Author Topic: RPG Mafia thread (Adorable Game of Mafia signups) (Read 54916 times)

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #810 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:25:32 PM »

Quote from: Omba on July 27, 2012, 01:23:52 PM

There's also possible tweaks like only counting posts with at least, say, 20 words for this.

Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck Firetruck

Omba · « **Reply #811 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:27:21 PM »

Yup, I would lynch for (repeatedly) doing this.

Pesco · « **Reply #812 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:27:38 PM »

My rulesets tend to just say lurkers are your problem. Deal with it yourself, i.e. enforce lurker lynches at a player level than a rules level.

Edible count me pre-/in as per my post in NHK postgame.

Dr Rawr · « **Reply #813 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:31:01 PM »

Somebody halp i forgot how to play town

BT · « **Reply #814 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:32:00 PM »

Stop rolling scum and maybe you'll remember.

Bardiche · « **Reply #815 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:35:17 PM »

I think what Omba means is, "Kaori" play is very optimal because Town can't always afford mislynching someone for being an asshole and not playing (or pretending to be) because most games don't allow more than 3 mislynches... and have more than 3 lurkers/scum.

MOTK Meta prefers to lynch people on merit of what they do, not of what they don't do. Scum can win the game by not playing at all, because Townies are naturally averse to lynching people for not playing the game instead of lynching people for being scum. Sadly, MOTK Town thinks not playing the game is actually pretty cool/a viable strategy, and when I say that I'm looking at Schezo (last game), PX (most games), Rawr (most games), Pesco (Angel Beats), Shadoweh (last game), Omba (last game), ActionDan to some extent with V/LA every game multiple times. Probably more that I can't be arsed to remember and thus name, but lurking and coasting isn't exclusively scummy on MOTK.

We can policy lynch people for lurking/coasting, but since it's a Town-favoured strategy employed by some of the players it's tantamount to surrendering Town's major weapon.

Omba · « **Reply #816 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:38:46 PM »

Pesco: I know. The problem is that only works if enough town players care enough about the game to make an effort not to lurk just because of this. Given how long that problem has been around (I saw it mentioned in at least one of the threads I linked in the post-game earlier), it seems likely it won't get solved by the players alone. What also factors in is that regardless of the fact that it helps scum to hide, town players may still think that it's not a problem to do it for various reasons - other town players are doing it, too, so even if they don't lurk themselves, scum can still hide; I'm not posting much, but I make my posts count; I'm a power role, so lurking is a good way to avoid getting too much attention; :effort:. And the list goes on.
Short of mods arbitrarily picking who they want in their game, I don't see another solution for this.

Yup, that's exactly it, Bardiche.

Also pre-/in, too

Edit: Note that I'm not saying scum should not lurk as long as it's a viable strategy. The fact that it is one in the first place is the problem and I see no good way for town to change this without giving up playing to their wincon (or all players that tend to lurk magically improving by themselves).

BT · « **Reply #817 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:39:38 PM »

But since it's so easy for scum to coast and not get punished for it, we should be doing our best to stop it from being a 'viable town strategy'. LAL enough times and people will stop, is the way I see it (or at least the logical conclusion).
edit: Alternatively we can try smaller games and substitute lurkers without a second thought.

So are we going to pre-/in now? I can do that.

Pesco · « **Reply #818 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:41:21 PM »

Quote from: Omba on July 27, 2012, 01:38:46 PM

only works if enough town players care enough about the game to make an effort not to lurk just because of this.

Will you be the man to take the first step? Or are you a sheep?

BT · « **Reply #819 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:43:39 PM »

Yeah, I think I like my suggestion. People can ##nominate lurkers and the mod subs them out.

Omba · « **Reply #820 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:44:34 PM »

Pesco: I plan on doing that, games where I roll scum excluded.

BT: This is true, but it means you have a much higher chance of town losing until the meta changes.

Bardiche · « **Reply #821 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »

I wanted to policy lynch the coasters/sheep this game, and see how that turned out. I don't think the current meta even -wants- to waste its lynches on correcting people's behaviour, so we're stuck in a rut. People need to re-evaluate the goal of the game and the goal of their play and harmonise those two, instead of being in it "just to use roles" or "just so I can follow Person X" or "eh, nothing better to do let's just in for when I have some free time".

Omba · « **Reply #822 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:52:32 PM »

I certainly don't want to waste lynches on correcting people, simply because I always play to win the current game.
Take the last game. If I'm not mistaken, there were at least as many town players going full on sheep mode at times as there were scum.

Edit: But I may actually agree to implement it for D1 at least.

Dr Rawr · « **Reply #823 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:04:45 PM »

but then how would i ever play scum?

Pesco · « **Reply #824 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:06:57 PM »

Rawr exists to be policy lynched. He's just daring us to do it.

Bardiche · « **Reply #825 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:12:25 PM »

Which is why I intend(ed) to just replace into games, if Day 1 is laden with OHGOD I know not to replace in! If it's actually cools I can sub in.

I can also avoid unpleasant players.

Omba · « **Reply #826 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:15:55 PM »

That makes it more likely games will turn out in a way that makes you not want to replace in, though. And ideally, you won't get a chance to replace in anyway because no one replaces out.

Meh, I'll test some variation of the method I proposed once my turn to mod comes around. We'll see how it works out.

Pesco · « **Reply #827 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:16:51 PM »

YOU CAN'T RUN FROM YOURSELF FOREVER BARD!

Dr Rawr · « **Reply #828 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:34:31 PM »

Quote from: Pesco on July 27, 2012, 02:06:57 PM

Rawr exists to be policy lynched. He's just daring us to do it.

so mean QQ

Bardiche · « **Reply #829 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Omba on July 27, 2012, 02:15:55 PM

And ideally, you won't get a chance to replace in anyway because no one replaces out.

:V That's a risk I gladly take.

Quote from: Pesco on July 27, 2012, 02:16:51 PM

YOU CAN'T RUN FROM YOURSELF FOREVER BARD!

I'll only play for sure if I can be the moe.

Shadoweh · « **Reply #830 on:** July 27, 2012, 03:16:26 PM »

I will say I feel the closest I got to being lynched for my behaviour in the NHK was Day 3 when I put on :seriousface: and said some words about cases. Reverting to posting about my dinner seemed to have turned the attention away again. <_<

Conqueror · « **Reply #831 on:** July 27, 2012, 04:17:33 PM »

ffff Pesco laying down the gauntlet.

Quote from: Shadoweh on July 27, 2012, 03:16:26 PM

I will say I feel the closest I got to being lynched for my behaviour in the NHK was Day 3 when I put on :seriousface: and said some words about cases. Reverting to posting about my dinner seemed to have turned the attention away again. <_<

Well, that's a problem isn't it.
/in for the next game to policy lynch all AngelBeats!Pescos, trolls, and the like. Bad play is scummy.

Pesco · « **Reply #832 on:** July 27, 2012, 04:19:07 PM »

Pushing a policy lynch is no excuse for not scumhunting. I would hope people don't forget that.

Omba · « **Reply #833 on:** July 27, 2012, 04:38:46 PM »

Only pushing a policy lynch without doing any scumhunting is in itself grounds for a policy lynch, I'd say.

Also Bard, with the players that /inned so far, that clearly means you need to /in, too.

ActionDan · « **Reply #834 on:** July 27, 2012, 06:50:59 PM »

/pre-in? V/LA over weekend.

deal with it, or lynch me.

Kitten4u · « **Reply #835 on:** July 27, 2012, 09:31:54 PM »

Pesco, I have already explained why your argument doesn't work *several times*. I have no idea why you keep saying that if we want to fix the meta we have to start policy lynching people for playing badly. If I'm town, lynching people I don't think are scum goes directly against my wincon. Let's assume for a moment that policy lynching people does improve the site meta and does make future games more enjoyable. It still doesn't change I'd be no better than ReVelske if I was playing the current game for the sole purpose of making future games better. It's unsportsmanlike, rude to the mod of the current game, and I'm basically not even playing the game anymore.

So yeah. I don't know how many times I have to make this point before you get that the players can't punish people for bad play in the way you're suggesting. The only way to improve the current meta is for the individual players to really want to play better, and then doing so. I'll cite JJBM for me. It's what I consider my best town game. My sole goal that game was to delurk as town, and I forced myself to post and to not lurk during RVS and stuff like that. I think it improved my town game quite a bit, so here's my suggestion to people that want to get better at the game: identify what you think your weakest point is and go into the next game trying to fix it. It may take a few games to fix, so don't get discouraged if it doesn't happen right away. If you're not sure what your weak points are feel free to drop me a query in IRC. I haven't been playing, but I've been reading, so I'd be willing to try to help identify aspects of play that need improving.

Omba · « **Reply #836 on:** July 27, 2012, 10:22:27 PM »

Kitten4u: Although that's to some degree what I had said earlier, there is the point that at least part of the players very obviously aren't going to change much unless they get their asses kicked - i.e. unless they are forced to improve.
If I remember correctly, you stopped playing because people don't care / put not enough effort into the game. If more of the competent players end up doing this, we'll be left with less and less good players, which exacerbates the problem. And the competent players that do stay regardless may lower their standard of play too because of :effort:. Both of these have already happened, I think.
I've come to think going for policy lynches on at least D1 may actually have merit - in part because D1 lynches often aren't much more than killing off the player that made some mistake that gets players to pile onto him, anyway. So we're at the very least not losing much by doing this as far as the current game is concerned. And while consciously doing something that lowers the chance of winning in any way does go against the spirit of the game, there's the question if making that sacrifice in a few games isn't worth it in the long run if the alternative is continuing to play on our current level.

That's not to say your offer to give advice to players that want to improve won't help, but I doubt it'll be enough by itself.
(To be sure, I'm thankful that you're willing to help even if you're not currently playing yourself).

GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em · « **Reply #837 on:** July 27, 2012, 10:29:43 PM »

Quote from: Omba on July 27, 2012, 10:22:27 PM

I've come to think going for policy lynches on at least D1 may actually have merit - in part because D1 lynches often aren't much more than killing off the player that made some mistake that gets players to pile onto him, anyway.

now the lynch shadoweh d1 voting block can finally be realized

Dormio Ergo Sum · « **Reply #838 on:** July 27, 2012, 10:33:36 PM »

Quote from: ActionDan on July 27, 2012, 06:50:59 PM

V/LA over weekend.

deal with it, or lynch me.

Pre-/out.

Kitten4u · « **Reply #839 on:** July 27, 2012, 10:37:57 PM »

If they already don't care, "getting their asses kicked" probably won't make them care more, AND doing that means you're not doing all you can to play to your wincon. That is seriously the entire issue: people aren't doing everything they can to play to their wincon. If people would start doing that then there'd be less issues at least. There's really no way to force people to care about playing.