Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition

[Sungho]

Is there any trick to getting more score in th09?
Just game over'd with less than 100000 left for an extend. I can't let this happen again.

[Zil]

Is there any trick to getting more score in th09?

We should get a team of Oompa Loompas to come out a sing whenever this question is asked.

How high was your score, which character were you using, where did you lose your lives, etc? In general, you want to get the spell point counter as high as possible. Try to time the destruction of the fairies to prevent it from resetting, and of course, avoid getting hit at any cost. Particularly in the early stages that's important, since you can get anywhere between 1 to 5 million depending on how well you do, or even higher with some characters. Once you reach stage 6 and beyond, just worry mostly about survival I guess. The longer you survive against them before losing, the more points you'll get. So even if you lose once to every boss after stage 5, you can replace all of those lives.

[Elysia]

Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana. I've managed to rack up 350 attempts with no progress whatsoever. How is this even done?

[Tsym]

I basically only have 1 question for UFO:
Is there a technique for Murasa's third non-spell like there is for her second? I tried playing the stage and looking at my replays several times, but I can't seem to find a good path. Everything else is basically a matter of skill/consistency, not knowledge

PoDD. Ellen has some seductively slow movement if that's what you're into. And all of the bullets are fast of course.

Hm PC-98 games aren't exactly my cup of tea, but perhaps PoDD might be an the exception. I'll give it a try!

You should use the safespot for Kogasa's first two attacks, besides that it looks like you have an idea of what you're doing, you just make a lot of mistakes. Your stage 5 was pretty bad, though.

I don't like using safespots for attacks that I know I absolutely cannot dodge if I do them legitimately. I only use them to reduce the number of tries I have to do playing through tons of stages again because I accidentally clipped something stupid. See: Orin's opener, Orin's second non-spell, BoWaP, etc. I think the only exception to that preference is midboss Sakuya's non-card in EoSD Stage 5. I've actually never done it legitimately haha.

And yes, stage 5 is generally where I tend to make the most mistakes in a run. Somewhat frustrating to get into it with like 6 lives and not make it past Shou. I just hate and can't get used to how the power items/background makes it really hard for me to see the red bullets - glowing or arrows. The purple ones are fine though. Also, the entire post-Nazrin section is an absolute nightmare without SanaeB's magical spread and long bomb duration. Fairly annoying.

[Nindella]

I basically only have 1 question for UFO:
Is there a technique for Murasa's third non-spell like there is for her second? I tried playing the stage and looking at my replays several times, but I can't seem to find a good path. Everything else is basically a matter of skill/consistency, not knowledge

From what I've been seeing, there is, but it's just really hard to get used to  :derp:

Anyone more proficent with UFO can correct me, but from watching people playing it there does seem to be a same repeating pattern for the 3rd non!

The real problem would probably be if the spell before glitches extra bullets on you... hehe  :3

[Cor]

I basically only have 1 question for UFO:
Is there a technique for Murasa's third non-spell like there is for her second? I tried playing the stage and looking at my replays several times, but I can't seem to find a good path.

There is, but the yellow bullets are randomly aimed, the previous spell might and usually will leave extra bullets to fuck you over, and repeating waves of the pattern linger and screw with your dodging.

I just hate and can't get used to how the power items/background makes it really hard for me to see the red bullets - glowing or arrows. The purple ones are fine though. Also, the entire post-Nazrin section is an absolute nightmare without SanaeB's magical spread and long bomb duration. Fairly annoying.

Yeah, can't see shit, captain. I know that feel.

[Seppo Hovi]

Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana. I've managed to rack up 350 attempts with no progress whatsoever. How is this even done?

Read the red butterfly-waves. Dodge the blue-violet waves with vertical movements.

[Zengeku]

I basically only have 1 question for UFO:
Is there a technique for Murasa's third non-spell like there is for her second? I tried playing the stage and looking at my replays several times, but I can't seem to find a good path. Everything else is basically a matter of skill/consistency, not knowledge

With enough practice, you'll start to notice that the gaps always appear in the same places. With enough practice you should be able to capture it consistently. Of course, it isn't exactly easy. You'll have to take into consideration that residue bullets from the previous spell can spawn in compromising positions and really give you a bad day so I'd keep a bomb ready but I've yet to see a formation of bullets that was undodgeable.

[Zil]

I guess I'll once again link to a timeout I did of that nonspell. http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=17524

I can't say I've ever seen the yellow bullets screw me over or anything, but the leftovers from Sinkable Vortex can be a problem.

Hm PC-98 games aren't exactly my cup of tea, but perhaps PoDD might be an the exception. I'll give it a try!

It's very likely that it could be the exception. I'm not a huge fan of the other PC-98 games myself, but I'd say PoDD is one of the best games I've ever played, if not the absolute best. Do note however that recommending Ellen was kind of trollish on my part, but there's an important point I want to make (that I didn't feel like writing out before). Basically, you shouldn't avoid fast moving characters. Especially when dealing with fast bullets, high movement speed is a tremendous advantage, and not liking it is no excuse for not using 90fps to practice. It's something you should get used to, so that you can always take advantage of a character's speed whenever the opportunity presents itself.

[Karisa]

Hm PC-98 games aren't exactly my cup of tea, but perhaps PoDD might be an the exception. I'll give it a try!

Grouping the PC-98 games together? The first three are all pretty different, but LLS/MS have a lot in common with EoSD (which in my opinion plays more like LLS/MS than PCB/IN, if you go by the feel of the stages/patterns as opposed to the existence of stage practice, replays, etc). LLS is somewhat less polished, but I'd say MS is at least worth as much consideration as the early Windows games are.

[Tsym]

I tried playing PoDD this morning, but I ran into the same problem that I have with PoFV. My hands get sore very quickly when tapping the shoot button to shoot and not charge. I could only do a few stages before I could see my fire rate go down and my hand started to feel rather painful. Is there any way of not having to tap like a madman to shoot? Otherwise I absolutely can't play this. My hand will get wrecked within a few years at most.

Thanks to everyone for the advice on Murasa's non-card. I'll give Zil's timeout a watch when I can. I personally don't find the leftovers from Sinkable Vortex a problem because I generally have to bomb it in an actual run. It's not that hard, but I either tend to clip it at some point, or I get bad luck with Murasa's movements that make me even more likely to clip something.

Basically, you shouldn't avoid fast moving characters. Especially when dealing with fast bullets, high movement speed is a tremendous advantage, and not liking it is no excuse for not using 90fps to practice. It's something you should get used to, so that you can always take advantage of a character's speed whenever the opportunity presents itself.

It's not that I don't like fast movement speed, but stuff that requires any sort of rather tiny precision that isn't streaming or something like that just becomes far too aggravating for my liking. For example, I already have a tough time with Cloudy Way in Purple, and I already accidentally press a movement key for too long and crash into a bullet often enough. I don't think doing that at 90 fps with less precision would do wonders for my sanity. If there was a way to speed up the bullets without speeding up my movement speed, I'd be fine with it. I might try stage practicing instead of a full run with 90 fps. That might be somewhat useful... If getting accustomed to moving at 90 fps doesn't total my ability to move at 60 fps :V

Grouping the PC-98 games together? The first three are all pretty different, but LLS/MS have a lot in common with EoSD (which in my opinion plays more like LLS/MS than PCB/IN, if you go by the feel of the stages/patterns as opposed to the existence of stage practice, replays, etc). LLS is somewhat less polished, but I'd say MS is at least worth as much consideration as the early Windows games are.

I know for a fact that I can't stand LLS. The stages are far too long, and I basically get bored after a while and lose focus. I'm not sure about MS though. I think I tried it and found the early stages and bosses as less fun than those in EoSD (plus I always cracked up too hard at the super fast items after some point) and subsequently gave it up, but I'll try it again.

[redlakitu]

Grouping the PC-98 games together? The first three are all pretty different, but LLS/MS have a lot in common with EoSD (which in my opinion plays more like LLS/MS than PCB/IN, if you go by the feel of the stages/patterns as opposed to the existence of stage practice, replays, etc). LLS is somewhat less polished, but I'd say MS is at least worth as much consideration as the early Windows games are.

I'm inclined to slightly disagree about EoSD.  You're probably right about the stages, but in Mystic Square at least, most boss patterns are somewhat simpler and either aimed at the player, or very fast and based on reflexes (well, or both), while EoSD features quite a few slower but dense patterns. Oh, and much more meaningful and threatening midbosses. I think Yumeko and Sakuya illustrate this rather well - they're both knife-throwing maids, but their attacks are quite different in nature. Although I realize that Sara's similarity to Rumia goes a bit against what I said...

[Zil]

Is there any way of not having to tap like a madman to shoot? Otherwise I absolutely can't play this. My hand will get wrecked within a few years at most.

Ideally you shouldn't be shooting very much at all. You target the lead enemy and then let the rest chain together. Anything super healthy like fireballs and bosses can just be spammed with charge attacks. Otherwise I don't know what to tell you. I never found it to be much of a problem myself.

It's not that I don't like fast movement speed, but stuff that requires any sort of rather tiny precision that isn't streaming or something like that just becomes far too aggravating for my liking. For example, I already have a tough time with Cloudy Way in Purple, and I already accidentally press a movement key for too long and crash into a bullet often enough. I don't think doing that at 90 fps with less precision would do wonders for my sanity. If there was a way to speed up the bullets without speeding up my movement speed, I'd be fine with it. I might try stage practicing instead of a full run with 90 fps. That might be somewhat useful... If getting accustomed to moving at 90 fps doesn't total my ability to move at 60 fps :V

Well that's true. Attacks like that purple thing will pretty much need to be bombed. (Those attacks are pretty stupid to begin with in my opinion.) You kind of put up with that stuff to play the good parts. Byakuren's nonspells, for example, are very doable at 90fps. Most of the nonspells in UFO are very good at that speed, in fact. Further, don't worry about it hurting your control at 60fps. It should improve it dramatically. Just play 90fps for a while and you'll see what I mean. It's worth putting up with the stupid parts.


About EoSD and late PC-98, I'll agree with Karisa there. Not only is the scoring similar (simple, stage by stage, rather than everything snowballing as you go), but the patterns have similarities as well. Smooth stage sections. Bosses use lots of attacks that fire in quick waves, as opposed to continual barrages. More straightforward, non-gimmicky, and faster paced in general. It certainly has it's differences from the PC-98 games, but it's even more different from PCB, IN, and onward.

Of course, this post is full of my personal opinions at this point, so don't take it too seriously. (I think I said I'm "not a huge fan of the PC-98 games" earlier. I phrased that poorly. I do like them, much more than I like the Windows games, just not nearly as much as I like PoDD and PoFV.) Bleh. Opinions, blogging, etc.

[Byronyello]

Right, okay, how am I meant to do Guze Flash(on Hard, I'm not mad very experienced)? It's literally the only spell in the entire game ('cept for most Lunatic spells, Skyfish with Unknown Shape, Mamizou's last 4 spells, and the Overdrives) that I cannot consistently do.

[Tsym]

I take back everything I said about 90 FPS for UFO Lunatic only. I tried doing 90 FPS for a number of games, but the only one that really made me go "holy crap" was UFO. SA was a bit too gimmicky for my liking, and holy crap glowing bullets (OKUU!!!) do not do well at 90 FPS. But 90 FPS UFO was the first thing in a long while that made me go "holy crap. That's HARD. EVERYTHING IS HARD!" I haven't had that feeling since my first UFO Lunatic 1cc. Amazing. I think I'll definitely play around with it some more. I also went back into 60 fps after like 5 minutes of 90 fps, and everything felt like it was moving through molasses. Jeez.

Ideally you shouldn't be shooting very much at all. You target the lead enemy and then let the rest chain together. Anything super healthy like fireballs and bosses can just be spammed with charge attacks. Otherwise I don't know what to tell you. I never found it to be much of a problem myself.

Well then I've been playing those games wrong the entire time. I've always thought that the level 1 charge was completely useless. The fact that I've only really played as Reimu in PoFV doesn't help that notion, because her charges just fly all over the place... I think her PoDD one is nice though. I'll give it another go later.

And please please please post more of your personal opinions. The world would be a very, very boring place if no one took opinions about subjective things seriously (though not too seriously.)

Right, okay, how am I meant to do Guze Flash(on Hard, I'm not mad very experienced)? It's literally the only spell in the entire game ('cept for most Lunatic spells, Skyfish with Unknown Shape, Mamizou's last 4 spells, and the Overdrives) that I cannot consistently do.

It was my hardest spell to capture on Hard as well. I do it by always dodging to the right of the yellow tinged one. You'll need to make adjustments as the firing angle rotates though. Doesn't work as well on Lunatic as you need make more adjustments, but it should work well enough for Hard. If it's still giving you trouble, I'd suggest just moving on to Lunatic and coming back for it.

[Karisa]

About EoSD and late PC-98, I'll agree with Karisa there. Not only is the scoring similar (simple, stage by stage, rather than everything snowballing as you go), but the patterns have similarities as well. Smooth stage sections. Bosses use lots of attacks that fire in quick waves, as opposed to continual barrages. More straightforward, non-gimmicky, and faster paced in general. It certainly has it's differences from the PC-98 games, but it's even more different from PCB, IN, and onward.

Don't forget the rank system. It's another reason why there's more reflex-based dodging/bombing involved, since you can't necessarily memorize certain patterns as obvious captures or auto-bombs (as I've normally done in survival runs). The way MS and EoSD give you lower resources than later games (until TD, but that has trances) contributes to this as well.

Also, EoSD's spells and nonspells aren't as distinguished as they are in later games. The Cirno, Meiling, and Remilia battles in particular seem like they wouldn't be out of place in LLS or MS mostly as is (but with one large health bar, a spell background throughout the entire battle, etc). Combined with the way Flandre's nonspells are so boring (they seem like they were added after the main portion of the battle was created), I've concluded that much of EoSD was likely designed before the spell system was added. (The Sakuya battle is structured more like the later games though, with a clear distinction between spells that have time-stop and non-spells that don't. But then, Yumeko also has a sort of alternation between super-speed aimed sword phases and not-so-frantic other phases...)

And yet another way I find EoSD similar to the PC-98 games is that despite auto-collecting existing, after stage 2 (where it's more a reward for reaching full power sooner) the game doesn't seem designed around reaching the POC during stage portions without bombing. In contrast, PCB and IN stage portions seem designed to allow reaching the POC after most waves of enemies, MoF gives you enough bombs to bomb for items wherever you don't have a clear path, and SA and UFO have alternate auto-collecting methods.

[Zil]

Well then I've been playing those games wrong the entire time. I've always thought that the level 1 charge was completely useless.

In PoDD at least, the charge attack is extremely important, mainly because they have the quality of penetrating through everything. Most character's EX attacks in this game will block regular shots, and of course you'll never shoot your way through the big clusters of fireballs, so charge attacks are the most reliable way to get through that stuff, as well as protecting yourself from it. In Reimu's case, she has a high charge speed, and the charge attack covers the area right in front of her, which makes it excellent for shielding yourself from fireballs, especially since Reimu is often too slow to escape from under them. The drawback is that the amulets spread diagonally, so it's very hard to use on bosses. Even if you plant them on top of the boss, the damage is pretty low.

Actually, it's perhaps worth noting that the three top tier characters (Reimu, Rikako, and Yumemi) all have pretty clumsy charge attacks. The weaker character's charge attacks tend to be much easier to use, in my opinion.

I've concluded that much of EoSD was likely designed before the spell system was added.

That's an interesting idea. I think in Rumia's case you might say then that her first spell was actually an afterthought, stuck between what would have otherwise been two random attack phases. Also interesting is that Patchouli essentially doesn't use nonspells, and the two she has are almost identical.

[Karisa]

That's an interesting idea. I think in Rumia's case you might say then that her first spell was actually an afterthought, stuck between what would have otherwise been two random attack phases. Also interesting is that Patchouli essentially doesn't use nonspells, and the two she has are almost identical.

That sounds about right for Rumia. Especially since you get a glitched version of that first spell if you time out the nonspell on Easy, but that glitch doesn't occur if you time out, say, Meiling's second boss nonspell on Easy.

As for the midbosses, Daiyousei and Koakuma already fit the pattern of PC-98 midbosses, Rumia, Meiling, and stage 5 Sakuya seem like they'd fit as well if they were a generic character using only their nonspell, and stage 6 Sakuya already resembles a harder version of MS stage 2's midboss. Ex-Patchouli doesn't seem to fit, but it's possible there was some generic midboss first (the death fairy right before her, maybe? it's not like MS Extra's midboss has much health either) and she was added later.

I think someone should try to make a "PC-98" version of EoSD sometime. It'd have mostly the same patterns, but designed to look and sound like LLS/MS, without EoSD+ aspects of the series like spell cards, the POC, and character-specific bombs (though stage practice and replays can stay, they're convenient). I'd try to do it myself if I knew how.

[LadyScarlet]

ARGH

Why am I so bad at Remilia's opener!? I captured Eternal Meek, yet died TWICE to this attack! DX

[nintendonut888]

ARGH

Why am I so bad at Remilia's opener!? I captured Eternal Meek, yet died TWICE to this attack! DX

Remi's opener requires a lot of proactive dodging. The bubble bullets are designed to block off the openings and pin you down, so you have to realize immediately when this will happen, and then successively dodge up through the opening before it would normally reach you.

[Sakurei]

okay, I need help. not exactly with a spellcard or part of a stage, but with what to perfect next :V

as everyone here may know, I have done a bunch of stages, but I am uncertain which ones I should tackle next. I had a bunch in mind, but it came to nowhere. so yeah, you decide, if you care enough :V here's the list of what I could do.

Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Prismrivers, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Reimu, Reisen, Kaguya, Mokou, Satori, Orin, Kogasa, Shou, Byakuren, Marisa (I am working on it, but only 1 stage at a time is...eh?), Mamizou, Rika, Gengetsu, Pc-98 Alice.

or, perhaps some other pc-98 stage? I dunno. so yeah, give me some suggestions, please. so many to choose from, so little time to do them.

EDIT: oh yeah, is there any way to make the input lag for the pc-98 less....horrible? I die a lot due to it, so...something that alleviates that wold be a great help. is there anything like that? vpatch for the old games :V

[Nindella]

okay, I need help. not exactly with a spellcard or part of a stage, but with what to perfect next :V

as everyone here may know, I have done a bunch of stages, but I am uncertain which ones I should tackle next. I had a bunch in mind, but it came to nowhere. so yeah, you decide, if you care enough :V here's the list of what I could do.

Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Prismrivers, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Reimu, Reisen, Kaguya, Mokou, Satori, Orin, Kogasa, Shou, Byakuren, Marisa (I am working on it, but only 1 stage at a time is...eh?), Mamizou, Rika, Gengetsu, Pc-98 Alice.

or, perhaps some other pc-98 stage? I dunno. so yeah, give me some suggestions, please. so many to choose from, so little time to do them.

Reisen should be a piece of cake for you, go for it!  :3

[Zengeku]

You can never go wrong with Shou, Byakuren or Kogasa. Kogasa is not overly hard. You can do her. She wants you to.

[nintendonut888]

okay, I need help. not exactly with a spellcard or part of a stage, but with what to perfect next :V

as everyone here may know, I have done a bunch of stages, but I am uncertain which ones I should tackle next. I had a bunch in mind, but it came to nowhere. so yeah, you decide, if you care enough :V here's the list of what I could do.

Patchouli, Sakuya, Remilia, Prismrivers, Youmu, Yuyuko, Yukari, Reimu, Reisen, Kaguya, Mokou, Satori, Orin, Kogasa, Shou, Byakuren, Marisa (I am working on it, but only 1 stage at a time is...eh?), Mamizou, Rika, Gengetsu, Pc-98 Alice.

or, perhaps some other pc-98 stage? I dunno. so yeah, give me some suggestions, please. so many to choose from, so little time to do them.

EDIT: oh yeah, is there any way to make the input lag for the pc-98 less....horrible? I die a lot due to it, so...something that alleviates that wold be a great help. is there anything like that? vpatch for the old games :V

If you use Anex 86: Open the config menu from the emulator. Go to the "Video" tab, and click on Sync (it's set to Async by default). Set the Sync level to "1." Voila, you now have a lag-free PC-98 experience!

If you use T98-Next: lol dunno.

In return for this wonder tip (that should really be stickied somewhere because seriously this is very important information for PC-98 players), I request you give EX Alice a go.

[Sakurei]

alright, thanks for the suggestions, guys. kogasa's already done and I'll give both byakuren (the 2nd non, why ;_;) and shou a few try each day. Reisen will be done soon, I apparently suck so hard at mind stopper that this one's actually difficult. who said tei was the hardest thing in that stage ? :'D oh god, why. but I don't think it will take too long.

and OH GOD, MS RUNS SO SMOOTHLY! I think I can definitely do it like that. so yeah, I'll do Ex Alice along with these. And as a plus, I'll figure her out on my own; not watching a video or something. got halfway through the fight on my first attempt, so...first things first: get a clear out of her; then work for the perfect. with this, I have 5 stages to go, 4 of which will take a while, I suppose. again, thanks =)

[Tsym]

ARGH

Why am I so bad at Remilia's opener!? I captured Eternal Meek, yet died TWICE to this attack! DX

The key to Remi's opener is to always dodge between two solid white bullets. There should always be one of these openings somewhere. Just look for it. As long as you never assume you can fit past a bubble bullet (because trust me, you can't), you should be able to get through it no problem.

[Karisa]

Not really a help question, but I didn't think this was worth its own thread.

Which PoFV characters are the least likely to defeat each other in Lunatic match mode? I feel like leaving the game running sometime to see how high of a score can be reached in a legitimate replay, just for fun. I tried Cirno vs. Mystia but Cirno seemed to have a slight advantage (after around 70 minutes, Cirno had hit Mystia 6 times but was only hit once herself).

[Star King]

Not really a help question, but I didn't think this was worth its own thread.

Which PoFV characters are the least likely to defeat each other in Lunatic match mode? I feel like leaving the game running sometime to see how high of a score can be reached in a legitimate replay, just for fun. I tried Cirno vs. Mystia but Cirno seemed to have a slight advantage (after around 70 minutes, Cirno had hit Mystia 6 times but was only hit once herself).

Mystia, Reisen, and Tewi are good ones I think. Possibly Sakuya/Komachi/Lyrica? IIRC I had a Mystia vs Reisen fight last several hours with no hits before I has to close it to do something else.

For the purpose you're doing this, Reisen vs Reisen might be a good choice?

The ones I know can for sure hit others at least decently often are Aya, Medicine, Shiki, Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka, Lunasa, and sometimes Youmu/Cirno.

[I have no name]

How do I do Orin's 3rd card on lunatic?  I'm reasonably consistent at the entire rest of the fight.

[Sakurei]

orin's third should be needle hell or whatever it's called.

the rings are aimed at you, with a slightly off to the right. every shot is aimed at you - I have seen people who claim orin re-aims every second shot :V the small crap is random. so all you need to do is avoid the rings and dodge the small crap. that's all there is to. of course, doing can be quite difficult, due to the small crap making is difficult to escape from under the ring.
wait until she shoots the 2nd ring before moving, if you can. that way, you have to weave through the bullets less.