Reimaden

[illyx]

So I've recently realized that Reimaden might actually be part of Makai. I wanted to ask here for confirmation, as I figure you guys probably know a lot more about this than I do.

If you dunno what Reimaden is, it's the place where you fight Mima in Story of Eastern Wonderland (Touhou 2). I always thought of it as being a separate realm that Mima created or stole for herself, or something of that sort. I never thought about it actually being part of Makai.

In the first place, it wouldn't make sense for Mima's home to be in Makai. Shinki makes it quite clear that she has no idea who Mima is in Mystic Square. She asks Mima who she is directly, and Mima basically replies that she is "the god of the human world." Well, we all know that she really isn't, but Mima has no problem with lying and in fact ZUN likes to tag her lies so that we know exactly when she does. This was one of those times. Regardless, we have no indication that Shinki was lying. And since Shinki is the god of Makai, who created that realm and everyone in it, it can't be that she wouldn't at least be able to realize that the person in front of her was from Makai.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Mystic_Square:_Mima%27s_Scenario#Final_Stage

But now I'm confused because of this:
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Story_of_Eastern_Wonderland/Translation/Regular_Stages#Stage_3
In the script for that stage, Genji makes it quite clear that they are headed for the "demon world" and that this is "the quickest way to Reimaden." We even see a relation between the words for Reimaden and Pandemonium. Apparently Pandemonium, Shinki's castle, is actually called Banmaden in Japanese.

More importantly, it appears that even the letters for Makai match up perfectly. I grabbed the letters from this page:
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Makai
"魔界" and compared them with the letters from the above stage 3 script where Genji talks about the demon world:
"ここは幻夢界、魔界と現世の
狭間ですよ。"

You can see that the same characters are present. These are even the same characters used in Mystic Square, I checked. Now I don't know much about Japanese sentence structure or anything like that, but I think I can at least say that it looks highly probable Genji was talking about Makai.

Additionally, given the "den" in "Reimaden" it looks like it would have been a structure of some sort instead of an actual realm. If you look at the translator's note in that same stage 3 script... "Den" means palace, shrine, temple, or pantheon. Shinki's palace has the same character.

The odd thing is that, in the page on Makai that I linked earlier, it doesn't mention this. The only instances of the player entering Makai that it mentions are from Touhou 1, 5, and 12.

So what do you all think? Where and what is Reimaden...?

[EDIT: Ah, one more thing I forgot to mention. In Touhou 1, as you know, Mima was in Jigoku and not in Makai. Which is another reason why this doesn't seem to make sense...]

[Bias Bus]

PC98 canon is kinda screwy to mess around with as there isn't really much tieing it together as opposed to windows which is more fleshed out and complex (as sad as that is). Not sure how my post will be of use being this is essentially the first I've heard of Reimaden at all, in fact, I always wanted to know what that very area was called for the longest time but never got a clear answer up until now. Needless to say, I more than a little intruiged by your discovery.

I remember doing a little digging myself on the last area and the second to last area in SoEW, and I found that, by Stage 3, Genji said that they were heading into a "Dream World" rather than a demon world. Although this was years ago and might have been a mistranslation at that. As for Pandemonium, I considered it to be the city that surrounds Shinki's castle rather than it being the name of the castle itself but, that's just my preference on the issue.

Anyway, let's see if we can do something with this...

Assuming that Reimu is heading into Makai in Stage 3 of SoEW, I can give the hypotesis that Shinki might have forgotten about Reimaden entirely. If this is the case, then that must mean that Reimaden was either an abandoned structure or was recently built without her knowing (more likely the former). Now then, onto Mima who was in Jigoku upon her first meeting with Reimu. I like to believe that after her defeat in TH1, she found a way out of Jigoku (perhaps following Reimu out) and started roaming Gensokyo thereafter. Later, maybe Mima found away into Makai and laid claim to Reimaden for whatever reasons she may have wanted in the events of the next game. Also, this may prove that there was more than one way to get into Makai rather than using the gate Sara is guarding.

Overlooking all of the above, I still want to say that Reimu was heading into a 'dream world' like I read all those years ago. If this was the case, then it would explain how and why Shinki doesn't know of Reimaden or remembers Mima being on her turf in SoEW.

I honestly want to know more about this Reimaden but, considering there doesn't seem to be much on there, we might have to settle for what theories we come up with on the matter.

[nintendonut888]

The "dream world" mentioned is likely the place stage 3 takes place in and just that (for the record, the newer translation "dreamworld" is less accurate than "World of Empty Dreams". Looking at the kanji, a direct translation would be "world of illusionary dreams"). Where it leads to is not exactly clear. I always thought it was just a separate and remote area of Makai, but hearing that it has a proper name, maybe it's a different realm altogether. It has been established that Gensokyo links to many different dimensions...

[8lue Wizard]

Genjii: This is the Dreamworld, in between the demon world [Makai] and our own.
...
Genjii: This is the quickest route to Reimaden.

These are two different statements. It sounds to me like he's not saying that they're going through Makai to get to Reimaden, but rather "We could use this space to get to Makai, but there are other stops as well; Reimaden is one of them."

[illyx]

@8lue: That didn't occur to me. Maybe that really is the case, that's really interesting!

@nintendonut888: Thank you for the translations. Really, you're awesome. =D

@Tere Ingrabus: Well, in the stage 3 script from Touhou 2 (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Story_of_Eastern_Wonderland/Translation/Regular_Stages#Stage_3) we see this:
"This is the Dreamworld, in between
the demon world and our own."

That's probably the place you mentioned when you talked about a dream world. Thing is, as nintendonut888 said this dream world they're talking about there is the Stage 3 area. You can see that the background imagery changes significantly from Stage 3 to Stage 4, as you go from a tunnel-like area (3) to an open, dark area (4). And then in the final stage (5) we see a purple-ish area that appears to be walled in by some sort of blue stone-like material. Pandemonium was made of a very similarly-colored material.

I did think about the fact that it might be an abandoned structure for some reason, and that she just stayed clear of Shinki and the rest of her creations when she went there, so that's why Shinki wouldn't have recognized her. I suppose this is probably the most likely option, as best as I can tell.

I really didn't want this to be the case, though. If Yuka can have her own world, and Shinki can have her own world, I wanted Mima to have her own world as well.

Honestly though, just because you have taken control of an abandoned area in Makai doesn't mean that you don't have another place to call your own. Perhaps the dream world that was Stage 3 was Mima's realm, and as Genji said it was located between the human world and Makai.

I always liked the idea that Mima had this world that looked like the night sky (which is what the background in Stage 3 does look like at some points). I had these ideas of a human from long ago who had been betrayed and killed by her fellow humans, became an evil spirit, and sought revenge. One who would often sit outside at night just to look at the night sky, finding solace there. And, consequently, her dream world looked like the place she felt most at home. And her attacks looked like the stars in the sky. And Marisa picked this up from her. Both she and Marisa have a huge astronomy theme going on, you know. Practically all of Marisa's spells are named after that stuff, not to mention Orreries Sun. And then there's the planetary background in the final battle of Touhou 2.

Maybe Mima only needed to seize that structure in Makai because it held one of the keys to her "restoration." Yeah, there are a lot of holes to be filled in with theories in the Touhou 2 plot, and Reimaden is just one of them. Mima spoke twice of her need to be "restored" somehow and that the hakurei yin-yang orbs were the key to this. Who knows exactly what this restoration is. Being that Mima wants revenge on humanity, I doubt she wanted to return to being alive as a human. So I refuse to use that theory.

Oh, and if you couldn't tell, I absolutely love Mima's character. Who knows, she might even be my #1 favorite. I remember looking through information on her in the Wiki for the first time and wondering how it was that ZUN created such an interesting character when I had not seen any characters in anime/manga/etc. that were this interesting to me.

[nintendonut888]

Heh, interesting to see a Mima fan who came to like her for who she is and seemingly not being even aware of her memetic fandom. That's an interesting theory, and not really one that can be supported or discounted. That's how it is for much of PC-98, really. Is Yuka's dream world an offshoot of the one created by Mugetsu and Gengetsu? Is the place Mima goes Makai, a dream world, or her own separate dimensional space? It's all up to you~

[illyx]

Heh, interesting to see a Mima fan who came to like her for who she is and seemingly not being even aware of her memetic fandom. That's an interesting theory, and not really one that can be supported or discounted. That's how it is for much of PC-98, really. Is Yuka's dream world an offshoot of the one created by Mugetsu and Gengetsu? Is the place Mima goes Makai, a dream world, or her own separate dimensional space? It's all up to you~

Hm... Oh, I'm quite aware of her fandom, well as far as I know. Disregarding the shrimp jokes, I like the way the fandom treats her. I especially like that attack she received in Touhou Soccer (Twilight Spark). I like how she and Yuka tend to be treated as being, at the very least, nearly as powerful as Yukari herself. They are the badass "villains" of the PC-98 era after all, and there are few characters from the Windows era that can equal them in badassery. We have Yuka who treats everything, including genocide, as a fun game to play and so she goes to Makai and beats everyone up just to pass the time. And of course there is Mima who is the only one in all of Touhou to have genuinely malevolent intentions (Utsuho's was just a spur of the moment thing, Mima really wanted revenge). Well, I'm not saying Utsuho isn't badass as hell (literally), because she definitely is awesome, but...

Oh, right. Where was I? Um, I'm completely off-topic at this point. xD Can you tell I'm just a little obsessed with Touhou? =D

One last thing. Can I get the romanization of the characters Genji used for "dream world"? Thanks!

[8lue Wizard]

Tool-assisted guestimate produces "Genmukai".

[illyx]

Hm... I'm wondering if it's the same as the characters for Yuka's dream world. Yuka's is called Mugenkan right?

And in TH4...
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Lotus_Land_Story:_Reimu%27s_Scenario#Stage_3
"ここは、夢幻世界と現実世
界の境目にある館の入り口"

Well, it does indeed share characters with this:
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Story_of_Eastern_Wonderland/Translation/Regular_Stages#Stage_3
"ここは幻夢界、魔界と現世の
狭間ですよ。"

Though I wouldn't have any idea how to tell if I'm really right or not here.

[nintendonut888]

Switching around the kanji can produce different meanings, though I'm not sure if switching the ones for "dream" and "illusion" would change the meaning in this case (if I gave you the impression I'm fluent, I'm not :fail:). Also, Mugenkan is the mansion, not the dream space.

EDIT: Giving it the ol' Rikai test, it seems "Mugen" means essentially "fantasy," while the other way they have their separate meanings. So yes, they are different things, though that doesn't address the question of whether the dream world Mugenkan is in and the one in SoEW stage 3 are the same. My theory is that like dreams, there exist any number of dream worlds (how they're made is similarly unclear, though I have my speculation on that as well). The one in LLS is different from the one in SoEW.

[illyx]

I'd agree that they'd probably be different, and I wanted them to be different, but I had to make sure they weren't the same.

Well, the text I gave from LLS didn't say "mugenkan" though, it said "dream world" in the translation.

Anyway, once speculation reaches this point, I don't think anyone would blame me if I just bent the rest according to what I think it should be. Well, most people probably couldn't prove I was wrong anyway.

I'm OCD though, so I thought I'd ask. Anyone that wants to take a shot at this is more than welcome to.

And well, I'll admit that you did make me think you were fluent, I was really impressed when you translated that stuff for me. But it's totally fine.

I didn't know it was the mansion though. I'll definitely have to remember that. I don't really even know where that term was mentioned in the canon though, searching for it on the wiki doesn't turn up very much.

[nintendonut888]

Huh. Now that you mention it, I don't think the mansion was ever named in-game. I think it's something that naturally came about from the fandom. It's worth saying that "kan," if it's the kanji I think it is, means "building," which is why I say it's the name of the mansion and not the world. It's a pretty widely used name though, so now you have me curious where it originated...

[Alfred F. Jones]

I do not know anything that can help, and so I am just observing, but this is a fascinating topic. :munch: I've never given any thought to the idea that Mima might have her own little world, though, and so I am intrigued. Sorry I can't do any more than "please keep going, this is interesting stuff".

[Koakkuri]

(Longtime lurker joining to participate in the fascinating discussion. Please be gentle.)

I've never thought about the possibility of Reimaden being a part of Makai before, but now that I think about it, it might be plausible. After all, Makai's not exactly a small realm, and the odds are there are more than one entrance into it. (Kind of OT, but there's another thing that bothers me: Exactly what part of Makai does Reimu visit HRtP? My pet theory is that HRtP Makai was a fairly small realm existed already before Shinki arrived as a place to keep Sariel sealed away. Once Shinki arrived and created Makai proper, she decided to incorporate it into her realm because why not. (Unfortunately, nobody listened to Yuugenmagan's or Elis's opinion  :3) In the end, HRtP Makai, while still technically a part of Makai, would be a very remote and practically unpopulated part of it, with a different entrance than Makai proper.)

Ahem  :blush:...Back to Reimaden then. There's a chance it's another remote corner of Makai with a different entrance than seen in MS. However, I'm quite convinced that Shinki wouldn't just smile and nod if she found out some cheeky ghost has gone and stolen a part of her domain, no matter how insignificant, and she definitely wouldn't forget about it very fast. Of course, she might have not noticed, but...It really depends on the size of Makai and how long Mima would have stayed there. After all, Shinki is hardly omnipotent. (Or is she? DUN DUN DUUN!)

Honestly though, the way Genji phrased the sentence doesn't really sound to me like they're actually going to Makai, if only because he wouldn't really have needed to mention Reimaden separately if he had already said the dream world stage 3 takes place in leads to Makai. Actually, I'm imagining that the dream world  is...well, obviously between the human world and Makai, but also between the human world and other dimensions in general. Some sort of a transitional place that makes it easier to access other worlds. (But wait, how do you enter the dream world in the first place? Erm...better not think about that too much.  :V With phantasmal mushrooms.

Eh, I'm leaning towards Reimaden being yet another dream world like Mugenkan and whatever the dream world of the lovely demon twins is called (Does it even have a name?). After all, the PC-98 games are all about dreams. How it would have come to exist, I don't know. Did Mima create it? Or did someone else? (But wait, if Mima is powerful enough to create her own dream world, I'll have to try and figure out how strong she really is all over again. Great.)

One thing's pretty clear though: Reimaden isn't in the human world. (Heh, kind of reminds me of Mima herself: nobody's 100% sure of exactly what she is, but she's definitely not human. Har.)

(By the way, if Reimaden is in Makai, that angelic midboss in Stage 4 is totally Mai. Logic? Who cares about logic? C'mon, they both have annoying laser attacks, too. :3)

[illyx]

[Hey, don't worry about it, I'm mostly just a lurker too.]

Well, I figure there's an infinite number of entrances to anywhere since it's Touhou we're talking about, since you can make a portal (or gap) to it if you really wanted to. :V Granted, most people probably can't make portals, but... Anyway, I'm just saying that the heroine in games like TH1 and 5 seems to go through portals other people already made (except if you go to old hell in TH1, then she probably just goes down a hole...). Or at least, that's my theory.

Also, I haven't thought too much about what part of Makai that is in the first game. I drew some parallels between the final battles with Shinki (TH5) and Sariel (TH1) though: Six wings, both eventually get serious and change form to some extent (Sariel's background music even changes when she gets serious, I don't think anyone else in Touhou can say that, though I don't really know), background changes as the battle goes on, etc. So I like to think that Sariel has some sort of relation to Shinki in some way, though I haven't any idea what that is (well I do have quite a bit more speculation actually, but I'd better stop before I start spouting too much crack).

Ahem, sorry for the off-topic (well, I don't think it was completely off topic though...).

As for Mima getting into and taking over Reimaden without Shinki noticing... I think that if it was an old, abandoned structure she might not notice.

However, Shinki did say in Mystic Square that she "created" Makai. We know she gave life to its inhabitants, but that's not to say she didn't also create the dimension itself (if it is a dimension and not just a remote part of Gensokyo, but I like the theory it's an actual dimension so :V ). Anyway, if you created your own dimension and not just a dream world, I'd like to think you'd know if someone entered or left it, and where they are at any given moment, as well as perhaps other details if you so desired.

You have a good point about Genji's dialogue in TH2. It really doesn't look like he would mention them separately like that otherwise... I think. Well, if Reimaden is a specific place in Makai, perhaps this was the closest portal available to it. The shortest route. I dunno.

[lol mushrooms]

Erm, I dunno about the name of Gengetsu's world, but... I was reading one of Ruro's fics and she called it "Tsukuyomi Castle" though I dunno if she made that up or not. :getdown:

Eh, the PC-98 games are all about dreams? Hm, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that... Sorry, I'm newer to the fandom than most.

I probably should not comment on Shinki's or Mima's power levels explicitly, since that might be frowned upon, but... Let me just say this: No matter what Mima says, you can't tell if it's the truth or not. In TH2, she said she would go all out the first time. Then after the heroine managed to push her back anyway, she said she was going to go all out again and used more power. At what point does Mima actually become serious? Well, we know how much of a troll she is. Just look at her dialogue in Mystic Square.

And even then, she was trying not to kill the heroine (she said it herself, she needed Reimu alive). Not to mention that Genji himself seemed to sense something about Mima and warned Reimu over and over that she'd surely be no match for Mima.

Also, as said, the fandom seems mostly convinced that Mima is Phantasm-tier (just look at Twilight Spark). Well, I don't think that's without reason though.

Well, this is just me though. I consider Mima to be a master magician, perhaps the best magician in Gensokyo.

Midboss is Mai? Hrm... The colors don't really match up, I don't think, but hey. Maybe Shinki was already getting annoyed about this intruder that kept killing whoever she sent, so she eventually sent one of her more powerful minions (Mai) and the heroine ended up taking care of Mai just cause she got in the way. That's so totally like Reimu. :V

Anyway, it seems that the reason Mima was in Reimaden in Touhou 2 was one of two things:
1. It was her home.
2. It was somehow related to the "restoration" process she wanted to undergo. In this case, maybe Reimaden has something to do with the Hakurei orbs... Somehow. Seems really odd to think about it this way, but...

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Eh, I'm leaning towards Reimaden being yet another dream world like Mugenkan and whatever the dream world of the lovely demon twins is called (Does it even have a name?). After all, the PC-98 games are all about dreams. How it would have come to exist, I don't know. Did Mima create it? Or did someone else? (But wait, if Mima is powerful enough to create her own dream world, I'll have to try and figure out how strong she really is all over again. Great.)

One thing's pretty clear though: Reimaden isn't in the human world. (Heh, kind of reminds me of Mima herself: nobody's 100% sure of exactly what she is, but she's definitely not human. Har.)

I don't think mima created it. She just resides there. That's the same as saying Utsuho created Jigoku just because she is a final boss that resides on that place. Maybe mima COULD have created her shrine, but not the entire world/dimension.

And Mima is... a soul.

Not a ghost, just a soul. It's supposed to be the purest manifestation of energy.

Btw, PC-98 canon is very messed up and full of holes. It's difficult to make accurate theories for those games.

Eh, the PC-98 games are all about dreams? Hm, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that... Sorry, I'm newer to the fandom than most.

Not all of them. THRtP takes place in makai/jigoku and Mystic Square in Makai (again)

But the rest is pretty much all about dreams.

[illyx]

Ah, I see now (about the dream thing).

...But taking Mima's words at face value (like you're doing with her dialogue in TH3)... I don't think that's necessarily such a good idea.

Even when it doesn't explicitly say she's lying, you have to take into account that it's Mima we're talking about.

Well, even if you could take her "just a soul" phrase at face value, how much does that really say? All she said was that "this form you see" is just a soul. We know that she likes to change forms a lot given her appearances in TH2, where she would sometimes have a staff and 2 wings, other times she would have a cape and 6 wings, and still others she would have none of that (if I remember right). Not to mention the huge contrast when it comes to her appearance between TH1 and 2. About the only thing that stays the same with her is her face.

Anyway, just about the only things we really know about what Mima is are...
1. She's some sort of spirit (perhaps a ghost or an evil spirit)
2. She's not human (at the least, not anymore)

Also I'd like to add that in Gensokyo, one's species (or, what sort of being they are) is not permanent in the slightest....

Mima could have even become a youkai at some point, like how Murasa used to be just a ship ghost but then became a youkai.

[Koakkuri]

Well, I figure there's an infinite number of entrances to anywhere since it's Touhou we're talking about, since you can make a portal (or gap) to it if you really wanted to. :V Granted, most people probably can't make portals, but... Anyway, I'm just saying that the heroine in games like TH1 and 5 seems to go through portals other people already made (except if you go to old hell in TH1, then she probably just goes down a hole...). Or at least, that's my theory.

Also, I haven't thought too much about what part of Makai that is in the first game. I drew some parallels between the final battles with Shinki (TH5) and Sariel (TH1) though: Six wings, both eventually get serious and change form to some extent (Sariel's background music even changes when she gets serious, I don't think anyone else in Touhou can say that, though I don't really know), background changes as the battle goes on, etc. So I like to think that Sariel has some sort of relation to Shinki in some way, though I haven't any idea what that is (well I do have quite a bit more speculation actually, but I'd better stop before I start spouting too much crack).

Ahem, sorry for the off-topic (well, I don't think it was completely off topic though...).

Haha, getting Yukari involved means you can go pretty much anywhere I guess.  But yeah, using pre-existing portals in the examples you mentioned makes the most sense.

It's a shame there's so little info about HRtP, since it's really quite fascinating with all those freaky background images and bosses.  :V You're definitely right about parallers between Shinki and Sariel, too. (And no, beyond spellcard backgrounds I can't actually think of anyone's backdrop changing like Sariel's. (By the way, what on earth's up with those backgrounds?  They're really neat and all, but very strange as well.)) I'd kind of like to hear that speculation, actually.  :3


(Even if it might be off-topic, it's still really interesting.  )

As for Mima getting into and taking over Reimaden without Shinki noticing... I think that if it was an old, abandoned structure she might not notice.

However, Shinki did say in Mystic Square that she "created" Makai. We know she gave life to its inhabitants, but that's not to say she didn't also create the dimension itself (if it is a dimension and not just a remote part of Gensokyo, but I like the theory it's an actual dimension so :V ). Anyway, if you created your own dimension and not just a dream world, I'd like to think you'd know if someone entered or left it, and where they are at any given moment, as well as perhaps other details if you so desired.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. While I highly doubt Shinki is omnipotent or anything, I'd like to believe she has some awareness of what's going on in Makai, most importantly of someone leaving or entering the dimension (It just has to be a dimension of its own. (Although having Makai be just a tiny cave in some remote corner of Gensokyo in a crack fic or something might  be funny~)) Of course, that would make sneaking into Makai borderline impossible. (Unless Shinki doesn't really bother to check on those who enter the place unless they start wreaking havoc or something. Being a goddess is a busy job after all.)

[lol mushrooms]

(Well, Stage 2 does take place in the Forest of Magic. XD)

Erm, I dunno about the name of Gengetsu's world, but... I was reading one of Ruro's fics and she called it "Tsukuyomi Castle" though I dunno if she made that up or not. :getdown:

W-wait, fanfiction with Gensetsu in it? Would mind sharing a link? (if you have one, that is.)

I probably should not comment on Shinki's or Mima's power levels explicitly, since that might be frowned upon, but... Let me just say this: No matter what Mima says, you can't tell if it's the truth or not. In TH2, she said she would go all out the first time. Then after the heroine managed to push her back anyway, she said she was going to go all out again and used more power. At what point does Mima actually become serious? Well, we know how much of a troll she is. Just look at her dialogue in Mystic Square.

And even then, she was trying not to kill the heroine (she said it herself, she needed Reimu alive). Not to mention that Genji himself seemed to sense something about Mima and warned Reimu over and over that she'd surely be no match for Mima.

Also, as said, the fandom seems mostly convinced that Mima is Phantasm-tier (just look at Twilight Spark). Well, I don't think that's without reason though.

Well, this is just me though. I consider Mima to be a master magician, perhaps the best magician in Gensokyo.

Holy crap.    Marry me, will ya? (I'm kidding, obviously, but you're probably the coolest Mima fan I've met so far.  Let's be buddies, okay? ) All your arguments are sound and I can agree with them. (well, except maybe for the Twilight Spark bit, since I've always found it a bit silly.

Spoiler:

Even if it's sort of justified in the game it's originally from.

)

Anyway, it seems that the reason Mima was in Reimaden in Touhou 2 was one of two things:
1. It was her home.
2. It was somehow related to the "restoration" process she wanted to undergo. In this case, maybe Reimaden has something to do with the Hakurei orbs... Somehow. Seems really odd to think about it this way, but...

I've never even thought about Reimaden having something with the restoration process! (Actually, I always keep forgetting the whole restoration thing.  :blush: In my de) That's actually really interesting! Got any more speculation to go with what, because I'd love to hear it. 

As for Mima's species, it's really quite impossible to tell what she is for sure. (I honestly believe that "I'm not dead." bit in PoDD was simply Mima trolling Yumemi. (because, well, it's Mima we're talking about . :V))

However, I'd like to note that in her MS good ending,

Spoiler:

Mima actually refers to herself as a ghost. (I went ahead and checked the kanji, it indeed said yuurei. The thing is, she was talking to herself, so it's very unlikely she was lying (unless she's epic enough a troll to troll herself.)  Of course, since evil spirits are a type of ghosts in Gensokyo, and Mima is referred as both in every game she's in, (minus HRtP, where she's only called a ghost (and she calls herself that, too.) ) it's still impossible to tell exactly what she is. I do believe it's quite safe to assume she's dead, though.

Wait, Murasa's a youkai now? I didn't know that! Cool!

(Oops, this got a little long. Apologies.)

[illyx]

[Sent you a long-ass PM full of the cracky speculation you wanted~ Enjoy.]

...Huh, does it really take place in the forest of magic? I never thought about it like that. Wow. xD Maybe it really is like that. After all, Marisa is her apprentice/daughter/subordinate/whatever. (I personally am gonna go with either daughter or adopted daughter, but I'm not telling you what to think)

And yeah, the fic I read by Ruro had both Gengetsu and Mugetsu, though they weren't major characters. Well, you should still read the fic though, it's FUCKING AMAZING. Link: http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=183.0

Probably the coolest Mima fan you've met so far? Dude, that's a huge compliment. Really, at least to me it is. =D

Sure, buddies. =D

Sadly, I don't have too much more speculation about the restoration thing. I can't think what it might be. I don't like to think that she wanted her life as a human back though, provided she was ever human (I believe she was, but...). See, Mima wanted revenge on humanity back in TH2. Like hell she'll do that.

[Koakkuri]

(Thanks, I enjoyed it a lot! My post count is too low to allow me to send PMs, but I'll send you a proper reply once I can.)

Well, according to the wiki Meira lives in the Forest of Magic, and the Stage 2 background does kind of look like a forest during nighttime, so I'm guessing it really does take place there. Funny, isn't it?

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it out!

High five!  =D

The restoration bit has always struck me as quite strange. (that is, when I remembered it  :V) The only interpretation of it I've ever seen of it is Mima wanting to be resurrected, (well, I do believe she was once a human, too) but like you said, it doesn't really fit with her "ultimate goal". Hmm...

Actually, looking at the script, maybe it's something much more simple? I mean, the last time we saw her she was in Jigoku, so she obviously somehow escaped from there before SoEW. (Unless she just used the backdoor or something  :3) That, along with mucking around with Reimu's shrine and whatnot probably took quite a bit of power, so maybe she just needed a rest before the final showdown to get back to her full powers? XD (Too bad we don't know what the moonphase was: I guess that purple thing in the background during the final battle could be the moon, but with all those rings it honestly looks more like Saturn or something.)

...Meh, that doesn't sound very plausible either. Dammit Zun, why couldn't you have been more clear with what you meant?  :ohdear:

Also, to keep this thing at least partially on-topic: the Stage 4 midboss. (Who's totally Mai. Who honestly isn't Mai, as funny as that might be.) Just who is she and what is she doing in Reimaden, wherever it is? Is she an angel or something completely else? What a mystery...The poor thing doesn't even have a name.

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

We know that she likes to change forms a lot

Also I'd like to add that in Gensokyo, one's species (or, what sort of being they are) is not permanent in the slightest....

I think the whole form changing thing is because touhou characters's drawings are very inconsistent, it's not only mima. Reimu, Marisa and some other characters change their outfit a lot from game to game, sometimes they only change a small detail, but there's always some difference.

And no, they aren't permanent. Alice was a human that changed into a youkai, same thing for byakuren. And there is some theory sanae isn't a human anymore, but a goddess.

But we don't know mima for certain, as I said before, there is a lot of holes. We don't even know why she wanted to take "revenge" on the humankind on touhou 2. That was ZUN's first works, so there's not much in depth on it.

[illyx]

[Don't you only need like 10 posts or something to send PM's? Well anyway, just post around a bit and send me your reply then, I'm very interested to hear what you have to say in response.]

-high fives-  :getdown:

Indeed, I had seen a Mima fic that covered it, and what they said was precisely that she wanted to be resurrected, I don't like that theory in the slightest as I said. Well, I still love a good Mima fic when I can get it though so here, I'll give you the link to the fic that made me start liking Mima in the first place:
http://usuallydead.com/wordpress/?page_id=287
It's not perfect or anything, probably an 8/10 fic as far as I'm concerned, but still I do like it a lot.

Well, at the time of Touhou 1, she was in the old hell (where Touhou 11 takes place). Not what is currently the hell maintained by the Yama. So it wouldn't have been that hard to bust out of it after all. Who knows what she needed from that place, it probably had something to do with her restoration and/or revenge.

Also, I think that Mima sending out monsters was just part of her plan for revenge and to move forward in that plan she needed to be restored somehow. So she did this to get Reimu's attention because she needed the power of the orbs.

My pet theory is that, since Reimu has ABSURDLY HUEG TALENT and tends to use new powers without even thinking (a good example is her teleportation, which Aya believes she doesn't even know she's doing)... Reimu was able to beat Mima because it was in that moment that she finally used Musou Tensei for the first time.

Otherwise, I don't believe it would have been possible for her to beat Mima.

Well, there is one other explanation and that's that she was controlled by the player. </4th wall>

Or Mima was just holding back more than she was letting on.

Well, we technically have no idea whether Mima actually wanted revenge or not, maybe she only wanted whatever that restoration was and was just fucking around with Reimu. Or maybe neither of those were her actual motives and she trolled everyone including the players. Maybe the reason why ZUN didn't give us many details is cause Mima trolled him too.

Also yeah, that thing in the background probably wasn't the moon... Besides, they were probably in another dimension, so...

And I have no idea about that midboss, but the theory that she's Mai sounds decently plausible.

Hm... And as for Synn, well all I can say is that I agree, I think. Nothing really to add or take away from that.

[Koakkuri]

(I'll be at seven posts after this one. :blush: But yeah, I'll get back to it.)

Oh hey, I've read this one before.  It's pretty good, especially some of the twists. That resurrection bit was a bit iffy though. I mean, given the backstory I could see why she felt so strongly about it, but it still clashed with her other plans. (That, and the fic kind of petered out without an ending...Too bad, I would have liked to see a conclusion.  :ohdear:)

HRtP and SA take place in the same place? I guess that's possible. I've  (But wait, wouldn't busting out the old hell be harder, since the youkai there were sealed away just like Makai and Jigoku in HRtP? ...Well, maybe not.)

I quite like that pet theory, actually. I think I'll have to adopt it.  :3  (it makes the battle sound really neat.)

Obviously, her true motive was to

Spoiler:

obtain an adorable kitten! =D

Seriously though, she does give up on the "exacting revenge on humankind"-thing pretty fast. I guess that's what happens when you forget your original motive for it.  :V

Hey, since Genji said during Stage 3 that the dream world they're in looks like outer space, and Stages 4 and 5 look like outer space too, maybe Reimaden really is another dream world! =D </grabbing for straws>

I guess there's a way the midboss could be Mai. XD

And yeah, the characters' appearances do change all the time (re: Aya's ears) 

[illyx]

Hm... I don't remember as much about that fic anymore besides general things, but yeah I agree. Well, I think it did have enough of a conclusion though. I'll admit though, I didn't really like that guy's portrayal of Yukari. It was either one of two extremes for him at any given time: either she was being a plotting heartless bitch, or she was being all nice. My interpretation of Yukari is somewhere in the middle of those two, +laziness. I don't think Yukari really makes a good enemy for Mima.

Ah, but this is really off-topic at this point, so...

Anyway, we already know that the Oni started moving to the old hell one by one, several hundred years ago. And by the time the hakurei barrier was setup (125 years ago), they were all underground. Hence why I'd say the yamas had definitely long since gone by TH1, which took place at least 115 years after the barrier was setup the way I figure it (at the current time, the barrier has been up for 125 years I'm pretty sure).

I don't think it would make sense for Reimu to break into the actual hell that's administrated by the Yama. Cause even as much of a genius as she is, and no matter how grumpy she gets, she can't take the Yama. And anyone who breaks into that place (well, it's basically a prison, so...), I can assume that the Yama would deal with them quite sternly, Miko or not.

Now I do like the idea that Mima broke out of the real hell. I really love it, cause it's as badass as it gets. These Yama we're talking about are the same ones that Yukari herself said that she, Reimu, and Yuyuko together would be no match for. The idea that Mima somehow found a hole in the security and trolled all the Yama is epic and hilarious.

However, I think the timeline here is wrong, for two reasons.
1. Now we dunno how old Mima really is, but we can safely assume, I'd think, that she's ridiculosuly old. She's lived long enough to forget much of her past. Probably not as old as Yukari, but who really knows. Yukari is old as fuck so that doesn't say Mima is young by any means. I consider Mima to be one of the "Old Hags" or whatever you want to call them. K, so however old she is, say she died as a human and got sent to hell. That must have been a really long time ago, cause humans don't live long. And the Yama don't generally keep people in hell for centuries like that, I'm pretty sure. The people in hell are just supposed to be punished for a while before they are reincarnated, right?
2. She would have never had a chance to properly mentor/raise/whatever Marisa if she only just got out of hell after TH1. I don't think the time difference between TH1 and 2 is all that huge. Probably a year or two, or maybe 3 at the max. I doubt it's more than 2 though.

Well, there is always the idea that Mima wasn't originally a human so she lived a long-ass time and only died more recently (Yama judge everyone, not just humans), or that the Yama decided to throw her in hell for much longer than most people, or something like that. Even then though, the 2nd problem still remains. Er, there's the possibility that Mima might not have been lying and actually isn't dead, but... Eh.

I guess there is also the idea that Mima managed to troll the actual current hell and get away with it though, and that Reimu got away with it because of genius-miko-hax + Mima was distracting them. That would be badass indeed.

Hey, I'm not saying Mima never broke out of the actual hell. I'm just saying that probably happened long before this, the way I see it.

LOL the cat... Yeah, the yin-yang orb can do that. xD

I also figured that the reason she gave up on it was cause she forgot, myself.

Hm... The areas in Stage 3/4/5 are all in the the same dream world? That's interesting. Hey, that's true, Genji never said they were gonna LEAVE that dream world to reach Mima.
-mind blown-

[Koakkuri]

Yeah, Yukari was a bit iffy at times (although I liked the WHAT A TWEEST related to her XD).'

But yeah, enough OT stuff for now.

It's really been that long already, huh?  I must admit,  my knowledge of SA's backstory is limited. (I quite like the game though.  :V) If that's the case though, it's unlikely that HRtP's hell was active at the time. Of course, both it and Makai had been sealed off for ages at the time...I'm starting to understand why people often ignore HRtP when it comes to speculation: it's so difficult to piece it together with everything else.  I mean, what on earth even happens in the end? Who wrecked Reimu's shrine? And how did they do it if they were sealed off in the first place?  :/

Like you were saying, Mima has most likely existed for centuries at the very least. I doubt she has spent all that time in hell, especially if the hell in HRtP is indeed defunct. (Hmm...Actually, if she is an evil spirit, she wouldn't have necessarily met a Yama right after dying, since she wouldn't have crossed the Sanzu River then. Maybe she got banished to hell only later?)

Regarding Marisa...That's one of the bigger problems in the timeline. Of course, there a chance she only knew Mima for a year or so (or as long as the time difference between the games is) , but that just doesn't sound right. 

New theory: even if Mima had been previously sent to hell, she had already gotten out of there and was just there to visit her good friend Kikuri! =D Obviously, Reimu arrived there just then and yin-yang-orb'd them both on her quest for revenge. Totally plausible y/y? 

...Yeah, I've got nothing.

Meh, I have to do some research and find out exactly how Jigoku works, this seems like an interesting subject.

(Lol, I've always imagined that Mima's gotten sealed away quite a few times during her "life": not the hell necessarily, but the same way youkai etc. get sealed away sometimes, and has ended up breaking up quite a few seals . The reason she escapes so quickly in SoEW? Practice.  )

Honestly, I wouldn't mind any of the orb's true powers...They're not bad at all.  :]

So, Reimaden might actually be a location in the dream world they enter in Stage 3? That sounds plausible. (It'd also explain the similar backgrounds. )

[illyx]

At first, the main reason I looked up info on the backstory of SA was just cause I loved the characters. It just doesn't get much more badass than Yuugi and Utsuho. And I liked Satori and Koishi a lot back then too (less so now, but they are still awesome). Well anyway, I quickly began to realize that it gets pretty complex. Here, I made another topic on that already:
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8196.0.html

And yeah, HRtP is just weird. It looks like there was a portal to Makai in the shrine that was sealed off for a long time. Well, we're pretty sure there was multiple portals throughout Gensokyo anyway though. Cause we seemed to go to different areas in TH1 and 5, and then there's the fact that the Palanquin ship (in TH12) seemed to be able to travel through dimensions to Makai simply because they were able to ascertain the location of the seal using the fragments of the Tobikura. Looks to me like we can safely say that the ship can travel wherever it wants, like Yukari. :V Says a lot about Hijiri, the person who made that ship.

But anyway, as you said it's really just too ambiguous. You could speculate all day and most answers you come up with could be a possible explanation for HRtP because there is no dialogue at all... TH2 is only a little better off, and this topic serves as a perfect example of what I mean by that...

I will never accept that Mima only knew Marisa for a year or two. Never! :V It just makes no sense. Think about it. This is the ONLY person in all of Gensokyo that Marisa has genuine respect for. She has NEVER EVER called another person "-sama." Actually, Marisa is quite disrespectful to everyone but Mima. It speaks volumes about their bond.

Who knows, maybe she is/was an evil spirit. I'd say it's totally plausible, especially since she's been called that over and over.

Her good friend Kikuri... Lol. Can Kikuri even be called a character? Does this orb even have a personality or is it just a trap powered by magic or something? Who knows.

Ah, right. You reminded me of a short Mima 4-koma comic that hasn't been fully uploaded yet (it's still awesome though):
http://danbooru.donmai.us/pool/show/2750

And yeah, it's pretty safe to assume that not too many people like Mima, so she's probably been sealed away a lot, or at least many have tried to seal her away. She's the kind of person who would tear up Makai out of boredom (well, as far as we know it was boredom), lies all the time, loves to troll people... She's just not all that pleasant to be around. In fact, if I saw her, I would be scared for my life. That's not to say I don't think she's AWESOME, of course.

[I already have one of the orbs powers, I'm underweight no matter how much I eat, but it's not that fun cause my mom bitches about me being malnourished and shit like that all the time.]

[Koakkuri]

Wow, I have a lot of reading to do. Awesome!  *Likes studying*

Heh, while I wish we knew more about HRtP, the ambiguous (read: barely existing) plot combined with the surreal backgrounds does give it a very unique charm (in my opinion, the game can actually be kind of creepy too, especially when it comes to the bosses.)

...Crack theory: HRtP is just a nightmare Reimu had! That totally explains all the inconsistences between it and all the other games, as well as why everything's so strange in it. (Dream logic rarely makes sense, after all.)  Of course, she must have met Mima on a different occasion for SoEW to make any sense...</ridiculousness>

The Palaquin ship is pretty damn amazing, that's for sure.

You're right, I can't see anyone gaining Marisa's genuine respect, especially not to that degree in a year or so. (just look at her PoDD profile!)  Of course, that makes placing HRtP in any theories even harder ^^; Admittedly though, I'm a sucker for anything regarding Mima and Marisa, so I might be a bit biased. 

Kikuri totally counts as a legitimate character. =D Then again, in my head even Yuugenmagan has a personality. (The five magic stones, on the other hand, don't. I must rectify this immediately. )

That 4koma series is probably the sweetest thing ever. It made my heart melt.

I wholeheartedly agree with this (although I do believe she can be nice to people too if she wants to. The keyword is "can".)

(Sorry to hear that, dude. Blah, why do mums always have to nag so much? >_< I can't wait 'till I can move out.)

[illyx]

I'd like studying, but school made me hate it. Ugh. Damn calculus and physics.

I'm a huge sucker for things involving Mima and Marisa too. Not shipping them, but I love to see those rare stories where Mima is raising Marisa. Sure, Mima aint exactly the most affectionate person on the earth, but I really do think she has a soft spot for Marisa somewhere. She just might not admit it, but... If anyone actually did hurt Marisa enough, I think Mima would rip them a new asshole with that crescent moon staff of hers, and that'd be getting off VERY easy.

Well, I do want to treat YuugenMagan and Kikuri as characters myself... I was just saying. Oh, and I don't treat the TH2 stage 3 boss as a character. o.o

...I admit though, it would be easier to get along with Mima than it would Yuka. That's not saying much of anything though.

[Koakkuri]

School can be a pain. 

Once again, I agree with everything you said. It's a shame there are so few stories with both of them in the first place. (Wait, people ship them? O.o)

I know. It's pretty hard when there's basically no info about them, isn't it? (I don't think anyone thinks of the five magic stones as characters. Serves them right for being such a pain in the ass.)

Pfft, true! I'm a fan of Yuuka, but holy crap I sure as hell wouldn't like to meet her or anything. XD

[illyx]

Yeah, Yuka is another of my top favorite characters. So badass.

Uh... Well, seems we ran out of things to discuss here, but hey, you can PM now. :V Let's continue the off-topic stuff there.

K so... Anyone have more input on this topic?