Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition

[Sakurei]

You're probably right about the second non being harder. I just remember studying much harder to find a way around the third non because I tended to clip the second non too often so I bombed it more often than not

I'm really strange with Royal Dance and Guze Flash. I can clear Royal Dance much more easily than Guze Flash because the gaps are fairly big and you follow the same movement every time. Guze Flash is ridiculously hard because I can't read bullets that fast and I have no idea how to not make my eyes move steadily closer to my hitbox as the card goes on/I have to make more adjustments. I think if you're going for really any full game run, you'd want to practice stage 6 a lot before going in. I can't tell you how many times the Sun card (the one with the big yellow bullets) killed me before I got used to how the bullets move. So embarrassing.

during my perfect attempts, 2nd non killed me so_many_times. it's a stupid pixel perfection pattern and these aren't fun.

I'm better at guze flash than royal dance. took me like 40 (?) tries to get my first capture on it in a run. whereas I got guze flash instantly. not that my record on it is perfect. But I know what you mean. My biggest problem would be the glow, though :V they hurt my eyes, I have to blink...super fast bullets. WELL FUCK.
and yeah, 2nd spellcard killed me often, too. I have like 50/99+ on it and most of these captures are from the perfects attempts. I always thought I was the only one who needed to actually practice it, instead of capping at the frist try :V

[I have no name]

OKAY. tell me how to position myself in front of the boss when the screen is full of shit,

You don't.  You do it BEFORE the screen is flooded with bullets.  :V

[Sakurei]

...autobombing shit is cheap and should never be done, really.

[Lepetit89]

...autobombing shit is cheap and should never be done, really.

Autobombing as in, planning on bombing through something regardless of the situation? Stage 5 Nazrin is the first thing that comes to my mind here, and I'm sure there would be loads of other examples if I spent some time thinking about it.

[Sakurei]

yeah, autobombing regardless of what situation you're in; such as bombing when the spell starts etc.
stage 5 nazrin? why would you bomb something so fun? that doesn't even make sense :V greatest treasure is one hell of a spell, really cool. something I'd never bomb. I rather eat a death. the only thing where I am quickly using a bomb when I feel like I lost control is byakuren's 2nd non. and only when I feel like I have no control over what's happening or when I feel cornered. not like "can't do it, press x"

I am sure there are a lot of people who disagree with me on this, but it really doesn't help you improve to just throw a bomb at something just because you can.

[Seppo Hovi]

You bomb Stage 5 Nazrin for score.

[Lepetit89]

yeah, autobombing regardless of what situation you're in; such as bombing when the spell starts etc.
stage 5 nazrin? why would you bomb something so fun? that doesn't even make sense :V greatest treasure is one hell of a spell, really cool. something I'd never bomb. I rather eat a death. the only thing where I am quickly using a bomb when I feel like I lost control is byakuren's 2nd non. and only when I feel like I have no control over what's happening or when I feel cornered. not like "can't do it, press x"

I am sure there are a lot of people who disagree with me on this, but it really doesn't help you improve to just throw a bomb at something just because you can.

No, but bombing through that Spellcard will actually help you gather resources since the amount of UFO-dropping fairies after Nazrin is tied to the time it takes you to defeat her. If you take too long, you might wind up going directly into the fairy-spam section and might not even be able to summon any UFOs. The way I saw it, that fight was always a simple equation - use one Bomb, get two after the fight because you managed to finish it quickly enough to summon two green UFOs with the fairies I would not have even seen had I not bombed the Spellcard. What's more, the Spellcard is tough. I could try to dodge it, survive one wave, maybe two, then make a mistake, use a Bomb anyway and still wind up being too late for any additional UFOs, essentially losing one where I could have gained one and lived through everything safely.
Bombing there is strategy, I think you're getting way ahead of yourself if you call it cheap.

Another example would be Scarlet Meister. A single Bomb doesn't even guarantee victory there if you use it a bad time. Since you use it when the need arises, that will probably happen quite often. Due to that, I developed this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwuwiJyTSIE#t=3m22s. I spent time developing that strategy, defusing a part of the game that was likely to be a major problem, using the means the game provided me with. I really don't see what's cheap about strategically using Bombs.

Generally, if I want to improve, I'll either do it when I'm out of Bombs or just play Practice. Full runs, 1CCs in particular, are the runs where I make use of every single strategy I've developed in order to come up with the most efficient way to get through the stages for the sake of actually winning.

Please excuse my tone here, but you should be aware of the fact that you'll more than likely step on quite a few toes here if you essentially call their 1CCs cheap.

[Sakurei]

I haven't called anyone's 1cc cheap. hell, in my UFo 1cc I bombed greatest treasure, too. But generally doing that is...I just don't like it. UFo lunatic 1cc is a great achievement and everyone should feel proud about their first of it.

if you're really that dependent on that one extra bomb, eh, sure. do whatever you want. I may totally be on my own here and that's fine. bombing for something like that just isn't what I like to do and it's difficult for me to understand why people would trivialize fun parts of the stage for an extra bomb. as far as experience has told me, I'd waste that anyway because I die with bombs in stock. preemtive bombing just isn't what I like to do. but everyone's free to play however they like.
I really am just stating what I think about it - even if it sounds condescending what I certainly don't intend. it's just that ]i]I[/i] find it cheap and that I think it shouldn't be done, regardless of the situation. that's all.

also, vee nobody here plays UFO for score on lunatic :V just saying. not to my knowledge at least

[Lepetit89]

I haven't called anyone's 1cc cheap. hell, in my UFo 1cc I bombed greatest treasure, too. But generally doing that is...I just don't like it. UFo lunatic 1cc is a great achievement and everyone should feel proud about their first of it.

if you're really that dependent on that one extra bomb, eh, sure. do whatever you want. I may totally be on my own here and that's fine. bombing for something like that just isn't what I like to do and it's difficult for me to understand why people would trivialize fun parts of the stage for an extra bomb. as far as experience has told me, I'd waste that anyway because I die with bombs in stock. preemtive bombing just isn't what I like to do. but everyone's free to play however they like.
I really am just stating what I think about it - even if it sounds condescending what I certainly don't intend. it's just that ]i]I[/i] find it cheap and that I think it shouldn't be done, regardless of the situation. that's all.

also, vee nobody here plays UFO for score on lunatic :V just saying. not to my knowledge at least

No big deal if it wasn't meant to sound condescending, it just has certain implications which you probably didn't want to include when all you probably  wanted to say was "I prefer excitement in my runs, so I don't want to rely on Bomb-strategies" but maybe I'm just a little sensitive in that regard since I wouldn't exactly call myself a strong player. Many, many of my 1CCs contain strategies like those, so it doesn't seem that far off to think a 1CC cheap if one thinks a player's approach cheap, but it seems that it was just a misunderstanding.

Anyway, I understand your opinion there regarding  not wanting to bomb. It's an individual style of playing and that's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. Glad to see that it was just a misunderstanding basically.

[Sakurei]

I will be honest: applying certain strategies is sometimes harder than just capturing a card/pattern/stage potion. the nazrin thing may not be a good example here, but I'm sure that if I thought about it there'd e some I could think of.

I'm not a strong player myself. I really aren't. I just have a reluctancy to bomb and that's killed me more times than I can count. it isn't smart play at all. it may look more impressive once the run is done, but...man, it also takes longer to get there. really, watching older replays I often think "why the fuck did I just not bomb this". I mean, in my first MoF 1cc on lunatic, I refused to bomb optical camouflage and PWG just because I liked the idea of possibly capturing them in a full run. I died to both. so yeah, I'm the idiot kind of player, if you want so. strategies require planning, practicing and careful adjustments. the only time I really botherd with something like that was 4 days ago when I was planning for the never-to-happen NMNB GFW extra.

[Karisa]

Pretty much all of my first 1ccs were full of planned auto-bombs. I've always seen that as how to 1cc Touhou: learn which patterns you don't have a decent rate of capturing, and bomb them so you don't die.

And then there's MoF midboss Hina's card. You get so many faith items and power items for auto-bombing it that unless you're doing a no-bombs run of some kind, there's no reason not to.

[I have no name]

Ten Desires Marisa planned bombs: 2 bombs=1 trance in a boss fight.  You can literally TRIVIALLY no death Miko starting with 2 bombs in the beginning of Stage 6 if you have your bombs planned.  Not planning these bombs would force you to have to dodge a lot more, putting the clear in jeopardy.  That's where I was coming from.  I believe it was MMX who uploaded a video demonstrating this, but I might be wrong.

[Lepetit89]

I will be honest: applying certain strategies is sometimes harder than just capturing a card/pattern/stage potion. the nazrin thing may not be a good example here, but I'm sure that if I thought about it there'd e some I could think of.

I'm not a strong player myself. I really aren't. I just have a reluctancy to bomb and that's killed me more times than I can count. it isn't smart play at all. it may look more impressive once the run is done, but...man, it also takes longer to get there. really, watching older replays I often think "why the fuck did I just not bomb this". I mean, in my first MoF 1cc on lunatic, I refused to bomb optical camouflage and PWG just because I liked the idea of possibly capturing them in a full run. I died to both. so yeah, I'm the idiot kind of player, if you want so. strategies require planning, practicing and careful adjustments. the only time I really botherd with something like that was 4 days ago when I was planning for the never-to-happen NMNB GFW extra.

I think UFO in general is full of such examples. Executing certain UFO routes for maximum gain is a lot harder simply living through them; for instance, summoning two single-colour UFOs during the fairy spam at the end of Stage 3. Picking up the UFO the last big fairy leaves behind while surviving without using another Bomb is quite hard and I don't think I've ever done it reliably; not even 20% success rate if I recall correctly.

I understand your attitude, though; there are always certain Spellcards where one cannot help but think "if I capture this and then get the clear, it will the best thing ever!", but in general, such thinking only makes me much more tense, especially if I actually do manage to capture the Spellcard or pattern in question. Always such a delicate balance between being confident and being a nervous wreck. I usually get the best results when I get rid of that "This run has the highest chance of winning I've ever had!", such thinking leads to Game Over going 2/0 into Byakuren's final Spellcard on Lunatic as opposed to going into it 0/0 and winning, simply because I only wanted to find out if at least my practice paid off.
In retrospect, a lot of old runs seem to be full of mistakes, I guess that's the same for everyone.

[Goldom]

I'm with Sakurei here, but I fully recognize it's to my own detriment. I just viscerally don't like planning to use bombs - I play every game to try to be as perfect as possible, even when it's something I'm miles away from actually perfecting. I could probably make it through IN Lunatic by now if I just bombed everything I do poorly at, but I just... don't like to. (If it isn't obvious enough from the way I obsessively track statistics and numbers, I'm a bit of an OCD perfectionist...)

[Chuckolator]

I stopped going for full runs long ago, so I didn't have to ignore that part of my mind. <_<

Anyway, here's a question I've been meaning to ask for a while but never really got around to asking.

Has anyone actually done this before? I'd imagine it's possible with some extreme TASing or something, which I would watch.

[I have no name]

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/High_Scores#Imperishable_Night_world_records_.7E_.22B.22_route_.26_Extra_only_.28.E6.9D.B1.E6.96.B9.E6.B0.B8.E5.A4.9C.E6.8A.84.E3.81.AE.E4.B8.96.E7.95.8C.E8.A8.98.E9.8C.B2_.7E_Final-B.E3.81.A8EX.E9.99.90.E5.AE.9A.29
Sakuya lunatic WR.  Captures Hourai Jewel.  Fails Buddhist Diamond.  Enjoy the capture.

[DarkAtma]

Might be because i am not so good but i just cant plain beat her spell cards on normal difficulty and she is like the hardest stage 6 boss for me, only kanako getting close, any tips on how to deal with utsuho?

[Reiko]

Might be because i am not so good but i just cant plain beat her spell cards on normal difficulty and she is like the hardest stage 6 boss for me, only kanako getting close, any tips on how to deal with utsuho?

Bomb everything. This is SA, so you can bombspam quite a lot.

More in detail :
First nonspell is trivial, just stay at the bottom under her and move a bit if needed.
First spell is really hard. General strategy (in normal) is to alternate between middle-(left/right)-middle--left/right)... when she shoots the big suns at you. Don't be afraid to use one or two bombs here.
Second nonspell : dodge the blue lines, then slowly stream the big bubbles, starting from the bottom (try to stay under her the more possible so it doesn't take ages).
Second spell : no real trick here, the hardest part is to read the small bullets hidden by the big suns. Bomb when needed.
Third nonspell : trivial, there are some huge gaps, stay under her.
Third spell : there is some kind of safespot. You can stay on the horizontal line where the two circles of suns intersect, so you only have to dodge the small bullets, moving horizontal-only.
Fourth non : same as second, a bit easier.
Fourth spell : no real trick either. I usually try to stay in the middle on the screen and micrododge horizontal-only, but there are lots of ways to do it. Bomb when needed.
Final spell : read the barrages of yellow bullets, get used to the gravity change, don't get clipped.

Go watch any perfect stage 6 replay for more details, there are a few ones on youtube (it's on lunatic because people are crazy, but still).
Again, if you're going for a first 1cc, don't hesitate to bomb a lot. Continue-spam stage 6 once you get there, it's painful but you'll learn to plan everything. You can clear the stage, starting with 2 lives, while bombing all the hard stuff.

[I have no name]

Go watch any perfect stage 6 replay for more details, there are a few ones on youtube (it's on lunatic because people are crazy, but still).

I have a perfect Stage 6 on normal uploaded.  Ignore the stage part, I'd put in 2 dozen attempts and taptaptaptap gets boring.

[RNG]

In games without spellcard systems, AKA every arcade shmup, that "I won't bomb because it's not as impressive" attitude does not hold water. When you want to get a clear, it's best to eliminate every pattern that you can't do consistently by bombing it. If you're going for a perfect run or a no-bomb challenge, go ahead (personally I think that's one of the more entertaining ways to play Touhou games, because there aren't that many situations you're expected to bomb).

If you're going for a regular clear, though, deciding not to use bombs just means everything is going to take longer and be more frustrating. I don't know why you'd willingly do that. Playing Touhou games for survival is all about minimizing risk - hence why people don't generally handle PSM without safespotting, and why everyone gaps Stage 5 and 6 of SA. If the game gives you these tools, you're a fool not to use them.

On topic: Royal Clan's Chaotic Dance. The arrow hitboxes make me afraid of doing precise dodges so I want to do it quickly, but that means spending lots of time under Miko, which leads to exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Due to random boss movement, it's real real fucking hard to do this consistently. Should I just time it out by directing Futo off-screen?

[Sakurei]

I suppose you've got the rrow hitboxes figured out. so I'll leave that point out.

the first two waves are easy. you can actually stay under miko a lot due to the rings being very open (I suppose you get what I mean) :V try to make the arrows they shoot to overlap for easier dodging.

for the third wave, you'll want to get the first two shot somewhere far away from the bottom. lead the first shot into the middle of the screen, slightly above midpoint, if miko doesn't block you. then, before the 2 shots overlap, go down between them. that'll also cause this wave to be somewhere in the middle. the third shot will be farther down, but should still be high enough to not corner you into death.

if you're reimu at full power, you should be done just when the 4th wave begins. I've also got another way to do it, but...it takes longer and is even less consistent. I will tell you now: if you get a bad RNG, the arrow on the 3rd wave will screw you over. make sure to find a gap as large as possible.

if you find that to be too weird/hard/inconsistent, I'd suggest you time it out, yeah.

[Zengeku]

Royal Clans Chaotic Dance? I recommend just playing it for score.

[RNG]

Do you mean trancing it? I think I've said twice on the last two pages that I'm doing a no-bomb no-trance run. Jeez.

[Tsym]

On topic: Royal Clan's Chaotic Dance. The arrow hitboxes make me afraid of doing precise dodges so I want to do it quickly, but that means spending lots of time under Miko, which leads to exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Due to random boss movement, it's real real fucking hard to do this consistently. Should I just time it out by directing Futo off-screen?

I honestly find timing it out harder than just clearing it ASAP. It's one of my more consistent Miko cards because of how simple it is as long as you don't underestimate the arrow hitboxes (I've killed myself too many times with that before I got used to it). You should always be done with this card before the pair shoot a full circle of arrows. Sakurei's strategy is essentially how you do it, but I find it easy to just do the pattern recommended for the third wave for all three. Basically the key is to shotgun Miko, make the two head towards the middle, then make them go upwards instead of down. That way the bullets will spread far enough apart that you will never have to do any super tight dodges. You don't need to always be under Miko either, especially for the beginning of the third wave. As long as you make the pair go up the screen instead of down for their second shot, you'll never really need to worry about getting an impossible wave.

[Zengeku]

Do you mean trancing it? I think I've said twice on the last two pages that I'm doing a no-bomb no-trance run. Jeez.

Yeah, i know. Just messing with you.  :V

[LadyScarlet]

UGH.

PATCHY'S NONSPELLS.

Lasers go die in a hole please.

[RNG]

Lasers have no hitbox as soon as they start to fade. So start at the right, move left through the laser once it's directly vertical, then stream the next wave from the left to the right. Make sure the bullets she fires in between laser sweeps don't push you too far from the left.

Something like this.

[Tsym]

I'm just kind of going through the games haphazardly right now trying to find something engaging to do, but I noticed in TD that there are a few spells that I absolutely cannot do at any less than 4 power. In particular I'm talking about:
-Tongling Yoshika
-Futo's last one (I just get overwhelmed too quickly)

These two are only a problem for me because they tend to scale in difficulty the longer you take. It's not just a matter of needing to dodge something for a longer period of time as with other patterns at lower power. I really have no idea how to tackle either, so any advice aside from bomb/trance them would be appreciated. Or if there's no way around it and I have to go into these with a lot of power, then so be it :/.

UGH.

PATCHY'S NONSPELLS.

Lasers go die in a hole please.

Like RNG said, the lasers have no hitbox when they start to fade. You can actually abuse this to a greater extent than shown in that video by just sticking along the bottom and dashing to restream the aimed bits like in this replay. I can't remember ever failing Patchy's non-spells (not even stupid deaths!) after figuring this out.

[Seppo Hovi]

also, vee nobody here plays UFO for score on lunatic :V just saying. not to my knowledge at least

Are you drunk, Sakurei? But yeah, Baity, Nautie, Dotsie and Nereid have all played it for score with documentary on the scoreboard table, Riz and Jaimers have some stuff, and I've tried and failed.

-

Tongling Yoshika, I'd just plan a trance for it, especially if going for a basic clear, but I think the tactic I used (and ended up trancebombing the card anyway) was streaming downwards slowly just below Yoshika, starting from upper screen, damaging Seiga everytime Yoshika died. Might not work, Cactu had some different tactic for it and I didn't fully get the grasp of it, ask him if he ever comes around, I guess. It's TD, I haven't played the game enough to give advice, but let's pretend that this is somewhat useful.

Futo's last card is spinning along the pattern until it reaches the final phase, which is nothing too hard compared to, uh, Futo's first card. You should be able to refill your trance during the fight, though (assuming you just trance the first card), so you could just trance it once you start running into panic. For the actually dodging things part, I don't really know. I guess you should do some runs at spell practice in order to get into the rythm it spins at, so that you can move along it without having to think too much of it. Then just focus on looking at the external bullets you have to dodge, and dodge them, it's not too hard and there are not too many bullets. For the amulet hell (if it exists on lunatic, and not just on the O.D., I don't remember), the middle is somewhat safe, and it lasts for such a little time that you can probably finish it with actually dodging just one or two waves. Of course you could position yourself so that you had to dodge only one wave at a time, it'd probably help if you were going to dodge it. I'd just trance, you'll get a refill from early stage 6 anyway.

[Lepetit89]

Tongling Yoshika, I'd just plan a trance for it, especially if going for a basic clear, but I think the tactic I used (and ended up trancebombing the card anyway) was streaming downwards slowly just below Yoshika, starting from upper screen, damaging Seiga everytime Yoshika died. Might not work, Cactu had some different tactic for it and I didn't fully get the grasp of it, ask him if he ever comes around, I guess. It's TD, I haven't played the game enough to give advice, but let's pretend that this is somewhat useful.

The way I did it I lured Yoshika to the top right after every resurrection. If all goes well, the Spellcard will be over before the second reanimation is complete (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fauOaG6jj8M#t=3m41s). Hardest part is reading the lasers while misdirecting the knives I think.