Touhou difficulty intervals

[Tengukami]

EDIT: Thank you Ammy.
Guys, Ammy plays on Easy and Normal, last time I checked. Just by the way.

Yes, that's right. Every now and then, when I'm feeling suicidal, I'll fire up a game on Lunatic just to be like "oh, what the hell?" and laugh my ass off as I get steamrolled before the Stage 1 midboss. But that's still nothing compared to the first time I 1cc'd MoF on Easy, using Reimu A. I was so happy to finally beat VoWG, to hear that final explosion and see the screen turn white ... only to be told "try playing on Normal next time, bad end lol".

But hey, no hard feelings, ZUN.

Funny enough, for someone like me who doesn't play above Normal, I still go wild on StB and DS. Maybe because it's nothing but spell cards, that you try over and over until you clear them. The camera games have no difficulty settings, perhaps for good reason, but I think the structure of the camera games lends itself to the meth-like addiction of these games.

"OK, I'm going to take 10 more tries on this spellcard, and if I don't clear it by then, I'm going to bed."

~Three hours later...~

"AAAAAAAAHHHH KEINE I hate you you stupid cow! OK, just ten more tries ...!"

Lather, rinse, repeat. Still can't get enough of those camera games.

[Byaaakuren]

I don't see why people are talking about Easy mode players as if they're the plague. I occasionally play Easy mode when I feel like breaking my current score (I'd like to break my 2.3 billion in IN Easy with Youmu). I used to play Normal to clear it but now I play it for the same reason I play Easy. I think Easy should remain as it is, a way for newer players to get the hang of the games without discouraging them too much for not getting far.

"OK, I'm going to take 10 more tries on this spellcard, and if I don't clear it by then, I'm going to bed."

~Three hours later...~

"AAAAAAAAHHHH KEINE I hate you you stupid cow! OK, just ten more tries ...!"

Lather, rinse, repeat. Still can't get enough of those camera games.

Story of my life xD

[chirpy13]

I don't get how people are still saying this!
...
Telling us that we should simply "practice hard" and be able to clear UFO lunatic no problem is like telling a normal mode player to 1cc lunatic mode.

I don't have the slightest clue how you got that from my post.  I'm saying you DON'T play hard and then think you're ready for lunatic, you play lunatic (or beyond) until you're ready to clear lunatic.  If you're playing lunatics as serious runs in the first place, then you should know quite well by that point the amount of effort you'll need to put in to get the clear, because you've already put in that effort with your previous accomplishments.  You're also quite ready to learn how to deal with the increased bullet density and whatnot.  I understand that a lot of people get tired of being beat down time after time - I've gone through that phase a few times and took relatively long breaks from the series because of it (throwing in a credit here and there to maintain what I'd built up).  That's shmups though.  If you can clear ANY lunatic, or the more difficult hard modes, then you're more than ready to clear any lunatic you want.  It's now just up to how motivated you are to achieve it.  As far as the between-games difficulty jumps go, they're not as big as you think.  SA is hardly more difficult than any other Lunatic (Orin's tough, but the rest isn't so bad), and while UFO does stand out a bit from the rest, I'd still say the vast majority of the difficulty jump is from inexperience with the game, the irritating UFO system, and losing a power level on death.  The bullets themselves are nothing special for the most part, and once you learn how to deal with those then nothing else matters because you're no longer dying and losing that power, which also means you aren't in such a great need for red UFOs that you end up dying to collect them.  None of this is coming from a superplayer or anything either.  I'm still getting my ass handed to me by Murasa on a good run, but it's nothing that pumping credits can't fix.

[Lepetit89]

On the matter of SA and UFO Lunatic being too hard when compared to the other games, what exactly are your problems with the games?
I cleared IN first, PCB after that, then EoSD, PoFV, MoF, then I got started on SA. Sure, it was hard, but ever after clearing EoSD almost all of my 1CCs boiled down to the mere question "How do I manage my ressources?". Both SA and UFO are filled to the brim with spots (tough ones, mind you) which you can just bypass with Bombs at little to no expense (Power gain is greater than the loss or equal, for instance); the only difficulty is finding out how to move, how much Power (or Bombs) to use up and which parts you should definitely make it through safely. Trying to figure that out, I'd just practice the stages again and again and again. There are so many ways of doing that that even weaker players should be able to get up to a certain point safely.

The way I see it, SA's and UFO's particular systems (overabundance of Bombs or other ways to clear the screen of bullets) were implemented exactly because the games featured rather tough patterns, to give weaker players a shot at beating them. The only problem is how to use those systems properly. If you cannot handle the patterns, use strategy - that's how I got to this point despite being, admittedly, not a particularly strong player. I use strategy to my advantage, and that's also what's fun about the games for me. Seeing new stages, new problems, then developing strategies on my own, practicing the last 30 seconds of UFO Stage 3 for the 250th time if necessary, just to figure out that I cannot safely squeeze out another Bomb there - no problem, I just adjust my overall strategy accordingly.

Admittedly, UFO strategy is tough, mainly because it involves lots and lots of factors. For most stages, I had to time the destruction of the UFOs down to seconds based on the BGM or other factors and even then there is only so much you can do in a single run without messing up, despite practicing each stage hundreds of times. And after that, I still only cleared 0/0, but given the level of skill I have, it was by far the most satisfying feeling of accomplishment I had felt - strategy overcame the odds. Mind you, it was a bad run, it always depends strictly on how many mistakes I would make. Theoretically, however, you can get through all of the Stages up until (and including) Stage 4 without losing a single life, building up your Bomb stock, picking up red UFOs occasionally to get to the Extra Life cap.

That's why I don't really see why SA and UFO are so different from the other games - they just require more strategy, more precision when bombing if you're weaker. That's exactly what weaker players have - not brawns (well, reflexes), but brains! Well, hopefully. Can't say I'm particularly big in the brains department either. Nonetheless, taking UFO Lunatic for instance, on my best run I got to to LFS with 2 full Extra Lives. On my worst with 0/0. That's the power of strategy! Of course, the 0/0 run was my actual clear, but that's the lack of skill I guess. LFS at the end was rather cruel because it put an end to everything I used to get to that point - bombs are useless (hell, they don't even clear the bullets properly!), Byakuren is nigh invincible most of the time and the pattern is hard. You can figure that pattern out or you can just call it quits. If I had to name one complaint about UFO, it would be that, though I don't regret anything. It just added to the satisfaction afterwards.

[Pesco]

I play on Easy. With hax. And I'm proud of it.

Furthering on this that I said. I can actually clear the games on Easy without hax consistently. But that's as far as I see myself going. I don't plan on trying the higher difficulties when I can just watch replays and enjoy the stages with the player.

The games have friendly suggestions of who each difficulty in each game would suit. No harm in following instructions.

[ExPorygon]

The more I read this thread, the more I wonder if a fifth difficulty would be useful to more effectively bridge the gaps between the existing difficulty modes; if not now than perhaps in future games where lunatic may reach new heights in difficulty. The ultra patches already attempt to do this, with often practically impossible results.

[Drake]

Actually, the Ultra patches were only impossibly ridiculous in their first iteration. I think all of them are currently well within acceptability; even UFO.

I don't think adding another difficulty fixes the problem. Not only is it a lot of extra work, but the exact same problem would soon arise anyways. If you try to add a difficulty to fix the gap between games such that Lunatic doesn't jump from game to game, then you have one game with three difficulties that are barely spaced apart from each other, which seems like work for nothing. The small increases in difficulty in that case almost makes it seem as though the player doesn't have to work to climb the ladder, and likely introduces more balancing problems I don't feel like thinking about. On the other hand, if you try to just level Lunatic down a bit and have an even greater difficulty, not only is that an incredible amount of work for a small portion of the playerbase, but it would soon lead to the same predicament since it isn't solving the underlying problem, even if it sort of fixes it temporarily.

I (once again) really think one of the best methods would be a one-two-three slow climb, which is a possible strategy acquired as a long-running series. An easier (but still challenging) difficulty, then a slightly harder one, then a really hard one. Then you start over, with the new baseline being just a bit above the baseline before it. This strategy basically covers everything without leaving players out, while still slowly raising the bar, as I see it. The only thing is that it's incredibly difficult to balance that sort of thing on purpose, even with craptons of playtesting.

[Zil]

Well here's my take on bridging the difficulty gaps. First of all I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of SA, especially accusing SA's Normal of being equivalent to Hard in other games. SA was my very first Normal 1cc, and when I tried out the other games I still had difficulty doing them on Normal as well. MoF and EoSD in particular really put me through the wringer, and it was a few months before I got any Hard 1cc, which also happened to be SA. :I

And so even if SA is harder than the others, it's nothing that some familiarity with the game doesn't cure. It's along the lines of what Petit was saying. SA and UFO really reward the player for having some idea of what the game is going to do. I think what happens with a lot of people is they start off with some earlier games and get a concept of themselves as "Normal players" or "Hard players." Then they play SA or UFO and think, "well I've done Hard in the other games so this shouldn't take too long." They get their asses kicked (which is completely inevitable your first time in UFO) and think the games are way harder than the others. Each game is it's own thing, and even when you can clear one in your sleep, you should expect to have to put a lot of effort into getting good at another. Skill only takes you so far, and strategy is very important in these games. My personal opinion, when all is said and done, is that EoSD is the hardest. Lots of plain old dodging, few gimmicks, and fewer resources than most. (Well, PoDD is hardest, but that's another thing entirely.)

And then when it comes to "bridging the gap" in difficulty, you really shouldn't be looking for some kind of stepping stone game to carry you to the next difficulty. Unless you're new to the games in general, if you want to 1cc UFO Lunatic, there's only one thing you should be doing, and that's playing UFO Lunatic. Playing a different game's Lunatic mode isn't going to prepare you for the patterns and stages in UFO, and if you want to get better at plain old dodging, you really don't need to gradually work up like that. If you expose yourself to difficult things, you get better. It may keep kicking your ass despite your improvement, but that's just because it's hard. You still get better by playing anything like that; it doesn't have to be slightly above your current skill level just so you can see yourself beating it quickly. (All of this within reason of course. Diving into Hell's Tokamak on Lunatic and dying repeatedly because you can't even get a grip on it isn't going to help you get better, but if you're doing Hard in other games, UFO shouldn't have many things that would rip you to pieces like that.)

[MTSranger]

And so even if SA is harder than the others, it's nothing that some familiarity with the game doesn't cure. It's along the lines of what Petit was saying. SA and UFO really reward the player for having some idea of what the game is going to do. I think what happens with a lot of people is they start off with some earlier games and get a concept of themselves as "Normal players" or "Hard players." Then they play SA or UFO and think, "well I've done Hard in the other games so this shouldn't take too long." They get their asses kicked (which is completely inevitable your first time in UFO) and think the games are way harder than the others. Each game is it's own thing, and even when you can clear one in your sleep, you should expect to have to put a lot of effort into getting good at another. Skill only takes you so far, and strategy is very important in these games. My personal opinion, when all is said and done, is that EoSD is the hardest. Lots of plain old dodging, few gimmicks, and fewer resources than most. (Well, PoDD is hardest, but that's another thing entirely.)

Maybe our experiences differ then.

I've been playing SA lunatic for a looong time - like almost ever since I started playing normal mode - for the training of course, and it wasn't until 3 months ago that I started making breakthroughs in that game that allowed me to 1cc. I mean, by the time I got my SA normal 1cc I had already mapped out an easy route for SA lunatic stages 1-4 to the best of my ability - and they didn't change very much when I got my SA lunatic 1cc almost 1.5 years later. The only thing that changed was improvements in dodging ability that reduced resource lost by like 15 bombs or so.

In contrast, after I 1cc'd EoSD lunatic (which I had been playing for like 1 year already), it didn't take very long before I proceed to 1cc IN, PCB, MoF (1-2 weeks for each game), and that was almost 10 months before I 1cc'd SA lunatic. For me, I don't think I'm overblowing the difficulty. There were just things that I couldn't seem do before no matter how many times I try.

Mind you, UFO still rips me to pieces, although much less than before (I can reach Murasa! - compared to game over at Kogasa, that's a huge improvement imo). It's not one or two things either. Pretty much the whole Ichirin and Murasa fight for example, not to mention dying randomly to Kogasa. And if I ever get pass Murasa, Shou and Byakuren will also mean bomb pretty much everything at my current level.

I need many more small breakthroughs (capture this spell, dodge part X of the stage reliably, etc) before I even have a chance. It's not that they aren't happening at all, but rather slowly. That's because they depend on raw dodging ability, not strategy, and dodging skills don't improve that fast for me.

[Archin]

Easy mode shouldn't be reduced in difficulty. Even for newer players, leave a challenge for those being introduced to the series. Lunatic should be getting harder and harder as series progresses for those of us who have put in the time and effort to accomplish them. There should be a challenge for everyone, new and lunatic players. If the games become so hard that you have to dedicate you life to it, so be it. For those of use who can't do it. Just see it as an impossible task that you can't do and jump in it just for fun. I rather stay as a Hard player and never become a Lunatic just so I can always have that feeling of something that I can never accomplish. The amount of adrenaline from trying the impossible and some how surviving the pattern is not only the reason why I got into the series but what keeps me wanting more. Even with the major gap in difficulty from hard to lunatic. You might not be 1ccing Lunatic in a month but putting time and effort will still show in the long run. With the mind set of always getting better instead of just winning, you will be 1ccing Lunatic sooner or later.

[trancehime]

 :matsurismirk:

Woah, dude. I just read the stuff I missed and holy hell did I piss someone off. "Self-indulgent garbage" aside, I'm still a staunch believer that if you can't handle the hardest difficulty yet, start small and then go higher up that way. That is the fundamental behind "skill progression." If you can already clear something on Hard that you find "trivial" yet find Lunatic "too difficult," then I'm sorry but you're gonna have to continue chipping away at it. Finding it an experience similar to running into a brick wall and then getting frustrated? Take a break for a while to clear yourself out before trying again. Watch replays. Ask people for advice. There's a lot of ways to go about trying to attain a clear you think is "too difficult."

EDIT: Oh yeah, and PC-98 never had any of the conveniences of replays and spell practice, so I was more than offended to hear of the initial outcry posted here, seeing as I spent a metric tonne of time (2004~2009 was my PC-98 heyday) practicing Easy/Normal/Hard/Lunatic clears for the PC-98 games. So I apologize for that.

stuff

I agree with this guy. I see no issues with difficulty now and I foresee that there won't be such issues in the future. Yes UFO is balls-hard and to some TD might be a little disappointing, and maybe the difficulty scaling may need tweaking, but it's not anything that's been outright debilitating or offputting.

[ark]

Holy hell you guys. Just be thankful that you *have* a selection of difficulty levels to begin with. Look at all those arcade games (by Cave or whomever), which didn't have difficulty selections, didn't have stage practice, and people actually had to put their own money in for every credit. And they liked it.

[trancehime]

Holy hell you guys. Just be thankful that you *have* a selection of difficulty levels to begin with. Look at all those arcade games (by Cave or whomever), which didn't have difficulty selections, didn't have stage practice, and people actually had to put your own money in for every credit. And they liked it.

oh god I must have spent literally hundreds of bucks worth in credits on arcade shmups ahahahaha

it was totally worth it though!

[Vibri]

Oh jeez grampa Nereid's here to tell us stories about the war again, everyone act interested it's the respectful thing to do

[Lepetit89]

From that long a time ago? In that case, the arcade was uphill both ways, I assume? 10km through the snow?

[Archin]

Well here's my take on bridging the difficulty gaps. First of all I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of SA, especially accusing SA's Normal of being equivalent to Hard in other games. SA was my very first Normal 1cc, and when I tried out the other games I still had difficulty doing them on Normal as well. MoF and EoSD in particular really put me through the wringer, and it was a few months before I got any Hard 1cc, which also happened to be SA. :I

I missed this post some how, not really sure about that. I've played SA a lot more then I've played EOSD and currently I just reached SA's stage 6 a few days ago on normal. Stage 5 drugged me around for quite a while before I was able to get the hang of it. Now I practice it like the plague, today I managed to reach Remilia on hard for the first time. SA could be the equivalent to hard in some cases. More bullets, funky patterns or play styles of the characters could provide more of a challenge. I will say that picking up a replay for EOSD from a player scoring provides a lot more information then a replay for SA. You are still correct that knowing what the game is going to throw at you and having a strategy still takes you a long ways.

Holy hell you guys. Just be thankful that you *have* a selection of difficulty levels to begin with. Look at all those arcade games (by Cave or whomever), which didn't have difficulty selections, didn't have stage practice, and people actually had to put their own money in for every credit. And they liked it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but many arcade games provide a difficulty through some sort of ranking system. I know the Donpachi series ranks as you use hypers. It isn't the same as choosing normal or lunatic but you can decide if you want to make your game harder or not. We are fortunate that we don't have to spend our money and practicing is a lot easier with Stage/Spell practice and the ability to use save slots in some cases.

[Drake]

Rank as a game mechanic doesn't work the same way as choosing a difficulty: generally doing well means the game will get harder, and doing poorly means the game eases to a sort of baseline. Rather, the game attempts to kill the player because he isn't dying enough. The Hyper mechanic in Dodonpachi Daioujou (in particular) also works a bit different than this and is for a different purpose. Donpachi uses the first rank mechanic, note. EoSD had a rank system too; would you call that system a player's decision? Would you call it something that varies enough to enable lesser players and challenge better ones? I see what you're getting at, but the purposes and applications between rank and choosing difficulties are ultimately different.

[Raikaria]

I'm a Normal [I've moved beyond Easy for the most part] mode player, but, to be honest, I would like to see the game difficulty more even.

TD Normal was easier than IN Easy... although Reimu's shottype in that is overpowered as all hell, unlike Scarlet in IN. On my very first run of TD I got to Stage 5. But TD was made for newcomers to the series, like me, unlike UFO and SA, which probobly pushed away newbies with their difficulty.

Meanwhile I can't even 1CC SA Easy [Furthest I've got is Subterranian Sun], or even get past Murasa on UFO Easy [Nor can I get past her on Normal, while I can get to her]

As for Lunatic? I agree Lunatic Mode should always be difficult [Unless you have pro skills and can clear it consistantly, but it was probobly difficult initially], but personally I think the jump in difficulty between modes is fine.

Easy -> Normal is a jump that greatly varies depending on game, but is generally rather modest.

Normal -> Hard is a bigger jump

Hard -> Lunatic is another bigger jump

Because by the time you've 1CC'ed the previous difficulty, and can do it consistantly, your ability should be enough that the 'larger' difficulty jumps are made up quicker, because you know the basics. I played TD Hard and Lunatic for the purposes of unlocking Yuyuko's Overdrive for the lulz, and I can certainly say the jump from Hard to Lunatic was bigger than Normal to Hard, I could no-death Hard, but had to continue on Lunatic.

[Zil]

Heh, if I could find a way to keep the rank down in EoSD I'd be all over it. On Lunatic it's pretty much "if you die, we'll make the next three spells a bit easier." It's not a decision at all, unless you're bent on capturing a certain spell and kill yourself right beforehand, but that's all kinds of crazy.

TD Normal was easier than IN Easy... although Reimu's shottype in that is overpowered as all hell, unlike Scarlet in IN.

You are comparing her to the wrong shot type. Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

[Zengeku]

Heh, if I could find a way to keep the rank down in EoSD I'd be all over it. On Lunatic it's pretty much "if you die, we'll make the next three spells a bit easier." It's not a decision at all, unless you're bent on capturing a certain spell and kill yourself right beforehand, but that's all kinds of crazy.You are comparing her to the wrong shot type. Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

Why would you want to keep rank down? That's almost the worst part about dying in a shooter with rank. Killing yourself to lower rank to capture a spell almost invalidates that capture. At least that's how it feels for me. Oh and speaking of rank, it needs to return ZUN. Without the rank dropping with deathbombs that I'm pretty sure EoSD had.

[Zil]

Because I can't win at 90fps. :qq:

Nah, I probably can with practice, it's just been beating me up because I can't bomb spam everything. And for the record, deathbombs don't do anything more than a regular bomb to the rank.

[Pesco]

Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

PCB ReimuA - Timeout every spellcard. It's the only shot type I could be bothered to clear PCB with.

[Archin]

Rank as a game mechanic doesn't work the same way as choosing a difficulty: generally doing well means the game will get harder, and doing poorly means the game eases to a sort of baseline. Rather, the game attempts to kill the player because he isn't dying enough. The Hyper mechanic in Dodonpachi Daioujou (in particular) also works a bit different than this and is for a different purpose. Donpachi uses the first rank mechanic, note. EoSD had a rank system too; would you call that system a player's decision? Would you call it something that varies enough to enable lesser players and challenge better ones? I see what you're getting at, but the purposes and applications between rank and choosing difficulties are ultimately different.

I stand corrected

[Esper]

The more I read this thread, the more I wonder if a fifth difficulty would be useful to more effectively bridge the gaps between the existing difficulty modes; if not now than perhaps in future games where lunatic may reach new heights in difficulty. The ultra patches already attempt to do this, with often practically impossible results.

Easy
Normal people play this mode.

Normal
For people who play shootemup games.

Hard
For masochists.

Lunatic
For crazy people.

Ohgodwhat
It's been nice knowing you...

[Skyler]

Easy
I play this when I just feel like playing Touhou without accomplishing something. Which isn't very often. I tend to only play IN on easy when I feel like this instead of EoSD and PCB.

Normal
I play this mode on IN and sometimes PCB. I'm still trying to get more PCB Hard 1ccs though :V

Hard
Probably the mode I play most often, although I can't consistently clear it. I tend to avoid IN Hard since the two teams I find the best to play as both have to fight Marisa and she's That One Boss for me in that game. I can 1cc EoSD on Hard most of the time, although PCB is still mocking me.

Lunatic
I'm starting to play EoSD on this difficulty in hopes that I'll 1cc someday. When I feel like fooling around I'll play IN Lunatic, which is the most fun of all the lunatics (in the games I have) in my opinion. However, I try to avoid PCB Lunatic at all costs. I've never gotten past stage 3 with no continues and sometimes I don't even make it past Chen (damn cat).

Ultra
Never played this and I don't really want to until I've gotten a Lunatic 1cc and Hard 1ccs of all the games I own. I want to get a bit better before installing the patches.
Is a normal version of the game available when you install the Ultra patch or do you have to get rid of the patch to play normal difficulties?

[Tengukami]

Hm. What about a fifth difficulty somewhere in the middle, or at either end? Here's a few suggestions:

Before Easy: Peggle Nights
Between Easy and Normal: Spry
Between Normal and Hard: Athletic
Between Hard and Lunatic: GENKI DESU!
After Lunatic: Meth - Not Even Once

[Zil]

Yes I believe the ultra patch replace every difficulty with an "ultra" version. So it's not precisely a difficulty beyond Luntic. More like a boost to each one, so there's Ultra Easy, Ultra Normal, etc. You have to remove it to go back to normal.

[XephyrEnigma]

Yes I believe the ultra patch replace every difficulty with an "ultra" version. So it's not precisely a difficulty beyond Luntic. More like a boost to each one, so there's Ultra Easy, Ultra Normal, etc. You have to remove it to go back to normal.

This is exactly what they do. They make every difficulty a bit harder across the board.

[I have no name]

Yes I believe the ultra patch replace every difficulty with an "ultra" version. So it's not precisely a difficulty beyond Luntic. More like a boost to each one, so there's Ultra Easy, Ultra Normal, etc. You have to remove it to go back to normal.

Exactly this.
I'd suggest backing up the folder before applying the patch though.
(also play PCB ultra Phantasm)

[chirpy13]

I'd suggest backing up the folder before applying the patch though.

With the exception of EoSD/IN, this actually isn't necessary with the ultra patches.  The patch just makes a new thXX.exe and renames the original to thXX.OLD.  Just rename the original back to a .exe and you're good to go.  Also note that whichever is named thXX.exe will be the one to run with vsync, so keep in mind you may need to rename the files every so often for that.  EoSD/IN are special because they can't be English patched beforehand.