Author Topic: Touhou difficulty intervals  (Read 38564 times)

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2012, 04:57:06 AM »
PCB ReimuA - Timeout every spellcard. It's the only shot type I could be bothered to clear PCB with.

Same goes for IN Sakuya. Seriously, why do Sakuya and Alice Solo both have to suck so much?  :(

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2012, 05:02:02 AM »
Alice solo is pretty damn powerful for Extra according to what I heard. Something about killing Hourai Doll extremely fast.

Shot analysis thread did rank Sakuya as weak, so I don't disagree there.

Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2012, 05:10:34 AM »
Alice's laser can hit the familiars with the malice cannon, though she has to be paired with Marisa. At least, I've never heard of her doing anything special on her own.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2012, 05:16:05 AM »
Yukari and Remilia, with both of their familiars attacking simultaneously, outdamage Alice. Although there's no need to shotgun with Alice, her range is abysmal compared to the other youkai shots.

Yeah, she's only effective with Marisa.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2012, 05:16:48 AM »
Alice's laser can hit the familiars with the malice cannon, though she has to be paired with Marisa. At least, I've never heard of her doing anything special on her own.
Mokou's wing familiar is also hit by Alice, dealing 1.5x her normal damage whenever the wings are out (almost all spells and some of the nonspells)

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2012, 05:23:51 AM »
Heh, if I could find a way to keep the rank down in EoSD I'd be all over it. On Lunatic it's pretty much "if you die, we'll make the next three spells a bit easier." It's not a decision at all, unless you're bent on capturing a certain spell and kill yourself right beforehand, but that's all kinds of crazy.You are comparing her to the wrong shot type. Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

- timeout spells that seem less risky to do so
- try to avoid being in full power mode for as long as you can
- deathbombing is good if you have good enough timing
- don't try to play for score, don't lose your focus (1cc) -- I avoided point items (until when lives were low and I didn't bother to memo the score-based extend marks) to remind myself to deviate from my tendency of trying to play for score (which gets me killed invariably)

other thoughts on my "flight plan" (not related to rank control) were:
- bomb the clippier patterns (because I didn't bother and still don't bother to try to memorize the player/bullet hitboxes -- I still overestimate them and underestimate them, and my memory has proven, to me at least, to be chronically unreliable)
- bomb stage 5 midboss Sakuya if you need to, don't try to kill her at the center of the screen :(  (she seems to take the most damage at the sides of the screen)
- play until you bring enough resources to stages 5 and 6, 1cc the game (by bombing Sakuya's huge-looking green knives and occasionally bombing the patterns from Remilia that you happen to not remember at the time, and maybe bombing the streams of large bubbles during her bat transformation nonspell.. because I can't remember bullet hitboxes lol)
- MarisaB has powerful bombs that will aid you through most of the spellcards/nonspells (since Remilia has bomb invincibility in latter patterns), and a good laser too.
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How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2012, 06:18:57 AM »
If the information on the wiki is correct, as well as my conclusions from my own experiments, timing out spells will not reduce rank. The wiki also suggests that no matter what you do, the rank increase from grazing is going to dwarf whatever negative factors you can try to utilize. You would have to let two items drop for every single bullet you graze just to keep the rank the same, and that's ignoring the steady increase which it gets by default. And despite what appears to be a common misconception, deathbombing does not have the same effect as dying. As far as I can tell, and according to the wiki, it is the same as a normal bomb, that is to say, any effect on rank is imperceptible and instantly undone by unavoidable grazing. I've spent four bombs in immediate succession against Patchy and still seen no change in rank. The only real way to reduce it is to die, and then it's back up to max in seconds.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 06:23:45 AM by Zil »

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2012, 04:21:39 AM »
I thought capturing spells (not sure about nonspells) made rank angrier, like being in full power mode did? iirc, timing out some patterns made the latter ones less dificult.. and I didn't pay much attention to grazing, at least no more than avoiding the point items, and power items (both the 128 power mark and the surplus power items) unless I needed the extend (at 60 million, not sure though). (shameless plug because I'm not in the mood to try to learn/play EoSD again :p)

Looking at some revisions on the rank section on EoSD's wiki, we have..

[quote http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Gameplay&oldid=41636]18:01, 24 September 2006 J Lau (Talk | contribs) (15,344 bytes) (→Rank)

There exists a rank system in this game. As rank increases, enemy bullets will generally become faster and more plentiful. This effect that rank has in this game is most prominent with boss attacks, where the bullet difference between minimum and maximum rank can differ by a factor of 4 or more.

The longer you stay alive, the higher the rank will increase, until it reaches the maximum for that stage. Dying decreases rank by a fair amount. Bombing affects rank in a few select spell cards, e.g. Water Elf. [/quote]

[quote http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Gameplay&oldid=41638]01:01, 11 March 2007 Veracity (Talk | contribs) m (16,201 bytes) (→Rank)

There exists a rank system in this game. As rank increases, enemy bullets will generally become faster and more plentiful. This effect that rank has in this game is most prominent with boss attacks, where the bullet count difference between minimum and maximum rank can differ by a factor of 4 or more, and bullet movement speeds can double. Note that the game does not display the numerical value of rank at any point - under most circumstances, it can be estimated only by observing bullet pattern behaviour.

Rank ranges from zero to thirty-two, and is reset to sixteen at the beginning of each stage. It increases gradually with survival time, and jumps up noticeably on defeating spell cards, until it reaches the cap of thirty-two, corresponding to the highest variable difficulty. The rank value is decreased by sixteen whenever the player is hit. This means that, for the most part, the only way to reduce the variable difficulty is to die. Since the rank drop occurs on a hit, not a death, it is theoretically possible, through counter-bombing (see Lives, above), to reduce the value by sixteen without the loss of a life. Since the game's allowed counter-bomb interval is so short, though, it is not possible in practice to do so deliberately.

Bombing affects rank in a few select spell cards, e.g. Water Elf. [/quote]

and the most recent version,

[quote http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Gameplay&oldid=227646]18:40, 28 October 2011 ThibG (Talk | contribs) (17,599 bytes) (→Rank: Fixed a few misconceptions, based on observation of the memory during gameplay, as well as using a debugger)

There exists a rank system in this game. As rank increases, enemy bullets will generally become faster and more plentiful. This effect that rank has in this game is most prominent with boss attacks, where the bullet count difference between minimum and maximum rank can differ by a factor of 4 or more, and bullet movement speeds can double. Note that the game does not display the numerical value of rank at any point - under most circumstances, it can be estimated only by observing bullet pattern behaviour.

Rank ranges from ten to thirty-two (from twelve to twenty in easy), and is set to sixteen at the beginning of the game. It increases gradually with survival time (+1 every ~32 seconds), item collection (from +0 to +2 depending on the item type), grazing (+0.06) and gaining an extra life through score (+0.02), until it reaches the cap of thirty-two, corresponding to the highest variable difficulty. The rank value is decreased by sixteen whenever the player is hit, by two when the player uses a bomb, and by 0.03 when an item disappears through the bottom of the screen. [/quote]

maybe, based on this, some things need to be analyzed:
- if capturing spells/nonspells make the rank angrier
- if being in full power or collecting point items while in full power or collecting point items while they've reached their maximum value (51200 iirc) makes rank angrier
- if rank is maintained across stages
- if rank is decreased on hit, not on death (or vice-versa)
- if score or number of lives/bombs affects rank
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2012, 04:44:30 AM »
Whoa, no more grazing Demarcation for me. I also die a little on the inside when items drop out, so I guess I'm screwed :V


Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2012, 04:56:52 AM »
Since it (presumably) resets at the beginning of each stage there is no risk in grazing Demarcation. Grazing Daiyousei is another thing, but I don't think it matters much. If you don't die, you hit max rank pretty soon.

I would like to know precisely how it works though. So far I can only be sure that the things I've tried (timing out attacks, dropping items, and deathbombing) seem to have no effect, at least on Lunatic. Rank may work differently on different difficulties.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #100 on: March 18, 2012, 07:07:22 AM »
Meh  I'm newish, But if most of them are as hard as EoSD, I'l be occupied for a LOOOOONGGGG time. I still can't get past patchoulli on EASY DX :blush: :o :]

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2012, 01:08:53 AM »
Hmm... okay. So the deathbombing does work to reduce the rank. ALthough... does it reduce it by 16 from the hit AND 2 from the bomb? Or just 16 from the hit?

Does the rank's effect on attacks count into the decimal places as well? Or just the integer, but there exists decimals still?

Hmm... well, this just makes scoring all the more tough. If only rank also had some sort of effect on score multipliers... :\ But then scores would be insanely higher too xD

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2012, 02:27:37 AM »
Neither. Just from a bit of screwing around...
- You start at 16 rank
- You cannot go below 10 rank nor above 32 (In Extra mode, min is 14 and max is 18)
- Bombing (incl. deathbomb) drops 2
- Extend raises 2
- Dying drops 16
- Grazing increases rank
- Getting point items at max value increases rank
- Rank slowly increases during stage

- Capturing cards does not increase rank
- Killing enemies does not
- Hitting the boss does not
- Collecting power does not (incl getting full)
- Collecting items below PoC does not

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« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 02:32:54 AM by Drake »

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Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #103 on: March 19, 2012, 02:54:21 AM »
And despite what appears to be a common misconception, deathbombing does not have the same effect as dying. As far as I can tell, and according to the wiki, it is the same as a normal bomb
Why does nobody believe me when I say this? Thank you Drake, for figuring all of that out.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #104 on: March 19, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »
I find it astonishing that anyone believed otherwise.
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #105 on: March 19, 2012, 10:25:46 PM »
Maybe it's the fact that EoSD will tally deathbombs under "miss" on the result screen.


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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #106 on: March 30, 2012, 09:30:37 PM »
Maybe it's the fact that EoSD will tally deathbombs under "miss" on the result screen.
EoSD deathbombing? I always thought you couldn't deathbomb in TH7 and under, including PC-98

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #107 on: March 30, 2012, 09:31:40 PM »
EoSD deathbombing? I always thought you couldn't deathbomb in TH7 and under, including PC-98

You can definitely deathbomb in EoSD and PCB. Just run into a bullet while pressing X. If you hear the picchun~ and bombed, you did it

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #108 on: March 30, 2012, 09:32:28 PM »
But I deathbomb all the time in both 7 and 6 >:I

It's just that the window is Quite Fucking Small in 6.

In fact, the character screen refers to Reimu's deathbomb window being larger in PCB.

So ???


Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2012, 09:53:33 PM »
lol yeah. Reimu gives you a ton of time to deathbomb in PCB. It can be done in some PC-98 games as well. MS for sure, and probably LLS.

If you thought you couldn't bomb in PCB... IN has probably been spoiling you.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #110 on: March 31, 2012, 07:18:09 AM »
According to the wiki you get 0.25 seconds to bomb with Reimu. I'm pretty shocked to find out of this. That means you can probably deathbomb based entirely on reflexes.

Really though Zil, all death-bombing spoils you. Death-bombing is a forgiving way to say, 'you are too slow, but i'll let you bomb anyway'  :V

Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #111 on: March 31, 2012, 08:37:10 AM »
True enough. It was annoying to find myself bombing too late in other games, for sure. In particular SoEW, where even bombing a bit before you get hit is too slow. :derp:

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #112 on: March 31, 2012, 09:16:07 AM »
Eh, I'm pretty easy to please regarding difficulty settings in games as long as there's at least 1 setting that's reasonably challenging. I do enjoy a really hard game sure, but I'd rather have one that's hard just because it's hard, than one that's hard but is less hard after memorization. EVERY game becomes easier after a certain level of memorization, but I think some games have their difficulty depend on it more. R-Type for example, often isn't very hard at all once you memorize what to do, but is seemingly impossible before you do. EoSD IMO had a great deal of spellcards, that even if you knew exactly how they worked, weren't any easier (most of patchy's spellcards, scarlet gensokyo, etc). IN on the other hand, really seemed to be all about learning each spellcard's "trick", that, once used, made them more tame than the equivilent ones in the series.

Scoring on Touhou is often all about memorization, which is probably very normal for shmups in general, but that's also why I'm not a big fan of it... like you NEED to know about that big gap in enemies for MoF so you can let the ones before live as long as possible so you don't lose all your faith. Or you NEED to know that you can't hope to get certain colour combinations of UFOs in certain points in UFO. I really hate that, but understand it's what some people like too. It's just not my cup of tea is all.

But yeah, as long as the game has at least one setting that is still considered the equivalent "nintendo hard" on TVtropes AFTER you memorize it, I'll be happy...

As for deathbombing in PCB and EoSD. I do it more often than regular bombs...Not out of reflex of course (though sometimes I swear I do..sometimes...if I count on it I'll fail hard though). When I was a Touhou noob, I was a good boy and I made sure I never counted on deathbombing. But now my bombing habits went down the tubes thanks to exceed, Phantasm romance, and Reimu generally being the superior choice in every Touhou game for the last while. It's kinda sad really, I did my first EoSD lunatic 1cc way back without relying on deathbombing, and PCB, but after that....it's really a hard habit to break. I mean I know intellectually it's bad, but now my gut reflexes say "I think I'm safe" when I'm really not..argh....Basically, now I pretty much never bomb when I think I'm in trouble (cuz I never do, derp). But rather, I'll be playing, and if I somehow "sense" that I'm about to make a mistake (kinda like you make a typo, and you hit the delete key before you even SEE the letter, you KNOW you made the typo), I mash bomb... 90% of the time it's a deathbomb. This sounds good and all, but it still isn't.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 09:21:25 AM by Ghaleon »

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #113 on: March 31, 2012, 01:59:12 PM »
According to the wiki you get 0.25 seconds to bomb with Reimu. I'm pretty shocked to find out of this. That means you can probably deathbomb based entirely on reflexes.

Why haven't I 1cc'd Lunatic yet if I can do this?
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #114 on: March 31, 2012, 02:22:42 PM »
Your reflexes must be rather fail, then :trollface:

Last I checked standard human reaction time was within half of that :derp:

/spitefulness


Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #115 on: March 31, 2012, 06:25:03 PM »
Why haven't I 1cc'd Lunatic yet if I can do this?

Because you aren't properly utilizing your resources. PCB doesn't really require you to dodge much to 1cc it because of the Cherry border system. I'm sure you could do it if you focused your efforts on it.

Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2012, 07:58:07 PM »
I like how so many people find the Ultra patch makes the game easier just because of the autobombs.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2012, 08:05:57 PM »
Autobombs do have the capacity to increase your number of collisions from 15 or 18 to 40, 50, or more >_>

If I gave the original Lunacy Star autobombs you'd get over 90 hits before dying >_>
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2012, 08:44:13 PM »
I like how so many people find the Ultra patch makes the game easier just because of the autobombs.
this is probably why we've seen a huge influx of people playing ultra normal and ultra hard and such instead of actually going for lunatic
from now on i think i'll mostly ignore non-lunatic ultra clears if they're with autobomb lol

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