Path of Radiance Mafia -Game Over-

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

DORMIO LET'S GET MARRIED HYDRA'D!

None of these bloody games will let us.

DoRmIoOoOoOoOo ReMeMbEr MeEeEeE? i'M cOmInG FoR yOu DoRmIoOoOoOo! YoU BeTtEr GeT ThOsE PoStS oUt ThErE ToDaY BeCaUsE It'S yOuR LaSt DaY Of FrEeDoM aHaHaHaHaHaHa!

Somebody hold me. I'm scared. I don't want to die. I still have so much to live for. Like mafia.
...
...
...Can Day 5 come quicker?

Anyway, words! How does they work?
Every time I read Affinity, I didn't really feel that he was scum. :/
I guess I'll reread this goddamn thread again since words aren't working.

[WHMZakeri]

Zakeri's reaction to getting two votes on himself seemed unnaturally angry to me.
He didn't refute the reasoning either, all he did was assert that lynching not Helepolis/Conq would be bad.

My reaction isn't to having two votes on me, though.
My reaction is to people not lynching one of either Conq or Hele.
This, consequentially, is the exact reason why my case consisted of not refuting my own lynch, but asserting that not lynching them would be bad. Because it would be.
Well, that and because I really can't think of a reason not to lynch me besides "I'm town."

I'm still teeved at Affinity for yesterday late in the day, for again this same reason. Something felt off about Affinity's vote on me today, but I just accepted it as the natural progression from yesterday evening. Then Shadoweh pointed out that he admited the vote on me was a prodvote, and that as soon as I bother to prove I'm town, he's going to switch off onto his better target. I'm trying my hardest to think about how town would really feel doing this, but I don't see he would try to foreshadow his switch to Conq later as town. It sort of feels like he's saying "I'm okay with not lynching someone I know is scum, if I can get away with it."

It sounds stupid now that I read it again, but hey, Serelaposting~
##Vote: Affinity

[Shadoweh]

Dormio stop doing schoolwork and post in the mafia damnit. >:< <-- angry face, not unhappy face with misplaced nose.
Conq, does BT and Zakeri really tell you nothing at all? :S Being lurky isn't an excuse not to see -anything-, they've interacted with plenty of dead townies.
Pesco, outside of a possible bus on PX, why aren't you scum? It's your turn to provide something for us mere mortals to follow after. Who's Conq's partner?

Why do I get cut the minute I post? O_o
Zakky-chan~ Even though your avatar is the cutest Youmu ever and Youmu can't possibly be scum, I have to question you. What do you think of Conqueror at this point? He didn't get any results and from your perspective, the possible scum are getting reaaaal slim.

[Affinity]

@Conq

Aside from the fact that all reads in this game are subjective, PX read as derping town to me and I felt the cases on him to be opportunistic. I have a general history of defending PX as town and lynching his ass as scum; I would know.
Again, I don't like the way you dump all of my D2 and D3 under "inconsequential"/"scummy"/"nullish". It's an easy way to discredit my posts without actually commenting on them.

Firstly, I have reiterated the point about how Conq's BT case on D2 was bad and misreppy given the way he threw it away on D3.  The most succinct conclusion I have come to regarding his D2 posting and PX/BT/rawr fuzziness is posted here, which baffles me as to why he's continuing to say mistakenly that I am merely using labels such as null and scummy to describe his play. 

By this reasoning, lynching by flavour and balance concerns is completely valid. What of a mod who deigns to deliberately buck the trend? This is a stupid argument.

Secondly, I was not attacking Conq for 'not voting PX to the point of a lynch', but rather, not considering PX as scum beyond his subjective town read even despite the fact that two investigative roles in the same game should at least be unlikely.  Subjective reads are merely an empty excuse for defending what became flipped scum, and scrutiny and suspicion should be given when due.

This doesn't jive with how you reacted to my claim. Sure dayplay, blah blah, but you also spent a large part of D2 talking about how PX's play was scummy. I still don't see the distinction. If I'm scummy enough to lynch regardless of claim, why wasn't PX?

Lastly, there is a very large difference between my opinion on PX's claim and Conq's claim.  In the latter case, scuminess was inherent in the claim; Conq assuming the role of watcher he claims to have makes his interactions with PX even more unforgivable in he never questioned the latter's copclaim.  We did not have an already flipped scum as measure with PX.

===

Not seeing what I can say against Shadoweh's one guy must be on scum-thing on me, but I'll entertain a few things from Conq before I go to sleep.   In any case, Zakeri's vote on me for moving onto him end of D3 and 'not being able to see how town would vote for a weaker case at the start of the day' is underwhelming, and doesn't give me a reason to view him otherwise.  I'll continue voting for Zakeri for already stated reasons since there doesn't seem to be a sufficient interest for Conq's lynch today (even though I very much prefer it).  Not exactly seeing how me finding two people scummy at the same time and presenting reasons for their cases is so questionable (I could certainly say the same for Shadoweh's vote for Bt using the same logic), given that my opinion on Zakeri would have been more likely to influenced by content posted today (e.g what does he think about Conq?), which he has yet to provide.

Would also like to raise to Shadoweh that most of the time Dormio changed reads between days as opposed to throughout them, and in the latter case, only when the wagons he were on were no longer relevant (e.g Conq, Shadoweh D1), certainly more typical of 'reactionary scum' as opposed to 'thinking town', but that suspicion will figure another day.

[Schezo]

Voting:
Conq (1): Pesco
Zakeri (2): Affinity, Dormio
Dormio (1): BT
Affinity (3): Shadoweh, Conq, Zakeri (L-1)

Not Voting:

Affinity is at L-1
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline for day 4 is in ~32 hours Watch timer here

[Shadoweh]

Not seeing what I can say against Shadoweh's one guy must be on scum-thing on me,

I gave you something you could say to it. You out of all people should have a good grasp of what I'm saying. Do you agree or disagree that PX was in a weak enough position that he was likely being bussed? If in your opinion he was, which seems evident in that you were pushing him from the beginning of the day as obvious scum failing until his claim made his lynch impossible, you should be looking at Pesco but I haven't seen you mention him. If he wasn't being bussed yet in your opinion because Pesco is so town to you that there can't have possibly been scum on the scum wagon, it shouldn't be that hard for you to go back to that time and find the people who were slowly maneuvering to get onto the scum wagon in case of townie cred. There should be two, right?

As it stands to me this is more ignoring the circumstances around the wagon and the flip and just saying yep there was a scum flip and going after random people who weren't voting PX, like Helepolis. Anyone can talk game theory about how X was defending Y and Y was scum, therefore X is probably scum, but that failed once. Show me the intent. It should be RIGHT THERE on THAT DAY.

Also if you moved your vote to Conqueror his wagon would be just as big as Zakeri's right now, so if you truly believe that's where the scum is, vote with all of your might! We're getting near the end, this isn't the time for safe votes. Vote with GUT! =D

Would also like to raise to Shadoweh that most of the time Dormio changed reads between days as opposed to throughout them, and in the latter case, only when the wagons he were on were no longer relevant (e.g Conq, Shadoweh D1), certainly more typical of 'reactionary scum' as opposed to 'thinking town', but that suspicion will figure another day.

One could say the same of you, that you only changed wagons when the ones you were on were no longer relevant in your mind. (e.g. PX, huh what, Helepolis). Why did you change your mind in those circumstances? How were your reasons different then Dormio's?

[Shadoweh]

(I would do this with pictures of avatars but I'm not sure if it would count as hotlinking)

PX: Oh god Conq what do we do! I'm being voted by the three most obvtown people!
Conq: Hmmmm... no fear, I shall tally forth and attempt to start a wagon on rawr with Shadoweh. She seems impressionable. Meanwhile we shall set up a random tracker claim. Claim that BT is obvtown for no reason so my attempts to wagon and vote him will fall flat whilst I do so. We canst have both our votes on huh what after all.
PX: Should this claim have any flavor?
Conq: Nonsense, I am hardly a believer in flavor in claims, it's not like all our scum pm's have bountiful flavourful descriptions because the mod clearly love the genre we're playing in or anything, just saying 'I r trackur' will satisfy the town.

PX: Conqueror what do we do! There's even more of them voting me, including the confirmed town we failed to kill last night!
Conq: Alright, I'm already voting the person you plan to clear absolutely as town. I'll keep hyperdefending you and never considering you're going to flip scum in a few hours.

PX:Conq they're still doing it!
Conq: Okay, let loose thine claim! I will prod at it suspiciously and force you to give flavor despite not having this ready even though we planned this together since the beginning of the day. Then I'll continue defending you. Our plan is foolproof!

[Shadoweh]

Look Conq, I found some useful BT interaction[/s] you can look into! Aren't I just generous?

[Pesco]

Pesco, why is Affinity town?

It's one of those times where the facts say one thing and gut says another. PX wasn't in any danger at the start of Day2. If myself or Affinity were scum, then our votes on PX would be overbussing since that put him as the forerunner wagon. The cred from such a move doesn't last and maintaining numbers would be far more beneficial to scum than making themselves need to survive 2 extra days. Up till there his play has been reasonable enough to me to not consider him a prime lynch target. He's an outside shot that should be policy lynched at LyLo as I would do to bofh or Kitten for surviving that long.

It sounds stupid now that I read it again, but hey, Serelaposting~
##Vote: Affinity

That's a 'not-me over me vote'.

Pesco, outside of a possible bus on PX, why aren't you scum? It's your turn to provide something for us mere mortals to follow after. Who's Conq's partner?

Because I can do good and proper scumhunting. Conq's partner by my read of votings and what I remember of interactions over the days is Zak or myself. It's arguable that the jabs we do at each other is just distancing and nothing that ever amounts to a definitive lynch. Of the reads that Hele left us with, Conq's partner would be Dormio. It's a possible one, but maybe too obvious to be true for my consideration.

I recall BT ruling out a Zak-Affinity team. What do you think of these two being the main wagons today? If either one is scum, is Dormio still scum with them?

[Shadoweh]

I'm not sure how much I agree with the votes being seen as too far when they were only the second and third. I can understand from your perspective why the cred wouldn't be worth it. I think your style differs from Affinity's though.

I went back to make sure I was remembering correctly and that Conqueror was the one who asked for flavor because it adds dissonance to ConqxPX that my puppet theatre displays. PX claiming BT was confirmed town in pretty much his first post means this was planned by scum since the beginning. As a set-up plan, if Conq had intended to faux-grill his partner, it doesn't make sense that he would ask for something PX didn't have ready for him. If they were partners, he should have had ready-made flavor to answer the request. Instead PX stuttered until Conq told him in-thread what kind of flavor he meant. Can you explain the situation in a way that makes sense for them as scum partners?

[Pesco]

Scum don't have daytalk.

[Shadoweh]

Plausable. But they don't need daytalk to pre-plan this.

[Shadoweh]

Okay Bacardi says we have to sleep now. I expect homework finished by Conq, Affinity, BT and Zak, and for Dormio to actually contribute damnit.

[BT]

##Unvote

@Shadoweh and Pesco, regarding the scum-motivation behind Hele's wagon:

Let me explain my stance on this with more detail. Hele was far from a perfect townie and was making plenty of mistakes. Scum could capitalize on these mistakes to get him lynched. However, townies may also see these mistakes as an easy way out from scumhunting (let's face it, that kind of thing can be tedious at times!) and jump on the wagon with makeshift cases. Or, you know, jump on the wagon because they believe that Hele is scummy ==> Hele is scum. As for me, I've outlined in this post that, while I think that Hele is scummy, I do not think that he is scum. Shadoweh seems to have forgotten about that, however:

If he thought Helepolis was so scummy (and according to today he did) he could have made that much clearer by being the one to man up and switch his vote instead of waiting for the confirmed vig to do it.

By the way, I couldn't have switched in the first place, because I wasn't on during the day's final hours (and wouldn't have switched earlier due to a Conq lynch being possible). In fact, I never am. 4:00 AM isn't such a friendly time at all.

Back on subject, scum and town alike could have jumped on Hele's wagon with ease. Question is, were there scum on it? Since I was assuming Town!Conq when making that statement, I was referring to the fact that scum wouldn't mind being on either wagon as long as one of them was lynched. So, if this is correct, scum didn't have to be on Hele's wagon for it to work, so there's a chance that they weren't. Which is why assumptions of "there HAD to be scum on Hele's wagon" are making me squirm.

And I've only now noticed how Conq summed up this thing with one paragraph in #1002. Yup.

Blargh I really did try to sort things out in my head but I still can't do it. This really sucks and I really hate to do this but I'll have to do some mass re-reading tomorrow and finalize my opinions then.

My unvote on Dormio is because some of the Dormio-PX interactions actually do make no sense for scumteam Dormio-PX and I'm just really confused as to what to think. I hate it when everyone is right. :V

[BT]

I recall BT ruling out a Zak-Affinity team. What do you think of these two being the main wagons today? If either one is scum, is Dormio still scum with them?

At this state of -complete chaos-, I can't really say what I think about Dormio-Affinity or Dormio-Zak. Hell, I'm not even sure who I'd lynch out of Affinity/Zak right now.

By the way, is the bit about scum having no daytalk confirmed?

[Affinity]

@Shadoweh: The root of suspicion that someone is bussing should come from the votes and points of the people themselves, not some process of elimination that comes with the arcane speculation that someone has a low enough cred for his buddies to bus them (even if he has, so what?  That town cred carries a risk, and it's not an action scum is bound to).  pesco's and huhwhat's posts against PX were thusly genuine enough for me to think their votes on him as townie, and the earlier's actions throughout the past few days was active scumhunting with a vote I can agree with.  I see no reason to speculate that scum was bussing PX (I think this is the correct order of things)

Also, I simply don't get your scumhunting premise that (both!) scum is wholly incapable of consistent town reads on fellow scum, given that consistency in reads gives more town cred than clumsily moving onto scum (in most cases).  If you are accusing me of 'not considering the circumstances of the wagon', then I would say that your opinion as to what scumhunting should be is blinding you to the more numerically correct traditional scumhunting principles. 

Would give your PX-Conq skit 3.5 stars for entertainment value and 1.5 for insight.  The supposed absurdity of the first paragraph could apply to anyone;  Conq going after the town 'result' PX softclaimed is a nulltell given that he had a fair reason for doing so with regards to roles alone (e.g BT might be a scum godmother), and I am inclined to think Conq's defence with regards to PX's claim a nulltell.  Could certainly invert it and give a version as to how Conq can't be reasonable town (e.g No!  I will not let setup considerations get in the way of my wide-eyed faith in PX being town etc.)

One could say the same of you, that you only changed wagons when the ones you were on were no longer relevant in your mind. (e.g. PX, huh what, Helepolis). Why did you change your mind in those circumstances? How were your reasons different then Dormio's?

Helepolis, I have said quite a bit on in the course of D3 as to why I thought him town; huhwhat was an ED1 that did not stretch beyond acceptable boundaries (unlike Dormio's vote-park on Conq); PX's tracker claim was a tracker claim, just as your vigclaim was a vigclaim.  Throughout the day I did have views on a few other people which carried over to the next, while Dormio goes after one person a day and little else, which is the main point.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

For how much Affinity seems to dislike me, he sure seems stuck up on Zakeri/Conq.

Anyway, should be done with this reread soon.

[Conqueror]

Zakeri, I'd like an elaboration for your Affinity vote. I can't parse your reasoning as is.

Other responses to Shadoweh/Affinity etc coming later.
Will say re: shadoweh that it's not so much that reading BT and Zak doesn't tell me anything so much that I've been over it all already and the interactions don't really swing me one way or another. I talked about BT a lot of D2 but I'm wavering now. That specific post you linked re: PX interactions is null for me because I agreed with that piece of logic. Zakeri I'll have to reread again. Anyway I'll talk more later tonight.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

>:< <-- angry face, not unhappy face with misplaced nose.

>.<;;

I guess I don't particularly like Affinity's current actions. I see a lot of posts saying why I'm bad, but he does not follow through with this at all, saying that he'd rather leave it until tomorrow.
I mean, yeah, his vote on Zakeri is a prod and other people have commented on this so whatever. But how long do you plan to keep your vote there? Would you rather see me or Conq lynched today?

Bah, I can't words. Trying to make another post.

[Shadoweh]

At this state of -complete chaos-, I can't really say what I think about Dormio-Affinity or Dormio-Zak. Hell, I'm not even sure who I'd lynch out of Affinity/Zak right now.

By the way, is the bit about scum having no daytalk confirmed?

No, the only way we could confirm it is by asking the scum team. Perhaps if you'd been reading you would know this? Out of Affinity Zak it should be either since if you realize Dormio is town, and you seem to be holding onto Conq town, and you haven't slightly mentioned a Pesco scum, and you're following my directions as a townie, they're the only people left to be scum for you.

[Affinity]

All I can say is that I can only vote one person at a time, Dormio.  I'm also not inclined to follow through with it today seeing that I'd rather see Zakeri and Conq lynched as I've said here; your transgressions lie more in general attitude are not as explicitly scummy as Zakeri's shady availability and Conq's failure to go for PX despite having the role he claims to have.

My vote on Zakeri is less of a prod and more of a solid vote.  There isn't much of any other reason to vote him other than putting his vote on huhwhat for the entirety of D2 without delving deep into the question of huhwhat being scum and having many holes in his reads on people (like Conq), and I'm voting him for precisely these reasons.  Conq is not a likely lynch for today from what I see, so I'd rather pursue Zakeri.

[Shadoweh]

I'm quite annoyed at how you can notice you've repeated something someone else said, blanket unvote and say you'll come back with a reread when we have 24 hours at this point. Opinions on Zak. Opinions on Affinity. NOW.

Dormio, do you think the prod vote makes Affinity scum? He's done something similar as town in JJBM before. You don't have to dig up reasons for him to be scum to you. This is the point where the town needs to be talking about this. If you think I'm wrong, tell me and we can figure out where the culprit is.

Affinity: Arcane speculation is so much more interesting though. Generally, scum keep one of their buddies as null-town and one of their buddies, usually the dude being suspected, as scummy. I didn't ask you to do something hard you know. There was a town wagon at L-2. You propose scum were not on it. Logically two people should have been nervous as hell during that time looking for ways to sound a-okay with that lynch, or would do something to give themselves away because they have ~*~confirmation bias~*~, and all I've asked is for you to go back and look for it at that time. Uber-defending someone you know is about to flip scum in a way that isn't actually stopping their lynch does nothing but trash your own rep.

Until someone counterclaims Conqueror with a fourth powerful role I can't conclude that he's faking. Affinity, I think now is a safe time for you to engage in claiming.

[Shadoweh]

Er, pretend that says 'a scum wagon with five townies' not 'a town wagon'. Yes.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

My reaction isn't to having two votes on me, though.
My reaction is to people not lynching one of either Conq or Hele.
This, consequentially, is the exact reason why my case consisted of not refuting my own lynch, but asserting that not lynching them would be bad. Because it would be.
Well, that and because I really can't think of a reason not to lynch me besides "I'm town."

:/

@Affinity: So your priorities are Conq > Zakeri > Me, right?
When did your vote on Zakeri change from a pending vote into a solid vote, anyway?

@Shadoweh: Getting clarification on some things. Words are hard, okay?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I hate everything.
##Unvote
##Vote Conq

[WHMZakeri]

Conq is not a likely lynch for today from what I see, so I'd rather pursue Zakeri.

See, this is the thing that makes me so suspicious of you.
If you're so certain Conq is scum, then why are you so willing to give up his lynch?
You used this excuse yesterday when his lynch was at L-1, and now you're saying it again even though there's still time to build up wagons on people. I don't really see how, or why a Conqueror lynch is impossible to the point that you might as well not even bother with it. I think it's pretty scummy that you seem to be maintaining that he's certain scum while discouraging people from forming a wagon on him at the same time.

As for the way I've been acting all game ... I can tell you it has nothing to do with my alignment. I'd feel too guilty getting into it at this point in the game, but keep in mind I have a confession that I need to get out as soon as postgame hits.

As for my personal feelings on Conq? I can't really tell, and I'm not really in a position to make a biased decision on his alignment. To be honest, Most of the game, I've either been agreeing with what he's been saying, or thinking the same things he has been saying. The weak, semi-defending of PX based on roles (though it's really weird for him, since he had a similar role), The case and vote on Huhwhat that lost relevance when PX flipped scum, then all the points that Helepolis were made to look bad in, especially when going toe to toe with Conqueror (Conquerer looked a lot better in taking apart Hele's arguments than vice versa). And even now in skimming through Conq's posts, I'm finding Additional reasons to believe Affinity is scum (Spending all of day 2 hounding PX, only to let him off for a shakey claim that he didn't entirely believe in himself.)
Basically, I'm being swayed by Conq because he's pretty much me, except even more town. I can't even say "It's suspicious how he feels exactly the same way I do." because I'm not self-centered and egotistical enough to try and act like I've been relevant for any part of this game.
Saying Conq is definitely town will probably be my umpteenth mistake in a row this game, but he's given me a lot of good feeling for a majority of the time I've spent reading the game.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Forget about my post earlier today, where I said I doubt my read of :PXtroll:.
##UnFoS(?) BT
Shadoweh's #1039 about BT brings up a good point though.
BT should do that thing where he posts more.

Anyway, RE: Conq.
First off, yes Conq pressed PX about his weird claim. Yet Conq was against his lynch. It was also awkward and delayed until close to the end of day.
I'll write more when I sort through this mess that I call my brain.

[Shadoweh]

Youmu doesn't make mistakes, she is too moe.
Voting for the likelier lynch is why people were calling me scum ED1, including you frowning at me.

[Affinity]

I claim Boyd, Vanilla Town.

Zakeri, I believe in PX's claim despite the flavor errors and other similar stuff.  So did huhwhat.  Why are you finding me scummy for it? 

Also, telling us that your action has nothing to do with your alignment, has nothing to do with your alignment, but alright on your clarification on Conq and your vote on me.  But if you feel that I'm scummy for 'diverting a wagon away from Conq while I'm cheerleading it at the same time', then are you finding Conq-Affinity plausible or something?  You have to agree that your content is the most shaky out of everyone in the game so far, and I don't think voting you to extract some degree of it from you for further consideration is a scummy action.

Neither did I say that I would give up Conq's lynch, and I don't see you commenting on my case against him.

##Unvote
##Vote: Conq

===

@Dormio: Since yesterday, actually.  In fact, it is both a solid vote and a prod vote.

@Shadoweh:  I don't think hyperdefending flipped scum is a towntell as you think it is (it is null for me and not even part of my reasons for voting him), given that townies do not have much business being overconfident about their town reads and defending them anyways, much less a 'fellow' investigative role.  Given that PX's lynch was far from inevitable especially after his fullclaim, and that many people were adamant about their town reads on PX in the day (e.g Dormio, Conq, Shadoweh, Zakeri, BT, who are all alive today!), why is it so objectionable for scum to mix in with these people?  Conq and Zakeri are my main picks precisely because of these D2 reads.  If you want me to find people who fit your artificial set of criterion (e.g have a null on PX, but don't be too obvious about it!), then Helepolis and rawr certainly fit, but they are dead.  Not sure how I am 'ignoring the context of the scumflip' when I am sticking to traditional reasons in my scumreads.

[Shadoweh]

Conqueror wasn't adamant about his town read after PX claimed. Conq sounded like he was considering moving over. BT was absent and not voting anywhere near PX. Dormio was Dormio. Pesco held onto PX as scum. Zakeri was voting huh what for attacking PX. And you switched pretty much because PX's wagon was gone. If you would look into these things you would be able to answer with a difference. I feel like you aren't reading and that's why it's hard to figure you out. Let me pull up a better votecount to gauge what was going on.

Voting:
PX (4): Huh What, Pesco, Affinity, nurse rawr
Huh What (3): Helepolis, PX, Zakeri
Dormio (2): BT, Bardiche
BT (3): Dormio, Shadoweh, Conq

If Zakeri and Conq are the scum, it would put them as third on both of PX's counter-wagons. This is plausable. It seems more dangerous though. For now I'm actually pretty satisfied with your answers. You've been after Dormio for having wavery opinions though. At this moment, why is BT town considering the way he's had no opinion at all beyond Dormio for 4 days?

##Unvote

Zakeri is also the only one yesterday who was expressing a willingness to vote for Conqueror while being on the Helewagon. His reads go from "They're both scum" to "Conq is the less scummy one" to "I don't know" to "I guess Conqueror is town" about the time he stops being in danger, mostly in response to the EYES staring at him. I've forgotten why this is scummy but it struck me as weird backtracking. The part earlier about, what's it called? Chainsaw defense? That's why I'm going to frustrate you all and go back to

##Vote: Zakeri