Magical Lotus - Mahou Shoujou Byakuren - Episode 2, part 2

[Hello Purvis]

The problem with looking elsewhere is that almost all the evidence we have says the one we're looking for is ahead. So while it may not move anywhere, it may well be a whole lot worse when we get back, unless we're going forward to deal with it physically.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

If you're set on the purification thing, whatever, but I really think you're going about it the wrong way. You're really focused on the whole 'forgiveness and redemption' thing, but I'm kind of getting the idea that, although the youma and any other corrupted things can be purified, the demons themselves (which is what we're up against here) are going to have to be destroyed or resealed.

[Hello Purvis]

That's precisely why I'm going for it; it's in character. Because resealing would just perpetuate the war, Byakuren would be interested more in making the war not need to happen. As well, there is mythological precedent in Buddha converting numerous demons in a number of mythologies.  For Byakuren, actually destroying or sealing would not be an acceptable solution, it would just perpetuate the problem and kick it down the road a few years. As well, any mook could do that; but instead Byakuren was chosen, so she is going to regard this as a mandate to try to bring the demons out of the shadows.

In short, if we're treating it like a simple beat up and seal or beat up and destroy, then we're doing it wrong. Other characters (say, Marisa) would treat it that way, but Byakuren wouldn't. Hell, canonical Bykauren got sealed away herself over trying to treat youkai like people, long before it was regarded as thing you can do.

[Hanzo K.]

That may work for the other demons, but I'm just not feeling that for this one man.
There just doesn't feel like there's anything there to  turn.

[Hello Purvis]

I would disagree. Desires don't exist on their own; there has to be something to it to make it do that.

[Hanzo K.]

Maybe in your world man, but there are such things as Baseless Desires.
Desires that have absolutely nothing to them beyond that desire's presence.

That is likely what we have encountered, a desire to consume for no other reason than to do so.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

Purvis, you're still thinking of these things as if they were people, but they aren't. They're demons, and there's no garuntee that they function mentally in the way that humans and youkai do. And I think they indeed don't. You're talking about purifying and redeeming them, but it's quite possible that there is quite literally nothing there that can be redeemed, and that, as it happens, is the impression I've been getting.

[Hanzo K.]

Indeed, maybe the higher-ranking ones might be swayable, but this one feels like it's little more than a minion.
A lesser demon with little intelligence beyond what it needs to act on it's lone, baseless desire.

[Hello Purvis]

Maybe in your world man, but there are such things as Baseless Desires.
Desires that have absolutely nothing to them beyond that desire's presence.

That is likely what we have encountered, a desire to consume for no other reason than to do so.

Baseless desires mean that there's no logical reason for them to exist, not that that they come out of the aether and have no kind of will to them at all. To have a desire, you need to have a mind behind it.

Purvis, you're still thinking of these things as if they were people, but they aren't. They're demons, and there's no garuntee that they function mentally in the way that humans and youkai do. And I think they indeed don't. You're talking about purifying and redeeming them, but it's quite possible that there is quite literally nothing there that can be redeemed, and that, as it happens, is the impression I've been getting.

The fact that they can make decisions independently means that they can hold the values of good and bad to judge those decisions by.  The fact that they can lay plans suggests that they do have a concept of the future and presumably of the past.  With these things in mind, they can most definitely comprehend of code based on the idea of uplifting everything rather than satiating immediate desires. So yes, they most definitely can be redeemed. I would say, instead you are you're pretending they're something different when there's no evidence that suggests it.

Indeed, maybe the higher-ranking ones might be swayable, but this one feels like it's little more than a minion.
A lesser demon with little intelligence beyond what it needs to act on it's lone, baseless desire.

The water corruption or whomever has spoken to us? You may be right about the former, though evidence doesn't suggest it is beyond our influence yet. The latter suggests that it is quite intelligent and can be reasoned with on a number of levels.

[Hanzo K.]

Oh? Do go on, explain to us what makes you think that.
Either way, I'm all for giving up on trying to convert that ooze.

[Yugian]

(ooookay, this is starting to annoy me a little, so i will give you a question.

Can you convince the dirt to do whatever you want it to? if you can honestly answer me yes, and explain HOW and that the dirt and literally think. i'll shut up, Otherwise, please stop. matter cant think. it doesnt have a brain or higher functions, it has instinct, its not sentient.  no amount of magic, sort of some 'you are now as intellegent as human' spell, will make it sentent. and im not even sure that it'll actually properly use its new found intelligence.)

[Hello Purvis]

Find me dirt that can think well enough to show hunger and I will. Would you consider slime mold running a maze to be close enough, because we have trained them to do that without any kind of magic.

[Hanzo K.]

Dude's got a point though, all this thing has is the most basic of desires, the desire to feed.
If anything, this ooze has the most primitive of sentience, capable of little more than what it's demonstrated.


EDIT: And another thing, dirt is filled with billions of microorganisms. If you extract them, and pile enough of them together, take a wild guess as to what you'd get.

[Hello Purvis]

So do slime molds, and we have trained them to run mazes without the intervention of any kind of magic at all. Byakuren, on the other hand, does have magic and does have the requisite cleverness to use it in that way.

[Yugian]

(Blech, why'd i say dirt? meant something else... eh, too late now.

Still, point still stands. It has nothing more then the basic wants that life needs to exist. Food, Water, Sleep, Sex and Shelter. You know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. it is not smart.)

(And about the mold things, if im correct, they just kind of... grow? so in theory, they can run mazes given enough time... we havent trained them, they just reproduce to the end, given the right conditions. Unless they spouted legs and can speak. in THAT case, i just failed biology and now ahve to go retake high school, son of a bitch.)

[Hanzo K.]

Dude's got a point, all they are is piles of amoebas anyhow.
And as we all know, Amoebas may be the precursor to life as we know it, but there's no denying that they have no desires beyond feeding.

[Hello Purvis]

(Blech, why'd i say dirt? meant something else... eh, too late now.

Still, point still stands. It has nothing more then the basic wants that life needs to exist. Food, Water, Sleep, Sex and Shelter. You know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. it is not smart.)

(And about the mold things, if im correct, they just kind of... grow? so in theory, they can run mazes given enough time... we havent trained them, they just reproduce to the end, given the right conditions. Unless they spouted legs and can speak. in THAT case, i just failed biology and now ahve to go retake high school, son of a bitch.)

We teach them how to run the mazes more efficiently; it was actually kind of a huge surprise we could do that, given that in the past there was a strong argument for slime mold to be considered a plant. (They do also move by rolling, though, which is why there's was an argument for considering it an animal before we discovered this capacity. Slime Mold is awesome =])

As far as a heirarchy of needs, you may be correct. But I don't think there's much evidence we can't do something to it, since we have the magics. And I think it is worthwhile to try. But as I said some posts ago, yalls ain't down with it so go on and draw back from this.

Dude's got a point, all they are is piles of amoebas anyhow.
And as we all know, Amoebas may be the precursor to life as we know it, but there's no denying that they have no desires beyond feeding.

What evidence do we have it's that simple? And to beat that drum again, we used to think the same about slime molds til we experimented on them. (And given we're dealing with a macroscopic effect, I think that is a more useful point of reference than a microscopic non-colonied thing.)

[Hanzo K.]

'Fraid not friend, you're the only one who thinks it's worth it.
GYMO has expressed that it's not worth it, as have I.
Little something called democracy, can't run a game like this without it yo.

[Hello Purvis]

This is probably why I said, twice now, to go ahead and do it.  I am not sure why you are continuing to argue with me about it if you don't have much interest in considering the solutions I'm proposing.

[Hanzo K.]

I'm simply stating that nobody else wants  to go through with it.
GYMO is against it, and so am I. You're the only one stubbornly pushing along for it.
(Admirable thing man, but a bit out of place right now. Better luck next demon, eh?)

So while GYMO's away for now, I'll do it.

>Stop trying to affect the water.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

>Say the lines, too.

Also, once this is done and we can properly communicate with the Purpose again, I intend to ask it a few things about the nature of our enemy.

[Oldmansour]

>Stop trying to affect the water.
>"It's... getting in my head."
>If the sensation fades after we stop: "I'm okay now. It happened when I tried to seperate the water from whatever that is that's in it."

>You could lose yourself here. You're rational enough to realize this. Whatever this thing is or isn't, it will consume you. Maybe it already is. And with every passing moment, you find it harder and harder to keep your hands off of the other person's throat. You have to remind yourself that she has a name, and isn't food.
>Enough is enough. You need to seperate yourself from this ooze. Even if this approach would be eventually successful, you could lose yourself- in more ways than one- in the process. Too much is at stake to fall here. You need to seperate yourself from this sludge.
>... is what part of you thinks. But you're so empty inside. There's a much simpler way, isn't there? Consume the water. Drink it all down. Make it part of yourself.
>No. No, that's not you. That's not right. This crud is doing bad things to your head. You try to pull your awareness away from it, only to feel an answering pull. A downward pull, a spiral. Caught in a whirling hunger, a spiral of consumption.
>The female next to you is talking faster now. Meaningless. Her words cannot fill you. They are not you. Consume. Her words are empty, her flesh is not. Consume. Consume. Consume. It takes all your will to resist the pull against your mind. You feel as though something is trying to tear the very soul from your body. Every fiber of your being burns with the sensation of something almost beyond comprehension tearing our your living essence.
>The viscous black smoke steaming from the ooze begins to fill the corridor ahead of you, and a wisp of the foul stuff floats across your nose. Your head swims as the alien smoke flows up your nostrils, and you feel a terrible rush. Your burning legs feel very weak, and for a moment, you think you feel yourself falling, and something moving beside you, before your consciousness leaves you.

>......
>......
>......
>......
>Your eyes flutter as you awake in a dark corridor, lit by a thin silvery light. It takes a moment for your thoughts to orient. You tried to purify the water though gentle, subtle means, but something went wrong. What you found was horrible, a consumptive drive beyond anything you'd ever imagined. Its influence made you imagine eating, eating, Kiku. And anyone else that crossed your path. But when you tried to seperate your will from the ooze, it felt like the stuff was trying to pull your soul out. And then you smelled something unbelievably foul. After that... you must have blacked out.
>You find yourself lying down, on your back. There is a paper charm on your chest. You are still in your Magical Lotus apparel. And above all these things, you are ravenously hungry.

[Hello Purvis]

>Look around.

[Hanzo K.]

>Sit up, lean against the wall if we have to.
>"Ugh...that was not something I'd want to repeat.."

[Oldmansour]

>Look around.

>Sit up, lean against the wall if we have to.
>"Ugh...that was not something I'd want to repeat.."

>Placing a hand to your head, you groan and sit upright, voicing your perfectly understandable reluctance to try that again.
>You have a look around. You've moved back, or probably been moved back, a few feet from where you were, placing you somewhat in the right hand corridor, towards the Fresh side. The silvery light is coming from another paper talisman stuck to the wall on your left, but as to what purpose the talisman stuck to your chest serves, you're a bit less certain.
>Looking ahead, between the light behind you, the silver light of the talisman, and the 'less than natural' light coming from where the Salt corridor leads, you can discern Kiku standing in the Salt corridor, a couple feet in front of the right-turning corner, her hand upon the left wall. The dark water that nearly destroyed you appears to be absent. Or else, Kiku would be standing in that crud, and that's not a thought you'd care too much to entertain. The water seems to have replaced by a dull grey metal, and Kiku's feet and lower legs seem to be wrapped in a magical light, giving off a metallic sheen.

[Hanzo K.]

>Where's Lily?

[Oldmansour]

>Where's Lily?

>She does not appear to be present.

[Hello Purvis]

>Let's not disturb her right now.
>Take a moment and try to examine what happened in those last few moments, and see what we can learn from this.

[GuyYouMetOnline]

>Actually, do attempt to contact Lily, doing so through the ring. There is much danger here, and we should make sure that both of our companions are all right.

[Hello Purvis]

>Let's not disturb Great Tiger over there.