Author Topic: Touhou difficulty intervals  (Read 38564 times)

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Touhou difficulty intervals
« on: February 23, 2012, 11:15:39 PM »
Yeah I just played ten desires and I would say it's too easy for me.  When I first started that game I had problems and said it was too hard but back then I was a noob at that game.   Now I can beat normal easily and hard's kind of meh.  Hell I can beat lunatic maybe easily if I spent some time on it but the spellcards in that game are kind of meh.

What I'm trying to say is what should the perfect interval in touhou difficulty be for you?  I for one in the future would like touhou to be sort of hardish in generally as the series go's along just for us veterans but still be fair to new comers and maybe add a few easy games just cause.  So what do you think should be the perfect interval for difficulty in the future?   :derp:

Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 12:00:07 AM »
Easy should be what it is.
Normal as is, though a few games could use a boost.
Hard should be harder, especially in a few of the games.
Lunatic should rip me to pieces, chew me up, spit me out, then stomp on me before kicking my pathetic ass to the curb.
Spoiler:
I'm getting hot just thinking about it.
still be fair to new comers and maybe add a few easy games just cause.
There is no need for this. The easy difficulties can be easy for begginers and the higher difficulties should be geared toward veterens. UFO works nicely like that.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:07:23 AM by Zil »

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 12:32:23 AM »
When you put the whole series together, there's quite an even distribution of difficulty already. I'd rather new games with a natural progression of difficulty and a Lunatic fit for Lunatics, than new games that randomly cater to some demographic and leave out others, or have weird spikes in progression. Easy shouldn't actually be stupid easy (cough IN), but easy enough to complete if you try hard enough. Lunatic should kick my ass.

I'm pretty sure it goes without saying, but game mechanics and resources are a heavy factor too.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 01:46:34 AM »
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.  If they're made for the super-players then a majority of people would never even come close to beating them (a greater majority if applicable).
Easy is fine, normal is fine, hard is usually fine, lunatic is also usually fine, although they have gotten harder since MoF (TD is harder than EoSD is harder than IN is harder than MoF lunatic).

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 02:39:11 AM »
I play Easy to relax, I play Normal to have fun, I play Hard for a challenge, and I play Lunatic when I'm feeling ridiculous.

That's the general idea for me, and it expands over every Touhou I've played so far :V


Zil

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 04:08:06 AM »
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.  If they're made for the super-players then a majority of people would never even come close to beating them (a greater majority if applicable).
That's why you have lower difficulties. If most people can't come close to Lunatic then they can just play something easier. If Lunatic were to be made as easy as what would have otherwise been Hard, you shouldn't feel any better about clearing it just because it happens to be called "Lunatic" instead of "Hard." The highest difficulty should be all but unattainable, and the others descend from there.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 04:19:17 AM »
That's why you have lower difficulties. If most people can't come close to Lunatic then they can just play something easier. If Lunatic were to be made as easy as what would have otherwise been Hard, you shouldn't feel any better about clearing it just because it happens to be called "Lunatic" instead of "Hard." The highest difficulty should be all but unattainable, and the others descend from there.
Elitist attitudes suck >.>
and UFO hard felt as good to clear the first time as MoF lunatic did the first time, which felt the same as it did to clear IN easy the first time.  An accomplishment is an accomplishment regardless of the difficulty name (or difficulty of the game), and how hard it is varies from player to player.  You go perfect your lunatic modes and be 'meh that was easy', and I'll fight for my lunatic 1ccs and be 'that was brutal'.
The highest difficulty should be all but unattainable
This is the part I don't completely agree with: it SHOULD be attainable to those who practice, not only to those who invest their lives into the game.

Since that's 2 posts of mine, at the going rate that's my 2 cents.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 04:31:23 AM »
I'd like it if the Lunatics were so insane you could stop cringing ay Youtube experts announcing "Touhou is harder" on every shmup video.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 04:31:54 AM »
Why would you play the highest difficulty if you do not plan to invest time on the game? That's the whole point of having difficulties in the first place, if you just want to enjoy the ride you play the difficulty that you can handle the best, if you want to challenge your skills and spend time on the game you play the hardest one.
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 04:41:08 AM »
Why would you play the highest difficulty if you do not plan to invest time on the game? That's the whole point of having difficulties in the first place, if you just want to enjoy the ride you play the difficulty that you can handle the best, if you want to challenge your skills and spend time on the game you play the hardest one.
I never said that investing time was bad, I said that you shouldn't need to invest your life into it (or hundreds of hours memorizing the game so you can have a slight chance at winning) in order to beat the highest difficulty.  I'd still like to have a chance to win without having to expend weeks (in terms of time spent playing) of time.
I'd like it if the Lunatics were so insane you could stop cringing ay Youtube experts announcing "Touhou is harder" on every shmup video.
Memes, how do they work.

Honestly due to the lunatic players going 'Ten Desires is cake' and the other players saying 'OMG WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?' (exaggeration) ZUN should add (as I believe Zengeku mentioned once) an actual Overdrive difficulty to cater to those players, while not alienating those who are able to do the existing lunatics.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 04:53:46 AM »
Elitist attitudes suck >.>

I don't think he was being elitist, I think he was stating a simple fact: if you can't handle the hardest setting, go down a notch. It's pretty basic advice, really.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 05:37:09 AM »
Honestly due to the lunatic players going 'Ten Desires is cake' and the other players saying 'OMG WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?' (exaggeration) ZUN should add (as I believe Zengeku mentioned once) an actual Overdrive difficulty to cater to those players, while not alienating those who are able to do the existing lunatics.
That's why such a ridiculous thing like ultra patches appeared - to please those who find regular lunatics boring and easy :V
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 05:43:28 AM »
Elitist attitudes suck >.>
Well yes, but what he's talking about isn't really elitist at all.
UFO hard felt as good to clear the first time as MoF lunatic did the first time, which felt the same as it did to clear IN easy the first time.  An accomplishment is an accomplishment regardless of the difficulty name (or difficulty of the game), and how hard it is varies from player to player.  You go perfect your lunatic modes and be 'meh that was easy', and I'll fight for my lunatic 1ccs and be 'that was brutal'.
That's exactly his (our) point; since the difficulties of the games vary and provide a relatively even distribution of difficulty, the series already provides something for most players. To expand, you either lower the easiest or raise the hardest; considering easy only gets so easy before it's lost its charm as a danmaku game, the main way to accommodate players is to go up. You still get the lower difficulties, so why should people who can play that blistering difficulty be pushed aside? 10D was boring to most Lunatics because there's nothing harder in the game to challenge.
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.  If they're made for the super-players then a majority of people would never even come close to beating them (a greater majority if applicable).
Here as well, you seem to be missing that "Lunatic" is only a label. They're the hardest difficulty because you're supposed to be able to do all the difficulties lower than it first. That's how difficulties work. On the way up to the Lunatics, you gradually work your way up the ladder until you're good enough at the game. If the majority of people aren't willing to practice or "just can't", then holy cow they won't be able to clear, but they're still happy clearing the difficulty they're comfortable with. Naturally, a majority of people won't be able to beat the hardest difficulties of a game series renowned for its difficulty. If you want to have a chance at beating them, you have to work your way there. It isn't unattainable.
This is the part I don't completely agree with: it SHOULD be attainable to those who practice, not only to those who invest their lives into the game.
While I understand the notion of people not wanting to spend "a lifetime" practicing one game genre, this is very unspecific. Where does your boundary of "investing a lot of time/practicing" and "investing your life" lie? If you even have an estimate, why would you assume your standard is the same as everyone else's?

I never said that investing time was bad, I said that you shouldn't need to invest your life into it (or hundreds of hours memorizing the game so you can have a slight chance at winning) in order to beat the highest difficulty.  I'd still like to have a chance to win without having to expend weeks (in terms of time spent playing) of time.
In the Player Stats section of the popularity contest, most of my games range around 100 to 150 hours. Many others practice more than that, many others practice less than that. Just because you don't want to spend a similar amount of time doesn't mean it's unfair, it just means you won't get to beat Lunatics. Too bad for you.

Honestly due to the lunatic players going 'Ten Desires is cake' and the other players saying 'OMG WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?' (exaggeration) ZUN should add (as I believe Zengeku mentioned once) an actual Overdrive difficulty to cater to those players, while not alienating those who are able to do the existing lunatics.
No. Once again, "Lunatic" is just a label for the hardest difficulty. You don't need to add another difficulty level to actually incorporate that difficulty, just leave it as Lunatic and distribute the other difficulties evenly. Unless they're significantly better than the norm, Lunatic players should never be able to go into a new game and 1cc it without much effort. Refer to above.

That's why such a ridiculous thing like ultra patches appeared - to please those who find regular lunatics boring and easy :V
while this is true you're sort of missing the underlying point

Memes, how do they work.
It's a meme in different groups for different reasons. The vast majority of people who claim that have no credibility whatsoever. A lesser portion just take advantage of the obvious stupidity and use it as fickle troll material. The least portion is a group of a bunch of Lunatic players who participated in STGT 2011 under the team names "Touhou is Harder" and "Touhou is TOO EASY". Both did extremely well, and TiH tied for first place. Now it's an in-joke.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 05:54:49 AM by Drake »

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 06:53:22 AM »
I play on Easy. With hax. And I'm proud of it. :D

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 12:24:21 PM »

In the Player Stats section of the popularity contest, most of my games range around 100 to 150 hours. Many others practice more than that, many others practice less than that. Just because you don't want to spend a similar amount of time doesn't mean it's unfair, it just means you won't get to beat Lunatics. Too bad for you.
No. Once again, "Lunatic" is just a label for the hardest difficulty. You don't need to add another difficulty level to actually incorporate that difficulty, just leave it as Lunatic and distribute the other difficulties evenly. Unless they're significantly better than the norm, Lunatic players should never be able to go into a new game and 1cc it without much effort. Refer to above.

Agreed. Difficulty of Lunatic is just fine, catering to people who want to stroke their egos without too much effort because they beat something called "Lunatic" that's somewhere around the level of Hard would be just boring.

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Elitist attitudes suck >.>
and UFO hard felt as good to clear the first time as MoF lunatic did the first time, which felt the same as it did to clear IN easy the first time.  An accomplishment is an accomplishment regardless of the difficulty name (or difficulty of the game), and how hard it is varies from player to player.  You go perfect your lunatic modes and be 'meh that was easy', and I'll fight for my lunatic 1ccs and be 'that was brutal'.

You're saying it yourself - an accomplishment is an accomplishment as long as it was hard to you, regardless of the name of the difficulty level, but the actual difficulty of the game definitely plays a role.

As long as you can accomplish something, isn't that fine already? If you don't want to invest the time necessary to clear the highest difficulty level, be content with beating Hard or Normal or whichever suits you best, that's what the difficulty levels are for in the first place - creating a game that players of all skills can enjoy to genuinely feel a sense of accomplishment.
Some will stop at  Easy or Normal, others at Hard and the rest can fight for their Lunatic 1CCs.

However, demanding that the overall difficulty be lowered would amount to little more than a slap in the face to those who happen to be too strong for lower difficulties or don't consider a 1CC much of an accomplishment unless they were pushed to their limits - it would essentially alienate an entire demographic just so some who want to beat the mode "called" Lunatic can beat it with an amount of effort they're comfortable with. That would completely contradict the purpose of having four different difficulty levels for little to no gain except for some people to get a false sense of accomplishment because they put too much thought into the name of the difficulty mode they just beat.

For that reason, demanding difficulty isn't elitist at all, on the contrary, demanding that the overall difficulty be lowered is quite egoistical in my opinion.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 12:56:43 PM »
I feel that in the newer games, the difficulties are too close together. In TD I often forget whether I'm playing easy or normal, they're so similar. I much prefer the spread-out-ness of the earlier games. Mostly because I suck and still haven't managed to beat MoF, SA or UFO even on easy yet, while in EoSD, PCB and IN I have no problems on easy, then when I move to normal I get a bit more of a challenge. I wish it went back to that.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 02:25:13 PM »
Lunatic should rip me to pieces, chew me up, spit me out, then stomp on me before kicking my pathetic ass to the curb.
All of my posts basically come down to disagreeing with this.
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.
I've beaten all of the lunatics up to MoF, and each of the other hard modes too.  So if lunatic were to suddenly become th elunatic Zil wants, the lunatic players are now split into 2: those who clear, and those who can't clear the difficulty level they're used to playing, and hard mode is too easy for them (unless of course hard becomes harder, in which case the hard players get that dilemma-hard is too hard, normal is too easy).  From a game design perspective, you don't want a huge difficulty gap between difficulties.

I guess my reasoning is I want the difficulty of each difficulty level to be somewhat standard across each game in the series-a slight rise is fine by me, it gives the series a difficulty curve.  This might be why the lunatic players are the only ones that seem to bash TD-it's relatively easy compared to UFO, the previous game.

I don't feel like digging through quote walls and responding to each wall of text post individually, I just figured I'd explain my reasoning which I realized overnight.

tl;dr I have my opinion, I have reasons for my opinion, I identify myself as playing hard/lunatic, if lunatic were to become http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ i nthe next game, and hard were to match anything but UFO, then I wouldn't have a difficulty to challenge myself-hard would be to easy, lunatic would be too hard.
Well yes, but what he's talking about isn't really elitist at all.
It came across that way to me last night.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2012, 03:21:48 PM »
All of my posts basically come down to disagreeing with this.

If you want Lunatic to be as easy as, say, Hard, why don't you just play Hard? What would be the point of playing Lunatic then? Just to be able to say "I played Lunatic"?

Your problem is already solved - if you found Lunatic too hard, there are easier difficulties. If you just want the easier difficulty to be called "Lunatic", well, tough.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2012, 12:31:22 AM »
The easy difficulties can be easy for begginers and the higher difficulties should be geared toward veterens. UFO works nicely like that.
Imo UFO doesn't rly work nicely like that. UFO normal had got to be the most frustrating 1cc I had back then. I jumped from EoSD and IN to UFO, and the result was arfgh. Now, if I had worked through the series in order, it might have been a bit easier, cuz by the time I get to UFO I would've had plenty of experience, so I don't blame the game.

tl;dr I have my opinion, I have reasons for my opinion, I identify myself as playing hard/lunatic, if lunatic were to become http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ i nthe next game, and hard were to match anything but UFO, then I wouldn't have a difficulty to challenge myself-hard would be to easy, lunatic would be too hard.
^ Yeah, if easier difficulties were to stay the same and harder difficulties slowly increase, you can only do so much before the gap (of, say, hard -> lunatic) becomes too big (i.e. like easy -> lunatic in PCB). However, imo that won't happen for quite a while unless every game has a jump akin to MoF -> SA or even SA -> UFO (lunatic).

I support a bit slower increase in difficulty - so that I can keep playing something harder each time, but not so hard that it requires me to take an extra loooonng break practicing lots of stuff before I have any chance of beating it. I guess a lot of the opinions from lower level "lunatic" players like me are because in the lunatic difficulties, MoF -> SA and SA -> UFO are such huge jumps that we get stuck with nothing new to play with for a long time (almost 10 months for me, from MoF -> SA, and I'm slowly chewing away at UFO, but don't plan to 1cc anytime soon).

For newcomers, I guess the later games will start to have the hard/lunatic drift further and further away from normal, which could look really intimidating (ala UFO). That might be fine imo, considering that older games will have the more user-friendly hard difficulties from which newcomers can slowly work their way up.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 12:38:50 AM by Kanon »

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2012, 01:06:34 AM »
I'm sorry, but the whole notion that higher difficulties need to be forcibly catering towards those who aren't even willing to invest a reasonable amount of time to get to that point where they can handle a higher difficulty is just selfish. As primarily a PC-98 player who has 1cc'd all the PC-98 games with all the characters on Lunatic, spending 2+ months PER GAME and PER CHARACTER to get to that point, to see people saying that they want that point to be attainable in a few days is just being ridiculous. Lunatic difficulty exists precisely for those who are seeking an incredibly difficult challenge - hence the name Lunatic. If you really want to just have a "hard" game, play the games on Hard difficulty. That's why it's THERE. It hurts and pains me to see people that feel genuinely entitled to demand that Lunatic difficulty should be lowered to a "doable" state of difficulty when they completely ignore the fact Hard difficulty exists. What is the big deal about Lunatic now? Just the name? It is not like anybody here cares about my PoDD Lunatic 1cc, and I know there was a time when MANY people thought PoDD Lunatic was one of the hardest Lunatic clears to even pull off consistently, until the newer games came out (which I don't play because I don't like them and I never will probably).

From a game design perspective, you don't want a huge difficulty gap between difficulties.

From a game design perspective, progressive difficulties should be noticeable! You already have a Hard difficulty, so it's only natural that the next difficulty from Hard is something that's harder than Hard. In some games, like UFO, Lunatic is going to be balls-hard and I don't think many people will outright disagree with me here unless they rely on cheese-hax. And that should be fine. The Lunatic difficulties are SUPPOSED to cater to people who enjoy a ridiculous challenge. If you happen to be able to beat it easily then that's all nice and good but when you encounter a Lunatic which you have trouble with because you encounter things you don't know how to deal with without considerable amounts of practice and then start complaining about it, then that's kind of... Yeah. You claim to have beaten all the Lunatics up to MoF, yet seem to be completely apprehensive towards the idea that Lunatic could and might probably even get harder from your base expectations.

Is there a reason for that?

Quote
I guess my reasoning is I want the difficulty of each difficulty level to be somewhat standard across each game in the series-a slight rise is fine by me, it gives the series a difficulty curve.  This might be why the lunatic players are the only ones that seem to bash TD-it's relatively easy compared to UFO, the previous game.

Well this doesn't answer my question directly. But uh, I don't think difficulty level intervals have ever been standard. Difficulty levels in games should have proper difficulty curves but an entire goddamn series should NOT be restricted to that same freaking curve, it just makes the series mind-blowingly boring from a gameplay perspective and people would expect the same things all the freaking time. AND keep in mind that each of the Windows Touhou games had their OWN unique mechanics which attributed to the difficulty, or the difficulty of getting a good score on it, so you have to keep THAT in consideration too. I have half a mind to say UFO was difficult not only because of the danmaku and stuff but also because of the obnoxious (IMO) UFO system.

Quote
tl;dr I have my opinion, I have reasons for my opinion, I identify myself as playing hard/lunatic, if lunatic were to become http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ i nthe next game, and hard were to match anything but UFO, then I wouldn't have a difficulty to challenge myself-hard would be to easy, lunatic would be too hard.

Yeah, you have your opinion, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to disagree with it. Which most of us do. Pretty flagrantly, I might add.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 01:08:51 AM by Refiya-hime »

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2012, 01:15:28 AM »
Please tell me what does easier Lunatic level give to anyone.

If the game has a difficulty level that's beyond your current skill level, then what does it take away from you? You should still have one level that's best suited to your skills, and as an added bonus, you will still have something left when you get better.
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2012, 01:15:38 AM »
Imo UFO doesn't rly work nicely like that. UFO normal had got to be the most frustrating 1cc I had back then. I jumped from EoSD and IN to UFO, and the result was arfgh. Now, if I had worked through the series in order, it might have been a bit easier, cuz by the time I get to UFO I would've had plenty of experience, so I don't blame the game.

It's good that you have that perspective. I think it's healthy to do like you do, accepting the games on their own terms. Also bear in mind you went from one of the easier games in the series to one of the more difficult ones. That might have contributed to the steep learning curve, too.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 01:19:29 AM by Tengukami »

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2012, 01:24:06 AM »
It is not like anybody here cares about my PoDD Lunatic 1cc
I care about a PoDD Lunatic 1cc. It's only the best game in the series, after all. :D

Wow this thread's really... taken off.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2012, 03:09:48 AM »
I don't really mind how spread-out and badly tested the games are: the difficulties are all accomplishable, and while I guess five difficulties would be really good, it's not really necessary. What I DO have a little bit of annoyance with is spellcard inconsistency. I'm not talking about the natural variation within difficulties, I mean things like IMperishable Night. Just look at the spells. Words cannot even begin to describe...
And Kogasa's final Easy card is also far harder than all of IN Normal, etc. etc.
./pointless raging :U
Hard 1ccs
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Extra 1ccs
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2012, 03:13:24 AM »
What I DO have a little bit of annoyance with is spellcard inconsistency. I'm not talking about the natural variation within difficulties, I mean things like IMperishable Night. Just look at the spells. Words cannot even begin to describe...

Can you try? I'm having trouble understanding what you're referring to here.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2012, 03:31:10 AM »
Can you try? I'm having trouble understanding what you're referring to here.
Easy, easy, easy, HOLY SHIT IT'S KEINE, Asteroid Belt, easy, easy, Kaguya.  Or at least that's what I got from it.  Stage 3 feels like a stage 5, stage 5 feels like a stage 3.  You typically expect your game to get steadily more difficult as you progress, but IN was just all over the place.

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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2012, 08:22:31 AM »
I care about a PoDD Lunatic 1cc. It's only the best game in the series, after all. :D

Wow this thread's really... taken off.

But of course, Shoot 'em ups are one of the genres left untainted by the demand for easier and easier games, the very notion of changing that comes close to setting a hornet's nest on fire.

Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »
^What he said.
The stage difficulties are all crazy because of all those spells.
Normal players face Earthlight Ray, while Lunatic players go FUCK IT'S KEINE and then cheese off Shoot the Moon. Asteroid Belt is harder on Hard than most Lunatic cards, TBH. Kaguya's Normal Dragon Necklace is largely RNG-based (as are most of her spells, to an extent, especially Buddhist Die-mond) and very hard to capture when compared to lots of Lunatic spells, outperforming all of Wriggle and Mystia's with ease, and then Salamander Shield is just really easy. Keine's EX spells are grossly mismatched to Mokou's in difficulty (even though I suck at Mokou ;A;). Tewi's nonspells are harder than Reisen for most everyone (I say this because I myself am better at Kaguya than Reisen D:). ZUN himself has admitted to being drunk at times while working on IN, but it still bugs me...

etc. etc.
Hard 1ccs
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Extra 1ccs
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Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2012, 09:58:16 AM »
But of course, Shoot 'em ups are one of the genres left untainted by the demand for easier and easier games, the very notion of changing that comes close to setting a hornet's nest on fire.
Way to go completely ignoring the arguments presented in the thread and just going "well they're just elitist". You're sounding really passive-aggressively snarky for someone who seemingly just glazed over the meaty posts. EDIT: lol my mistake whoops. I posted a wall anyways.



The series is a danmaku (translator's note: it means bullet curtain, because there are supposed to be a lot of bullets) that is renowned for its difficulty and beauty. As people play the games, they don't get progressively worse through practice, and they aren't trying to not-clear the games. You don't have to open up a new, easier difficulty because people spontaneously have the desire to fail at the games and therefore need easier difficulties to fail at. When you talk about game series becoming progressively easier, you're actually talking about lowering the barrier to entry. You're talking about opening the genre up to people who have no initial desire to improve and complete the game, but rather to get the instant gratification of completing the game without much effort at all. You're talking about people who are being introduced to video games or don't have an attention span great enough to stay on a single difficult task without giving up and doing something else. If the series did need to become easier, it would be because the lowest difficulty is too difficult for people to obtain interest in the game, to the extent that you are actually losing a significant amount of sales. And if you were talking about a game that is attempting to target a certain casual audience and the producers had to make a decision on whether to lower the barrier to entry so today's little kids can play Mario for two minutes without throwing the controller out the window, then you'd be right; that, unfortunately, is a good idea.

However, Touhou is a doujin project that is run by a single person, and doesn't rely exclusively on sales, so the number of people playing the games does not really affect the game's structure. Furthermore, Touhou's notoriety is already greatly established. If people want to play the games, it's because they want to delve into the challenging realm that is danmaku. They've almost certainly seen someone else playing, whether a video or in person. If they want to play and actively get good enough to clear some difficulty, then they know they're in for a bumpy ride. If they go even further, then that applies even more so. If they don't want to actually play the games, but instead create doujin material like music and books and art because they're interested in that side of Touhou, then awesome for them; that's probably a significant portion of the fandom. They don't have any bearing on the overall demographic of the people who play the games.

Now, if we're talking about the people who want to clear the game, but are currently so bad that they need a lowest difficulty, they have... IN Easy. Arguably the easiest entry in all of Touhou. If you made something much easier than IN Easy, I'd be inclined to reject it as actually being a danmaku anymore. It'd be more like playing a VN where the only bad options are things like "burn your house down" and "see if you can fit that whole knife in your throat". From IN Easy, the difficulties throughout all the games mesh into a fabric that basically has something for everyone between there, and UFO Lunatic. I don't think there is anyone who fits into that range who is left out. Anyone who's made it to the point of UFO Lunatic has a game that probably yields a sufficient challenge such that they struggle to beat it but can feasibly aim for completion. Through demographics alone, it's pretty safe to say that if anything, the Easy and Normal mode players have a greater variety of games and difficulties to challenge them, than the Lunatic players do. The gaps in difficulty increase fairly non-linearly, so naturally the Lunatic players have less to work with (this is also why many venture towards other danmaku series). And that's okay; the demographics also point out that the vast majority of Touhou players fit into the Easy-Normal categories. Moreso, the Hard and Lunatic players have likely been playing so long that the challenge alone is enough motivation. The ever-slightly larger gap in difficulty is equalized by the player's insistence that beating it is a feasible goal, and that mindset is learned through practice and clearing the easier difficulties.

As said, people do not attempt to get worse at a game and therefore need easier difficulties. After time, people improve at the game. They get better and better until they can conquer everything there currently is to offer. Until there is nothing left to challenge and you need to make up your own challenges or go find another game series. The Lunatic players do not need to play an Easy mode. They do not need to play a Normal, or a Hard mode. They want their own difficulty, they want a Lunatic mode. They want a Lunatic mode that gives them a challenge. They don't necessarily want one that trumps the previous record-holder of ass-rape, but they want something that will keep them interested and, you know, actually challenge them. 10D was not this. 10D has one of the easiest Lunatic modes in the series, akin to PCB and MoF (with bombs). I don't think anyone expected another UFO, but 10D is truly not very exciting for us. The mechanics don't even have a big hand in this; the raw danmaku is easy, as a Lunatic mode: wait no, as "the hardest difficulty in the game".  Bar overdrive, but that isn't a game. People often say that ZUN makes the games largely for himself, so you shouldn't question changes made. To an extent I find this true, but if this were invariably the case, by that reasoning he would have also made consecutive games harder because he got better. He would not make himself difficulties that challenge him further and further, then suddenly drop, unless he had a stroke or something.

If the Lunatics get something they're happy with, then you look at what your bottommost difficulty range is. From those two points, you balance the middle. Obviously, I don't mean disregard the opinions of the players who play at lower difficulty, but mainly you should look at the people who are left looking for something to challenge. It may seem a bit selfish to say that ensuring the difficulty of Lunatic is a priority, but that's really how it naturally turns out. When you balance everything properly, you have your lowermost range which should stay relatively steady throughout the series, you should have your uppermost range which tickles the fancy of the top players, and the in-between difficulties take care of themselves. The jumps in difficulty between each rank shouldn't vary much even if you increase the highest difficulty a lot: the jumps should clearly increase about a third as much as the highest increase, and that's even considering there's a max increase at all. If everything stayed the same difficulty as UFO there shouldn't be any change in climb. However, since not every player can look up to UFO Lunatic and still want something to do, the difficulty of Lunatic as the series progresses should dip a little before climbing and reaching a new peak. 10D was clearly too much, but if it dipped to say MoF Lunatic without the whole bomb abuse, then rose to SA and UFO again, that would be a good scenario for all parties. Even if it did eventually progress to a point where the jump between difficulties becomes too much for most people, they still have the other games to play, which people naturally become interested in, and as said before, they make a pretty even fabric of difficulties.

Now I'm pretty sure the claims we're making in this thread have been made perfectly clear. Ahem. I've had a bit too much wine. I think I'm done.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:16:50 PM by Drake »

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Lepetit89

  • Deranged Collector
Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2012, 10:39:28 AM »
Way to go completely ignoring the arguments presented in the thread and just going "well they're just elitist". You're sounding really passive-aggressively snarky for someone who seemingly just glazed over the meaty posts. I'm going to post a wall anyways. EDIT: holy shit big wall sorry, this isn't targeted solely at you anymore lol

Okay, first of all, sorry for instigating you to write a rather long post (nice read nonetheless!), but I'm glad that it wasn't solely directed at me towards the end.
On the matter of "glaz[ing] over the meaty posts", though, sorry, but did you read my other posts? I'm on your side! You can't go unleashing the Bismarck on me!
I admit, maybe it was rather subtle sarcasm that could have gone both ways, but still, didn't think that this would happen. I have to admit, I'm pleasantly surprised. Anyway, sorry for making you outline your arguments like that to someone who never disagreed with you in the first place.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:43:16 AM by Lepetit89 »