Spell Card Help Topic V: Cheeto Lasers Edition

[Cor]

Fun Fact: Good luck timing it out, it is 99 seconds, and if I am not wrong, doesn't reduce.

Longer than 99 secs, starts timing down eventually. At least that's how other spells work.

[Ran-Rii]

Well, at least I am right about the part where you have an easier time if you shotgun Eirin down to the ground.
But at least Hourai Elixir just involves you dodging through it for 99 seconds, and the patterns are relatively easier.

*But I have yet to figure out if that spell is meant for you to be pacifist and focus on dodging, or you can try to shoot for an easier time. Cause Eirin x Sakuya's life bar doesn't decrease. AT ALL [At least that is what I see.] or in very miniscule amounts.

[Nindella]

How do I do IN Stage 4B Marisa's second non-spell? I get trapped and clipped too much.
Also, for SA, are Yuugi's lasers somewhat static?

Yuugi's 2nd Midboss non-spell lasers are sorta static based on her position and should play the same if you're underneath her vertical line (I think the red wave is aimed straight at you, the blue is kinda iffy as to how it works, but a sizable side-step dodges it anyway).

Yuugi's 2nd Boss non-spell lasers are all completely static based on her position.  If you don't shoot, you can even get into the same safespot during the red lasers and completely milk it for graze (scoring stuff), might wanna check a WR or something for that as it's quite interesting.

Another tip for Yuugi's 2nd Boss non-spell is that the red lasers appear to lose their hitbox quite early (I think when they start shrinking?) so if you're trapped by the reds and see a wall of on-coming blue-lasers, you can try to quickly move out of the red-lasers when they start despawning just before the blues reach you, to avoid doing any very tight dodges.

Hope that was explained well.... hmm  :ohdear:

Naturally, practice helps alot since it's almost a memorisable thing and not really something based on dodging prowess.  Good luck!

[El]

Hi. I would like to get any help available for timing out Red Oni Blue Oni in the PCB extra stage. PCB extra is probably my favorite stage of all the games and i'd ultimately like to do a pacifist no-deaths no-bombs deal for the entire stage but I am getting caught up on Red Oni Blue Oni every single time. I have no problem at all with it normally (I usually end the card after the second set of orbs go out, sometimes during the third and capture it constantly during normal runs) but timing it out they start to come out faster and faster until I am completely swarmed.

Here are two of my own replays for reference:
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25085
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25086

When I did a youtube and google search for "Red Oni Blue Oni timeout" to see if I could get any references the closest I could find was this video of someone timing out every one of Chen's cards except Red Oni Blue Oni xP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tXiJkuakaQ When I look for extra stage pacifist runs I tend to see "Ran only" or "shooting during stage allowed" so I have not been able to find any videos or replays of someone else doing it yet.

Any tips / help is appreciated, thank you =)

- Elu

[Goldom]

But at least Hourai Elixir just involves you dodging through it for 99 seconds, and the patterns are relatively easier.

An interesting note: Hourai Elixir actually lasts 130 seconds, because the last 20 or so go in slow motion. As such, it almost exactly matches the combined time of all Kaguya's finals, which last 128 seconds. (Both by my timings - so it's close enough that they may be exactly the same).

[Ran-Rii]

An interesting note: Hourai Elixir actually lasts 130 seconds, because the last 20 or so go in slow motion. As such, it almost exactly matches the combined time of all Kaguya's finals, which last 128 seconds. (Both by my timings - so it's close enough that they may be exactly the same).

At least it is in slow motion. Doesn't make it easier though, but I guess it is cold comfort in knowing that the timer is actually ticking down the first few parts of the spellcard, when you can still afford to look.

[Oh]

Hi. I would like to get any help available for timing out Red Oni Blue Oni in the PCB extra stage.

I heard it gets faster. But all it means is that you have to restream more rigorously. (ie. change directions every 1 or 2 waves)

[Sungho]

Which team is the easiest to beat th08 Lunatic with?

[Ran-Rii]

Which team is the easiest to beat th08 Lunatic with?

The top tier choices are forever Reimu [small hitbox] or Marisa [power to the Malice Cannon], but if you like shotgunning I suppose you can go Ghost team and get away with...
WAIT. This is a spellcard help section...

[I have no name]

Which team is the easiest to beat th08 Lunatic with?

Border Team is the most stable but Ghost Team has Yuyuko's spread for stages and Youmu's shot for bosses-if you can use it.  Magic Team has the Malice Cannon and Scarlet Team can trivialize with memorization.

If you can control Youmu's shot then Ghost Team.
If you can handle the stages and can Malice Cannon effectively then Magic team.
If neither of the above, Border Team.

The top tier choices are forever Reimu [small hitbox] or Marisa [power to the Malice Cannon], but if you like shotgunning I suppose you can go Ghost team and get away with...
WAIT. This is a spellcard help section...

Spellcard help is a misnomer.  ANY help fits here.

Ghost is horrendous.

This person is a blasphemer who never bothered to use them right.

[Zil]

Which team is the easiest to beat th08 Lunatic with?

Border Team please. Ghost is horrendous. Magic is passable but worse in almost every way. Similar deal for Scarlet.

[Seppo Hovi]

I have not been able to find any videos or replays of someone else doing it yet.

Here you go. For strategic help, all I can give is stream and turn everytime she stops shooting for a milliseconds which allows you to make a dash and create a gap for restreaming. Also get lucky with the RNG, that's how my "one lucky shot" did it. I'll watch your replays later and see what you did.

Oh, going for the full stage, enjoy Charming Dicknipples from all sides. Good luck.

I'll be contacting someone who is more consistent with timing it down and seeing if they can help you, I can't give you anything but that one replay, which hardly is a help.

This person is a blasphemer who never bothered to use them right.

Controlling Youmu for correct familiar-timings is a hell, even for the simplest cancels to make your survival easier. Also she's fast as fuck, so I assume you'll enjoy dodging shit like Kaguya's first card or Marisa's first card without focusing. Or anything that requires really exact and little movements. Obviously, ghost team is a bad pick for player who wishes to clear the game for the first time.

I'd go with border team and bomb everything relatively threatening. That's how I do with every game and it's bad advice, but it'll get you a clear.

[Karisa]

If you want to use Youmu's shot for the power, go with solo Youmu, not ghost team. That way you actually keep the power when focused, at the cost of familiars always being solid, meaning they won't just safely pass through you when focused (becomes an issue for a few of Marisa's patterns). Yuyuko's spread is completely unnecessary; Youmu's shot actually gets very good stage coverage once you learn how to aim with it.

Still probably not the best shot type to go for a first 1cc on a given difficulty with. Border Team is much easier to use for survival, with the long deathbomb interval, homing/lock-on making aiming issues near-nonexistent, etc.

[Tsym]

Hi. I would like to get any help available for timing out Red Oni Blue Oni in the PCB extra stage. PCB extra is probably my favorite stage of all the games and i'd ultimately like to do a pacifist no-deaths no-bombs deal for the entire stage but I am getting caught up on Red Oni Blue Oni every single time. I have no problem at all with it normally (I usually end the card after the second set of orbs go out, sometimes during the third and capture it constantly during normal runs) but timing it out they start to come out faster and faster until I am completely swarmed.

Here are two of my own replays for reference:
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25085
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25086

When I did a youtube and google search for "Red Oni Blue Oni timeout" to see if I could get any references the closest I could find was this video of someone timing out every one of Chen's cards except Red Oni Blue Oni xP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tXiJkuakaQ When I look for extra stage pacifist runs I tend to see "Ran only" or "shooting during stage allowed" so I have not been able to find any videos or replays of someone else doing it yet.

Any tips / help is appreciated, thank you =)

- Elu

Watched your replays real quick, and the problem I'm seeing is that you don't have the timing for restreaming the waves down properly. Instead you're getting trapped by the remnants of the previous wave and the wave coming at you, and dying because of it. If you're timing it out, I don't see any reason to start from the top of the screen and go down. It might be more comfortable to get into the rhythm required by starting at the bottom left/right and moving in the opposite direction. But really though, it's more of a timing issue than anything else. I believe there are audio cues as to when the bullets fire, so you should definitely use those to judge your movements. Good luck!

[I have no name]

Controlling Youmu for correct familiar-timings is a hell, even for the simplest cancels to make your survival easier. Also she's fast as fuck, so I assume you'll enjoy dodging shit like Kaguya's first card or Marisa's first card without focusing. Or anything that requires really exact and little movements. Obviously, ghost team is a bad pick for player who wishes to clear the game for the first time.

I said they were a good choice if you could use Youmu's shot effectively, and by that I mean switch to focused dodge bullets then unfocus, aiming all shots straight up.

Karisa, I find Youmu solo a much less stable shot type because there are times you want the familiar piercing, and a few cards become hellish with a solo human (namely Event Horizon)

[adrian7]

It's my latest try of MoF Hard, it went pretty nice until I got to deal with Sanae's last spell (which I've captured with no power in the previous run :/ ) and Kanako's nospells, which went just terrible. Could you please take a look at it and give me some advice? Also, be prepared for lots of preventive bombs during stages.
Thanks in advance 
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25111
By the way, does Momiji look a bit easier here than on Normal, or is it only me?

[Reiko]

It's my latest try of MoF Hard, it went pretty nice until I got to deal with Sanae's last spell (which I've captured with no power in the previous run :/ ) and Kanako's nospells, which went just terrible. Could you please take a look at it and give me some advice? Also, be prepared for lots of preventive bombs during stages.

Some advice then (I only watched stage 5-6).
Stage 5 : you should try to bomb less the stage portion, in order to get to the boss with full power. Kill the big fairy before boss Sanae quickly, so you don't have to bomb the last waves. I usually bomb nearly everything Sanae has, so I won't be able to help here. Only obvious advice would be : don't die when you have bombs left.
Stage 6 : a large part of the stage portion is streaming (the blue-circles bullets are aimed at you, so just stand still and stream slowly), you could save lots of power with just a bit of practice.
About Kanako's nonspells :
1st one is really hard, maybe one of the hardest thing she has imo. If you are at full power, one bomb should be enough, even with ReimuA.
2nd one : stay under her, just a bit above the bottom of the screen. Then move just a bit to dodge each wave (left-right-left-right...). A bit tricky at first, since it will become hell if you move too much.
3rd one : don't know, I bomb it. There isn't any real trick here I guess.
4th one : Bubbles part : go to one side of the screen, then stream slowly. Try to end under her if you can. Knives part : same as bubbles, just be more careful. Bullet-lines part : no real trick, just learn to read it (and trust your hitbox).

If you're getting to Sanae with 6 extra lives like you did on the replay, you should be able to clear it by bombing everything threatening. Don't be afraid to continue-spam stage 6 when you get there, it will give you the practice you need.
Good luck

I have a bad replay of myself here if you want, mainly to illustrate Kanako's second non since everything else was awful.

By the way, does Momiji look a bit easier here than on Normal, or is it only me?

Yeah, I had the same feeling.

[Zil]

I said they were a good choice if you could use Youmu's shot effectively, and by that I mean switch to focused dodge bullets then unfocus, aiming all shots straight up.

As if the bullets leave huge moments of empty space during the middle of the spell? What's the point of the damage output if you're continually switching back to Yuyuko? There is no advantage to it. If you're some kind of superplayer, then maybe you can consistently dodge all of the attacks with Youmu's movement speed, while staying directly under the boss the whole time, okay. But were not talking about superplayers, and the ability to end a spell a couple seconds faster is pointless when you're making the whole thing twice as difficult in the process. The notion that that would be better than Yukari's very high damage output (with auto-targeting, slow speed, and small hitbox thrown in for the lulz) is completely absurd. Youmu is extremely hard to use compared to anyone else, and Yuyuko brings nothing to the table other than slow movement to correct Youmu's glaring weakness.

I agree with Karisa that if for some reason you really want to use Youmu, you're better of without Yuyuko, but anyone going for a first clear should use the Border Team anyway.

Your recommendations here bug me because someone was legitimately asking for the the team that gets the easiest Lunatic 1cc, and you gave him the opposite of good advice.

[Sungho]

I think I have no name meant pressing focus even briefly resets Youmu's shots' direction to shooting straight up.
But what are the reasons for th08 Lunatic being the easiest? How is it different from th07 Lunatic or th10 Lunatic?

[I have no name]

Your recommendations here bug me because someone was legitimately asking for the the team that gets the easiest Lunatic 1cc, and you gave him the opposite of good advice.

I cleared IN Lunatic with Ghost Team first.  I gave a disclaimer that unless you're good with Youmu's shot it's not worth it.  I don't see how that isn't good advice, speaking from my experiences.  Note that I did suggest Border Team as a generic pick but went on to give other options if the player is good at other things.

I think I have no name meant pressing focus even briefly resets Youmu's shots' direction to shooting straight up.
But what are the reasons for th08 Lunatic being the easiest? How is it different from th07 Lunatic or th10 Lunatic?

IN lunatic throws bombs at you, coupled with the deathbomb mechanic makes it easier to avoid dying.  PCB throws lives at you and the border mechanic makes it about as easy as IN to clear.  MoF is not too hard (IMO) with liberal use of bombs outside of the wall for a new players that is Virtue of Wind God.

[RNG]

Satori as Reimu B. What to do with Deep Mist Labyrinth?

[Zengeku]

Should be a fairly simple card for you. Satori is constantly chasing you around (duh) so you'll have to move quickly to escape her. You just have to quickly read the bullets as you move. There isn't much time to stop to analyze the situation.

With a bit more practice you should be able to nail this one without issues RNG.

[Tsym]

Satori as Reimu B. What to do with Deep Mist Labyrinth?

Well for me at least, I bombed the hell out of it. Lead it around the screen a few times, then bomb once and sit on top of Satori. For me at least, it was way too easy to clip/run into bullets. I'm terrible at dodging through tiny moving gaps.

Otherwise, what you want to do is get a feel for how Satori moves. She moves in bursts, and doesn't do tight turns well, meaning that she'll do this arcing motion when you redirect her. A little bit of a problem if she overshoots you or something. The bullets left on screen last for roughly 2 to 3 of Satori's up and down motions. Meaning that if you lead Satori down the middle, then up a side, then down the middle, then up the other side, then down the middle again, then repeat, you'll be dealing with somewhere between 1.25 to 1.5 times the amount of bullets that Satori leaves when she goes through the middle of the screen once. I thought it was best to avoid that situation, so I divided the screen into fourths. For ease of explaining, number them from 1 to 4, left to right. When she starts, lead her down the middle, up 1, down 2, up 4, down 3, and repeat. Because Satori tends to overshoot you when you make her turn, I reasoned that her overshooting would make her run into the middle a bit more, so I avoided going through the middle except on the bottom of the screen, because Satori tends to move off the screen a bit when chasing you down there as you're sticking relatively close the bottom.

That was the best idea I could come up, but there are probably better ways of tackling it. I never managed a single capture in 30 runs, but I'm a terrible player, so you'll probably get more mileage out of that strategy than I did. At the very least I could survive for 1.5 of those loops so I only needed to use 1 bomb :V

[Zetzumarshen]

Red Oni Blue Oni related

I'll be contacting someone who is more consistent with timing it down and seeing if they can help you, I can't give you anything but that one replay, which hardly is a help.

Not as consistent as anyone would like to be, a gross overestimation of myself. But I made a couple of Red Oni Blue Oni timeout out of tens of tries.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20195246/cap/PCB/Replay.rar
These replays are awful and inconclusive, though someone might see helpful cues from those, not me though. Besides, I really want to wave my e-peen around.

Notes :
I don't feel I was doing it right while making udRBO1 and udRBO2. No one should do it this way.
I screw up a lot during <10 timer mark while using udRBO3, udRBO4, and udRBO5 technique. Overall I feel those misses shouldn't have happened, and pretty confident it's the best way to handle it.

(Probably) Helpful facts :
The first three or four aimed red-blue waves are fired with slowest interval. I did it vertically for some other reason that isn't realted to timing out in mind.
Starting at eight or ninth waves, bullets are fired with quickest interval. Around 20 seconds left. You can try bruteforce your way out if you're comfortable with the waves after 20 seconds mark.

Tips :
Try to dodge things with horizontally in priority.
Hug the bottom edge of the screen.
Obviously don't stream the next wave in the same direction with the previous wave.
Maybe Sakuya would help with her faster focused movement, or I'm too used to her speed and having a bias. Mostlikely the latter.

[El]

Thank you for all the help and advice with Red Oni Blue Oni timeout, I watched the replay Vee posted (I will check Zetzumarshen's out when I get some time tomorrow) and with a little rethinking how I approach it (and the free time to make some more shots) I think I can get it down now.

And yes I have noticed that Charming Siege is 50-50, sometimes I will time it out with 0 problems whatsoever and sometimes I feel like I am just being trapped, well, from all sides : P but I have timed it and most of Ran's other stuff out including Izuna Gongen (which I thought was going to be much tougher than it really was.)

[ARF]

I managed to pull off the safespot on Suwako's second spell card. I guess it might help someone struggling with the spell normally (probably not though).

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25158

[Ridley 64]

So I got to Stage 4 with SanaeB for the first time and managed to continue-spam to Stage 6.  I'm still not sure how to consistently do Stage 2 or the wall-fairies in Stage 3.  Those were the main reasons I hadn't used SanaeB much before now, and they continue to be problematic with her lower power.  Anything I might be missing?

[Tsym]

Can anyone give a quick look through this run (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25359) of UFO Lunatic SanaeA and see where I can improve? At this point I'm not sure if I'm doing most of the stuff right and the reason why I can't seem to get to Byakuren is due to my mistakes or if I'm doing stuff just plain wrong and my mistakes make this thing 20x harder than it should be. Also, is there any way of practicing faster danmaku without turning up the FPS to 90? I've tried 90 FPS before, but I really can't get used to/just plain hate/am annoyed at just how fast my character moves. It's just so weird for me. Non-Touhou is fine too, as long as it's runnable on a laptop with an integrated graphics card.

So I got to Stage 4 with SanaeB for the first time and managed to continue-spam to Stage 6.  I'm still not sure how to consistently do Stage 2 or the wall-fairies in Stage 3.  Those were the main reasons I hadn't used SanaeB much before now, and they continue to be problematic with her lower power.  Anything I might be missing?

I have a good stage 2 in my 1cc (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25360). I used a red-green route, but a red-red works too. You just have less UFO token clutter on the screen after your first summon. Stage 3 is slightly trickier. I have a (somewhat poor) example run here (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25361). I assure you that my deaths during Ichirin midboss were (mostly) intentional; they were intended to get me down to 1 power to show that the part after her can be done with 1 power, so you can definitely do it with more power. I wanted to demonstrate a decent circling bit for the end portion of stage 3 as well, but I messed up so whatever. And you're not missing anything else for SanaeB. Past stage 3, she has clear waters thanks to her spread and her insanely powerful bomb.

[Zil]

Also, is there any way of practicing faster danmaku without turning up the FPS to 90? I've tried 90 FPS before, but I really can't get used to/just plain hate/am annoyed at just how fast my character moves. It's just so weird for me.

PoDD. Ellen has some seductively slow movement if that's what you're into. And all of the bullets are fast of course.

[Cor]

Can anyone give a quick look through this run (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25359) of UFO Lunatic SanaeA and see where I can improve? At this point I'm not sure if I'm doing most of the stuff right and the reason why I can't seem to get to Byakuren is due to my mistakes or if I'm doing stuff just plain wrong and my mistakes make this thing 20x harder than it should be.

You should use the safespot for Kogasa's first two attacks, besides that it looks like you have an idea of what you're doing, you just make a lot of mistakes. Your stage 5 was pretty bad, though.