign the pacifist contract, and some youkai wrote down the Spell Card Rule draft on youkai contract paper. They don't necessarily have to all be the same, but even shuffling in a mention of the youkai contract paper is enough to arouse suspicion. Yukari and Remilia are already acquainted by IaMP, Yukari's the one who always holds Gensokyo's and its inhabitants' wellbeing as top priority; in my opinion it very easily fits to have Yukari being instrumental in all of these things. Of course, that doesn't mean it's right.

I wasn't actually arguing for Reimu previously knowing Yukari, by the way. I was just speculating based on what's presented. The point was that I can't think of any other evidence that would point to Reimu knowing Yukari. However, Reimu not knowing Yukari doesn't mean that Yukari couldn't be involved in the Spell Card Rules. Her position by itself makes it very unlikely that she wasn't involved.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2012, 06:55:04 AM »
Oh, I'm sure things like the spell card rules draft and the IaMP dialogue are reasons to believe Reimu already knew Yukari, while the CoLA line was used as an evidence that adds weight to it.

Regarding the Touhou universe not being finalized in the PCB era, I was given small examples such as "Cirno is a youkai" (PCB profile, note that her ESoD profile doesn't literally say she's a fairy), "Yamabiko is a type of spirit" (source?) and Sakuya can turn back time (I vaguely remember seeing this in early canon, but where?).

Of course ZUN saying the PCB Prologue (record of 13th Hakurei) being "distorted history, repeatedly overwritten by others, extremely unreliable" is taken as a significant strike against PCB's rank in canon.

By the way, they have actually already come around, and tried to reinterpret PCB dialogue under the assumption "Reimu knew Yukari"  :)

As for me, the PCB dialogue being overridden is no big deal. I'm willing to accept it if only to make post-PCB canon such as spell card rules draft work better. I do think the PCB dialogue can't be interpreted as anything other than "Reimu didn't know Yukari" though.

(Yes, I know fairies can be considered a type of youkai, but this doesn't seem to be the intention of Cirno's PCB profile. It's just a minor detail, no need to dwell on that.)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:28:02 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Firestorm29

  • Lily White Mage
  • Spring Time is Healing Time~
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2012, 11:23:26 AM »
I've kinda taken it as more of Yukari being introduced into the series, so perhaps the script was written in such a way to act more like a first impression? Kinda like how Sakuya was "assassinated" in stage 6 of ESoD.

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 11:54:23 AM »
Updated 3 PMiSS entries.

1. Why youkai can't defeat the Hakurei is more ambiguous in the original text.

2. I don't really know, but lots of people seem to have forgotten about the first border, Border of the Unreal and the Real? For example. it's only somewhat implied in the wiki's current Great Hakurei Barrier entry by saying the Barrier is "the strongest barrier in Gensokyo". I hope that entry doesn't come off as too condescending.

3. The third reason for SC rules.

UPDATE 2:
Added explanation for bombs in Touhou games.

UPDATE 3:
Added Akyu's age problem.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 11:23:58 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2012, 03:21:22 AM »
Quote
I was given small examples such as "Cirno is a youkai"

That is a non-example you just provided. Cirno is a youkai. Youkai cover yousei and yuurei and many other things.

@Yukari and Reimu: I cannot think of any reason why Yukari would know Reimu. Which is why I believe Yukari is not involved in the spell card rules. There is nothing telling us or hinting to us that Yukari does know Reimu.
That line proposed in Curiousities of Lotus Asia is not an argument. Given what has been told to Reimu, it makes sense for Reimu to make that judgement. Which by the way, is false. Since Yukari was around during that portion of the story.

The thing is, for Yukari to be involved in Spell Card Rules, she needs to know Reimu, because Reimu is the one that agreed to this. So, whoever was discussing it with Reimu would have met her. There are 2 canon characters that know Reimu prior to their introduction. One is Yuuka and the other is Alice. Both of these could have possibly be in this discussion with Reimu.

Quote
By the way, they have actually already come around, and tried to reinterpret PCB dialogue under the assumption "Reimu knew Yukari"

An assumption you should not be making. Yuuka and Alice both know Reimu prior to meeting her. We know this because the dialogue in the game says so. There is no such special introduction for Yukari.

Quote
As for me, the PCB dialogue being overridden is no big deal. I'm willing to accept it if only to make post-PCB canon such as spell card rules draft work better. I do think the PCB dialogue can't be interpreted as anything other than "Reimu didn't know Yukari" though.
Which I find is a dangerous assumption. There is no reason to make such interpretation when other better interpretations exist.

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 11:23:08 AM »
UPDATE:
1. The door to Netherworld. Seriously, I've seen people asking about it a few times.
2. Tengu newspaper.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 11:27:03 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2012, 12:20:00 PM »
The thing is, for Yukari to be involved in Spell Card Rules, she needs to know Reimu, because Reimu is the one that agreed to this. So, whoever was discussing it with Reimu would have met her. There are 2 canon characters that know Reimu prior to their introduction. One is Yuuka and the other is Alice. Both of these could have possibly be in this discussion with Reimu.

An assumption you should not be making. Yuuka and Alice both know Reimu prior to meeting her. We know this because the dialogue in the game says so. There is no such special introduction for Yukari.
Which I find is a dangerous assumption. There is no reason to make such interpretation when other better interpretations exist.

Not really: she could have easily delegated negotions to someone else, or even just left a note on the table while Reimu was sleeping.
As for the whole knowing Yuuka and Alice thing: PC-98 is seperate canon, so it's uncertain if they met before the spellcard system was proposed, or who else Reimu knew before EoSD.
We have couple of lines in PCB by Alice that would be written off as a throwback to PC-98 if the Touhou fandom didn't take such joy in overanalysis, to which Reimu inferred she had no idea who Alice was, which seems odd if they had such an important discussion, so she can probably be ruled out.
IIRC in PoFV Reimu pretty clearly indicated she already knew Yuuka (or at least that she had a flower thing going on), but made no indication of whether they met before or after the spellcard rules were proposed. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but I find it really difficult to imagine Yuuka see the vampire incident, decide to implement a system that restricts youkai combat into sport where humans can fight on par, and decide to go to Reimu of all people to say "Sup Rei, take a look at this shizzouse: these here spellcards be trippin'. Whelp imma go back to gardening, have a goodun", and leave it up to her. Generic berserker!Yuuka would probably be against them in the first place, PoFV!Yuuka would probably be too laid back to bother, and take it to the youkai rather than the shrine maiden if she did.

I personally like to think twas Yukari that wrote the draft and had it sent to Reimu one way or another, considering she was involved with the incident that led to it and it entierly fits with my idea of her character.
Got motive, means, precedent; no personality clashes or such, and Yukari is apparently pretty involved with the Hakurei. If I'm allowed to take a leap of logic too, I'd say that since it's pretty unlikely Yukari never met Reimu's predecessor, she could've just sent a letter using that relation to get Reimu to play ball. We know she does things like slip donations to the shrine under the latter's nose, so a little anonymous suggestion seems pretty reasonable.

(As an aside, there's also Yukari's page, which states "Reimu first met Yukari when she asked her to repair the border between the Netherworld and Gensokyo in Perfect Cherry Blossom. However, Yukari indicated she is already familiar with Reimu to an unspecified extent", though admittedly I'd take that with a grain of salt.)

TL;DR: Yukari seems to have at least as much supporting her as Yuuka, but since ZUN meant for it to be open, trying to insist it isn't X character is an exercise in futility.

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2012, 01:51:21 PM »
My own interpretation of PCB's dialogue is that Yukari knew Reimu, but Reimu did not know Yukari.  Yukari instantly recognizes her as "that shrine maiden" whereas Reimu asks "Who are you?" or something like that, showing that Yukari is familiar with Reimu but not the other way around.

My own speculation then is thus that Yukari's been observing Reimu in secret up to that point (at the very least). It's hard to imagine someone in Yukari's position not caring about/watching over the Hakurei Shrine Maiden to at least some extent, after all.

Going by that, I also believe that Yukari is the writer of the original draft of spell card rules written on a youkai contract (due to all the thematic emphasis of her and contracts in PMiSS, as well as her position/role as general overseer of Gensokyo) and that she simply slipped the paper to Reimu anonymously. It's not like it'd be something hard for her to do.  Hell, we already have canon confirmation that she slips Reimu donations anonymously, so slipping Reimu a draft of the spell card rules anonymously wouldn't be very hard or out of place for her, either.

As for CoLA, I imagine (but can't say with certainty) that either falls under "You're reading too much into one line" or "ZUN simply didn't think so much about that one line".

As for Yuuka and the evidence that she wrote the spell card rules... I still think Yukari was Yuuka's replacement for whatever reason (my current belief leaning towards "ZUN prefers/decided on blondes", hilariously enough). There's just waaaaay too many parallels between the two. I believe all the evidence of Yuuka being the one who wrote the spell card rules in PMiSS is ZUN's personal private inside-joke/reference/remnant/nostalgia to that. Although obviously such a thing can't even begin to be proven.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 01:58:34 PM by Tiamat »

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2012, 02:54:52 PM »
Reimu not knowing Yukari doesn't have to affect things like the rules draft.

It's very difficult for a person to leave an impression on Reimu's mind, if that person doesn't befriend her the way her defeated enemies tend to. Other than PCB dialogue with Alice, recent manga have given us two examples. In the final chapter of Oriental Sacred Place, the three fairies had been hanging out around the shrine for a long time, but Reimu didn't recognize them. Seiga took an interest in Reimu, and kept bugging her for some time (TD parallel ending), nonetheless Reimu had completely forgotten about her.

Normally, a strong and perceptive youkai or youkai hunter would sense the great power in Yukari. But that's part of what's special about Reimu: she doesn't differentiate between the strong and the weak.

Given the way Reimu's mind works, it's quite plausible for Yukari to occasionally visit Reimu and influence her in some subtle way for some time, without Reimu remembering her.

However, I must say the PCB dialogue doesn't seem to be written with this intention in mind.
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Drake

  • *
Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2012, 09:14:07 PM »
I'd also like to mention again that the draft being shown, yet explicitly being attributed as anonymous/unknown, is essentially a literary ploy that implies the exact opposite: that whoever suggested this draft is likely among the already-known characters, or was soon to be revealed. Having this fundamental piece of Gensokyo's history with absolutely no plan behind it is frankly impossible. The draft is not done by Reimu, and more notably, Reimu does not attribute the draft to anyone, nor is any third party mentioned at all, ever again. Mentioning that the draft was done on a youkai contract, rather than using some other device to show that it was a youkai who thought of it, is probably a throwback to earlier in the book, with the Vampire incident. The vampire was defeated by powerful youkai, and a contract was made to prohibit their actions. These contracts are only mentioned in these two cases, and are very likely connected.

In fact, it almost seems too perfect to Yukari's character. I could easily see Yukari introducing the more one-sided contract on purpose in order to get other youkai to urge a more universal solution rather than have it only affect the vampires. If the Vampire incident never occurred, there might never have been an agreement to introduce such rules.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2012, 04:59:50 AM »
Quote
(due to all the thematic emphasis of her and contracts in PMiSS, as well as her position/role as general overseer of Gensokyo)

I disagree with the thematic emphasis, I don't see how beauty and elegance is Yukari's theme. The draft of Spell Card Rules thematic emphasis is more of what Yuuka would draft over Yukari. PoFV Yuuka emphasizes beauty and elegance, which is what the spell card rules emphasize. Also, whatever rules Yuuka uses when she fights in her PMiSS article seems to be what the Spell Card Rules are.
Yukari does not emphasize such things. Her style is more chaotic, as we see in the fighting games.

@Alice knowing Reimu: Yes, which is why I mentioned PCB's dialogue. Reimu not knowing Alice just means they do not meet often enough for Reimu to remember her. It isn't like Reimu is good at remembering names, but after meeting a few times, Reimu does remember people.

Quote
In the final chapter of Oriental Sacred Place, the three fairies had been hanging out around the shrine for a long time, but Reimu didn't recognize them.

That isn't too suprising, considering that Reimu does not actually meet the three fairies that often. They always run from Reimu and maybe once or twice do the fairies actually meet Reimu. Even then, it was only a brief meeting.

@Spell Card Rules: The way I view it. It is not the anonymity that is making me think the person should know Reimu. It is this dialogue:

PMiSS: Some of the more willful youkai found these terms distasteful and entered into discussions with the Hakurei shrine maiden.
The result of this were the spell card rules, which allowed duelists to seemingly stake their lives in individual combat (*4).


This seems to indicate that whoever the youkai are, are in an active discussion with the Reimu and not just something that gets signed off by Reimu.
Because of this, while it is not necessary that the said youkai are the ones we know, it at least gives strong evidence to whoever it was to at least know Reimu prior to the Spell Card Rules.
The only two people we know that know Reimu prior to their introductions are Yuuka and Alice.

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2012, 09:27:39 AM »
@Alice knowing Reimu: Yes, which is why I mentioned PCB's dialogue. Reimu not knowing Alice just means they do not meet often enough for Reimu to remember her. It isn't like Reimu is good at remembering names, but after meeting a few times, Reimu does remember people.

...

The only two people we know that know Reimu prior to their introductions are Yuuka and Alice.

The same logic from the first section of the quote can be used to counter the second, unless you meant "the only two people that we know knew Reimu before their introductions are Yuuka and Alice".
In any case, PCB and PoFV don't support that they knew each other at the time the discussions were being held, only that (if we ignore that it was probably meant as a tongue-in-cheek reference) Alice knows Reimu since before PCB and that Reimu knows Yuuka has a flower motif going on by the events of PoFV.

As for the whole "beauty and elegance" thing, you have her manner of dress, speech and poise, for one.
And her spellcards. Shizzlick be mad elegant, yo. Purdy, too.
Meanwhile, PMiSS's Yuuka article makes it pretty clear Yuuka's preference is to steamroll people, which doesn't seem particularly elegant to me.
I agree that "whatever rules Yuuka uses when she fights in her PMiSS article seems to be what the Spell Card Rules are", but I don't think that's particularly strong evidence to support the argument. Consider that Yuuka is the first powerhouse PMiSS covers, and that bringing it up again later when there's a full article for it would be redundant.

From what I can tell, your side seems to be that it was Yuuka because:
  • Reimu probably knew her at the time
  • PoFV Yuuka is elegant, elegance is mentioned in the spellcard draft
  • Her PMiSS article mentions how youkai decided on the spellcard rules

Sure, it's reason enough that it's not a crack idea (like, say, Nitori or Rumia would be), but then neither is the idea that it was Yukari, especially if you take literary devices into account.