Author Topic: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings  (Read 22653 times)

cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2012, 01:44:57 PM »
Another translation post under construction, will return when I get confirmation from people who knew Japanese better.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 02:07:02 PM by cuc »
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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2012, 03:32:48 PM »
I disagree with the thematic emphasis, I don't see how beauty and elegance is Yukari's theme. The draft of Spell Card Rules thematic emphasis is more of what Yuuka would draft over Yukari. PoFV Yuuka emphasizes beauty and elegance, which is what the spell card rules emphasize. Also, whatever rules Yuuka uses when she fights in her PMiSS article seems to be what the Spell Card Rules are.
Yukari does not emphasize such things. Her style is more chaotic, as we see in the fighting games.

Er... I said thematic emphasis on CONTRACTS, not on beauty.  Obviously Yuuka's the one with the beauty emphasis in PMiSS.

However, I disagree on Yukari not emphasizing beauty.  Here are some examples (although I'll admit that mistranslations are possible).

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Scarlet_Weather_Rhapsody/Story/Yukari%27s_Scenario

Yukari: "You shall leave the earth beautifully yet cruelly!"

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_26

Yukari's name: "The contents are very simple: 'In the land of Izumo, covered by beautiful, heavy clouds, I've built a great fenced mansion to let my wife, Princess Kushinada, live a peaceful life in seclusion.'"

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Fifth_Chapter

?Correct, well done. The moon was covered with a very beautiful sea and the youkai knew instantaneously that the way back would be to go through the planet that was reflected on its surface.? 

She's also glad that she was able to see the cherry blossoms twice in another chapter of CoLA, showing another time she's appreciated beauty.

And from Seasonal Dream Vision, she acknowledges the beauty of cherry blossoms (that's she's canonically been stated to go to viewings of)

"It's certainly unusual for you to come this far to Muenzuka. The cherry blossoms at the shrine are much more beautiful and brilliant than the ones here, you know."

She gets distracted by such things, too.

"Blast. I was careless. Maybe I was distracted by the sinful violet spectacle of the cherry blossoms."

Also, her story in Seasonal Dream Vision, where Yuyuko in the ending states that the flower represents Yukari (""I've been thinking this for a while, but I think the violet cherry blossoms seem like they're your flower. I wonder what that says about the sinfulness of your character, Yukari?"), is called "A BEAUTIFUL Flower Blooming Violet Every Sixty Years"

Also, as stated in PMiSS, "She prefers extravagant clothes."

It seems darn clear to me that beauty is emphasized at least a pretty good amount when it comes to Yukari, thematically.  Even in-story, it's VERY clear that Yukari herself enjoys beautiful things. Certainly this aspect of her character is downplayed compared to Yuuka, but her love of beautiful things is shown or inferred to more than enough (more so than any other character besides Yuuka, really) for her to have conceivably been the author of the spell card rules, in my opinion.

...as an aside, I still see that as another one of the many parallels that leaves open the possibility Yukari was intended to be Yuuka's replacement before ZUN ended up bringing Yuuka back anyways (with a completely new theme). Also as an aside, I generally personally ignore the question of "Did Yuuka write the spell card rules instead of Yukari?" due to this cause it's honestly hard for me to view this current flower youkai Yuuka as anything more than ZUN nostalgically bringing the original version of character back for a brief cameo at the moment (with a new theme to differentiate her from the new version of her), due to Yuuka not showing up or being referenced in... well, ANYTHING besides PoFV or PMiSS (not even anything more than a cameo in any of the print works, IIRC, and even those were rare and more minor than the cameos most characters got). Therefore I'm personally inclined to view any such inquiries of Yuuka writing the spell card rules with a "Well, Yuuka was intended to have Yukari's role before Yukari replaced her anyways so it doesn't matter" personal reaction in my mind, though I don't expect such a statement to actually convince anyone of anything.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 03:46:24 PM by Tiamat »

cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2012, 08:15:28 PM »
I'm still waiting for a good answer, but this is as far as I can get now.

PMiSS, Reimu's entry, "Vampire Incident" section:
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Originally, the raison d'etre of youkai lies in attacking humans. Since the Great Barrier was established, the youkai could no longer simply attack humans, what's more, they began to depend on [youkai who's responsible for food] to provide their food. As a result, the youkai's willpower began to decline.
Other than being forbidden from attacking villagers, specialization (so most youkai don't have to find food by themselves) is another cause for youkai's lack of exercise.

Quote
Some youkai still had willpower left. They found the situation unsavory/not good/not fun, and discussed it with the Hakurei shrine maiden. The shrine maiden agreed with their opinion that daily life without large incidents would make youkai lazy, and a few battles are absolutely necessary.
"The shrine maiden also dislikes life without incident" is a mistranslation.

There were more than one youkai who still had willpower left. This passage comes after the vampire incident ending in a treaty, I initially presume that's saying some youkai weren't completely exhausted after the great vampire battle.

Then I realized there's a far better explanation, and the logic of the entire "Vampire Incident" section becomes clear. it's calling back to the "willpower decline" passage above, saying there are youkai who still hadn't completely lose all their willpower in time of peace. This suggests that the vampire incident gave them the best fight they had in a long time, and rekindled their desire for fighting. Of course they would be disappointed when the war ended in a peace treaty and new prohibitions. So they came to talk with Reimu, saying the youkai needs to fight more.

EDIT:
"The shrine maiden also dislikes life without incident" is probably not a mistranslation. Then the sentence would be:
Quote
The shrine maiden also found daily life without large Incidents extremely boring, and agreed with their opinion that a few battles are absolutely necessary.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:15:28 AM by cuc »
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Drake

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2012, 08:54:06 PM »
If the youkai don't do anything to reaffirm the fear and belief in them, they disappear. I've touched on this a few times throughout the "discuss canon" threads. That's how youkai come into fruition and logically it's also what sustains them in both the outside world and Gensokyo.

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cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2012, 09:44:55 PM »
Hey, I've said that in this forum myself! I think it takes "willpower to fight" to attack humans, and "willpower to fight" is (was?) an important virtue for the youkai, but willpower in itself doesn't maintain youkai's existence.


Further discussion and speculation:

1. My previous view was that there had always been as much fighting as we now have within Hakurei Barrier. Now I had to question this view. These passages imply that the time between Barrier Incident (a youkai civil war in which some youkai strongly opposed the creation of Hakurei Barrier) and Vampire Incident was a time of comparative peace. There might be the occasional Incident, but on average, since the youkai could no longer attack humans at will, fighting occured far less than in the pre-modern world. I'm not sure whether the banishment of underground exiles happened during this time.

2. Hatate is a typical new generation youth, used to living in peace. I think that's the real change caused by peace: the youkai society became further developed, in a way that's comparable to humans' Agricultural Revolution. Each youkai no longer has to go scaring humans by herself. and can devote her life to other pursues such as science or entertainment. This created relatively "civilized" youkai who have no "willpower" and take it easy. If you are a grumpy old youkai, or an admirer of the ever-changing outside world like Rinnosuke, certainly you can call it a horrible deterioration of youkai spirits. The fact youkai now have lives, identity and culture outside of scaring humans, and the protection of Gensokyo's borders, combined to make them capable of evolution independent of human imagination (SoPM, Kanako's speech). From a metafictional perspective, this ties in with the youkai's transformation from classical monsters to quirky girls (WaHH Ch. 9, Reimu's speech).

3. The spell card rules allow youkai to fight as much as they want again, so that Gensokyo now enjoys both the benefits of peace and fighting, ushering in a new golden age for Gensokyo. In a metafictional sense, this completes the fictional setting where quirky girls fight a lot.

4. We all know the essence of youkai is humanity's fear of the unknown. Are Kanako and Reimu suggesting that the very concept of youkai is changing into something else? ZUN is very careful about maintaining some of the mystique of the supernatural, even across the fourth wall (which causes people to endlessly wonder how dark the Touhou universe really is), so his youkai haven't completely stopped being manifestations of the unknown.


I hope this gets the point across; I kind of lost my steam in the middle.

On another note, I prefer the SC rules to be not sui generis, but rather a formalization of a convention already in use, just like a lot of rules in real life. It's a good thing that my idea can still fit in.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 04:46:45 AM by cuc »
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cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2012, 02:20:50 AM »
Seems "the shrine maiden also dislikes life without incident" is probably not a mistranslation after all. Then the sentence would be:
Quote
The shrine maiden also found daily life without large Incidents extremely boring, and agreed with their opinion that a few battles are absolutely necessary.

How Reimu feels about life without incidents, that makes for a great difference.

It's possible that the fightings, whether between youkai and humans or youkai and youkai, were greatly reduced after the Barrier Incident (pretty much confirmed), almost eliminated after the Vampire Incident (implied), and greatly increased after the spell card rules (implied).
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Drake

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2012, 03:10:38 AM »
Even if it was a mistranslation, I don't think the meaning and interpretation changed much at all. Reimu dislikes boring things, and saying "she dislikes life without incident" is just a way of saying "having a boring life is boring". That's sort of what I like about Reimu's character too; despite how often she says she doesn't want to have to go do work and would just like a normal life, that's completely the opposite of her actual feelings and she's obviously happiest whenever she's busy and when things are actually boring, she's miserable.

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2012, 04:34:14 AM »
Yea, Reimu actually gets mad in Wild and Horned Hermit about the lack of youkai activity lately (she says it's because she can't do her duty without it, but...)

There's also that time she's clearly bored in SSiB, and it becomes a running gag when she thinks a new incident has sprung up only for it to be just someone visiting the shrine for no particularly interesting reason ("Oh. It's you.")

Drake

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2012, 04:59:09 AM »

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cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 07:36:01 AM »
I only just realized the parallels between my theory above and Monster Inc.

Now to further examine the part about youkai changing:
(Don't forget there are other parts to my theory!)

Before Hakurei Barrier:
- Youkai was nothing but manifestation of human fear.
- Youkai's existence depends on human fear.
- Youkai is all about scaring humans, not much life and personality beyond that.

After Hakurei Barrier:
- Youkai have their own lives and personalities.
- Youkai have been somewhat decoupled from human fear, and can exist on their own to a certain degree.
- Youkai's images can now evolve on their own.

These are different facets of the same thing.

Metafictionally, this reminds me that, we modern people no longer perceives myths and legends as direct descriptions of the Real, but are still willing to turn them into stories, and take our characters from them, giving them new characterizations.

The youkai have disappeared from the domain of "what we believe to be real", yet live on in the domain of "what we don't believe to be real, yet important to us" - the domain of fiction.

In this light, the Hakurei Barrier is indeed a boundary between fiction and non-fiction.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:08:02 AM by cuc »
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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2012, 06:56:59 AM »
Quote
The same logic from the first section of the quote can be used to counter the second, unless you meant "the only two people that we know knew Reimu before their introductions are Yuuka and Alice".

What I mean is that while Reimu is not good at remembering names, but she does remember them, if she meets them more often. If we take a look at Mystic Square, Reimu only briefly met Alice and Alice looked different back then. So whether we use Mystic Square or not, the real point is that Alice recognizes Reimu. It could be that they fought back then, but considering that it was one fight, Reimu would not recognize Alice.
So, what I am saying is that Alice and Yuuka are the two people that Reimu is likely to know, however, as you have also mentioned, the description of Reimu's profile on Spell Card Rules, it seems like Alice is unlikely present, since Reimu would have known Alice if Alice did participate in discussions with her.

Which leads to why I don't believe Yukari is involved in the spell card rules. Whichever youkai who were discussing with Reimu would be the ones involved and the only one we know for a sure that Reimu recognizes prior to her introduction is Yuuka.

I don't quite agree that Yukari focuses on that much beauty. We can't quite use spell cards as an example of it being beautiful, since the idea behind a spell card is elegance and beauty. Which would mean that most spell cards are meant to be beautiful. What we should use is their theme and personality. PoFV's Yuuka emphasizes beauty and elegance, which is mentioned in the spell card rules. Yukari's theme and personality does not emphasize beauty, it emphasizes chaos.

The key points are really the 4 concepts listed on the spell card rules:
That youkai can easily cause disasters.
That humans can easily resolve disasters.
That use of one's full abilities is to be denied.
That there are no things superior to beauty and thought.


Concept three is most likely for the protection of the weaker participants.

Really, the main issue I have with Yukari being involved in spell card rules is that Reimu does not appear to know Yukari. Which should not be the case if Yukari were involved in the spell card rules, since there were discussions with the Hakurei Shrine maiden on this topic. So, my belief is either random youkai we have not met who Reimu recognizes or Yuuka.

@Yukari and appreciation of beauty: Yes, she appreciates beauty, like many other people, but that is not her thematically speaking. If it was Yuyuko, then yes, I can see it, because Yuyuko's theme also has beauty in it. Same deal with Kaguya, not so for Eirin, Remilia or Flandre.

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2012, 07:07:31 AM »
Maybe the "beauty" that the Spell Card Rules refer to is each one's personal interpretation of the concept or to simply show off their creativity or to express their true selves, the essence of who and what they are and what makes them tick.

*shrugs*

Drake

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2012, 08:10:19 AM »
Quote
Really, the main issue I have with Yukari being involved in spell card rules is that Reimu does not appear to know Yukari. Which should not be the case if Yukari were involved in the spell card rules, since there were discussions with the Hakurei Shrine maiden on this topic.
It's the youkai that didn't like the restriction contract that decided to discuss the matter further. It's never said that these are the same youkai that actually suggested the rules or gave Reimu the draft; the only evidence of that process is indeed the draft, which is completely unattributed to anyone. And as we've mentioned, Yukari could have easily shuffled the draft to Reimu anonymously without her noticing anyways. Especially so if the previous theory of her masterminding the restricting contract in order to introduce balanced rules lines up. If you want to stretch lack of information, it's even possible Ran gave the draft to Reimu in Yukari's stead and Reimu doesn't have to know either of them that way. Lastly, if there actually were many youkai discussing the rules with Reimu, then why would she necessarily have to remember one of them in particular, or any of them at all, really?

Besides, as mentioned, wouldn't it make sense to have taken note of who gave her the draft or who suggested the rules if it were a character that actually discussed it with her? Akyuu makes a pretty clear "lol who did it" move on top of that, so it seems really weird to think it's Yuuka and then have no other passages besides the concept of formal battling and gracefulness, which it does attribute to all older wise youkai. She's almost never shown in the series after PoFV and she doesn't really do much of anything. The formal battling fits, but her personality and style is quite the opposite of what's described in the rules. Yuuka isn't interested in "incidents", she never goes easy, likes to use physical attacks while neglecting her own magic and ability, and is only interested in powerful opponents rather than evening the field between all fighters. The spell card rules explicitly attempt to balance incidents between all humans and youkai, suppress your full power, express yourself meaningfully, can't repeatedly use physical attacks, and you can't kill humans.

If you want to use "beauty" as theming of Yuuka, then I'm going to say "thought" and "meaningfulness", "order" and "balance" described in the rules are all common attributes of Yukari. Yukari is also fully aware of the possibility of youkai vanishing and/or Gensokyo collapsing if there is no conflict, which is the point of the first paragraph. Yukari winning out in a battle of planning and thought amongst which rules to use, when the other participants were also wise youkai, is just too perfect. Realize though, I can certainly humour the idea of Yuuka suggesting the Spell Card Rules; I did at some point think it could have been her as well, and there are some nice nudges in her direction. But in a discussion like this where we're trying to find the best possible fit when considering all the details we can think of, I'm going to stand my ground here.

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2012, 11:08:06 AM »
The key points are really the 4 concepts listed on the spell card rules:
That youkai can easily cause disasters.
That humans can easily resolve disasters.
That use of one's full abilities is to be denied.
That there are no things superior to beauty and thought.


Concept three is most likely for the protection of the weaker participants.

Really, the main issue I have with Yukari being involved in spell card rules is that Reimu does not appear to know Yukari. Which should not be the case if Yukari were involved in the spell card rules, since there were discussions with the Hakurei Shrine maiden on this topic. So, my belief is either random youkai we have not met who Reimu recognizes or Yuuka.

@Yukari and appreciation of beauty: Yes, she appreciates beauty, like many other people, but that is not her thematically speaking. If it was Yuyuko, then yes, I can see it, because Yuyuko's theme also has beauty in it. Same deal with Kaguya, not so for Eirin, Remilia or Flandre.

So, you reckon Yuuka has a thematic emphasis on the fourth concept, fair enough.
One could argue Yukari has thematic emphasis on the other three, though. She lectures Reimu on her duty regarding solving disasters, and her PMiSS article clearly points out that she restricts herself to around her opponent's level when fighting.
Meanwhile Yuuka, staying at her field most of the time, doesn't have much to do with incidents in general, and seems to prefer curbstomping to holding back.

...I was going to write more, but Drake's pretty much covered it already, so I'll settle for pointing out that since PC-98 canon is seperate from windows, so using Mystic square evidence on a windows discussion isn't worth much. For all we know, Alice met Reimu when she tagged along on one of Marisa's shrine visits or something.

cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2012, 12:12:51 PM »
"Use of full ability is denied" is an extremely liberal translation. A literal translation is:
Quote
Pure determination-by-strength is to be denied.
The point isn't about forbidding full power, but explicitly about leveling the playing field between the weak and the strong.
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Drake

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 09:14:15 PM »
I'm going to contest that; while I agree that 完全な実力主義 is roughly "entirely true-power-based principles", in the case of high-level youkai, it basically is the same as outright forbidding the use of full power. Perhaps it's a misnomer and isn't quite the point, but the previous arguments still apply to both Yuuka and Yukari. Yuuka still isn't interested in small fry and prefers beating the pulp out of the opponent, while Yukari tends to balance herself, simply to provide a fairer and more interesting fight.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:16:39 PM by Drake »

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2012, 03:34:37 AM »
According to Yuuka's profile, she fights under rules (not necessarily "restriction of power" if I recall correctly, but it's probably essentially the same thing depending on what the rules are) when dealing with other high power youkai. Which is where the spell card thematics come in regards to that (however, the current translation also makes it clear that ALL old youkai do this because to fight at full power against another old youkai would be stupid and lead to a never ending battle. I suppose it's debatle how much that reason applies to the spell card rules). Of course, holding back is also mentioned in Yukari's profile, albeit much more briefly (again why I think Yuuka is mostly an inside-reference to before ZUN switched her role with Yukari.... and again, I don't expect anyone else to believe that).

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2012, 05:46:27 AM »
Let me write down the supporting theories I know of for each character and add on my comments:

Yukari - Strong evidence suggests that she wrote the vampire contract.
She is involved in many of Gensokyo's activities, including but not limited to Lunar War, barrier of illusion and reality, creation of Hakurei barrier.
Therefore it can be safe to assume that she could possibly have suggested the Spell Card Rules.
Holding back is something mentioned in Yukari's profile, which is concept 3.

Con - Does not know Reimu prior to her introduction.
Does not have a beauty theme.

Yuuka - Her theme fits the Spell Card Rules. PoFV, which is her first Windows appearance suggests that she values beauty.
It can been seen in her motif and what she does.
Reimu knows her prior to her introduction.
Her profile suggests she fights with certain rule sets, which can possibly be what spell card rules become today.

Con - One of the spell card rules listed attacks of physical attacks are not to be repeated, this is not what Yuuka would like to propose.

@Spell Card Rules:
Yes, you are right that it never said those same youkai also suggested the rules. However, the implication is there.
It is hard to believe that those same youkai would not have inputted their idea on what kind of rules they would use to make life less boring.
It is only logical to believe that those same youkai who had a discussion with Reimu would also be the ones that created a draft of some kind.

As for the amount of youkai in discussion with Reimu, there are probably not a lot of them. Unless there is a translation error, it seems to imply that only the more willful youkai are in this discussion, so my assumption is small number.

These are the relevant texts from PMiSS with suggestions on creation of Spell Card Rules:
Quote
Some of the more willful youkai found these terms distasteful and entered into discussions with the Hakurei shrine maiden.
The shrine maiden, who was also tiring of an uneventful lifestyle, agreed to the youkai point of view that some battles were necessary.
The result of this were the spell card rules, which allowed duelists to seemingly stake their lives in individual combat (*4).
4: It appears various other rules were also considered, but as the beauty and volume of danmaku especially appealed to youkai and women, they aren't as popular.

On the Draft of the Spell Card Rules, PMiSS suggests that a youkai proposed it to Reimu. Since Akyuu wasn't actually there, she can only have theories on who actually proposed the draft.

Quote
She's almost never shown in the series after PoFV and she doesn't really do much of anything. The formal battling fits, but her personality and style is quite the opposite of what's described in the rules. Yuuka isn't interested in "incidents", she never goes easy, likes to use physical attacks while neglecting her own magic and ability, and is only interested in powerful opponents rather than evening the field between all fighters.

Wait, I am confused, I don't remember it ever saying that she never goes easy. I don't believe there is any indication of that matter.
Is there a passage somewhere that implies that this is the case?

She does like to use physical attacks and is interested in powerful opponents.

I was under the impression that the first 2 concepts were that youkai did not want to live a boring life style. The 3rd concept is precaution, because going all out has repercussions on Gensokyo.
I did not mention the first 3 concepts, because they would fit any youkai that would propose this. The 4th concept is the only one I mentioned, because that concept is more specific to some youkai.

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2012, 02:30:17 PM »
I actually got the exact opposite feeling regarding the youkai that talked with Reimu and the one that wrote the spell card rules, personally. The way I read it, Akyu bringing up the mystery of the youkai thematically implied that it was a mystery to EVERYONE, Reimu included, and the fact that Akyu brought it up at all showed that it must have been a different youkai from the ones that discussed things with Reimu (since Akyu didn't show any curiosity regarding those youkai that did).  Of course, there is nothing in-story to show/state that's the case, but it seemed to me an author would write it that way to make it one big "Who did it?" thing for all involved. That was my first instinct when I read it long ago as a Touhou newbie (even before I started piecing together all this Yukari stuff) and I still feel that way reading it today.

On a different note, the youkai (as in, youkais, but like "Ninjas", I'm not sure you're supposed to add an 's' to refer to the plural) that discussed things with Reimu was specifically plural according to the current translation ("some of the youkai").  Which IMHO to me would mean that the one who wrote the contract, assuming it's a singular youkai, would thus likely thematically be a different youkai. Although I guess you could also make the argument that maybe multiple youkai teamed up to write the spell card rules (which is a possibility. Not my own personal belief but it could be true. As a side tangent, the possibility of it as well as other things does make me wish for a moment in canon where Yuuka and Yukari interact with each other)

cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 04:31:01 PM »
Ahem, have you realized that what I posted was directly related to your discussion? I'll give you a summary of the relevant bits:

- After the Hakurei Barrier was established, youkai can't attack humans easily (forbidden from attacking villager?) and have their food provided by youkai food suppliers, so youkai's willpower was on decline.

- Some youkai still had willpower left. After the vampire incident, they found the situation distasteful / not fun / not good for Gensokyo's future, so they came to discuss it with Reimu.

I offered two interpretations of the "distasteful" bit:
1) The prohibitions and the peace treaty after the vampire incident was suffocating for those youkai;
2) The vampire incident gave them a chance to fight again, and they wanted to fight more.

So, it seems entirely reasonable some old youkai who had willpower (to fight) gave the rules to Reimu, as long as you trust Akyu here.

Regarding Yuuka, Eiki specially told her she didn't attack humans enough, which puts whether she belonged in this "still had willpower left" group in question.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 04:45:08 PM by cuc »
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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 06:48:03 PM »
I thought she just said that attacking humans was the good deed she could do?

Although Perfect Memento specifically states that Yuuka's pretty darn inactive these days, too ("She doesn't move from her flower fields very much these days" or something like that)

Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2012, 06:29:27 AM »
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Regarding Yuuka, Eiki specially told her she didn't attack humans enough, which puts whether she belonged in this "still had willpower left" group in question.

Is that what Eiki said? The dialogue I am seeing on the wiki does not seem to say that. Were there some changes to the translation?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Story/Yuuka%27s_Scenario#Yuuka_vs._Eiki_.28Episode_Final.29

@PMiSS article about Yuuka: Yeah, it does say that.

So, my question is, is she active during the creation of the Spell Card Rules? Or does PMiSS imply that she is inactive during that time as well?
The creation of spell card rules happen some time before EoSD, which is a while ago.

Oh, I have some more comments about the 4 concepts.
Concept 1 and 3 seems to be something the youkai proposed.
Concept 2, I believe Reimu added that, as I don't really see youkai adding concept 2.
Concept 4, I guess either one could have proposed that, but I believe the youkai also proposed this.

However, if you were to argue concept 2 is added by youkai, then Yukari or Alice would be one of the few youkai that it would make sense to add this concept. Though, I do believe Reimu added this, as it makes the most sense.

@cuc: I was not aware that what you mentioned was relevant to the spell card rules creation, so I did not mention it on my previous post.

@draft: I guess I read it differently that you. The way I read it, I was always under the impression that some youkai proposed this to Reimu and the reason why Akyuu does not know was because she wasn't there. I also got the who did it vibe from Akyuu. I think she is curious to know who could have written that.
In either case, if it was Yuuka that wrote that, it would still be a who did it vibe, since Akyuu wouldn't know. Same deal with if it was Yukari that wrote that.

Drake

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2012, 07:13:55 AM »
The last part about Akyuu needing to point out a whodunnit expands beyond Akyuu simply not knowing and turns into a literary device. In context, Akyuu would just go ask who composed the draft (or be written to already know, for the sake of information in the book), or make some guesses (beyond "a youkai"). That's how the whole book is written. Pointing it out without expanding at all is why there's a clear question posed that is meant to have an answer, rather than having the book simply ignoring the whole thing and leaving it to the imagination.

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cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2012, 01:00:56 PM »
Is that what Eiki said? The dialogue I am seeing on the wiki does not seem to say that. Were there some changes to the translation?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Story/Yuuka%27s_Scenario#Yuuka_vs._Eiki_.28Episode_Final.29

Why does this dialogue look so different from what I remembered? Guess I really should've double-checked and maybe third-checked using the actual game.
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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2012, 06:03:14 AM »
That was the dialogue I read when I looked into PoFV, which is why I am confused. However, it does not necessarily mean that is the correct dialogue, because translation errors exist.

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In context, Akyuu would just go ask who composed the draft (or be written to already know, for the sake of information in the book), or make some guesses (beyond "a youkai"). That's how the whole book is written. Pointing it out without expanding at all is why there's a clear question posed that is meant to have an answer, rather than having the book simply ignoring the whole thing and leaving it to the imagination.

I guess, if you read it that way. I thought it was meant for people to make guesses, kind of like how Akyuu makes a bunch of wild theories about Mokou, Sakuya, and several other characters' backgrounds. But I guess the way you are interpreting it is that since she is not pointing out theories, there is a clear answer, which I disagree.
We do have some sort of hint to who made the spell card rules, but it is vague. Pretty much, we have this under Colophon:
PMiSS:
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Spell Card Duels, written by The Society for Creating a New Gensokyo

cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2012, 06:59:47 AM »
A minor update. I finally started to play the PC-98 games. How can I forgot this...
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The term "Spirit Strike" actually is the name for bombs in all PC-98 games (including HRtP), except for PoDD, where each character's bombs have a different name, and only Reimu's bombs are called "Spirit Strikes". The bombs in PC-98 games look and function very differently from the Spirit Strikes of Windows canon.

It's still safe to presume that the English fandom convention of translating Spirit Strike into "bomb" originated from IaMP's interface. Of course, I'm unfamiliar with the history of the Western Touhou fandom, so I can't say for sure. Is there anyone here who participated in the translation of SWR, MoF, SA and UFO?


Some personal musings:

Actually seeing the PC-98 games running is an entire different experience from watching heavily compressed 30fps videos. There are even more special graphical effects than I thought. I've always seen them as comparable to programs written by the demoscene, squeezing graphical effects out of obsolete hardware, and coupling it with memorable music. The comparison now seems even more fitting. I wonder How many programmers were experimenting with similar tricks on old Japanese computers back then?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 05:09:46 PM by cuc »
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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2012, 03:23:31 AM »
I think it is more of a shooter game thing. If you play games like Raiden, 1942, and other games that let you shoot things as a plane. A lot of them have a "bomb" and a regular shot. The bomb sometimes provides short duration invincibility and also usually clears the screen of bullets and enemy units.

This is probably where the term bomb comes from, since Touhou is a shooter game.

cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »
Another really minor update: I looked at the manuals of the PC-98 games slightly more carefully, and realized that only Reimu's bombs are "Spirit Strike" (current wiki translation is "Spiritual Attack").

In the Reimu-only games (HRtP, SoEW), "Spirit Strike" is written on the game UI.
The PoDD manual named everyone's bombs, and Reimu's are "Spirit Strikes".
According to the manuals for LLS and MS, "Spirit Strike" is one of Reimu's abilities, but they didn't name the other characters' bombs.

Of course these details mean nothing in the current canon. :derp:
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cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2012, 02:05:32 PM »
Of course these details mean nothing in the current canon. :derp:
That's not totally right too. Reimu's system card in Soku is "Spirit Strike Talisman", still giving her a special link to Spirit Strike.

Anyway, I'd like to ask you: what are some common myths and misunderstandings regarding the canon? I may try to turn this thread into a collection of them. Of course, first I'll need the spare time to do that...
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cuc

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Re: Some important mistranslations and common misunderstandings
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2012, 12:29:26 AM »
Not all misunderstandings are results of mistranslations though.

One topic on my mind recently is that the SSiB plot summary in the wiki's Tewi page says the earth rabbits are unaware of the fate of Ookuninushi, when SSiB itself has made absolutely no such statement.

Due to the white hare of Inaba story, rabbits are sacred animals at Izumo Great Shrine (the main shrine of Ookuninushi, and where he is sealed according to SSiB), I find it more likely they know exactly what has happened to him.

<Tengukami> For future reference, you don't need to triple post - just edit the last post you made. It'd be appreciated, thanks!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:07:19 AM by Tengukami »
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