Author Topic: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition  (Read 236466 times)

Validon98

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #840 on: November 25, 2012, 05:06:18 AM »
Mikoto Yaobi on Lunatic.

I don't personally know how to do it (curse you inability to do Lunatic!), but Jaimers did a Lunatic 1cc of Marine Benefit. Looking at replays helps sometimes.
In my opinion, though, her nonspells are really fricking difficult. I hate them so much.
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #841 on: November 25, 2012, 05:09:01 AM »
A lot of people have done 1ccs, myself and Malky included.  It's a matter of knowing how to dodge the patterns for attempting a perfect.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #842 on: November 25, 2012, 05:56:23 AM »
(curse you inability to do Lunatic!)

this is me in a Nutshell :V I can barely 1CC IN on normal with the Border Team let alone Lunatic in any game, did attempt a Lunatic run in MoF once, gave up after the getting to Stage 2 :P
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #843 on: November 25, 2012, 08:38:56 AM »
Mikoto Yaobi on Lunatic.

Practically the entire fight. I can do the 3rd non, Reimu's solo card, and the last card with consistency, and pretty much nothing else.

Haaaaaaaaaalp?
2nd spell is the only other thing I'm good at, I usually just try to kill all the fairies before I attack Mikoto for the few seconds until she launches a new wave. How do you do it?
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #844 on: November 25, 2012, 10:04:48 AM »
Mikoto Yaobi on Lunatic.

Practically the entire fight. I can do the 3rd non, Reimu's solo card, and the last card with consistency, and pretty much nothing else.

Haaaaaaaaaalp?

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #845 on: November 25, 2012, 10:28:49 AM »
2nd spell is the only other thing I'm good at, I usually just try to kill all the fairies before I attack Mikoto for the few seconds until she launches a new wave. How do you do it?
In theory, the same way. In practice, I'm already underpowered because of an earlier death, which means I can't do it in time, and wind up just dropping a bomb next to Mikoto.

Breaking critical point is done like this.
That really helps, thanks. Now I need to start actually not sucking, at least enough to read that thing. :V

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #846 on: November 25, 2012, 02:43:06 PM »
Since you're going for NBNT, if it bothers you THAT much, you might want to consider timing it out instead. You'll lose the life spirit, but if you don't need every last one to get an extend, then see if you can just time it out instead.
This isn't SA. Nonspells don't give life parts. And neither does Yoshika's final spell, so feel free to time that out.

However, if you're doing NBNT, you actually need pretty much every single life spirit in the game to reach the 15 extend (it takes 8+10+12+15=45, there are 48 total, you'll likely miss two by not defeating Kogasa fast enough, and you'd probably prefer to reach the extend before Avoidance of Defiance rather than after). If you miss a life spirit, well, hopefully either you don't need that last extend, or one of your death trances manages to double a life part.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:45:52 PM by Karisa »

RNG

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #847 on: November 25, 2012, 07:43:48 PM »
However, if you're doing NBNT, you actually need pretty much every single life spirit in the game to reach the 15 extend (it takes 8+10+12+15=45, there are 48 total, you'll likely miss two by not defeating Kogasa fast enough, and you'd probably prefer to reach the extend before Avoidance of Defiance rather than after). If you miss a life spirit, well, hopefully either you don't need that last extend, or one of your death trances manages to double a life part.

Timing a death trance at Gagouji generally gives me 2 extra, but eh. It's a tradeoff. Since the only two spells I'd use the last life on are not incredibly difficult and I probably wouldn't have enough spirits to deathtrance them, I think I can just ignore the 15 extend anyways.

this is me in a Nutshell :V I can barely 1CC IN on normal with the Border Team let alone Lunatic in any game, did attempt a Lunatic run in MoF once, gave up after the getting to Stage 2 :P

Man, I remember when I couldn't pass Stage 3 in any Lunatics. I think it partly took a few years of playing arcade shmups to whip me into shape and drill in the lesson that 1) you have to keep playing even when you think you've hit a wall or it's gotten "too hard" i.e. the challenge is mostly psychological, and 2) you have to abuse the fuck out of every tool for practice. This includes replays.

On the other hand, Jaimers went into bullet hell games fully aware of their memo-based nature, studied the crap out of that "how to do SA extra" guide, and got it pretty soon after picking the games up. Did it benefit him? Well, judge for yourself :V

So don't say you can't do Lunatic mode. That's the only thing stopping you from doing Lunatic mode.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #848 on: November 25, 2012, 07:53:21 PM »
Stage 5 Orin midboss first nonspell (normal/hard): fling myself left and right to stay in a track or dodge between the shots? Neither has much reliability for me.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #849 on: November 25, 2012, 09:15:14 PM »
Stage 5 Orin midboss first nonspell (normal/hard): fling myself left and right to stay in a track or dodge between the shots? Neither has much reliability for me.

You've gotta follow the lanes as the easiest method, depending on which lane you follow, what shottype you are and how good your control is (unfocus focus alot?  able to do it 90% focused? only unfocus?) will dictate how fast you kill it off.  eg. ReimuC has a nightmare of a time killing it off if you unfocus during it, hahaha.  :derp:

On Lunatic at least, you can cut in-between lanes rather than always following them to stay underneath Orin longer, but I'm not too good at it myself and find it too risky.  As long as you kill it then it's fine, since you've got to remember that the longer the midboss battle is, the shorter the Popcorn section after, so timing down this spell alot before killing it helps.

Really, it'd help to give it a few tries in practice, it takes a bit to get used to how fast you're meant to travel along the lanes.   :wat:
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #850 on: November 26, 2012, 01:13:14 AM »
Any tips on SFN? I seem to get overwhelmed easily once it's < 50s.
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #851 on: November 26, 2012, 06:11:31 AM »
This isn't SA. Nonspells don't give life parts. And neither does Yoshika's final spell, so feel free to time that out.

However, if you're doing NBNT, you actually need pretty much every single life spirit in the game to reach the 15 extend (it takes 8+10+12+15=45, there are 48 total, you'll likely miss two by not defeating Kogasa fast enough, and you'd probably prefer to reach the extend before Avoidance of Defiance rather than after). If you miss a life spirit, well, hopefully either you don't need that last extend, or one of your death trances manages to double a life part.
Derp. I forgot that it's only after every spell card (except for the last) in TD. It would get pretty outrageous if it was after every non-spell. Imagine how many spirits Miko or Sado would give :V

Stage 5 Orin midboss first nonspell (normal/hard): fling myself left and right to stay in a track or dodge between the shots? Neither has much reliability for me.
Both are viable strategies, but it will take practice to do either consistently. If you follow tracks, what you don't want to do is have to go up a wall. I find that starting in the track to the right of the middle cuts down on far you need to go up a wall if you do need to do it, but you will have to bomb it with some shot types. You just can't do enough damage to finish it before you time it out. If you do bomb it as ReimuA/C (maybe MarisaA?), make sure to try to do it after dodging through the lanes a bit. The bomb will carry over into the second non-spell, and you can get some free damage/avoid the possibility of clipping bullets.

Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #852 on: November 27, 2012, 01:14:08 AM »
Sorry for being late to the PoFV party.
Someone like K.B. might know for certain.
eb (among others) has said essentially what Star King said.  I don't know if it's true, but I haven't seen it disproved.

I only research what a mere mortal could put to use.  For your needs, Zil, you'll have to do your own investigation.

Oh. Okay. I guess I misunderstood the strategy page on wiki. I'll stop trying to stop firing then... now just to deal with the original mess.
That exact section bugged me for a long time.  I finally decided that what it's trying to say (or what it should say) is that there's value in only cancelling what you need to cancel, at least for survival when things get hairy.  You can shoot less and be more precise, only killing a small part of a fairy chain or only killing the activated spirit right above you, clearing a safe area/path for you while letting a lot of the pellets exit the screen.  You'll lose out on score and charge refill, and it'll prevent you from fully pressing a human opponent, but if it keeps you from getting hit then it's probably worth it.  I'm not sure if I use it much at all against most characters, but I've used it a lot against Medicine (although my main goal there is to kill fewer spirits so I see less poison come back at me).

That said, I certainly wouldn't call it a "style", as the wiki page does.  It's a situational thing, and it's really just a side effect of learning to use bullet-cancelling for defense.

I THINK the CPU's built-in timer for when it decides to get hit stop counting down if you haven't been shooting for several.
I'd buy that.

edit:
And use the charge invincibility to hop through the walls she makes.
Agreed on the recommendation, and I'd still use the invincibility frames, but I got to thinking... I bet you could get down the timing and reliably jump through them without using lvl1s.  After all, those hot dogs are more bark than bite.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 01:35:31 AM by K.B. »
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RNG

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #853 on: November 27, 2012, 03:06:28 AM »
All right, Yoshika's 3rd non is just a matter of moving away for the first wave, avoiding a few fast bullets, and then staying under her. Seiga's on the other hand are really fucking thick. Her 3rd is not bad but her first and second are total luckshit. Is there any way to avoid being shat on by a wall of kunai and jellybeans?


Zil

Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #855 on: November 27, 2012, 01:14:43 PM »
edit:Agreed on the recommendation, and I'd still use the invincibility frames, but I got to thinking... I bet you could get down the timing and reliably jump through them without using lvl1s.  After all, those hot dogs are more bark than bite.
You can do that, yeah. Especially once you've died a bunch of times and everything's really slow, it's actually not that hard. Getting through at max rank is another story though. Also, if you're sure you'll be hit otherwise, it's probably worth lunging into the wall and hoping you luck out, doing your best to aim for the spaces.

And about pseudo-pacifying story mode, it seems to be just like how Extra mode works, yeah. If you carefully shoot only one fairy at a time, the AI eventually loses the match. Lily can really screw you up if you're doing that though, since the AI reflects everything, and often gets a boss attack out of it, and if you start reflecting things it's pretty much impossible to stop. Then your score will of course be terrible anyway, so you'll have no lives to work with. I think the only real use for this kind of playing would be once you've earned all the extends (or enough points. i.e. try to cheese Medicine or someone if you can score enough from all the other characters), you can kinda buy yourself some time in the beginning of a match, then start going all out once Lily appears, and maybe then you've slightly shortened the amount of time you have to spend dodging anything difficult. (Also note that you can probably stop shooting entirely to just delay the match until Lily shows up, if you have the patience, and the interest in scoring.)
All right, Yoshika's 3rd non is just a matter of moving away for the first wave, avoiding a few fast bullets, and then staying under her. Seiga's on the other hand are really fucking thick. Her 3rd is not bad but her first and second are total luckshit. Is there any way to avoid being shat on by a wall of kunai and jellybeans?
I'm guessing you know the beans are aimed. Try to position yourself so you go through the kunai and the beans separately. So avoid Yoshika sometimes, or rush up through the kunai and stay above them for a bit, or whatever works. Don't be too worried about not shooting Seiga. You aren't in any rush, really.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:49:10 PM by Zil »

RNG

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #856 on: November 28, 2012, 09:14:07 PM »
Well, I think I got rid of some of the more outstanding issues. There are still a few specific attacks that trouble me, though. Let me make a list.

- Heal By Desire. Marisa is too weak to do it streaming side-to-side, so I have to stream it top down. This is very iffy, because the jellybeans tend to get in the way when I sneak out one side and make my way back to the top. Is there a better way that doesn't involve timing it out?

- Guhun Yegui. Even in Spell Practice I'm woefully inconsistent. If I work too hard on moving the orbs to the corner of the screen, I get cornered, and the curvature of the walls really interferes with killing Seiga.

- Tongling Yoshika. I hate this attack. If I try to stay at the top to draw Yoshika back up, I end up not killing her and Seiga goes full "you're fucked" mode. Attempts to create a path that works every time have failed because Seiga's movement is so random.

And can any of you guys suggest improvements/things to work on here like Nindella did with my SA run? Particularly on Stage 5.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #857 on: November 28, 2012, 09:46:10 PM »
- Guhun Yegui. Even in Spell Practice I'm woefully inconsistent. If I work too hard on moving the orbs to the corner of the screen, I get cornered, and the curvature of the walls really interferes with killing Seiga.

- Tongling Yoshika. I hate this attack. If I try to stay at the top to draw Yoshika back up, I end up not killing her and Seiga goes full "you're fucked" mode. Attempts to create a path that works every time have failed because Seiga's movement is so random.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqJtFTsgAU8 is my 1cc, it used Reimu but the techniques used on those 2 spells don't really differ at all.  For Tongling Yoshika jsut focus down Yoshika, and right before she gets revived circle around the screen once, waiting for the set of lasers in the top corner.  With perfect timing it ends in 2 waves/1 circle, but I do it twice there for safety.

Heal by Desire you can stream down, escape to the side and re-center.  Pretty consistent method for me, though I botched it in my 1cc run.  make sure you aren't shooting when you're on the side though.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #858 on: November 28, 2012, 11:09:35 PM »
Fairy Wars. All of it.  >:(
I've played this game several times, but no matter how well I do in the beginning I generally start failing in Stage 2. Any general advice?
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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #859 on: November 28, 2012, 11:26:19 PM »
for GFW: freeze more. use your bombs, you get them in abundance. Also lok at some replays - I am sure there are some - on how to execute parts you're dying often to. that's really all advice I can give.

I could sarcastically tell you not to touch the bullet, but who am I to do that :V

Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #860 on: November 29, 2012, 03:25:16 AM »
Well, I think I got rid of some of the more outstanding issues. There are still a few specific attacks that trouble me, though. Let me make a list.

- Heal By Desire. Marisa is too weak to do it streaming side-to-side, so I have to stream it top down. This is very iffy, because the jellybeans tend to get in the way when I sneak out one side and make my way back to the top. Is there a better way that doesn't involve timing it out?

- Guhun Yegui. Even in Spell Practice I'm woefully inconsistent. If I work too hard on moving the orbs to the corner of the screen, I get cornered, and the curvature of the walls really interferes with killing Seiga.

- Tongling Yoshika. I hate this attack. If I try to stay at the top to draw Yoshika back up, I end up not killing her and Seiga goes full "you're fucked" mode. Attempts to create a path that works every time have failed because Seiga's movement is so random.

And can any of you guys suggest improvements/things to work on here like Nindella did with my SA run? Particularly on Stage 5.
Looked at your replay:
-For Kyouko's penultimate card, try to redirect Kyouko twice to the edge. That way you basically only need to worry about one side of bullets at a time. Using Marisa, you should clear it before the second round gets too crazy. Even if you can't redirect Kyouko twice, dodge it near the side anyway. Makes it easier to read the bubbles since the ones from the opposing side spread out more.
-For where you died in stage 3, you probably want to try sitting under the spirits spawn point instead of the fairies. Makes it near impossible for deaths like that.
-For Heal By Desire, you have the right idea, but after you stream downward, dash to the walls before returning to the center. It's much safer and still lets you capture the card, but you might run very tight on time.
-Stage 4 desyncs for me. So uh got nothing
-Guhen Yegui is a really simple card. You don't want to redirect the orbs too much, because the bullets Seiga fires after every "lap" are aimed. Basically you want to move in a vertical oval shape like a '0' right under Seiga. Stay right underneath Seiga, then when you hear the sound of the orbs starting to move, move downward, move up through the bullet walls, then back under Seiga. The strategy never fails for me. It's kind of like Dipper Creeping Close. Annoying until you get the pattern down, and trivial once you do.
-I'm not good at Tongling Yoshika either, but it seems like it's just a plain tough card if you aren't good at dodging bullets on the side. Basically the strategy is to drag Yoshika down to the bottom, then up to one corner, then the other. Should be done after that using Marisa. You almost always want to be hitting Yoshika until she dies as long as you're under her. I believe Seiga should never enter a much faster knife firing phase though. I believe Marisa may be powerful enough to not even need to drag Yoshika up to the other corner if you stay under Seiga instead. Not sure though. There are plenty of perfect stage 4 videos around.
-You perfected stage 5 and did it pretty much flawlessly, so I really don't know what else to say about that.
-I'm not sure whether stage 6 desynced or not, but for the part with the orbs shooting lasers, you want to kill the first two that come up on one side, then dash over to the other and kill the two on the side there, then return to the middle and finish the two there. Practice it a bit, and the stage portion of stage 6 should become near trivial.

Personally I think that you're going to need at least 2 extra lives on Miko (third non-spell and penultimate card, might want to keep a spare for Guze Flash), so you're fairly close already. Honestly the places where you died in stages 2 and 3 are easily fixable, so you're very close already. Just practice Miko a bit and you're golden.

RNG

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #861 on: November 29, 2012, 03:34:47 AM »
TY! My current major trouble spot in the first 4 stages is prob Seiga's second non, but I'll just look at more vids for a general method. The Stage 2 and 3 deaths aren't normal but I NDNB the first 3 stages so infrequently that I just roll with it if I have 2 deaths or less.

Too bad about the Stage 4 desync but that was nothing special. I've nearly perfected it a bunch in practice, dying only to Seiga's second non, but eh. 2 deaths, not bad.

Yeah, I did bite the dust on Stage 6. Hard. I was jittery. The stage portion is close to trivial aside from those last 4 life pieces, but you don't get to see it because my brain stopped working after perfect Stage 5.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 03:43:12 AM by RNG »

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #862 on: November 29, 2012, 03:35:50 AM »
> miko's second non is much worse. coming from a guy who perfected her. I dunno how much that weighs when I say that :V the third really is easier if you can see where the rings are going.

also, royal dance will probably kill him if he doesn't know what he's doing, rather than guze flash, which is almost static. the stage potion can be done so that you don't have to dodge anything safe for like 2 lasers each wave.

yeah, there are a couple perfects stage 4s around, but nobody uses marisa :V all stage 4s I have seen use reimu. I don't know about the firepower of each shottype, but I assume reimu's focused shot is stronger than marisa's. just a hunch. that's all I have to add, I suppose.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #863 on: November 29, 2012, 03:42:05 AM »
TY! My current major trouble spot in the first 4 stages is prob Seiga's second non, but I'll just look at more vids for a general method. The Stage 2 and 3 deaths aren't normal but I NDNB the first 3 stages so infrequently that I just roll with it if I have 2 deaths or less.
Just do what I did and use bombs to get through Kyouko and Yoshika even though I died twice in Stage 3

I don't know about the firepower of each shottype, but I assume reimu's focused shot is stronger than marisa's. just a hunch. that's all I have to add, I suppose.
Marisa's power is slightly more than Reimu's, but Reimu's unfocused shot is more useful and her movement is easier to control.  Marisa has a better bomb, trance and trance ability, but those don't help with perfects.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #864 on: November 29, 2012, 03:44:54 AM »
Marisa's master spark is generally horrible due to the fucking slow movement speed you have during it. it may be stronger, but that's about it. Reimu's bomb is much more versatile.

that's like saying UFO MarisaA bomb is useful. just...no

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #865 on: November 29, 2012, 03:45:50 AM »
Marisa's master spark is generally horrible
>park self in front of boss
>bomb
>get half a trance

No, Sanae's bomb is horrible and Youmu's, though damaging, gets almost no trance.

RNG

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #866 on: November 29, 2012, 03:47:47 AM »
Just do what I did and use bombs to get through Kyouko and Yoshika
Guys, I'm doing a no-bomb no-trance run for pete's sake.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #867 on: November 29, 2012, 03:51:16 AM »
Guys, I'm doing a no-bomb no-trance run for pete's sake.
this was not mentioned in this thread, I just checked.  The general assumption is how do I capture this pattern or how do I get a 1cc.

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Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #868 on: November 29, 2012, 04:04:15 AM »
I knew he was doing a NBNT. which is why I (indirectly) said to learn royal dance. if he could cheese it with a bomb, it would be no problem. I just wanted to tell you that master spark is horrible.

OKAY. tell me how to position myself in front of the boss when the screen is full of shit, blocking every path towards her. we're talking about lunatic difficulty. you can't just go through walls of bullets to place a bomb for optimal trance gauge. unless it's something like guhen yegui. tough luck positioning yourself in front of yoshika on her nons, for example. or miko's nons. OR FUTOS NONS. hell, you can't eeven do that on kyoko's nons and you'll be pushed back by yuyuyko, too.

Also, saying it now: after reimu, youmu's best shottype in this game. only pansies need the trance, anyway. :V

Re: Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition
« Reply #869 on: November 29, 2012, 04:06:31 AM »
TY! My current major trouble spot in the first 4 stages is prob Seiga's second non, but I'll just look at more vids for a general method. The Stage 2 and 3 deaths aren't normal but I NDNB the first 3 stages so infrequently that I just roll with it if I have 2 deaths or less.
I know someone mentioned it above, but Seiga's second non is just a matter of not having to dodge the white bullets and kunai at the same time. You also have a limited space around the center to dodge, as I find if you go too far to either side you'll have a much tougher time since Yoshika hangs around there a while before coming back around. You might have an easier time at the corners too, but I remember in my 1cc, I only used the area around the center.

> miko's second non is much worse. coming from a guy who perfected her. I dunno how much that weighs when I say that :V the third really is easier if you can see where the rings are going.

also, royal dance will probably kill him if he doesn't know what he's doing, rather than guze flash, which is almost static. the stage potion can be done so that you don't have to dodge anything safe for like 2 lasers each wave.

yeah, there are a couple perfects stage 4s around, but nobody uses marisa :V all stage 4s I have seen use reimu. I don't know about the firepower of each shottype, but I assume reimu's focused shot is stronger than marisa's. just a hunch. that's all I have to add, I suppose.
You're probably right about the second non being harder. I just remember studying much harder to find a way around the third non because I tended to clip the second non too often so I bombed it more often than not :P

I'm really strange with Royal Dance and Guze Flash. I can clear Royal Dance much more easily than Guze Flash because the gaps are fairly big and you follow the same movement every time. Guze Flash is ridiculously hard because I can't read bullets that fast and I have no idea how to not make my eyes move steadily closer to my hitbox as the card goes on/I have to make more adjustments. I think if you're going for really any full game run, you'd want to practice stage 6 a lot before going in. I can't tell you how many times the Sun card (the one with the big yellow bullets) killed me before I got used to how the bullets move. So embarrassing.