Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Drake on May 19, 2010, 05:47:23 PM

Title: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 19, 2010, 05:47:23 PM
Why this has spread into the accomplishments thread I have no fucking clue. Arguments go here.

UFO shot analysis (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=181.msg286450#msg286450). Notice how 1.00 power is on average at least 80% of the power of 4.00. Admittedly the options are a fair bit weaker, but it's waaaaaay less of a difference than most people make it out to be.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on May 19, 2010, 05:48:10 PM
Quote
Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit
Help Me Eirin in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 19, 2010, 05:51:21 PM
That's the point. I along with many people would rather it not be HME in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 19, 2010, 05:52:47 PM
finally a decent thread
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Arcengal on May 19, 2010, 06:27:25 PM
I wouldn't say UFO Lunatic is bullshit, which let's be honest is the main point of the thread. I'm just irritated at the multitude of deaths I have that I would have thought I could avoid, along with PSM, RT/RTG, Vajra and LFO being insurmountable in my mind. Yeah, you can bomb pretty much everything, but I haven't tried for a serious Lunatic 1cc yet because LFO *destroys* me so bad that it isn't even funny, so I would need to adopt the Kaguya plan (i.e. get to boss with an abundance of resources) to have a chance, and I know that's incredibly unlikely. Having a history of 3/107 (or something) for a midboss card (RT) makes me feel somewhat ill.

There's other small things, like the last wave of Stage 5 seemingly being a lottery in terms of a random scatter bullet killing you, or the psychological impact that seeing your weapon power going down can have ("My shots are useless, I can't win...") or the bizzare problem I have where I fail the easiest dodges ever on a frequent basis, Ichirin's 2nd for example. I don't see how I can get four Lunatic 1ccs and capture some of the stupidest shit in the series multiple times and STILL have bother with things like moving upward in a straight line at the right moment.

And yet, despite all the complaints I have, Mushihimesama's last attack looks harder than anything in the entire series, so I know it could be so much worse.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on May 19, 2010, 09:05:59 PM
I cannot argue that UFO has hard danmaku, because it does. However, as has been stated, people are too quick to make BS a synonym for really hard. I've spent over 50 hours on UFO, and there are only a few things I would truly classify as BS:

1. Parasol Star Memories with anyone other than Marisa A or Sanae B.
2. The last part of UFO stage 5, which I admit is almost completely up to luck.

Oh, there are some hard things, but I find most of UFO to be really fun and exciting, especially compared to SA.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 19, 2010, 09:37:46 PM
greatest treasure
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 19, 2010, 09:42:37 PM
greatest treasure

L2dodge
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Serela on May 19, 2010, 09:55:28 PM
you're supposed to bomb Greatest Treasure anyway for MOAR UFOS :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 19, 2010, 10:03:31 PM
king kraken strike
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 19, 2010, 10:04:34 PM
king kraken strike
>Bullets move downwards
>Move towards the areas with less bullets
>Dodge sparse bullets
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on May 19, 2010, 10:04:46 PM
you're supposed to bomb Greatest Treasure anyway for MOAR UFOS :V
I'm surprised people aren't doing this in their 1cc's.

Protip: Enter Mid-Boss!Nazrin with a Green UFO, walk out with more resources. You could chaff it up to memorization but this is nothing compared to other Shmups.

king kraken strike
:dealwithit:
I have a near 100% cap rate with ReimuA / MarisaA just fyi.
Cut: ohai
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 19, 2010, 10:06:08 PM
2nd to last ichirin
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 19, 2010, 10:09:46 PM
2nd to last ichirin
Under the third fist, over the fourth one (left, right, right, left, repeat) over and over until captured like so (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KAYmozXbY#t=0m56s).
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on May 19, 2010, 10:10:33 PM
how u dodj bulletz
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 19, 2010, 10:12:09 PM
how u dodj bulletz
PRES BUTANZ
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 19, 2010, 10:13:07 PM
2nd to last ichirin

I'm going to respond with "l2dodge" to 90% of everything you say in this thread
which is much better than the 100% of Enigma's posts that will warrant the response

just fyi.

I have a near 100% cap rate with ReimuA / MarisaA just fyi.
Yeah because they can both kill it on her way back to the right side the first time :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 19, 2010, 10:14:52 PM


:dealwithit:
I have a near 100% cap rate with ReimuA / MarisaA just fyi.
Cut: ohai

Not everyone uses ReimuA/MarisA. And you still have the bullshit of brofists covering the bullets. I can't read that shit when they're being obscured. And MarisA gets it bad anyway due to having a huge hitbox.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 19, 2010, 10:15:15 PM
bury in lake
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on May 19, 2010, 10:27:35 PM
Not everyone uses ReimuA/MarisA.
Oh, but (just about?) everybody who is complaining at the moment are using ReimuA / MarisaA / SanaeB (who can, by the way, do it in a very similar amount of time given proper usage).

bury in lake
You might as well list everything in one post.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: omgrandomnumbers on May 19, 2010, 10:29:45 PM
Wait, since when did this thread become Spellcard help? We're here to flame, goddamit.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Barrakketh on May 19, 2010, 10:44:53 PM
Let's bring this over to this thread:

The problem is that ZUN blatantly encourages this, what with the design of "Xu Fu's Dimension" forcing you to exploit tiny amulet hitboxes while streaming, and "Danmaku Paranoia" encouraging tiny movements that would result in dead Reimu if the circle hitboxes weren't so small. Players are used to amulet hitboxes and water-drop hitboxes being nearly non-existent. That's why clipdeath from them is so annoying.
XFD's amulets move straight, and the gaps between the sprites are big enough to accommodate your hitbox...and you can also avoid most of the bullets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tACAYUgYcBs#t=2m20s).  Also, spell practice.  Danmaku Paranoia only requires periodic small movements when Koishi moves (and thus there are the aimed bullets that you move around), and the gap between the bullets is still big enough for your hitbox to avoid touching the sprite.  Better still, the angle of the bullets is such that you'd have to make a fairly big mistake to hit a corner.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 19, 2010, 10:50:44 PM
You might as well list everything in one post.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 19, 2010, 11:00:43 PM
ReimuB and MarisA Patchouli.
Eternal Meek(Lunatic)

Young Demon Lord(Lunatic)
Vampire Illusion

And that's just from EoSD.

I wouldn't post the whole UFO spellcard list, but a lot of them are luck based garbage.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Ecthel on May 20, 2010, 12:23:39 AM
For all the games I've played, once I realized that I was making mistakes and the game could, in fact, be beaten, I would get a clear shortly afterward. Coincidence?

Also, for shmups specifically, once I started being more liberal with bombs, I often got much farther. Coincidence?

PS: Don't forget difficulty levels!
<smartass>
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards
Wait, this has the easy cards too... Sorry man  :V
</smartass>
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 20, 2010, 01:08:00 AM
ReimuB Patchouli
Opener is done the same way as everyone else. Bury in Lake you just dodge the small bullets then follow the path Patchy sets for you. There are never any actual walls, just your reaction time to read the path. Second non is done the same way as everyone else. Green Storm is dodging. Water Elf is dodging, stay under Patchouli at all times. Mercury Poison is dodging. Emerald Megalith is dodging, stay under Patchouli.
MarisA Patchouli
Sylphae Horn is dodging. Agni Radiance is dodging, the fire's hitbox IS NOT THE SAME AS GLOWY BULLETS. Lava Cromlech is dodging. Forest Blaze is dodging. Emerald Megalith is dodging, stay under Patchouli.
Eternal Meek(Lunatic)
Dodge. Use safespot if truly needed.
Young Demon Lord(Lunatic)
Follow Remi. Choose the proper space to dodge properly in. Stay far away from the medium bullets.
Vampire Illusion
Dodge. This one I agree can be very iffy and will form walls on you given a high enough rank. The bullets are slow, so bomb it if you see a wall. You don't die out of fucking nowhere.
And that's just from EoSD.
Good, because everything you've mentioned so far is answered with "dodge". You're supposed to give bullshitty cards, not ask for help because you can't beat them. I do agree that Vampire Illusion can be crap at high rank, but with the amount of help you need on this game you can guarantee it'll be fairly low anyways.
I wouldn't post the whole UFO spellcard list, but a lot of them are luck based garbage.
Bring it, princess.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 01:12:41 AM
And how is Eternal Meek even humanly possible to dodge consistently without the safespot?

I have captured everything Lunatic Patchouli has except for Sylphae Horn High Level. That doesn't mean the attacks aren't garbage.

I do that on Young Demon Lord. I've still been walled though.

Doesn't it having a high chance of forming walls make it BS? And is Vampire Illusion even affected by Rank? I thought Remilia's only card that was affected by rank was Young Demon Lord.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 20, 2010, 01:27:46 AM
And how is Eternal Meek even humanly possible to dodge consistently without the safespot?

I have captured everything Lunatic Patchouli has except for Sylphae Horn High Level. That doesn't mean the attacks aren't garbage.
You seem to be mistaking 'I do not like this spell card' and/or 'this spell card is too difficult for me to clear consistently' for 'this is a bad attack'. You should probably look into that. :V
Seriously, Drake just outlined pretty much the main point; you actually have to just dodge things, and if you can't do that, practice until you can. I still have some problems with Sylphae Horn High Level, and I'm not a huge fan of it, but there is nothing at all wrong with the attack; I simply need to improve.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 20, 2010, 01:31:53 AM
Young Demon Lord will throw a concentrated spread of bullets. If you do not have enough room to dodge, you will likely die. You will not likely die if you choose a proper spot to stay in. I already agreed that Vamp Illusion can be BS if you don't tackle it properly. As said above, there is nothing preventing you from just bombing it if it throws a wall. It does not throw walls at you absolutely every time you play, either.

But dodge consistently? No one's saying anything about dodging consistently, or easily, for that matter. As far as I can see, you're expecting to be able to dodge absolutely everything in the game without any problems. This will not happen, ever. Touhou on Lunatic are not easy games. You need your resources. If you seriously expect the game to hand you captures on a silver platter you're terribly wrong. IT IS HARD. DEAL WITH IT. USE YOUR FUCKING BOMBS. I just captured Eternal Meek, on Lunatic, on my second attempt in Stage Practice. Practice. Practice ittttttttt. You get better at dodging, you dodge the damn bullets. It's that simple. I don't think you seem to be grasping the concept of "hard game". When all you need to do in an attack is dodge, you dodge the bullets. There is no garbage involved whatsoever. If you aren't good enough, you bomb. You don't bomb, you die. You practice, you get better.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on May 20, 2010, 01:46:37 AM
And how is Eternal Meek even humanly possible to dodge consistently without the safespot?

You capture it with inhuman reflexes. :3

Now, let me get something off my chest now that an appropriate thread has been made for it.

Subterranean Animism. This is one of my least favorite Touhou games, and only above SoEW in my liking of the shmups. I have never understood the appeal of this game, especially when people dislike UFO so much. Why, you ask? Well, let's go in depth. Keep in mind this is only my opinion, which should invalidate anything I say right off the bat. :V

First, the music. A lot of people really like the music in this game, but I...DO NOT. :o Granted, this IS ZUN, so there's very little of the music I outright dislike. However, the music feels a little less inspired than usual. Songs like Yugi's theme feel a little half-hearted, and the stage 1 theme is outright grating. For every Last Remote there is a Heartfelt Fancy. It doesn't help that the worst songs play over the worst parts of the game. I could go on, but SA's music doesn't do it for me overall.

The lives system is also something that has annoyed me for a long time. The lives system is built with a cruel logic behind it: The people who are awesome at the game get to be more awesome, reaching max lives by stage 6. The people who are not so good on the other hand are handed less lives because they survive less attacks, digging a big hole for themselves. The power system is also sadistic in the way it handles deaths. Satori is a great example: It you die between 3.00 and 4.00 power against her first three attacks, you'll come out with 3.20 power. Before her three recollection spells, Satori gives you .75 power, leaving you with...3.95 power. Each spell card break gives you .50 power back, meaning that unless you capture some spell cards, you'll NEVER reach full power in this fight. The game loves to do this, and IMO it is worse than UFO's power system, which is at least consistent in how much you lose.

Next, the general stage design. SA relies on memorization much more than the rest of the shmups, and it shows. Stuff like stage 3 and stage 4 are downright impossible until you learn the patterns. Unfortunately, the fact that the patterns can be learned is a poor excuse for patterns that are full of clipdeath. Border of Wave and Particle is a particularly guilty example of this. Because it's a 20 second repeating pattern that is static, most people tease me for finding it hard. Even if it's static, the pattern, particularly the "wave" part, are very easy to clip. The attack has too large a health bar and combined with this, even I find myself using the safespot to avoid ruining a 1cc attempt.

The big part of the game that ticks me off is the obscene amount of areas that kill you via clipdeath. Turning to stage 4 once again, the laser spams are pretty much down to luck for short-ranged Reimu A, as the lasers may very well not leave an opening that can be worked with. Uncontainable Nuclear Reaction and Subterranean Sun both take their difficulty almost entirely from forcing you to make precision movements through a bunch of bullet types with tight hitboxes. Without exception every Touhou has this to an extent, but SA takes this to ridiculous levels. Parsee's sole avenue of difficulty comes from random clips. Clipdeath after clipdeath is simply not fun in my book.

And that's the biggest issue of all: The attacks just are not fun. When I thought about it really hard, I could not think of a single boss in this game I could say I thoroughly enjoyed. The one I play the most is Satori, but that is because I am a masochist and for some reason like to bang my head against a fight I really dislike. Every stage and every boss has a gimmick that is either annoying or unfun, and all rely on clipdeath. Therefore, I conclude my reasoning on why I dislike Subterranean Animism.

tl;dr: SA SUX U ALL TEH SUXXORZ
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on May 20, 2010, 02:14:07 AM
The big part of the game that ticks me off is the obscene amount of areas that kill you via clipdeath. Turning to stage 4 once again, the laser spams are pretty much down to luck for short-ranged Reimu A, as the lasers may very well not leave an opening that can be worked with.
... I don't get what you mean by the lasers not leaving "an opening that can be worked with" (considering the static nature of said lasers and enemies), however:
Quote from: Baity
Microtapping is a skill :3c

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards
If you're saying all of them, then I'm going to be laughing for hours on end. That said, of the 26 possible Spell Cards that you face in a normal run, I would say that 24 out of those 26 are straight-up dodging ones; 23 if you know how to deal with a certain Spell Card properly. The other two are semi- and total-memorization Spell Cards. Out of all the Spell Cards faced in Extra, only one Spell Card is memorization-based.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: RainfallYoshi on May 20, 2010, 03:37:15 AM
Virtue of Wind God wins this thread.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 20, 2010, 03:40:03 AM
Virtue of Wind God wins this thread.

If this thread was named "the only reason to play MoF", then yes, it would win.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 03:47:21 AM
I can name 5 other reasons

Nitori
Peerless Wind God
Sanae
Suwako
Most of the stages

I just wish there was spell practice so that I wouldn't have to redo the stage when I fail Terukuni and Suwa War though. Also would make doing stuff with other cards much quicker.


And VoWG is pretty much the definition of a fair card, though I hate it because it often shoots solid walls that are hard to read quickly enough.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 20, 2010, 03:58:14 AM
stand still, stream, dodge, dodge, dodge, follow nitori around
dodge
dodge, micromem (ew), dodge, stream, dodge, dodge, loleasy
lolwat
learn them you dummy
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 03:59:38 AM
I wasn't complaining about any of those.

But if you want complaining,

HRtP(the entire game)
Marisa(SoEW)
Mima
SoEW Extra
PoDD Lunatic
LLS Lunatic Stage 5 preboss waves
Yuka final phases
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 20, 2010, 04:27:05 AM
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil:_Stage_4_Spell_Cards

and nitori is also gay
hell, the entire MoF is along with SA and UFO

we need more PCB.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on May 20, 2010, 04:40:17 AM
Ikaruga is the WORST GAEM EVAR
I beat TOUHOU HARD O MODO and ZUN told me that HARDO MODO player is BEST STG PLAYER IN THE UNIVERSE
But I cant beat Ikaruga on IJJI MODO, that means it is BADLY DESIGNED GAEM OMG
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on May 20, 2010, 04:46:04 AM
I beat TOUHOU HARD O MODO
But I cant beat Ikaruga on IJJI MODO,

I am seriously guilty of not being able to 1cc Ikaruga.
Anyways, UFO definitely has relatively harder attacks than the rest of the series. But if you're going around trying to consistently capture every single god damn card in every single 1cc you try, you're going to fail. I've gotten to Byakuren's curvy lasers without continuing solely because I used a BOMB whenever I felt uncomfortable with new shit - namely Shou's first two noncards and maybe RTG.
There's a reason that UFO hands out resources on a silver platter. It's definitely not handing out spellcard captures.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Heartbeam on May 20, 2010, 05:50:30 AM
we need more PCB.

Yeah, go ahead and bring them up.  Bring them up!

PCB stage six fairies.  I'll shoot myself down already.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zetzumarshen on May 20, 2010, 06:23:50 AM
PCB stage six fairies.  I'll shoot myself down already.

You know there are plenty ways to avoid part that, right?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on May 20, 2010, 06:25:00 AM
AFAIK ... a well-placed bomb, Sakuya, or mad skillz :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Silent Harmony on May 20, 2010, 07:12:01 AM
EoSD was a horrible introduction to the windows series. Seriously, rank system? Random attacks? Score-based life system? Musically half the themes are grating (I'm sorry but Red Cherry sucks!)


And I agree with Donut, SA isn't that great. I love the soundtrack, and it has my favorite Easy S4 so far (limited experience), but so many parts of the game bug me. Especially the power:health relationship, especially when you reach Utsuho. Her attacks last way too long at 4.00, go after them low power and you may as well aim for a time-out.

Also how could you miss the worse part: gimmick shot types!
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 20, 2010, 07:23:45 AM
EoSD was a horrible introduction to the windows series. Seriously, rank system? Random attacks? Score-based life system?
...I'm, err, not seeing the problem with any of these things. :V Mind expanding on that?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Silent Harmony on May 20, 2010, 07:43:51 AM
...I'm, err, not seeing the problem with any of these things. :V Mind expanding on that?

You seriously see nothing wrong with a rank system? Seriously?

The others are personal peeves. Score-based lives reward better play (see: capturing cards) which sucks given the bomb-more advice people love to give. And if you do capture, you face the previously-mentioned rank system.

Random bullets suck when you can't read and dodge quickly. I for one will admit I need to work on that. (I also hate how so many cards have bullets change direction and/or fly sideways starting at Boss-Meiling, but again probably me sucking).

Maybe I'm wrong, all I know is I haven't touched the game for months (mostly due to the above).
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 20, 2010, 09:12:33 AM
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Spell_Cards

Brilliant! You made me laugh really good there. UFO cards are either easy and dull or hard and annoying. I'd prefer DDP over many UFO cards.

EoSD was a horrible introduction to the windows series. Seriously, rank system? Random attacks? Score-based life system? Musically half the themes are grating (I'm sorry but Red Cherry sucks!)

EoSD has some of the better game design in the series. Sure it has its parts were you are best off just bombing but the boss fights are fun. A score based life system means that getting lives are easy as pie (which is ideal compared to having to fight for them in a game that's already hard to begin with). The rank system can admittedly screw you over though.

About the music. Matter of taste. Imo, the soundtrack is equal to that of UFO except with less dull themes. (Lunate Elf > The Sealed Cloud Route and Anything EoSD has > Fires of Hokkai )

Quote
And I agree with Donut, SA isn't that great. I love the soundtrack, and it has my favorite Easy S4 so far (limited experience), but so many parts of the game bug me. Especially the power:health relationship, especially when you reach Utsuho. Her attacks last way too long at 4.00, go after them low power and you may as well aim for a time-out.

Also how could you miss the worse part: gimmick shot types!

Never killed my lunatic 1cc's. In SA you only run out of power if you bombspam. If you die you even replenish power if you are low on it. And you don't lose power if you have 4.00

And about gimmick shot types. Yeah, the shots in SA are pretty bad. I only need one good weapon though. I tend to always stick to one shot type when playing. ReimuB in EoSD and PCB, Reimu & Yukari in IN, ReimuB in MoF, ReimuA in SA and in UFO: ReimuA. (SanaeB for extra)



Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 20, 2010, 09:14:00 AM
First of all, in EoSD in particular you don't need to do anything special to get all the extends. Second, advice given to score and advice given to survive are usually quite different. Bombing advice I give is for people who complain that they can't 1cc or die multiple times on a card, when the problem is they aren't good enough to dodge it. Cheesing the game through bombspam is just demonstration of how well you can survive on bombs alone. Third, rewarding the player for playing well just makes too much sense to not like. You don't reward the player for doing an acceptable job. I know you mean it sucks due to people telling you to bomb for survival, but "bombing for survival" and "bombing to play well" go somewhat in the same category. You try to survive: you bomb if you're going to die so you don't die. Even if you don't capture a card, as long as you don't bomb everything (and even then) you're going to do well, and survive, which is technically playing well. For EoSD, the amount of star points you get can be a very good source of points anyways.

Rank system is for making sure you don't glide through the game. Rank system itself isn't going to totally ruin a 1cc, and it's used in many other shmups. If you die or bomb in EoSD, rank goes down because you're having a hard time. If you capture, rank goes up because you're having it too easy. It's a balancing method, even if it isn't absolutely perfect.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 20, 2010, 09:17:35 AM
It is adviceable to plan bombs ahead though. Its not a good idea to try capturing Killing Doll if you have bombs for example. Unless you are very confident in your skills.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 20, 2010, 10:03:24 AM
You seriously see nothing wrong with a rank system? Seriously?
Indeed. It's a perfectly valid way of designing a shmup; some shmups have static difficulty, and some have varying difficulty based on your performance. I'd go so far as to say there are more danmaku shmups with a rank system than those without; look at CAVE, Psikyo and Raizing (especially Battle Garegga, where the name of the game is intentionally dying to ease up the rank and score for more extends :P). Everything in EoSD is still perfectly dodgeable at max rank - the game just eases up on you if you fail to dodge a pattern to make sure you don't die too often. Hell, you can even reduce the rank via deathbombing and keep your resources.

In short, no, I see nothing wrong with a rank system (despite that they irritate me at times, they're still absolutely fair). What do you see wrong with a rank system?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 20, 2010, 10:18:41 AM
rather

what's wrong with score based extends

that's how 90% of shmups work
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 20, 2010, 11:05:07 AM
rather

what's wrong with score based extends

that's how 90% of shmups work

Answer: There is nothing wrong with score based extends. Maybe some will complain that it makes the game too easy but it won't hurt anyones gameplay performance i'm sure. I am by no means a king of scoring and my 1 billion points in PCB aren't really impressive if you compare to those who are playing actively for score.

Anyone can get all the points necessary for extends. What is it in MoF? 150 million? I had over 500 million at the end of my 1cc which didn't really go that well at all.

In EoSD i had a silly 120 million points at the end of my run but all extends have been gotten at 80 millions so it doesn't matter.

PCB and IN's point based extend system makes it so that everyone can get all available extends. That's how it should be.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 20, 2010, 11:16:27 AM
PCB and IN's point based extend system makes it so that everyone can get all available extends. That's how it should be.
I like it better when reaching extends is an accomplishment.
Title: Merp
Post by: Tengukami on May 20, 2010, 12:14:01 PM
And then there's eXceed2nd, which combines score-based extends and the ranking system.

Thanks for making this thread, btw. It was much needed, and will undoubtedly be an endless source of largely unintentional comedy. I've shout-laughed several times already.
Title: Re: Merp
Post by: Bananamatic on May 20, 2010, 12:24:46 PM
And then there's eXceed2nd, which combines score-based extends and the ranking system.

Thanks for making this thread, btw. It was much needed, and will undoubtedly be an endless source of largely unintentional comedy. I've shout-laughed several times already.
how many times to me
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Helion on May 20, 2010, 04:09:36 PM
Indeed. It's a perfectly valid way of designing a shmup; some shmups have static difficulty, and some have varying difficulty based on your performance. I'd go so far as to say there are more danmaku shmups with a rank system than those without; look at CAVE
Well, Dodonpachi rank doesn't make all that difference, IIRC. Also I noticed that max rank EoSD on some things really likes to screw you over pretty bad. Not everything, but a few of Patchouli's cards, and I think one of China's. I also think Remilia to be hellish on max rank.

In short: I like that the game increases the challenge if I'm breezing through it, but I don't like things becoming nigh-impossible, that's adjusting too far.
Title: Re: Merp
Post by: Zengeku on May 20, 2010, 05:03:02 PM
Ikaruga is the WORST GAEM EVAR
I beat TOUHOU HARD O MODO and ZUN told me that HARDO MODO player is BEST STG PLAYER IN THE UNIVERSE
But I cant beat Ikaruga on IJJI MODO, that means it is BADLY DESIGNED GAEM OMG

HEY! That's my line! Don't rip of my good old trolling stunt. (Which i'm not really proud of but still...)

And then there's eXceed2nd, which combines score-based extends and the ranking system.

Thanks for making this thread, btw. It was much needed, and will undoubtedly be an endless source of largely unintentional comedy. I've shout-laughed several times already.

Exceed 2nd is awesome!

And i do indeed believe that this thread was necessary as well. Lets keep the arguing about what games suck out of the achievements/raging thread eh?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 05:15:35 PM
I liked Ikaruga until I tried chaining. Now I think that game is garbage. Actually, outside of the 4th and 5th stages, it is garbage.

And yes, I hate the UFO power system. ReimuA, ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA are completely useless for stages. ReimuB,MarisaB, SanaeA, and SanaeB are useless for killing bosses

No other Touhou relies on clipdeaths to screw your game up nearly as much as this. SA completely fair. MoF, mostly fair. IN, mostly fair. PCB, mostly fair. EoSD- more fair than UFO but also has the issues of random boss movements sometimes leading to impossible patterns. HRtP is agreed on as BS for anyone not in denial, SoEW is known for BS moments, PoDD Lunatic is BS. Very little BS in LLS or MS.

Don't get me started on UFO's power system which will lead to having to time out most things while trying to practice and makes actual runs not fun along with the crappy deaths. The only other crappy power system in the series is in SA, and only for Marisa/Alice.

Oh, and here's one most of us can agree is bullshit. PoFV Lunatic AI, especially Shikieki.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Helion on May 20, 2010, 05:17:34 PM
As already said in this thread, UFO power system is pretty good, basically at lowest power you don't have options, and it doesn't make as much of a difference as in the other games.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 05:20:21 PM
It makes a huge difference if you're playing SanaeB or MarisA, which happen to be my 2 most played shot types. Each lost power is the game makes things way worse.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Silent Harmony on May 20, 2010, 06:15:22 PM
Not surprised at all I'm at odds with the shmup community.

First off, rank system can be good in theory. It keeps things hard for good players, and settles things for bad. However, the fact that one needs to die multiple times to earn a 1cc seems....counterproductive to me. A first-time 1cc death should come because you screw up, not because the game decides you're doing too good. It you could control it better*, or adjust it*, or at least see it, maybe I wouldn't be so bitter.

And score based systems are, again, a theory/execution problem. I seem to remember someone saying tHRtP's Easy mode actually gives less resources because of it. This thread got me to look back, and yes it seems he fixed that problem (I over-estimated the bonus points). I guess the problem I have is there's no easy-to-find guide to how EoSD's life system works (it took me weeks to find out you get your first extra life at 10M).

I guess in the end, I just hate how these two systems play out. You need to play well (as in not die) to get far enough in the game to get lives, yet you need to die to make the game manageable enough for you to play well.

But, from what I'm reading, this is how shmups work. *sigh* Not going to keep me from playing the genre, but doesn't mean I have to completely agree with it.


/flamesuit

*Outside of dieing. Like an out-of-game option.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 07:02:06 PM
Rank is one of those ideas that sounds good but is pretty much always terrible.

Want to know a game with a good rank system? Deathsmiles. If you suck, you can pick level 1. If you're decent, level 2. If you're good level 3. For Black Label, level 999.


Here's one of many possible examples of why rank in Touhou is garbage. Mercury Poison. At max rank, this thing is easy. At low rank, it's a clusterfuck.


Oh, and Battle Garegga is stupid anyway. Suiciding should never have to be part of your survival strategy. How the hell does that make sense? Encouraging suiciding in any way in a game is just dumb.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on May 20, 2010, 07:27:49 PM
Oh, and Battle Garegga is stupid anyway. Suiciding should never have to be part of your survival strategy. How the hell does that make sense? Encouraging suiciding in any way in a game is just dumb.
WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO TEACH TO OUR CHILDREN
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azure Lazuline on May 20, 2010, 07:36:24 PM
No mention of Mokou's "flying cards of extremely fast death" nonspell? I know you can just bomb-spam it and that extra stage gives you too many resources so it's not a problem, but I've honestly never seen anyone capture it before. It always seemed out-of-place in that battle.

Also, rank system: I'm going to have to agree that it's a good idea with bad execution. Everything else I want to say has already been said, though. I dislike fast bullets in general (like BoWaP and such), but in most cases, I know that's a problem with me not being able to dodge rather than the actual attacks.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 20, 2010, 07:42:31 PM
Well, Dodonpachi rank doesn't make all that difference, IIRC. Also I noticed that max rank EoSD on some things really likes to screw you over pretty bad. Not everything, but a few of Patchouli's cards, and I think one of China's. I also think Remilia to be hellish on max rank.

In short: I like that the game increases the challenge if I'm breezing through it, but I don't like things becoming nigh-impossible, that's adjusting too far.
DDP's rank is very subtle because it increases slowly over the course of the entire game. If you're not that great at DDP you probably won't notice it at all; however, if you no-death up to say, Stage 5 or 6 and then die, the difference is pretty noticable. Keeps things a challenge for the players trying to keep their max bomb multiplier all the way into the second loop (which is necessary for the really high scores). As for EoSD's rank, yeah, it's a pretty significant difference. Personally, I'd prefer it to be a little more subtle, but everything is still perfectly doable at high rank. Also, as far as I'm aware, not all of Remilia's spell cards are affected by rank - pretty sure her first two are and her final two (the ones significantly harder than the others) aren't. I don't think Vampire Illusion is affected but if it is it still ends up playing out around the same way regardless of what rank it's at, so. :V
It makes a huge difference if you're playing SanaeB or MarisA, which happen to be my 2 most played shot types. Each lost power is the game makes things way worse.
What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it! It's a death with that power loss you hate. Look again. The power loss is now completely insignificant!

In all seriousness, please, please give the shot analysis (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=181.msg286450#msg286450) a look over before spouting this kind of stuff. For MarisaA, dying and hitting 3.00 power will bring you to just under 95% power, and dying again to bring you to 2.00 power will still leave you at about 90%. The power losses for SanaeB are even more insignificant; at focused range (where you'll be spending most of your boss fights), 3.00 power is a little over 95% of the damage of 4.00 power, while 2.00 is a little over 90%. The only times it'll make any kind of significant difference is if you're abusing the spread shot on the stages and completely neglecting your base shot where most of the damage actually comes from (which is pretty much doing it wrong) or if you're using the focused/unfocused shotgun on bosses, and if this happens the chances are you've bombed anyway and would destroy the boss' health bar regardless of how much damage your shot is doing since SanaeB's bomb is what it is. :V
Rank is one of those ideas that sounds good but is pretty much always terrible.

Want to know a game with a good rank system? Deathsmiles. If you suck, you can pick level 1. If you're decent, level 2. If you're good level 3. For Black Label, level 999.
No, no, you're getting mixed up. That is something different; it's an option you pick at the beginning of each level, and it's called 'difficulty'.
Here's one of many possible examples of why rank in Touhou is garbage. Mercury Poison. At max rank, this thing is easy. At low rank, it's a clusterfuck.
Yeah, that's fair enough. ZUN didn't exactly get it perfect by any means. :V
Oh, and Battle Garegga is stupid anyway. Suiciding should never have to be part of your survival strategy. How the hell does that make sense? Encouraging suiciding in any way in a game is just dumb.
Pssh, Garegga is an excellent game. Its system is incredibly unconventional, but it works very well in the game's context and has a lot of depth to it - the entire game is built around the rank, and everything you may choose to do affects it in some form, including shooting, collecting items, destroying things, not dying, etc., so it's very cerebral and you have to plan your actions out well. It seems odd at first, but it's a very well designed game. Mind telling me why it doesn't work instead of just labelling it garbage without backing your point up? It's not Touhou, it isn't meant to be a survival game; it's a scoring game, and the survival is secondary to that since you get an extend for every million points you earn.
No mention of Mokou's "flying cards of extremely fast death" nonspell? I know you can just bomb-spam it and that extra stage gives you too many resources so it's not a problem, but I've honestly never seen anyone capture it before. It always seemed out-of-place in that battle.

Also, rank system: I'm going to have to agree that it's a good idea with bad execution. Everything else I want to say has already been said, though. I dislike fast bullets in general (like BoWaP and such), but in most cases, I know that's a problem with me not being able to dodge rather than the actual attacks.
I wouldn't call Mokou's rings of death attack unfair or bullshit by any means, it's perfectly doable given the requisite amount of skill; having said that, I agree that it's pretty stupidly placed in my opinion since it's far harder than pretty much anything else she'll throw at you. It seems more like a challenging Lunatic attack than something that belongs in Extra. :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 08:20:32 PM
I wasn't saying it was a rank system.

I'm just saying that the selectable difficulty for each stage was a great thing. Not sure if there's a seperate rank system, but it's still a good thing.

It would definitely be interesting to be able to play a Touhou or other shmup like that. Okay, I want to do some good scoring or I'm good at this level on Lunatic, okay let's go down to Hard, okay this level is garbage on Hard, so Normal. Okay back to Lunatic or Hard. Of course, a Normal/Hard/Lunatic 1cc would need to pick the same difficulty or higher the whole way through.


And not everyone likes having to play for score, so those of us who don't would find Garegga's rank to be crap.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 20, 2010, 08:27:09 PM
and the survival is secondary to that since you get an extend for every million points you earn.

 It seems more like a challenging Lunatic attack than something that belongs in Extra. :V

ZUN should implement that it feature in Touhou :V

And about Blue Rings of Death. I think they are more than a challenging lunatic attack. Its far harder than any attack in the entirity of Imperishable Night. I don't think anyone could capture that attack if it wasn't so short. (Well, someone could probably but that's beside the point.)

It might actually be one of the hardest attacks in the series.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: RainfallYoshi on May 20, 2010, 08:28:35 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of PoFV in this topic yet. The whole "hidden timer where the CPU dodges everything" thing kinda calls for it.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 20, 2010, 08:31:10 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of PoFV in this topic yet. The whole "hidden timer where the CPU dodges everything" thing kinda calls for it.
Wait what.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 20, 2010, 08:52:22 PM
somebody once said

"life is like battle garegga, if you kill man life becomes harder and the only way to make it easier is to kill yourself"
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 20, 2010, 09:19:41 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of PoFV in this topic yet. The whole "hidden timer where the CPU dodges everything" thing kinda calls for it.

Probably because i don't play PoFV.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Ecthel on May 20, 2010, 09:35:24 PM
we need more PCB.
Am I the only person who doesn't like PCB?... I guess I should probably start running  :derp:

Quote
And yes, I hate the UFO power system. ReimuA, ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA are completely useless for stages. ReimuB,MarisaB, SanaeA, and SanaeB are useless for killing bosses

Reimu B, Marisa A, and Sanae A useless for stages? Reimu and Sanae can trivialize some sections with their homing, and MarisA is excellent for UFO collection and some enemy patterns. For bosses, ReimuB can kill some hard cards more quickly due to homing (Most Valuable Vajra hurr ). Marisa B... Okay you got me there. Sanae A also has homing benefits to a lesser extent and Sanae B's bomb + shotgun can nullify almost every spell card in the game.

About Garegga: Garegga doesn't reward bad play; it has a different definition of good play.  Thing is, being a shmup means a very narrow set of constraints, of which Garegga violates a few. My main problem is dark bullets on dark backgrounds.  :/

Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 20, 2010, 09:40:19 PM
About Garegga: Garegga doesn't reward bad play; it has a different definition of good play.  Thing is, being a shmup means a very narrow set of constraints, of which Garegga violates a few. My main problem is dark bullets on dark backgrounds.  :/
Give Garegga Type 2 a try; it's a revised edition with bright yellow bullets rather than dark bullets for the most part. However, it doesn't include the hidden characters, so you might want to keep with Type 1 if you prefer them over the regular ships.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on May 20, 2010, 09:49:20 PM
ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA . . . completely useless for stages
...
(http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt263/BaitySM/Image%20Response/DonutYouLostMe.jpg)

keep with Type 1 if you prefer them over the regular ships.
GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 10:22:39 PM
But you can't have bombs for every spellcard in the game.

And without bombs, you're not shotgunning, which makes her damage pretty bad then.

And if using SanaeB's spread for stages is doing it wrong, how am I supposed to be doing it right? Actually, I don't ignore the frontal shot, but the spread is important for me too.

Homing doesn't seem anywhere near as effective though. It's crap for destroying UFO's and doesn't cover as much as spread does.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on May 20, 2010, 10:27:35 PM
But you can't have bombs for every spellcard in the game.
You'd be surprised how far they get you, actually. My UFO Lunatic 1cc involved one card capture in the entirety of the last three stages (Murasa's first), and some required a death and a bomb, or multiple bombs.
And without bombs, you're not shotgunning, which makes her damage pretty bad then.
It's not as powerful as a forward focus type for that kind of thing, but the damage is still very respectable and higher than some other types.
And if using SanaeB's spread for stages is doing it wrong, how am I supposed to be doing it right?
The spread is useful, but it's not your main source of damage by any means; it's nice for taking out the little popcorn enemies to your sides and the like, but for tougher enemies I find you're usually going to be relying on your main shot if you want to take them out fast enough.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 20, 2010, 11:20:15 PM
Enigma, I think now is the time to bust out every replay that you think the game has screwed you over. Also, a UFO run of ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA. I would say SanaeB as well just for good measure.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 11:26:30 PM
Do you think I save replays of these?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on May 20, 2010, 11:28:15 PM
Well, you need proof for these kinds of things, don't you? Replays are a great way of showing us this.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 20, 2010, 11:37:14 PM
Sanae B cruises through stages with absolutely no opposition, thus every other shot type that actually has to dodge FUCKING SUCKS

we shuld make a shot type that has huge spread and 400 dps that homes in on all enemies and kills them b4 they shute bulelts, that wuld be awsum fun game and ttly balenced

I was having a hard time pinpointing why you just constantly spew out the worst possible trolling ever, Enigma, and I think I've finally found a reason.

You are fucking spoiled, Enigma.

Fucking.

Spoiled.

shute-an gaems r hard, welcome 2 them
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 11:43:21 PM
Well, I do prefer SakuyaB in PCB, though I can also play ReimuB and MarisA somewhat okay, not enough to 1cc Lunatic though.

And I don't want shottypes that trivialize everything. I don't need Yuyuko's spread in IN, and Sakuya's spread doesn't help as much for me when I try Scarlet Team. I can play any shottype except MarisA in MoF. My SA Lunatic 1cc was with ReimuC, one of the worst shots in the game, which goes against your argument entirely.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on May 20, 2010, 11:51:36 PM
Reimu C? Worst shot type?

Haaaaaaah.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 20, 2010, 11:55:35 PM
one of the worst, not THE WORST.

That goes to either MarisA due to the reverse focus that isn't good unlike IN's Netherworld Team and messed up power or MarisaC.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Barrakketh on May 21, 2010, 12:06:58 AM
Do you think I save replays of these?
If it happens as often as you make it sound like I imagine it wouldn't take but a couple of days to rack up quite a few replays.



About UFO's power chart...is there any good reason to use SanaeA?  With the exception of the times that you're not under a boss it looks like she does less damage than SanaeB at long range, doesn't have the shotgun option (plus froggy nuke for more opportunities to burn down a card), and doesn't rape stages like SanaeB.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on May 21, 2010, 12:17:10 AM
About UFO's power chart...is there any good reason to use SanaeA?  With the exception of the times that you're not under a boss it looks like she does less damage than SanaeB at long range, doesn't have the shotgun option (plus froggy nuke for more opportunities to burn down a card), and doesn't rape stages like SanaeB.
Unless you're at a very specific angle, you're only going to get one frog on the boss which means that you're either getting 25~ dps or 0.
With SanaeA, you're guaranteed to get 54 DPS pretty much no matter where you are.
Homing shots are homing.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Ecthel on May 21, 2010, 12:33:54 AM
Quote
WORDS WORDS WORDS RAWR
(http://shii.org/yukkuri/yukkuri)
Seriously people, take it easy!
 :3

(I'm not sorry that I used that meme.)
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 21, 2010, 02:07:51 AM
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT TAKING IT EASY

ONLY ANGER

on that note i totally think that because i suck at something, it is bullshit and unfair. discuss.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on May 21, 2010, 02:16:29 AM
What annoys me is when people say things like Sinking Vortex (Murasa's second card) is bullshit. That's one of the fairest cards in the series :C
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on May 21, 2010, 02:18:26 AM
What annoys me is when people say things like Sinking Vortex (Murasa's second card) is bullshit. That's one of the fairest cards in the series :C
I can capture it consistently. It's just that sometimes Murasa's movements make it about 1.5x as hard as it usually is, especially since the boss doesn't move toward your horizontal position anymore.
we shuld make a shot type that has huge spread and 400 dps that homes in on all enemies and kills them b4 they shute bulelts, that wuld be awsum fun game and ttly balenced
Marisa C in MoF is pretty much this. :D
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 21, 2010, 04:35:55 AM
My SA Lunatic 1cc was with ReimuC, one of the worst shots in the game, which goes against your argument entirely.

Oh I missed this entirely. This actually proves how oblivious you are and actually supports my argument. The easiest shot type to 1cc SA with is Reimu C, by a hefty margin.
"hurr hurr but you said Reimu A was da best"
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on May 21, 2010, 04:45:12 AM
Am I the only person who doesn't like PCB?...
Hello.

P.S. MoF!MarisaC and SA!Marisa make the games unwinnable. Probably the hitbox and the gimmicks.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on May 21, 2010, 05:08:58 AM
Hay guys, you know what's really horribly designed about these games is how transparent my shot is

i mean like how am i supposed to know what direction its pointing in
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on May 21, 2010, 05:42:11 AM
P.S. MoF!MarisaC makes the game unwinnable.
The fact that I have a 1/2 history of Lunatic VoWG doesn't agree.
And I haven't even bothered to clear stage 1 on Lunatic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y81UUNOUWlY
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on May 21, 2010, 05:53:08 AM
... That VoWG didn't even throw the harder waves at you.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on May 21, 2010, 05:54:24 AM
... That VoWG didn't even throw the harder waves at you.
Because Marisa C kills it that quickly.

Besides, what's the chance that VoWG will not throw a hard wave that a newbie couldn't dodge for 30 entire seconds?
I tried looking at bjwdestroyer's perfect stage 6, and it doesn't seem to throw a solid wall until the 35-40 second mark.
Besides, what's not to like about Marisa C taking 20 less seconds than Reimu B?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on May 21, 2010, 05:56:19 AM
Why does my Hina fight last longer than with Reimu B then ? :/

EDIT: The walls are random and they come with the faster waves. I usually face these waves as soon as Reimu B reduces the health gauge to half (probably 20 seconds in).
It's pretty easy to derp due to the sudden change of speed and pattern. And I highly doubt any newbie would be capable of consistently surviving that for 30 seconds.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on May 21, 2010, 06:00:17 AM
Why does my Hina fight last longer than with Reimu B then ? :/
1. Hina doesn't stay in one spot for the entire fight.
2. With Reimu B, at least you can deal maximum damage if the boss moves and you're directly underneath as well.
3. Thus, some cards will be longer by a bit, but others (VoWG) will be significantly shorter.
4. With a well timed bomb during certain parts of the game, you can put all four frostthrowers in position for the boss. That's partially what happened in my video.

Edits:
5: It's Hina. Deal with plus 2 seconds.
Title: Bullsh*t
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 09:21:08 AM
Not saving replays of failures is a great way to keep failing. Trying over and over won't help if you don't examine what you did wrong. I'd say 90% of the complaints in this thread come from thinking replays are just for showing off.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 21, 2010, 03:53:29 PM
OK. Let's do this a little bit more civilized and scientific.  BV


What exactly is BS, shmup-wise? Is BS something that is unfair? Is it something that merely feels unfair? Is it bad design in general? Is it something else entirely?

In my opinion, a given stage portion or boss pattern is BS if the difficulty can, through sheer bad luck, occasionally spike way higher than it has a right to be for its spot in the game, which for lunatic mode usually implies nigh- or actual impossibility with human reflexes. Patterns that occasionally throw impenetrable walls at the player are the most obvious offenders here.

Note that a certain degree of randomness (and thus a slightly variable difficulty) is to be expected for a card. Por ejemplo, VoWG can throw both easy and difficult waves at you, but they are never impossible or too difficult for the final card of a lunatic mode, and the total number of waves is high enough to even out the overall difficulty.
Something that can (and possibly has to) be 100% micromemorized from beginning to end is fair if the execution is humanly possible, but it is still boring and bad design nontheless. For reference, see Hourai Jewel.

Stuff like bullets with a hitbox/sprite proportion of greater than 1, as seen in SoEW, are just plain bad design. They are not BS as long as they are not used in a BS pattern. It is kind of more like a dog turd...
Title: Re: Bullsh*t
Post by: nintendonut888 on May 21, 2010, 09:23:29 PM
Not saving replays of failures is a great way to keep failing. Trying over and over won't help if you don't examine what you did wrong. I'd say 90% of the complaints in this thread come from thinking replays are just for showing off.

You know, after one of my many BoWaP clipdeaths where I did not see the bullet that killed me (mind you this happens very rarely otherwise these days), I saved the replay and watched. Apparently I moved a tiny bit to the right and hit a bullet.

I raged anyway. :V
Title: Re: Bullsh*t
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 09:37:00 PM
You know, after one of my many BoWaP clipdeaths where I did not see the bullet that killed me (mind you this happens very rarely otherwise these days), I saved the replay and watched. Apparently I moved a tiny bit to the right and hit a bullet.

I raged anyway. :V

Of course you're going to rage when you see what you did wrong, but at least then you'll know, and probably be able to avoid that mistake in the future.

In this thread, I'm seeing a lot of "waaah this card is total BULLSHIT man" but when asked for replays, Enigma was actually incredulous at the idea of saving a replay of a failure. As if using replays in this way is just completely an alien concept. That's what surprises me.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on May 21, 2010, 09:47:32 PM
But I didn't see it and I still make the mistake on a regular basis. X( That fact that my normal methods of dodging don't work is why I hate that card. Heck, I'm so conditioned to not watch my hitbox directly it's almost impossible for me to actually do it even if I'm trying.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 09:58:42 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, I feel your pain. It's difficult for me to shift gears between "eyes glued to the hitbox" and "follow the streams". Micrododging is a real weakness of mine, which is why in Imperishable Night, I prefer fighting Reimu to Marisa, and also why I do better against Mystia's last two cards than I do micrododging anything else - the rest of the game window blotted out actually help me concentrate.

But I do think you stand a much, much better chance of being able to capture a spellcard by watching replays of your failures, rather than raging as you start over, charging, over and over again.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on May 21, 2010, 10:00:21 PM
Well I normally just instantly pinpoint where I screwed up mid-fight so I never save any replays to analyze either :ohdear: I assume it's only necessary in the case of "clipdeaths", where I don't even know what derp'd me. And most of the time my normal Touhou session would just go like "Wrong move, son; You rammed into that bullet on purpose idiot; Get off that fucking bottom; omg you sux practice more" following by an immediate rematch.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 10:01:58 PM
Well I normally just instantly pinpoint where I screwed up mid-fight so I never save any replays to analyze either :ohdear: I assume it's only necessary in the case of "clipdeaths", where I don't even know what derp'd me. And most of the time my normal Touhou session would just go like "Wrong move, son; You rammed into that bullet on purpose idiot; Get off that fucking bottom; omg you sux practice more" following by an immediate rematch.

Ahahaha this sound like me today playing Level 6 of Double Spoiler.

"Holy crap what is wrong with you? Do you enjoy flying right into tiny Suikas?"
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 21, 2010, 10:51:15 PM
saving replays of failures does nothing

you'll probably blow it at a different place or you need to use a completely different tactic
watching replays doesn't eliminate common mistakes which can happen anywhere
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 21, 2010, 10:54:26 PM
saving replays of failures does nothing

you'll probably blow it at a different place or you need to use a completely different tactic
watching replays doesn't eliminate common mistakes which can happen anywhere
There are mistakes that are not common mistakes that can happen anywhere.

If you do need a completely different tactic, watching a replay may give you the overview neccessary to figure it out.

But that isn't what this thread is about, is it?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 10:57:24 PM
saving replays of failures does nothing

you'll probably blow it at a different place or you need to use a completely different tactic
watching replays doesn't eliminate common mistakes which can happen anywhere

2/10. This statement is ridiculous on its face.

If you're stuck on a stage, and can't figure out how to advance or what you're doing wrong, watching a replay of your mistakes will show you what you're doing wrong. This is just common sense.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 21, 2010, 10:58:33 PM
There are mistakes that are not common mistakes that can happen anywhere.

If you do need a completely different tactic, watching a replay may give you the overview neccessary to figure it out.

But that isn't what this thread is about, is it?
yeah, but that involves watching successful replays, not your derp ones :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azure Lazuline on May 21, 2010, 10:59:49 PM
Well, I sometimes look at replays to figure something out. It lets me watch the bullets without worrying about dodging, so I can focus all my attention on planning a path. I still find it more effective to just try again, but replays do help sometimes.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 21, 2010, 11:00:31 PM
yeah, but that involves watching successful replays, not your derp ones :V
Only if you have the analytical ability of a garden gnome.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 21, 2010, 11:24:46 PM
2/10. This statement is ridiculous on its face.

If you're stuck on a stage, and can't figure out how to advance or what you're doing wrong, watching a replay of your mistakes will show you what you're doing wrong. This is just common sense.
But watching a replay of somebody else perfecting it will also show you how to do it properly.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 21, 2010, 11:28:40 PM
But watching a replay of somebody else perfecting it will also show you how to do it properly.
Figuring out how to do a pattern yourself can be half the fun, especially in extra stages.

I guess that depends on opinion, though...
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 21, 2010, 11:30:10 PM
Figuring out how to do a pattern yourself can be half the fun, especially in extra stages.

I guess that depends on opinion, though...
Only in extra stages. But these are usually trivial :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 11:35:16 PM
But watching a replay of somebody else perfecting it will also show you how to do it properly.

Aren't you the one who complains about memorization?

EDIT: Assuming for a moment your statement "watching replays of your failures does nothing" was actually genuine, I'd submit that the question, "Why the hell do I keep dying at this stage?" can often be answered with, "Oh, because I keep doing X, when I see here the path actually opens up towards Y".

Of course, if you want to go to YouTube and memorize runs other people who actually learned the stages did, you can also do that. But that's neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 21, 2010, 11:47:54 PM
Aren't you the one who complains about memorization?
You'll either memorize it or you'll keep failing. Making your own tactic also includes memorizing :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on May 21, 2010, 11:49:25 PM
You'll either memorize it or you'll keep failing. Making your own tactic also includes memorizing :V

Now you're being disingenuous, as I'm sure even you know the difference between "memorizing your own paths" and "studying YouTube vids".

Also, see my edit.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Silent Harmony on May 22, 2010, 07:48:03 AM
<- Has the analytical ability of a garden gnome. Seriously I can't read worth a damn.

I admit I've started saving everything the last couple of days(going to need more folders). It's helped a little so far, but we'll see how far this goes. I even have my first test for it:

Does Lyrica's Easy-mode 2nd non-spell (before Phantom Dinning) throw walls due to bullet speed? So far 3 replays point to "most likely." Or at the least "no, but still way too fucking cluttered*."

In the meantime, is my memory failing me or have people said STB/DS help with pattern-reading?



*To emphasize this, play Marisa, focus on Lyrica, and compare her 2nd and 3rd non-cards to [Concerto Grosso -Easy-].
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Helion on May 22, 2010, 01:35:01 PM
on that note i totally think that because i suck at something, it is bullshit and unfair. discuss.
Many complaints can be dismissed like this, but there are times where it's pretty fair to say something is bullshit, ie Aya's survival from MoF.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 22, 2010, 03:05:15 PM
Many complaints can be dismissed like this, but there are times where it's pretty fair to say something is bullshit, ie Aya's survival from MoF.

Oh yeah? Isn't it technically "possible"?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 22, 2010, 03:16:32 PM
I never found Aya's survival to be that bullshitty. It is merely very hard sightread dodging. Not that I've captured it or anything, but still...
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: WanderingKnight on May 22, 2010, 03:28:47 PM
Whenever I position myself on the far left Aya's card suddenly becomes completely doable.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 22, 2010, 03:36:08 PM
Not always, but I think that's because I always don't look at a big enough area.

I'm pretty sure Peerless Wind God could be consistently done if you're reading stuff in a big enough area. Going to the side of the screen is correct, but staying there tends to get me walled. I think my fails are just more due to not being able to read as big an area as I need to since I'm too focused what's going on around andd above me directly.

After Saruta Cross, Peerless Wind God has my best capture rate for any of Aya's cards. It's still an extremely low rate though.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 22, 2010, 06:51:58 PM
After Saruta Cross, Peerless Wind God has my best capture rate for any of Aya's cards. It's still an extremely low rate though.

For some reason i feel i am the only person in the world who is consistent at Terukuni.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 22, 2010, 07:08:13 PM
I am going to embarass myself so damn badly right now.

Just for ReimuB

Saruta Cross- 31/119
Storm Day- 3/118
Peerless Wind God- 3/112
Terukuni- 0/97

My nonspell captures for Aya are pretty damn bad too. I hate that fight so damn much, and I'd never play the stage in practice mode again once I get Terukuni. It would be real runs only for that stage.

So I'm consistent at Terukuni too, just not the same way.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 22, 2010, 07:20:12 PM
011121213131313131313etc

Starting in the center, this is my counting for how many circles you jump through before moving to the other side. Not sure if it's totally right, it's just what I recall off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 22, 2010, 07:28:17 PM
Saruta Cross- 31/119
Storm Day- 3/118
Peerless Wind God- 3/112
Terukuni- 0/97
So I'm consistent at Terukuni too, just not the same way.

Kind of makes me feel pretty bad considering what i just did... so i'll keep it a secret for now.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 22, 2010, 07:42:05 PM
You perfected Aya?


Edit: Gave Aya a few more tries. 1 more Storm Day capture, 1 more Peerless Wind God capture. Failed the others spells every time.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 23, 2010, 07:24:26 AM
You perfected Aya?
Edit: Gave Aya a few more tries. 1 more Storm Day capture, 1 more Peerless Wind God capture. Failed the others spells every time.

Yeah, i did. But that wasn't really what i was thinking of.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: RainfallYoshi on May 24, 2010, 05:02:05 AM
I'm going to randomly jump in and say that EoSD is the least bullshitty game in the series. It's danmaku at its simplest and purest since PC-98. Everything can be done with the right reading skills or by figuring out the pattern. There's not really anything that comes to mind as being purely luck based.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azure Lazuline on May 24, 2010, 05:08:46 AM
EoSD also has weird hitboxes for the bullets and lots of randomness, though. It has the potential to screw you over more than the other games, but it usually doesn't.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 24, 2010, 01:00:28 PM
I'm going to randomly jump in and say that EoSD is the least bullshitty game in the series. It's danmaku at its simplest and purest since PC-98. Everything can be done with the right reading skills or by figuring out the pattern. There's not really anything that comes to mind as being purely luck based.

Totally. And there aren't any weird gimmicks you have to use in order to play successfully.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on May 26, 2010, 01:49:47 PM
Mystia final nonspell as a Youkai solo is definitely BS.

And don't say that I shouldn't play as a Youkai solo as I've cleared with Yukari and Remilia and plan to do it with Yuyuko as well. Not Alice though, she's terrible.

Keine nonspells too, at least the first parts of it when Youkai solo.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on May 26, 2010, 04:43:47 PM
I'm pretty sure considering the game forces the human-youkai system on you which more or less requires both sides, that unlocking individual characters is more of an "extra challenge" in addition to "I only want this shot type".

But yeah Keine noncards can be really hard without blowing up familiars.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 26, 2010, 06:39:01 PM
Aha. That would explaing why I have so much problems with IN lunatic: I pretty much never unfocus during bosses.  :derp:
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 26, 2010, 08:09:17 PM
Aha. That would explaing why I have so much problems with IN lunatic: I pretty much never unfocus during bosses.  :derp:

Keine becomes much easier if you kill familiars. Her mid-boss card becomes easier. So does her mid-boss non-spell and her boss non-spells and its pretty much the only way to beat her 1st spellcard. It is possible to do without blowing up familiars but its not recommendable.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Matsuri on May 27, 2010, 02:37:08 AM
Keine becomes much easier if you kill familiars. Her mid-boss card becomes easier. So does her mid-boss non-spell and her boss non-spells and its pretty much the only way to beat her 1st spellcard. It is possible to do without blowing up familiars but its not recommendable.

Seconding this. Keine's nonspells are insane without taking out familiars.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: WanderingKnight on May 27, 2010, 05:30:56 AM
Quote
Keine becomes much easier if you kill familiars. Her mid-boss card becomes easier. So does her mid-boss non-spell and her boss non-spells and its pretty much the only way to beat her 1st spellcard. It is possible to do without blowing up familiars but its not recommendable.

Also afaik they shoot more bullets (blue ones on top of the red ones) if you're focused during the boss nonspells.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 27, 2010, 07:10:57 PM
Okay guys, Bananamatic not included. What's your opinion on Double Spoiler Scene 9-7? Satori's recollection version of "The Ceiling" of StB?

I decided to bring it up here because its not really a rage post. I have beaten the card with both characters and i'm not terribly interested in points. Besides, there is no way my 31 mil. could stand a chance anywhere anyway.

I think the card is hands down the hardest attack in Double Spoiler. The only reason i have been able to beat it is because its over in three shots. I find myself being pushed to the bottom of the screen in a matter of seconds and soon after finished off on a consistent basis. Imo its 10x harder than Peerless Wind God.

I find the attack frustrating and luck-based. What's your opinion?

It might just be me who sucks or does something wrong but i want to ask you guys about what you think.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Matsuri on May 27, 2010, 07:16:58 PM
Absolutely luck-based most of the time. Then again, it's pretty much the same as Kaguya's version, only without the annoying first phases.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on May 27, 2010, 07:22:28 PM
Scoring-wise: Luck-based. (I don't care what you're asking for LALALALALALA)

Playing just to clear: Easy enough to clear. Might take a few more attempts than usual but hey, that's how things work.

For the record (I might as well seeing as at one point, a certain member requested me try it), I can time down by (not to) ~30-40 seconds without taking defensive shots. Take that whatever way you want to.

In summary, 9-7 has just enough of a randomness and difficulty factor for it to not make me scream "BULLSHIT!".
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 27, 2010, 09:48:11 PM
It's "luck based" simply because we can't handle it yet. The bullets don't wall you at all and the attack varies so much that it can't be micro-memorized. The only "luck" that can be applied is if you're not good enough to consistently dodge it (isn't that true for all difficult attacks anyway?). The attack is tough and great for higher-tier players to test their skills on, but has such a low clear requirement that those of us who can't handle the massive speed and density of the bullets can just luck-trash their way through it and never touch it again. The game isn't filled with these extremely difficult to dodge cards anyway, so I think we can deal with one card that is genuinely too hard for us to pass legitimately (for now).

How boring would the game be if everything was piss easy or memorizable, anyway? Gotta have something to keep you on your toes.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on May 27, 2010, 10:02:05 PM
How boring would the game be if everything was piss easy or memorizable
:getdown:
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on May 27, 2010, 10:18:42 PM
Brilliant retort, B-dog.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on May 27, 2010, 10:21:30 PM
There is a reason why Zengeku didn't include him in this conversation.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: omgrandomnumbers on May 27, 2010, 10:48:04 PM
Let's bring this over to this thread:
XFD's amulets move straight, and the gaps between the sprites are big enough to accommodate your hitbox...and you can also avoid most of the bullets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tACAYUgYcBs#t=2m20s).  Also, spell practice.  Danmaku Paranoia only requires periodic small movements when Koishi moves (and thus there are the aimed bullets that you move around), and the gap between the bullets is still big enough for your hitbox to avoid touching the sprite.  Better still, the angle of the bullets is such that you'd have to make a fairly big mistake to hit a corner.

Um, that's exactly what I meant. I know how to do Xu Fu - stay at the bottom, tap up once, streamLOL. I know how to do Paranoia - Tap once away from aimed bullets and wait until an aimed one comes at you. I'm saying that those would be impossible if the hitboxes weren't so small. Basically, what I said in the first post if you were paying any attention.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on May 28, 2010, 10:49:21 AM
I love Double Spoiler for the most part, and I personally never saw what was so hard about Seamless Ceiling in the original StB. I almost died laughing when ZUN brought it back for Satori's spellcard in DS, since he knows that's the one card everyone hates.

In any case, I thought it was a perfectly fine card. I liked it more than Seamless Ceiling, probably because it's over in three shots. Not particularly time-consuming; I thought 9-1 was loads harder.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Erppo on May 28, 2010, 12:30:01 PM
I never understood why people hate Seamless Ceiling. Especially when there is stuff like 9-1 in the same level. I actually think it's one of the least bullshitty cards of it's stage. Yes, it's hard but it's hard in a good way.

9-1in StB is total bullshit however. You have to spend way too long basically surrounded by random bean bullets that have very unclear hitboxes. That and 9-2 are both harder than Seamless Ceiling to me.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on May 28, 2010, 12:41:05 PM
I never understood why people hate Seamless Ceiling.
Quote
it's hard

This. This, and personal taste. Personally I think the card(s) is fun.  :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on May 31, 2010, 07:51:10 PM
Ehmm when you guys say that 9-1 is harder than the Ceiling and Satori's remix do you mean StB 9-1 or DS 9-1? Personally i think either of these cards are loads easier than the ceiling.

The StB version is pretty easy. It is likely to fail it a couple of times before capture because of the bullets used for the attack though. DS 9-1 isn't horribly difficult (unless you are like me and didn't know about what the x button could do.) either and much more entertaining than 9-7.

Funny how we all are different. :)

It's "luck based" simply because we can't handle it yet. The bullets don't wall you at all and the attack varies so much that it can't be micro-memorized. The only "luck" that can be applied is if you're not good enough to consistently dodge it (isn't that true for all difficult attacks anyway?). The attack is tough and great for higher-tier players to test their skills on, but has such a low clear requirement that those of us who can't handle the massive speed and density of the bullets can just luck-trash their way through it and never touch it again. The game isn't filled with these extremely difficult to dodge cards anyway, so I think we can deal with one card that is genuinely too hard for us to pass legitimately (for now).

How boring would the game be if everything was piss easy or memorizable, anyway? Gotta have something to keep you on your toes.

Yeah. That's okay i guess. I remember i thought Apollo 13 was luckshit once too. Maybe one day i'll be able to handle this attack better. I just don't think that will happen any time soon because of Aya's speed. With a slower character i think it would be easier.

EDIT:

I tried the card again. Still one of the hardest scenes in the entire game. Harder than most Lunatic spellcards too. Its something that gets my blood boiling but those Photography games are meant to be harder than the normal games and you got all the attempts you'd ever want anyway so i shouldn't be complaining. I just don't understand how people who doesn't have a problem with this can think of VoWG as anything but a piece of cake as that card is slower and less dense.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 02:17:09 AM
bright guest stars

bad spell or worst spell
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on August 10, 2010, 02:26:25 AM
pfff

lightly-falling raindrops is worse
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 02:47:41 AM
pfff

lightly-falling raindrops is worse

Well, that is a UFO card, and anyone that's not in denial knows how much BS UFO is. It is part of Extra though, which along with Normal is actually fun. Hard and Lunatic though.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 03:23:05 AM
I mean no offense, but claiming UFO to be BS is like calling Lunatic BS when you've just barely made it past Normal. "omg i beat previous touhoes easily but ufo raeps me so its teh suxxxxxx"

bright guest stars

bad spell or worst spell
Bad. Try to not move while being surrounded by lasers will probably help (because you will panic and move).
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 10:01:39 AM
I mean no offense, but claiming UFO to be BS is like calling Lunatic BS when you've just barely made it past Normal.

Enigma is way past Normal. And i personally find UFO Hard to be something easily accomplished but its Lunatic mode to be much more frustrating than rewarding. Stupid design. Agreeing wholeheartedly with Enigma.

bright guest stars

bad spell or worst spell

Bad spell. There are worse out there.

Title: Bullshit
Post by: Tengukami on August 10, 2010, 10:24:06 AM
What's with the necrobump?
Title: Re: Bullshit
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 10:35:52 AM
What's with the necrobump?

Apparently people thought there was something to debate about.
Title: Bullshit
Post by: Tengukami on August 10, 2010, 11:24:50 AM
Apparently people need to read the rules then.
Title: Re: Bullshit
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 11:31:55 AM
Apparently people need to read the rules then.

I suppose. But what is the point of making a new thread if there is a perfectly able one that just hasn't gotten any attention for a while?
Title: Bullshit
Post by: Tengukami on August 10, 2010, 11:48:24 AM
That's something to take up with a mod. Doesn't change what the rules are right now. And it's not like the bump was particularly substantial. But again, this is at a mod's discretion.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on August 10, 2010, 01:12:01 PM
Wah wah wah I can't play UFO

No, being part of UFO does not automatically make it bullshit. Think of UFO more as a manic shooter than a danmaku game; it requires reflexes more than memorization. The reason I don't like LFRD is because the gaps are incredibly tight and the hitboxes aren't as small as they' appear (though to be fair I'm using Marisa, not lolhitboxReimu).
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 01:45:21 PM
No, being part of UFO does not automatically make it bullshit. Think of UFO more as a manic shooter than a danmaku game; it requires reflexes more than memorization. The reason I don't like LFRD is because the gaps are incredibly tight and the hitboxes aren't as small as they' appear (though to be fair I'm using Marisa, not lolhitboxReimu).

Oh come on. It's the exact same damn thing. I didn't even say that being part of UFO makes it automatically BS like someone else did earlier in this thread. I just said that UFO has the most BS things in the series. And my reflexes and pattern reading ability are just fine. It's just that UFO has way too much gimmicky shit involved in most of its dodging cards and noncards that really shouldn't be there in the first place.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 01:48:29 PM
Enigma is way past Normal. And i personally find UFO Hard to be something easily accomplished but its Lunatic mode to be much more frustrating than rewarding. Stupid design. Agreeing wholeheartedly with Enigma.
No, I'm not comparing Enigma with a Normal moodo player. I'm saying that calling a game BS because it's beyond your current skill level, is nonsense. You defeated UFO Hard with ease, sure, does that mean you're now the most awsm gaemr in the universe, and everything that manages to kill you is instantly regarded as "bullshit" ? No.

easily accomplished
This is bullet hell we are talking about :V
Title: Re: Bullshit
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 01:58:02 PM
Apparently people need to read the rules then.
Tell that to Naut, he directed us here :V
besides we need a thread for the useless QQ
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 02:03:17 PM
Lunatic player for almost every game in the series. Haven't gotten into UFO Lunatic because of not 1ccing Hard yet.


You know, maybe I'd do better at UFO if I actually had the vsync patch files for it. Those really helped my performance on other games, except EoSD because I don't know how to use it on that. And I have had some major cases of input lag stuff on UFO too.

But my complaints don't have anything to do with input lag but the actual attacks involved.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: orinrin on August 10, 2010, 02:18:40 PM
There's input lag in UFO?  What.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 02:20:04 PM
Play Batrider on MAME then tell me about input lag :V

I wasn't able to make it work for danmakufu either, and I can dodge almost perfectly.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 02:33:04 PM
Do you realize how many times I've posted in the rage topics about barely failing Hard 1ccs just because several times during the runs I would press the bomb button a decent amount before getting hit and still end up dying because the bomb didn't go off.

I have never had worse input lag in any of the games than I have had in UFO. The closest was PCB.

Now, I have had bad runs too, but these are perfectly good runs that I'm talking about that got ruined due to no fault of my own.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 02:57:04 PM
I'm saying that calling a game BS because it's beyond your current skill level, is nonsense.

I can't beat Dimahoo either but that game manages to be fun unlike UFO.

Tell that to Naut, he directed us here :V
*chuckles*

This is bullet hell we are talking about :V

Nobody says there shouldn't be a challenge to it but it takes more to make a good game than just making it hard. It also needs to be fun. That's actually more important than difficulty.

it requires reflexes more than memorization.

That is bloody nonsense. UFO has some of the most "you gotta learn this gimmick or you die" attacks and almost all of its stages is about following a static route if you want to survive.

Add to this the UFO system which requires you to work out a path to collect resources. Something the previous games would just give you. And most manic shooters i've seen give you lives for accumulating score.


Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 03:19:52 PM
List of attacks that either have to be memorized or can be memorized but aren't necessary:

Both Nazrin boss cards
Parasol Star Memories
Kogasa' train card
Ichirin's second boss card
midboss Nue
Murasa nonspells
Murasa's survival card
Greatest Treasure
Radiant Treasure Gun
Vajra of Perfect Buddhism
Midboss Nue again
Byakuren's second spellcard
Byakuren's final nonspell
St. Nikou's Air Scroll/Superhuman
Flying Fantastica/LFS

And those are just boss and midboss attacks. And it's possible I might be missing some.

Only IN is worse about memorizing, and it's not memorize this or die in most cases, and spell practice makes learning them tolerable.

EoSD's reflex based cards are also a hell of a lot better designed than UFO's.

So UFO loses both on reflex stuff and memorize stuff.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 03:21:22 PM
You have to memorize Nazrin. If you don't you'll timeout both cards as the first one has her moving around too much and the second one will block you out with the pendulums.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 03:23:30 PM
I never considered the first one necessary to memorize, though I did just so I could end it quick. Second one is definitely necessary to memorize, especially on Hard.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 03:27:26 PM
spells

Superhuman too? And i don't think Greatest Treasure can be memorized. Also i would add how Murasa's third spellcard randomly decides to place bullets in the gaps you need to use.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 03:30:23 PM
That is bloody nonsense. UFO has some of the most "you gotta learn this gimmick or you die" attacks and almost all of its stages is about following a static route if you want to survive.
*cough*YukariINStBMoFSADS*cough cough*
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Jaimers on August 10, 2010, 03:32:02 PM
Oh boy this again.

Do you realize how many times I've posted in the rage topics about barely failing Hard 1ccs just because several times during the runs I would press the bomb button a decent amount before getting hit and still end up dying because the bomb didn't go off.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but it ain't the game.

and almost all of its stages is about following a static route if you want to survive.
...unlike other Touhou games?

Add to this the UFO system which requires you to work out a path to collect resources.
Grab red.
Occasional Green.
Bomb if necessary.

Greatest Treasure
Radiant Treasure Gun
wat

Superhuman is not completely static BTW.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 03:38:37 PM
*cough*YukariINStBMoFSADS*cough cough*

Yukari's a Phantasm boss, which is just basically a harder extra where memorization is more effective in general.


IN definitely has the most.


What does MoF and SA even have that's static or memorizable in some way? not very much

Autumn Sky and a Maiden's Heart
Hina's midboss(I think)
Trauma in the Glimmering Depths
Every Sanae spellcard except Moses's Miracle(and that might have something I'm missing)

SA has

Parsee's final card
Unnatural Phenomenon
Shackles a Criminal Can't Remove(not that it's necessary at all, but it's still static)
Some Yuugi nonspells
Satori nonspells
Terrifying Hypnotism
Border of Wave and Particle
Vengeful Cannibal Spirit
Blazing Wheel


Oh, and StB/DS don't count since the photography mechanic gave Zun the ability to make attacks that would be unacceptable in any other game. Hell, even there it's pretty stupid at times.


And none of the other games require static routes. You can generally take several routes through the stages just fine unless you're trying for score, but then that's your damn problem if that's what you're doing. UFO Stage memorization is more, you must kill this enemy at whatever time, you must summon a Red/Green/Blue/Rainbow UFO at certain time then blow it up at the exact correct time or else you're fucked.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 03:40:44 PM
Grab red.
Occasional Green.
Bomb if necessary.
wat

Superhuman is not completely static BTW.
Couldn't 1cc UFO hard, somebody told me my ufo path is shit, memorized one, 1cc'd on second attempt with an extra life despite dying 3 times on LFO.

While other lunatics are just "roughly figure out the patterns and dodge", UFO is "do exactly this or die a horrible death"

Superhuman is movement memorization, and easy one at that.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 03:46:05 PM
1cc'd UFO Hard on second try without an UFO path here.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 03:47:32 PM
yeah but you're a shmup prodigy
when did you start attempting it anyways?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 03:48:29 PM
Oh, and how could I forget the "Don't summon UFOs here or you're fucked" parts.


Also, my luck in general is terrible. If an attack can wall, it probably will wall me.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 03:54:40 PM
...unlike other Touhou games?

Just look at UFO Stage 5. Playing that stage is pretty much a mechanical process of the same thing every single time with a short bit of dodging at the end and some stupid orb spam.

Stage 3 has this glorious finishing part. If you don't move around like ZUN wants you to do there is nothing you can do.

Oh and all the UFO Stages have one thing in common with the exception of Stage 4: They are boring, tedious and dull to play with half their stage songs being sub-par to the rest of the series imo.

While other lunatics are just "roughly figure out the patterns and dodge", UFO is "do exactly this or die a horrible death"

With the former being the good and the latter being the bad. In other words, UFO would only be good if you don't play other games.

1cc'd UFO Hard on second try without an UFO path here.

Opening up my folder and looking at my results screen it seems i did it 1st try though i think a few restarts were done in Stage 1 and 2 because of silly mess ups. Hard mode is simple enough to the extent where collecting UFO's isn't as troublesome as there is a huge gap of difficulty between Hard and Lunatic as there normally is in Touhou.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on August 10, 2010, 04:05:59 PM
ha ha ha oh god i'd almost completely forgotten about  this

this thread man, this thread
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 04:08:22 PM
Stage 3 has this glorious finishing part. If you don't move around like ZUN wants you to do there is nothing you can do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWsC-LzNSM#t=2m27

when did you start attempting it anyways?
I never actually attempted/practiced Hard. After ~60 runs on both S5 and S6 Lunatic I tried Hard Story just for lulz and ... :derp:
Title: Bullshit
Post by: Tengukami on August 10, 2010, 04:09:52 PM
This is the song that doesn't end, yes it goes on and on, my friend.

Hilarious.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 04:10:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWsC-LzNSM#t=2m27
weirdass sanae snakes
and he still had to bomb :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 10, 2010, 04:12:55 PM
The necrobump itself was retarded. Banana, don't do that again.

That being said, since the current course of discussion seems to be about whether or not UFO is 'bullshit', I can't really do more than issue that warning.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 04:15:20 PM
weirdass sanae snakes
and he still had to bomb :V

Yeah. Bananamatic pretty much said whatever i would say. Besides, the player in the video did move around in a strange pattern anyway and it didn't seem to work very well.

Its basically just "you gotta memorize this but there is different paths you can memorize". Wonderful.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 04:16:22 PM
Not to mention that's one of the parts where you do not want to summon a UFO, IIRC.

But even without the UFO, I think he would have needed to bomb that thing.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 04:17:24 PM
First bomb was a stupid mistake :V Second bomb was probably intentional, though if he started streaming from (GetClipMaxX-rand(2,5), GetClipMaxY-rand(2,5)) close to the rightmost boundary he could end the wave without bombs.

Its basically just "you gotta memorize this but there is different paths you can memorize". Wonderful.
Welcome to the shmups world.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 10, 2010, 04:26:29 PM
Welcome to the shmups world.

No thanks mister. What genre does pre-UFO belong to then? Music games? Sure there is a great deal of memorization present in the nonfail-era but that basically only boiled down to remembering where enemies spawn and what happens. That is okay but i just hate when a game forces me to memorize something. That means that if i forget what i'm doing or just don't know my skills at dodging bullets will be rendered almost useless.

SA involves a lot of streaming. Usually with some stuff that you have to dodge simultaneously to make it interesting. MoF only has Stage 5 and 6. The rest can be done by simply remembering enemy spawn points and what happens. And for the few parts that takes memorization both games have plentiful of resources to compensate. Those two games are probably designed with the power-system in mind.

IN admittedly has a lot of memo but compensates with Spell Practice.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 10, 2010, 04:33:03 PM
Goddamn I just read through this thread and it makes me wish being simultaneously arrogant and whiny was a bannable offense at this website.

Jesus fuck.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 04:34:37 PM
The necrobump itself was retarded. Banana, don't do that again.
I don't see how it is bad.
One thing is bumping a minor thread which has been answered, another is contributing to a previously active thread which has served a purpose, plus I was directed to that thread.

If the spellcard help thread died, would we have to create a new one?
Plus many people hate this arguing for no reason, so putting it into one thread might be better than flooding the forum with them. That way, if you hate this pointless bitching discussion, you avoid this thread and you avoid it entirely.

Just like the rage thread is for generally bad stuff(dying 1 point before the extend), the derp thread is for really stupid stuff(putting your hands away and Utsuho pulling you in just as she dies, plus being on your last life), this will serve the purpose of useless whining about games which people would find annoying elsewhere.

back on topic, I expect some freedom in my games. It's a shmup, not a ZUN D/S simulator where you have to obey him or you'll get punched in the face.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 10, 2010, 04:35:27 PM
What genre does pre-UFO belong to then?
Sure there is a great deal of memorization present in the nonfail-era but that basically only boiled down to remembering where enemies spawn and what happens.
a lot of streaming. Usually with some stuff that you have to dodge simultaneously to make it interesting.
Which basically translates to "the same".
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 10, 2010, 04:35:53 PM
I made that post under the impression that this thread was about games being bullshit, not individual cards. Consider the comment rescinded. I suggest a thread title change, though.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on August 10, 2010, 05:33:21 PM
I made that post under the impression that this thread was about games being bullshit, not individual cards.

Games was what the original thread was about. Bdog's bump was about an individual card.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on August 10, 2010, 05:59:02 PM
Either way I would still rather all the whiny crap be kept to one thread, instead of branching off into Accomplishments, Despair and Help threads like ti always does. The original point of the thread was to spider web all that and it seems it still be doing fine, as Banana said.

I personally just find Zengeku's comments funny because all shmups can be described as how he did.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 06:06:29 PM
For some reason, having to bomb something in Touhou is 10x more annoying than in any other shmup.
Probably because SPELL BONUS FAILED
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on August 10, 2010, 08:43:57 PM
I made that post under the impression that this thread was about games being bullshit, not individual cards. Consider the comment rescinded. I suggest a thread title change, though.
Games was what the original thread was about. Bdog's bump was about an individual card.

There was a debate flaring up in the accomplishment thread (quite possibly the only genuinely good thread in HME), so I told them to bring it to this thread. I instigated the necrobump, my bad.

For some reason, having to bomb something in Touhou is 10x more annoying than in any other shmup.
Probably because SPELL BONUS FAILED

Since when do you give a shit about scoring in Touhou, who cares if a little message comes up to tell you that you failed an attack?



To pretty much every post by Enigma:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it ain't the game.

This.

If you spent more time playing and less time whining, you'd actually be able to beat UFO. If you don't like the game, then why do you keep playing it?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 08:55:25 PM
It's not that I hate the game, I hate the attacks in the game.

It's due to all the attacks that I can't stand playing it very long. I have no problem playing the game occasionally, but there's no way in hell I'm grinding a hard or Lunatic 1cc at all. And yes, I probably could 1cc Lunatic if I put in the effort, but I have better things to do with my time.

Oh, and why not just link me to the UFO Vsync patch now because I know there is one, and I'd at least like to try the game out with it. I know that I'm having some input lag issues despite the bullshit from others trying to claim it's just me messing up. Quit trying to call me a liar about that because you would have any idea what I'm experiencing with the game and input.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on August 10, 2010, 08:59:09 PM
It's not that I hate the game, it's just I hate everything in it

oh ok
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on August 10, 2010, 08:59:51 PM
Oh, and why not just link me to the UFO Vsync patch now because I know there is one, and I'd at least like to try the game out with it.

Link (http://coolier.sytes.net:8080/th_up4/index.php?id=1057). Though I haven't noticed a difference.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 09:01:17 PM
Hey, I like the characters, I like the boss music except Byakuren's, I like the general Touhou gameplay.

I don't like the power system, and I don't like a lot of the danmaku, but I like some of the danmaku. Oh, and I don't like the UFO system, but thankfully Zun will probably never do something like that again.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on August 10, 2010, 09:08:26 PM
In my ability to 1cc UFO Hard, I don't think there was any other way to allow the players to get whatever resources they need for a given part of the game. I mean, the game can give you fifty bajillion lives, but doing that gives you no extra bombs except for those you net when you respawn.

I'm still not a fan of running around the screen like an idiot with no bombs trying to earn .5 lives but dying in the process.

But I only managed to scrounge my 1cc, so ignore me if you need.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 10, 2010, 10:12:34 PM
Don't you use a controller/gamepad? I don't think Vsync does anything for those.


Noticed some improvement. Of course, having not played for a month or two, or maybe it was 3 means derps expected and obvious failed attempts. I did get to Shou every time though which was extremely rare before.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on August 10, 2010, 10:26:36 PM
can be memorized but aren't necessary
You could apply this to pretty much everything else.

<manic shooter is different from danmaku>
I thought they were the same thing  ???
I know what you're getting at though.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *game* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on August 10, 2010, 10:42:52 PM
You could apply this to pretty much everything else.

I thought they were the same thing  ???
I know what you're getting at though.

Er, I usually classify "danmaku" as heavily pattern-based, usually with safespots/tricks you have to use and more memorization (ie Touhou), and "manic shooters" as reflexes and streaming (ie DoDonPachi).

Quote from: Enigma and Zen
*complaining*

All I'm getting is "Memorizing sucks."

You're playing shmups.

Suck it up.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 10:44:19 PM
according to the shmup dictionary:
manic shmup: lots of bullets, relies on reaction rather than pure memorization(look at gradius/darius, THAT is pure memorization)
bullet curtain/curtain fire(danmaku): Bullets you can't avoid entirely, instead you have to go through them

yeah it's basically the same if you look at it that way
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on August 10, 2010, 10:54:30 PM
(http://i30.servimg.com/u/f30/12/80/32/92/th/untitl34.png) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=698&u=12803292)
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 11:11:08 PM
yeah, basically it's the same

if you really want to divide them, stuff like mushi and BWR rely on mass bullets and cancelling enemies, while DDP is more about speed and fast streaming...while maintaining the high bullet count.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on August 10, 2010, 11:17:29 PM
[18:00] <Drake> Why the fuck are people arguing about what defines a game as "manic shooter" and "danmaku"
[18:01] <Drake> The point is you're not doing it right
[18:01] <Drake> All danmaku games are like this
[18:01] <Drake> You suck
[18:01] <Baity> dodge bullets
[18:01] <Drake> Get over it, dodge bullets, get better
[18:01] <Baity> also you got your mousepad already :<<<<
[18:01] <Drake> Holy shit guys, if you get better, you get better!!!!
[18:02] <Drake> People die when they are killed!
[18:02] <Baity> :O
[18:02] <Drake> Memorization isn't necessary but you should probably memorize anyways!
[18:02] <Drake> Oh wait look playing it over a billion times you memorized it anyway!!!
[18:02] <Drake> Fuck!!
[18:02] <Baity> i was going to raise that point but decided not to
[18:03] <Drake> I don't get how people can complain about memorization
[18:03] <Drake> All danmaku games are about memorization
[18:03] <Drake> It's just a part of it
[18:03] <Drake> Reflexes, Fluency, Streaming
[18:04] <Baity> they're all skillsets required for playing
[18:04] <Baity> that is all
[18:04] <Drake> Exactly
[18:04] <Baity> though, reflexes not as much as one would think  :v
[18:04] <Drake> "Hurr durr you have to memorize this" isn't really an excuse for an entire game
[18:04] <Baity> not for touhou anyway
[18:04] <Drake> Talking about danmaku in general
[18:05] <Drake> You're going to want to memorize where enemies spawn and how to deal with patterns to be able to win
[18:05] <Drake> A danmaku game with just reflexes can be easily imitated
[18:05] <Drake> http://www.break.com/games/sheepshooting.html
[18:06] <Drake> Do this for hours, try to get as fast as you can
[18:06] <Drake> That's fucking it
[18:06] <Baity> i recall averaging 130ms on that one
[18:06] <Baity> i also recall the evil sheep coming from the bottom has an unfair advantage  :<
[18:07] <Drake> Also streaming is a subset of all reflexes, memorization and fluency, so it shouldn't really be a category itself, I suppose
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 11:20:24 PM
memorization isn't necessary...unless you are playing UFO
really, it's just UFO

Also I don't understand how does a game where you expect what is coming improve reflexes.
One thing is reacting, another thing is reacting appropriately when you don't expect it at all...like dropping an item and still managing to catch it.

Shmups aren't going to throw the same sheep all the time at you :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on August 10, 2010, 11:41:42 PM
[18:05] <Drake> http://www.break.com/games/sheepshooting.html
[18:06] <Drake> Do this for hours, try to get as fast as you can
[attachimg=1]

I can has win?


And UFO does not require substantially more memorization than the previous games. Certainly not in the danmaku itself.
The "ufo route" thing is not the big matter everyone makes it out to be. For one, memorizing about when which UFOs pop up in a given stage is not really any different from memorizing which danmaku comes at which part of the stage, or where you strategically position yourself to kill the approaching enemies as fast as possible; You know, things that you do in every other touhou game (and pretty much every other shmup); Things that come naturally after a few attempts.
Furthermore, an actual rigid route won't help you unless you make next to no mistake. If you miss a single UFO that you planned on getting, you'll have to improvise anyways.

If you don't like the game, that's your right, I don't care. It is all a matter of taste. When making actual criticism, however, people will disagree if they believe the criticism to be flawed.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 10, 2010, 11:50:36 PM
Played lunatic? I found hard to be easy even sightread if you memorized an ufo route.

Try BWR original. If you can identify streaming and see paths in the patterns, there is no excuse for not 1ccing with Guard on.

UFO forces you to do illogical crap which you can't identify that simply. Circling around the screen is usually a last resort maneuver with no bombs, not the only way to clear the attack.
Hard lets you stream it, which should be the first reaction to it if you play shmups. Lunatic doesn't.

and lol at the sheep game
got rocketing rabbit, 4 of them at 0.167/8

To be honest, unless you are a Feveron nut or excessively rely on deathbombs, this isn't going to help you.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on August 11, 2010, 12:06:21 AM
UFO forces you to do illogical crap which you can't identify that simply. Circling around the screen is usually a last resort maneuver with no bombs, not the only way to clear the attack.
Hard lets you stream it, which should be the first reaction to it if you play shmups. Lunatic doesn't.
Basic logic: If you try to stream the attack from left to right or vice versa and you don't get an opening, continue streaming in a circle. Circling is the next logical step, and it does come naturally.
The latter half of stage 3 is balls to the walls hard, though, I'll give yout that.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 11, 2010, 12:11:42 AM
Yeah, like you can really stream that garbage in a circle either. And I wouldn't even want to mess with it with a nonReimuB type since SanaeA's homing is useless.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 11, 2010, 12:58:33 AM
The point is, that in say, DDP, streaming in a circle is risky because enemies that get on the screen shoot right away.

If you fail to restream, bomb. I don't remember many attacks in Touhou where you had to restream, though...either way, most of the fairies fire with some sort of delay instead of quickly flying in and spamming bullets.

You still need to learn the timing to pull it off as well. The difficulty shouldn't be all over the place, especially not in the earlier stages.

St4 is amazing fun, I'll give it that. But st5 again turns into mindless path following without any chance to improvise.
How many ways are there to dodge the final orb spam on lunatic anyways?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 11, 2010, 01:01:44 AM
I have no idea. The way I use on Hard still has a minor luck element to it, but it's the only way I've got for it.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 11, 2010, 01:02:20 AM
I fail to understand why so many people rage over circling around in an attack that requires it. You don't complain every time you have to stream, do you?

Yeah, like you can really stream that garbage in a circle either. And I wouldn't even want to mess with it with a nonReimuB type since SanaeA's homing is useless.

Just say the word and I'll produce a replay that captures that phase. With Reimu A. The only part I'd consider BS is getting into the starting position, which is only really a problem if you managed to not bomb the previous part of the stage.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 11, 2010, 01:04:40 AM
Because circling in shmups is
1) suicidal
2) retarded

I won't be surprised if Touhou 13 has a boss which you have to tackle in order to damage it.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: orinrin on August 11, 2010, 01:15:28 AM
I won't be surprised if Touhou 13 has a boss which you have to tackle in order to damage it.
Innovation.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 11, 2010, 01:16:40 AM
Innovation.
seeing how I always ram Hourai Elixir, maybe this would be easier to find out than circling and other weird shenanigans
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 11, 2010, 01:22:19 AM
That's not even the only time in UFO where you're circling either. There's the preNazrin orb spam too. At least there it's always doable. If you're not in the right spot when the stage 3 one starts, you'll probably end up flying into a fairy. And of course there' Vajra which is a garbage card anyway in the memorize or you will die/bomb way.

At least circling in other games in the series was limited to certain boss cards and wasn't even necessary for them. The only ones I can even think of are from Mokou and Eirin.

Edit: And Suwako has one too.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Naut on August 11, 2010, 01:38:05 AM
So basically you all suck at moving in a circle. There, was that hard to admit?

Seriously, you picked that to bitch about? Come on.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 11, 2010, 01:38:27 AM
I don't circle Iwakasa's Curse myself  :V

Suwako and Eirin made it obvious that the attack was designed for you to circle it, and you figure it out immediately.

This isn't. It seems like an impossible streaming attack, but you are supposed to circle it and the game doesn't give a slightest hint of it.

It's supposed to be a shmup, not a trial/error puzzle game.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 01:47:51 AM
You're playing shmups.
Suck it up.

I guess MoF, SA, IN, PCB and EoSD is something different then because in those games there is no problem.

If you gotta implement a lot of spellcards that require getting used to the strategies required/memorizing the pattern there should be spell practice. Now for UFO there should be added an additional non-spell practice and part-of-stage section to minimize grinding. I hate spending time doing nothing just to get to the interesting parts. If the goal for example is to work out the pattern of the end stage portion of UFO Stage 3 you have to go through the entirity of Stage 3 just for one shot at it and as i certainly don't find the pattern to be obvious this is going to take some time.

Really, in UFO memorization feels like key to victory. In the earlier games it felt more like you could bomb those parts that required memorization, get your 1cc and go back and work out the few things where you always had to bomb. Like SA Stage 3 for example. I got my 1cc of SA long before memorizing how Stage 3 is handled.

Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: LHCling on August 11, 2010, 01:48:45 AM
How many ways are there to dodge the final orb spam on lunatic anyways?
4 distinct methods, each with their own merits, consequences and whatnot. 5 if you count planning a bomb. 6 if you're the type of person who summons a UFO closer to the end of the stage. This excludes mirror movement.

If you're not in the right spot when the stage 3 one starts, you'll probably end up flying into a fairy.
You can start from just about anywhere on the screen actually.

Use your options better to avoid collision with fairies. Though, even at 1.xx Power you can still easily go through them since your base shot covers your rear to a very small degree.

This isn't. It seems like an impossible streaming attack, but you are supposed to circle it and the game doesn't give a slightest hint of it.
Basic logic: If you try to stream the attack from left to right or vice versa and you don't get an opening, continue streaming in a circle. Circling is the next logical step, and it does come naturally.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 01:51:52 AM
You're playing shmups.
Suck it up.

I guess MoF, SA, IN, PCB and EoSD is something different then because in those games there is no problem.

If you gotta implement a lot of spellcards that require getting used to the strategies required/memorizing the pattern there should be spell practice. Now for UFO there should be added an additional non-spell practice and part-of-stage section to minimize grinding. I hate spending time doing nothing just to get to the interesting parts. If the goal for example is to work out the pattern of the end stage portion of UFO Stage 3 you have to go through the entirity of Stage 3 just for one shot at it and as i certainly don't find the pattern to be obvious this is going to take some time.

Really, in UFO memorization feels like key to victory. In the earlier games it felt more like you could bomb those parts that required memorization, get your 1cc and go back and work out the few things where you always had to bomb. Like SA Stage 3 for example. I got my 1cc of SA long before memorizing how Stage 3 is handled.

So basically you all suck at moving in a circle. There, was that hard to admit?

Seriously, you picked that to bitch about? Come on.

Seriously. I haven't even bothered to try and learn it. When i heard that was how you did it my immediate thoughts wasn't "oh so that's how its done!". It was more like "zun is retarded. How does that make sense?"
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 11, 2010, 02:06:24 AM
I guess MoF, SA, IN, PCB and EoSD is something different then because in those games I have no problem.
You mean this.

How many ways are there to dodge the final orb spam on lunatic anyways?
384. Easier toward the corners, harder toward the center. But it never gets impossible.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 11, 2010, 02:12:25 AM
Quote
Seriously. I haven't even bothered to try and learn it.

Okay, I'm sorry if I come off as haughty here, but what the hell? You can't refuse to learn something "because it's retarded" and then complain about how you die there. You know what? Back when I was playing SoEW hard/lunatic, I thought Mima was the worst designed boss ever. It seemed nearly half her attacks were either undodgeable or impossible unless you predicted them. I 1cc'd lunatic by getting there with enough bombs and spamming her to death.

But one day, when I was a wiser player (and had an emulator with savestates), I decided to see if there was any way to dodge one of these "undodgable" attacks. I spent quite a while on the same attack, when I realized some things: The attacks always came in the same sequence, and said attack, once it was made predictable, could be misdirected into something completely harmless. Eventually, I managed to perfect Mima, who I thought was the worst designed boss in the series. Do I still believe this?

Of freaking course! Attacks that become 100% undodgeable unless you predict it? An entire fight based upon bad design and coming down to memorizing each and every attack in sequence, it's terrible! Yet I did it anyway. Maybe I'm just masochistic, but rather than thinking "this is impossible, this is stupid, what was ZUN thinking," you SHOULD be asking yourself "what WAS ZUN thinking," and try and figure it out. I'm not asking you to care about UFO, I'm not asking you to say that it isn't stupid, but I implore you to try and figure out an attack before calling it impossible.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Bananamatic on August 11, 2010, 02:12:56 AM
I play shmups to have fun and shoot shit.

If I wanted to do science, I'd do something useful. Like frog autopsy.

If a shmup beats me, it's because I'm not skilled enough. Because I can't control rank. Because I'm not good enough for the second loop. Because I did stupid mistakes. Because I can't score for extends or chain medals for them.

Not because I'm refusing to learn two pages of theory for of one attack.

Shmups are supposed to be fun. This isn't fun.
Shmups are supposed to be easy to pick up, simple to learn but hard to master.

If you just pick up UFO lunatic to shoot stuff, you'll always die to the same attacks because you have to learn them.

If you want to advance somewhere in UFO lunatic, you don't practice. You grab a shitload of replays and micromemorize the stages.

PCB is fun. It's dodging, it's fair, there are no tricks.
Anyone can just play it by shooting and sightreading. The gimmicks are limited to "oh that was aimed, didn't notice" and "didn't know they only shoot when you shoot them"
Everything up to IN is pretty much the same. Touhou games were slow, but casually playable.

Then ZUN decided to remove continues, and you could no longer take it easy without playing below your skill level.

I love to play BWR on Hell even though it kicks my ass. DDP loop 2 is amazing fun when you throw in 9 credits and just try to dodge. And you feel like a superplayer when you actually pull something good off. It's fun.

To play UFO, you gotta be HARDCORE. And that's no fun in a mostly casual genre.
The game simply boots you out on stage 2/3, and even if you get a .dat, you'll be stuck with your peashooter if you screw around. The game won't even let you play it.

MoF and SA were heavily bombable, but halfway in the UFO problem.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on August 11, 2010, 02:16:19 AM
Really, in UFO memorization feels like key to victory. In the earlier games it felt more like you could bomb those parts that required memorization, get your 1cc and go back and work out the few things where you always had to bomb. Like SA Stage 3 for example. I got my 1cc of SA long before memorizing how Stage 3 is handled.

And the game that gives out bombs like candy can't be bombed? :/
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on August 11, 2010, 02:18:28 AM
Quote
This isn't fun.
then play something else


Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Vibri on August 11, 2010, 02:44:58 AM
Yeah holy god people, if UFO lunatic makes you so angry and miserable just don't play it.  You don't have to 1cc it.  I am VgameT and my word is law.

I'm a pretty bad player and I've barely touched UFO on the whole, but I thought normal mode was pretty dope.  I guess it turns out that, if you play a game on the hardest difficulty, it's hard.  If it's so hard that it's not fun, or it's a type of hard that you don't find fun, you seriously should just not bother with it.  Don't spend a bunch of time doing something that makes you feel bad, that's fucking dumb.  Jesus.

Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 03:20:40 AM
Don't spend a bunch of time doing something that makes you feel bad, that's fucking dumb.  Jesus.

The fact there is a Touhou game i haven't beat yet is nagging me like all hell. But playing it is a pain. I'm just here to support the fact that ZUN fucked up. I gave up any attempts at clearing the game a while ago.

Okay, I'm sorry if I come off as haughty here, but what the hell? You can't refuse to learn something "because it's retarded" and then complain about how you die there.

I can. Because in the other Touhou games i didn't have to learn everything to do be succesful.

And... did you just compare UFO Lunatic to SoEW Lunatic? :V I guess we have come to an agreement.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 11, 2010, 03:28:23 AM
No, I did not. I used a game I think to be bad and unfun to compare it to your situation. My whole point is that just because something is stupid or unfun doesn't mean you can't learn it and beat it, if you really want to.

Quote
I can. Because in the other Touhou games i didn't have to learn everything to do be succesful.

Then learn, if you really care about beating UFO, even if it's just to get it over with. After all, you said yourself you don't want to be satisfied with a 1cc you just barely got. To do better, you'd have to go back and learn everything anyway. You can't expect to win just by trying the same thing over and over with the same mindset.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 03:49:27 AM
Then learn, if you really care about beating UFO, even if it's just to get it over with.

Now that sounds like a waste of time. Its like this: I want to win but hell no i'm spending all that time to learn everything. That shouldn't be necessary. It wasn't before, if it suddenly is then it sucks as far as i'm concerned. Its like if Double Spoiler gave you a bunch of lives and if you ran out you had to start over from the beginning.

After all, you said yourself you don't want to be satisfied with a 1cc you just barely got.

That only goes for games i consider to be masterpieces. If i don't like it then any clear will suffice. Like clearing PoFV with Aya or just barely clearing LLS.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 11, 2010, 03:53:37 AM
- I beat previous Toehoe games with ease
- UFO rapes me
-> UFO sux

Just how good do you think you are anyway ?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Inactive person on August 11, 2010, 04:03:42 AM
I heard someone complain because Touhou games were too easy, but when ZUN did his best to make it harder, people whines because you actually need to create patterns to beat it :V.  He's making Touhou by himself, give him a break.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 04:15:42 AM
- I beat previous Toehoe games with ease
- UFO rapes me
-> UFO sux

Just how good do you think you are anyway ?

Not good enough for a game in which Stage 2 bosses have harder spells than VoWG apparently.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 11, 2010, 04:20:41 AM
No, you are not good enough.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 04:35:34 AM
No, you are not good enough.

That just contradicts what i'm usually told about UFO. That its not too much harder than the other Touhou games.

He's making Touhou by himself, give him a break.


And not before now, it shows.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sen on August 11, 2010, 04:58:12 AM
Now that sounds like a waste of time. Its like this: I want to win but hell no i'm spending all that time to learn everything. That shouldn't be necessary. It wasn't before, if it suddenly is then it sucks as far as i'm concerned. Its like if Double Spoiler gave you a bunch of lives and if you ran out you had to start over from the beginning.

That only goes for games i consider to be masterpieces. If i don't like it then any clear will suffice. Like clearing PoFV with Aya or just barely clearing LLS.

Holy shit get over yourself. This is the same attitude that caused everyone to jump on you when you said my Lunatic 1cc of PCB didn't count because it was with SakuyaB.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on August 11, 2010, 05:07:47 AM
So, just because it's a game that's made by ZUN, you have an obligation to clear it?

Bah. Might as well just try scoring in DS. If you're gonna download tons of replays with the desire to micromemorize shit...

And it's the same as having Spell Practice. :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 05:45:02 AM
Holy shit get over yourself. This is the same attitude that caused everyone to jump on you when you said my Lunatic 1cc of PCB didn't count because it was with SakuyaB.

The difference is that i find PCB to be way better designed than PoFV. Because PoFV is just some lazy entry in the series without anything spectacular about it you might as well just clear it as fast as possible abusing whatever you can and get back to playing the more solid games. Like PCB.

Unless you are a fan of PoFV. Then you can go clear with a "legit" character.

Besides, i didn't mean that your 1cc of PCB didn't count (though i probably worded it wrong). I just wanted you to try to do it with a character that isn't as broken as SakuyaB and try to make a good clear. That will just feel more satisfactory unless in fact the goal was to clear the game just to get the game out of the way.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: MTSranger on August 11, 2010, 05:52:50 AM
Imo UFO does have a weird difficulty jump, in that...
If you can barely dodge the stuff, in other games, you might clear 0/0 or something,
but in UFO you will die horribly.
On the other hand, if you are very comfortable dodging the stuff,
then UFO would not be very hard as you can collect bajillions of lives/bombs.

For me, UFO does cause more rage than any other game (except DS/StB, but I don't really play those)

Oh, and maybe I suck too much, but somehow I can't get used to SakuyaB in PCB...
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Kayin on August 11, 2010, 05:57:48 AM
The difference is that i find PCB to be way better designed than PoFV. Because PoFV is just some lazy entry in the series without anything spectacular about it you might as well just clear it as fast as possible abusing whatever you can and get back to playing the more solid games. Like PCB.

Unless you are a fan of PoFV. Then you can go clear with a "legit" character.

Besides, i didn't mean that your 1cc of PCB didn't count (though i probably worded it wrong). I just wanted you to try to do it with a character that isn't as broken as SakuyaB and try to make a good clear. That will just feel more satisfactory unless in fact the goal was to clear the game just to get the game out of the way.

PoFV isn't lazy, it's just meant to be a PvP game.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 11, 2010, 06:00:53 AM
That just contradicts what i'm usually told about UFO. That its not too much harder than the other Touhou games.
Sauce.

Besides, i didn't mean that your 1cc of PCB didn't count (though i probably worded it wrong). I just wanted you to try to do it with a character that isn't as broken as SakuyaB and try to make a good clear.
Well ... you worded it wrong again :colonveeplusalpha:
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 06:08:57 AM
Well ... you worded it wrong again :colonveeplusalpha:

How? If you like the game and you just barely clear it in the most abusing manner wouldn't it be a good idea to work towards a better run?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 11, 2010, 06:10:38 AM
You worded it wrong because you're still telling him it doesn't count.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 06:17:41 AM
In the sense that i still call SakuyuB broken? Or the fact that i say that he should aim for a good clear? Or something entirely else?

SakuyaB i indeed find broken. I played once with her and even though things went horrible i still managed to win with 5 lives in stock.

And i wouldn't call a 1cc that finishes with 0/0 a good run in any sense of the word. You should be happy about it if it marks any improvement for you but i just say that SenSageUn should try to improve it because it will be more satisfying that way. I'm saying this because my first 1cc ended 4/0 iirc and i didn't think it was a good run either because the score was crap.

Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: ebarrett on August 11, 2010, 06:23:22 AM
That just contradicts what i'm usually told about UFO. That its not too much harder than the other Touhou games.
That's probably what Baity tells you. Usain Bolt will also tell you that running a hundred meters under 10 seconds is no big deal.

And i wouldn't call a 1cc that finishes with 0/0 a good run in any sense of the word. You should be happy about it if it marks any improvement for you but i just say that SenSageUn should try to improve it because it will be more satisfying that way. I'm saying this because my first 1cc ended 4/0 iirc and i didn't think it was a good run either because the score was crap.
You should rethink the "elitist by accident" thing, y'know. There have been 0/0 clears (or something near 0/0) in the last few days which were completely satisfying for their owners until you started to crap on them and tell people that they're not good enough.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on August 11, 2010, 06:24:52 AM
A 1cc is a 1cc. There's no way to debate about it.

I mean, sure. SakuyaB is one of the higher damage dealers with a shit load of bombs through the game. But there's a lot of ways you can go about 1cc'ing the games, you know.

It doesn't matter if it could be improved, it's a 1cc.

Though, I bet I could 1cc MoF Lunatic with MarisaC, capture VoWG in that 1cc attempt and bombspam the rest of the game and I'd get some flak about not using ReimuB.

Although it's not like I'd go "WHY CAN'T I 1CC MOUNTAIN OF FAITH LUNATIC DURR HURR"
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 06:51:24 AM
There have been 0/0 clears (or something near 0/0) in the last few days which were completely satisfying for their owners until you started to crap on them and tell people that they're not good enough.

Really? All i want for people is to try and get better based on my own experiences with 0/0 clears. I guess i have been an evil SoB...
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Vibri on August 11, 2010, 07:00:03 AM
1ccs don't count if you use a bomb anywhere
why don't you just face the danmaku you fucking pussies
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Kilgamayan on August 11, 2010, 07:01:54 AM
1ccs? what a fucking joke

1lc or get the hell out of my touhou, you secondaries
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Vibri on August 11, 2010, 07:04:38 AM
spellcard capture more like "skipping 3/4ths of the bullets"

last I checked touhou was a danmaku shooter not a cheat your way out of dodging things shooter
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 11, 2010, 07:06:55 AM
Y-you know, after really looking at it, I'm gonna stay far away from this thread from now on. ;>_>
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2010, 07:11:49 AM
spellcard capture more like "skipping 3/4ths of the bullets"

last I checked touhou was a danmaku shooter not a cheat your way out of dodging things shooter
yeah people god, stop being a bitch and shooting the fairies, just deal with it and dodge the motherfucking bullets
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: The Greatest Dog on August 11, 2010, 07:19:38 AM
EoSD.
Bomb Stock = 0
Life Stock = 1
No Visible Hitbox Patch
90FPS

Fuck, what am I saying? Are we taking this seriously?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Vibri on August 11, 2010, 07:21:48 AM
No no no no your 1ccs still count they're just garbage is all
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on August 11, 2010, 07:35:59 AM
EoSD.
Bomb Stock = 0
Life Stock = 1
No Visible Hitbox Patch
90FPS

Fuck, what am I saying? Are we taking this seriously?
Difficulty?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Serela on August 11, 2010, 07:37:49 AM
Difficulty?
EoSD Ultra Hack ofc
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 07:40:05 AM
I don't think whatever i have to say would help. I guess i'll just shut up now and try to be more of a nice guy in the future.

Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: trancehime on August 11, 2010, 08:13:48 AM
1ccs? what a fucking joke

1lc or get the hell out of my touhou, you secondaries

I 1LC'd HRtP Jigoku Normal, does that count? :ohdear:

Really? All i want for people is to try and get better based on my own experiences with 0/0 clears. I guess i have been an evil SoB...

It's less that and more that you were completely insensitive to these people in question. I am by no means a very good Touhou player and you yourself refused to believe that I was capable of 1cc'ing the PC-98 games despite me, y'know, playing Touhou PC-98 games since 2004? And I only managed these 1cc's YEARS AFTER? Christ. Have some empathy. And yes I still remember when you would argue this with Donut and I before.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 08:23:30 AM
At that time i didn't know anything about you. You was just a person who suddenly showed up and claimed to have done some 1LC, maybe don't remember specifics, of Mystic Square without any proof at all. Like a screenshot or something. I would still find that fishy today no matter who claimed such a thing unless they got proof.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: trancehime on August 11, 2010, 08:27:27 AM
I just mentioned which game I 1LC'd...

Also I was here long before almost all of you :/ Unless you meant the Help Me Eirin! board  :derp:
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 09:41:36 AM
I just mentioned which game I 1LC'd...

Also I was here long before almost all of you :/ Unless you meant the Help Me Eirin! board  :derp:

Yes and i didn't believe you. It was too outlandish. The fact that you had played the PC-98 games since 2004 made it much more believeable though.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Alice Fact on August 11, 2010, 10:01:18 AM
The difference is that i find PCB to be way better designed than PoFV. Because PoFV is just some lazy entry in the series without anything spectacular about it you might as well just clear it as fast as possible abusing whatever you can and get back to playing the more solid games. Like PCB.
do you even know what PoFV is
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 10:13:54 AM
do you even know what PoFV is

Yes i do. And because i don't like it i'm contempt with a lunatic 1cc even if it is with Aya. Its concept is very different from regular Touhou games but i don't like the style of gameplay and i don't like the random nature of it. Like having to dodge Lily White while Komachi simultaneously goes on screen to spam her coin attacks.

But i understand that there is a lot of people who likes PoFV so i have decided not to complain too much about it. Its just not my type of game so i'm well satisfied with an Aya 1cc even if people find her broken.

You might find that quite hypocritical of a person who have "shelled" a person for using SakuyaB to clear PCB. But i don't really think it is.
Title: Bullshit
Post by: Tengukami on August 11, 2010, 10:28:29 AM
It's really too bad that sneering arrogance can't be converted into electricity.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 10:42:47 AM
sorry
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on August 11, 2010, 10:44:20 AM
Quote
circling
goddamn I guess Ketsui must suck pretty hard then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYq5wctVczY#t=4m14s)

In all seriousness, I don't see what the problem is with an attack you actually have to put in some effort to learn how to clear. There are certain fun patterns that simply wouldn't be possible to make in such a way that everyone would be able to clear them the first time, and yes, the UFO Stage 3 circling is pretty damn fun once you get it down. Just because earlier games in the series like PCB don't really do this doesn't make it a bad thing, it's just a slightly different style. It probably doesn't help your impressions of it that UFO is difficult, but that's beside the point; bullshit it ain't, it's perfectly doable with a little practice.

If, however, you're completely set on this 'any kind of learning attack is bad' thing, you might want to give PoFV another try. That's as reflexive as it ge-
i don't like the random nature of [PoFV]
... :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 11, 2010, 11:05:18 AM
Phew. I dunno what to say anymore. Its stupid for me to go on. No. It probably isn't a problem if i have to learn something about an attack.

The solution to Orin's 1st card isn't obvious for example and i find that to be quite a blast. Its probably just me who doesn't like UFO and tries to point towards a reason.

In short, i don't like UFO. Because it is UFO.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on August 11, 2010, 02:15:21 PM
goddamn I guess Ketsui must suck pretty hard then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYq5wctVczY#t=4m14s)

That attack falls under the it's obvious that you have to circle around it.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 11, 2010, 02:43:14 PM
Same goes for pre-Ichirin spam. What do you do if you're pushed into the corner and the wave doesn't seem to let up ?
Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1ygfDh7zrY#t=2m48)
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on August 11, 2010, 11:19:40 PM
So it's been called to staff attention that some people have said things in this thread (and others) that are less than acceptable here on MotK.

Let this post be considered as the first and only warning to shut your mouths when it comes to bickering. Yes, this thread is specifically titled "Touhou debate thread", but that's no reason for some o' you folks to attack each other personally and belittle other people's accomplishments. If we catch one more person slamming other people's successes in Touhou as "not good enough", expect punishment to come on swift wings. Already a few of you have earned probations, so be looking out for them. We are quite serious about maintaining a common decency in HME, and if this warning and probations do not serve that purpose, then we can and will escalate the level of punishments we hand out.

Oh, and for the rest of you silent majority-- don't you dare think that this doesn't reflect badly on you, either. I know there are quite a few of you folks who refrained from hitting the "report to moderator" button for some ungodly reason, and this behaviour is also less than acceptable. If someone is talking trash about other players' work and making less of their hard-earned accomplishments, you report that goddamned post and don't dally about it. Worst case scenario is staff doesn't think anything of it; best case is that you help us administer just punishment to offenders, and help maintain an atmosphere of decency here in HME. You have nothing to lose, so stop thinking that threads like these are a necessary evil when they do not have to be, and you have a whole team of staff ready to fall all over themselves to punish jackasses and maintain order.

Now, then. What has gone on in this thread is worse than some other things we've probated people for in the past, so expect some punishment to rain down on certain persons. Now, this normally doesn't happen, but I'm going to call some people out here by name: Enigma. Zengeku. Bananamatic. These three in specific have posted in this thread (and in others) with either bitching or outright offensive behaviour. To you three: hold on tight while your just punishment is delivered. (Arguing will not help your positions any, by the way.) And a lot of others in this thread whose posts we are analyzing came borderline to their behaviour, so don't expect much mercy-- expect probations instead.

This thread is being kept open, at least for now, because we believe that this warning is all you need. If we are proven wrong, though, expect this thread to be locked and justice administered to all offenders. If you good folks of HME are still capable of critical analysis and giving advice without stooping to the level of "fuck you I'm not doing any work" that we've seen thus far, continue debating in this thread. If not, then we shall just have to see what happens, won't we?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Alice Fact on August 12, 2010, 12:38:42 AM
this might be the best post ever
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Zengeku on August 12, 2010, 04:52:08 PM
Read and understood. When and how will the punishment fall?
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on August 12, 2010, 11:22:34 PM
All of you are probated for at least a week, starting today. Up to another week will be added according to the staff's judgment, but no more than that.

And to anyone who gets the bright idea to delete their account, we're not approving any of those requests without good reason, and trying to duck a probation is not one of them. We will see you around here in two weeks.

The rest of you can continue this thread now, y'know.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Sapz on August 12, 2010, 11:57:52 PM
Welp. :derp:

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points, or Yukari's Last Word final phase, or silly shit like the suicide bullets that spawn more suicide bullets in SoEW Lunatic. Personally, I am not a big fan of these. :V
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 13, 2010, 12:03:24 AM
I have two big pet peeves when it comes to danmaku, more than anything else: Bullets that spawn on top of you, and attacks that come from below. Thankfully in the official games neither is too common, at least without proper warning (though sadly enemies from below were more prevalent in PC-98). Still, attacks like Eirin's second non-spell are always the mark of an unfun fight in my book. The biggest flaw with Phantasm Romance is that some of the later stages are full of these attacks, and some are even aimed to spawn on you. That isn't dodging; dodging is when you have time to react.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: ARF on August 13, 2010, 12:11:44 AM
...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points?

I don't like the ones in Red magic. It's like I'm getting killed from invisible bullets sometimes.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: orinrin on August 13, 2010, 12:12:31 AM
As for attacks that come from below, I think maybe ZUN should add a flashing warning indicator or something that might help those who aren't familiar with the game/stage.  I dunno, just my two-cents. 


There's always the option of playing the game more than once though.   :V


I don't like the ones in Red magic. It's like I'm getting killed from invisible bullets sometimes.
I think the Red Magic bullets are fairly obvious as to where they spawn, but that's just my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Azinth on August 13, 2010, 12:21:32 AM
Welp. :derp:

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points, or Yukari's Last Word final phase, or silly shit like the suicide bullets that spawn more suicide bullets in SoEW Lunatic. Personally, I am not a big fan of these. :V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YSH95x7O4#t=4m17s 8)

Well, I guess it depends on what you want out of the game.  They're annoying to deal with on the first few playthroughs, but if I'm playing a game I want to get good at, I usually end up playing through it dozens of times, if not hundreds.  After the first few dozen playthroughs, I doubt such attacks will still be a problem, since by then I know what's coming.

After a while, I've even developed a bit of an affection for all those lightning fast insta-death attacks you find in stuff like Banshiryuu or Gunbird 2.  They keep you movin'
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: shadowbringer on August 13, 2010, 12:32:03 AM
Welp. :derp:

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points, or Yukari's Last Word final phase, or silly shit like the suicide bullets that spawn more suicide bullets in SoEW Lunatic. Personally, I am not a big fan of these. :V

I'd say frustrating at first, but avoidable later, in another run ;p (some of Mima's patterns in Phantasm Romance aren't obvious enough, so I at first got hit by aimed star streams while paying attention to the rest of the pattern, or didn't think about getting close to her to avoid being left at the outside of her circle of stars). I don't like attacks which sort of force you to memorize them beforehand (I don't like having to keep information on my mind while I'm playing, because it's distracting.. examples being the spawn points of certain enemies/enemy formations in EoSD's stage 4 and some of the fairies in stage 5), and I don't like how Yukari's last word (*except* the final phase :V)'s more about memorization than dodging.. (put the same effort in memorizing it as you would put in dodging it, have better chances of capturing it).

Another things that I don't like in EoSD (besides scoring stuff) are.. large bubble bullets which have confusing hitboxes (so I think to myself.. "how much space do they really take?", "is this path really okay?").. Sakuya's knives (where's their hitbox? And the flames'?), and how some attacks have some good clipping potential (one of Meiling's nonspells, in which she spreads spiraling kunai streams, and Patchy's second Non-Directional Laser).

Meanwhile, what I like in PoFV (since it may help people enjoy it more, or not ;p) is how you can use fairies to clear areas of bullets; the chaining is lenient enough, and losing it doesn't mean much (unless you're having lots of BONUS!, of course :p), since if you're playing for survival, you should be resetting your chain sometimes, in order to resummon bosses (at 100k, 300k and 500k). Also, there's lots of bombs on it, like in Varth, and just like in Varth, you mustn't overuse them :p (but still use them, since then you'll raise the level of your ex attacks). As for Lily+Komachi, or even Lily+Sikieiki, you can either lvl 2 Lily's bullets, or keep your chain going so that your boss summon cancel Komachi's. (though if the Komachi is an human player, then... :V)
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Ghaleon on August 13, 2010, 12:48:36 AM
One of my biggest pet-peeves is heavy emphasis on memorizing where enemies spawn. This is more of a problem with other shmups more than Touhou, but it happens in Touhou occasionally too. For example, EoSD stage 4, if you're not homing Reimu, and you forget when/where/how those spark-things spawn after the mid-boss (middle left, middle, far left, far right, middle, mid right, far right, far left IIRC)...You're pretty much forced to die or bomb unless you can dodge the books on lunatic with your eyes closed.

This is the biggest reason why I can't enjoy UFO as much as the other Touhou's. Because it is pretty important to remember where the UFO's spawn, what colors they are, etc. It wouldn't be so bad if I played one game and stuck with it for awhile, practiced it, etc. But I generally launch each Touhou like once a week, play a few times, then quit, so it's really a matter of personal taste for me than "bs" in a game.

Oddly spawning bullets I think are something everyone hates. Red Magic is a bad example IMO because they spawn directly behind the large bubble bullets. So you can predict how they'll spawn in advance, and if you can't, it's really your own fault. I find it more annoying how fast/suddenly fairies spawn near the top of the screen sometimes. I mean the whole "point of collection" thing is pretty unique to Touhou I think (only shmup I know that has one), so the player is encouraged to fly near the top of the screen sometimes, but sometimes those fairies just zoom out and own you. Almost every time I'm going for a first 1cc on a Touhou game, I only succeed after I get a basic grasp of when it's safe to fly to the poc in advance or not.

Shmups really are pretty mysterious. They really lull you into thinking that they require memorization less than pretty much any genre. And while it's indeed possible to excell at them via great skill without memorizing anything, it still helps alot more than you expect. Sometimes people claim a shmup is bs because it requires too much or whatever, and they quote another shmup which supposedly doesn't, but every time I try them, fact is they do and they really take for granted how much they play it without really thinking about it. Every little nuance like hanging on the left side of the screen before the enemies spawn there, to how to get a certain powerup/extralife/secret stage (memorizing 16 invisible bee point items in DDP PER STAGE for the secret stage? ugh), to starting off a stream-heavy attack on the far side instead of in the middle, they really add up into being massively important. So part of me feels like a hypocrite for not liking UFO'S emphasis on memorizing enemy spawnpoints/UFOs, but it's really the only reason that makes me fail to enjoy the game as much as the others.

Another Touhou subject of angst: Curvey lasers:

Do the experienced players actually read them so that they know where they will go when they are shot? Or is it just kind of a "twitch" thing as they get close for everyone?

Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: nintendonut888 on August 13, 2010, 12:54:43 AM
I assume by "curvy lasers" you mean Shou. Yeah, it's a matter of reading them, as twitch dodging doesn't help much. ZUN himself says they require really good reflexes to dodge, and it's not easy.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: ふねん1 on August 13, 2010, 02:23:22 AM
I have no Internet for a couple of days, and look what I miss. If that's even worth missing. I won't bother.

...Out of random interest, what do you guys think of bullets that can potentially spawn on you/have otherwise non-obvious spawn points? Things like those sphere enemies in UFO Stage 2, or Kogasa's second boss card with the weird moving bullet spawn points
For the first one, I never have to stay far above the bottom anyway. "Don't stay near them" pretty much negates any risk of that. Similar for Kogasa's second boss card. I can't really comment on the others since I've yet to play them. You really don't see this concept much, thank God. Regarding Remilia, it's only Vampire Illusion and Scarlet Gensokyo (and their lower equivalents) that do this, right? And it should be possible to judge where they spawn based on the bubbles, right?

Memorizing enemy locations just comes naturally over time. You play a stage some, you get familiar with what formations show up without even knowing it. I'm not well-versed in other shumps, but do enemy spawn points ever change significantly in those?

EDIT: Oh, and I think I remember Meiling's last Spellcard once spawning a bullet on top of me. I wonder if this is more common than I think, and it's the way I approach said attacks that nullifies any chance of it happening.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: MTSranger on August 13, 2010, 05:03:01 AM
For Kogasa's 2nd card, I do really hate those weird spawn points.
However, it's also partly because with so many bullets packed in the same place,
it wrecks harvoc on my ability to read bullets (like is this one pointing vertically going UP or DOWN?),
which makes me panic, as although only 1/4 have remotely any chance of hitting me, I don't know which ones.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 13, 2010, 05:24:02 AM
Kogasa's 2nd card never gets me if I hang around the Enemy sign. UFO Stage 2 enemies have delay frames so I never stay on top of them for too long either.
But Scarlet Gensokyo, ugh, it's easy to get killed by a spawning bullet by successfully dodging the superdense bubble wave. Thanks to the random firing angle you either end up on a safe area, or the bubble's trail.

Memorization in shmups
It's my biggest pet-peeve too, but I usually just convince myself with "this part can be done easily with memorization, but with enough skill I can make it out just fine anyways" and "keep playing it over and over". Funny it's how I got my 1ccs in UFO (no UFO routes) and DDP (no superplays, no savestates).
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: MTSranger on August 13, 2010, 05:43:04 AM
I don't find Scarlet Gensokyo much of a problem in terms of bullet spawning points.
I mean, as long as you don't move more than one tap away, you won't get spawned on even in the dense areas.
It's those lolwalls that come at the same time as the superdense bubble wave that get me.

I hate the memorization as well, especially those that have small margin of error (UFO!), where you really can't screw up.

Then there is the lag problem, which I solved just now with the wonderful vsync patch.
Unfortunately, it didn't work for my English-patched EoSD.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Formless God on August 13, 2010, 06:00:50 AM
You have to rename the English launcher to either 東方紅魔郷.exe or ?????g????.exe , if it still fails you can run the game in 640x480 screen resolution :/
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Drake on August 13, 2010, 06:27:39 AM
In Touhou, most bullets-that-might-spawn-on-top of you don't bother me at all. It's made obvious in Kogasa's second card where they spawn, and the enemies that explode when you hit them are pretty easy to control. Eirin's second non-card even on Lunatic is pretty fair in this regard, too.

Dying to Vamp Illusion / Scarlet Gensokyo because of bullets that have a super long delay time just makes my day. I laugh my ass off at stuff like that.
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osf1fa4UhP4) Seriously this is even more dumb than that and it's fucking hilarious. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7baYJ-hK938)
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Tengukami on August 13, 2010, 07:10:55 AM
I love you so much, Ruro.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: Iryan on August 13, 2010, 10:56:53 AM
Bullets that spawn in unpredictable locations and that are not prevented from spawning in extreme proximity to the player are pretty bullshitty, but off the top of my head I can't think of patterns like this in touhou.
Title: Re: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)
Post by: shadowbringer on August 13, 2010, 02:03:12 PM
In Touhou, most bullets-that-might-spawn-on-top of you don't bother me at all. It's made obvious in Kogasa's second card where they spawn, and the enemies that explode when you hit them are pretty easy to control. Eirin's second non-card even on Lunatic is pretty fair in this regard, too.

Dying to Vamp Illusion / Scarlet Gensokyo because of bullets that have a super long delay time just makes my day. I laugh my ass off at stuff like that.
 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osf1fa4UhP4) Seriously this is even more dumb than that and it's fucking hilarious. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7baYJ-hK938)

Kogasa's sc (at least on Normal) is usually.. "if the blue circle containing her is small, avoid the center; if it expands itself, go towards it to damage her as the bullets aren't as condensed"

the second video reminds me of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMU8CHdXyvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VNrkaqkR-s

also, to illustrate what I've complained about EoSD before..
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9579

(and here are some of my previous attempts, they may be less interesting, though, since I didn't memorize the game well enough back then [1])
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9577
http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9539

[1] under one week of trying to 1cc it, while challenging a friend of mine (who've 1cc'd it before) to reach DDP's second loop before I 1cc EoSD Lunatic :p  (could've challenged him to reach 5,500,000 points in Varth instead, as I had to play it without pods until stage 16.. shouldn't I have gotten that score after said Lunatic 1cc)