Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: OkashiiKisei on December 13, 2009, 02:12:55 AM
-
------------------------
CAUTION - CAUTION - CAUTION
A WALL OF TEXT
IS FAST APPROACHING
------------------------
EDIT: This thread was originally titled 'Theory: Suika isn't the only giant', with as subject the notion that Touhou's grow in size when they are bosses and/or use powerful spellcards. The thread has spriraled so far from the original notion that the name is changed to fit the current subject more. This first post will still be about the Boss Growth theory, but after that, starting from Sakana's post, it's about the Gensokyo Drug Abuse theory, or PNP-Theory (Power aNd Point items). It would still be important to read this first post to understand the theory completely. Without further ado, read on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We all know Suika's main use of her density powers is making herself ginormous, right?
This ability seems to be unique to only her, but recently I have noticed something that might not make it so unique after all.
When looking at the sprites of the characters (particulary PoFV), I noticed one major difference between player sprites and boss sprites.
Boss sprites are three times larger than player sprites.
Alright, let's all ignore any gameplay and/or production oriented answers for this, and use Gensokyo logic instead.
I theorise that all magic users in Touhou grow in size when exerting a large amount of their strength.
Think about it. The boss characters have loads of health and use extremely complex and powerful spellcards and patterns. They need lots of power to do all that. The player meanwhile only shoots a few bullets and go down with one hit, only able to use spellcards that go on for a short limit of time. They use way less power. In other words, when being an 'attacker' the girls use a small amount of their power, staying their normal size. But when they have to be a 'defender', they need to exert way more power for their flashy moves. This results in them growing in size.
In PoFV, every character has this. On your side of the screen, they're midgets, but when using a spellcard your character appears three times her normal size on the enemy's screen, using devastating moves. Characters stay their normal size in the fighting games because they mostly use physical attacks and small spells, instead of their usual Bullet Hell danmaku fighting. Thus, they exert less power, and stay normal size.
Suika is just capable of growing bigger than that whenever she wants to. Others can only do it at times of extreme power exertion.
I know it's a wacky theory, but I thought it might be fun to consider. :V
-
The notion that all touhous acquire HUGE GUTS when they declare is a hilarious mental image.
-
:ChoMarisa.jpg:
-
I dunno, I'm pretty sure the boss sprites are just bigger so you c--
Alright, let's all ignore any gameplay and/or production oriented answers for this, and use Gensokyo logic instead.
Bawww, that's cheating XD
-
Gensokyo logic? As in 'nonsense theories are welcome'? Well, why not~ :V
WARNING! Wall of text approaching!
*fixes glasses*
Ahem, so students, today I'm gonna talk about what your classmate OkashiiNaito asked yesterday. Let's see...
Ok, so my guess is that it has to do with this red and blue pills that we know as power and point items. If we assume they're a kind of power-enhancing drug, combined with your argument that using power makes the character bigger, it all makes sense.
As we know, the player characters take in those pills (not in PoFV, but whatever) to strengthen themselves, but only up to a certain amount. There's a threshold after which they would probably grow in size as well, that's what we know as 'Max Power'.
It would also explain why (in some games) you get extra lives for points: It shows the accumulated power that is enough to revive a person after being hit by a bullet.
Now where do we get those pills from? Yes, from the enemies, the fairies as well as the bosses.
Remember, not only the bosses are bigger than the player, usual fairies also appear bigger than they should be in comparison to a human. But when they die, or when a boss loses a good part of her strength, those pills become freed from their body and float around until they're taken in by somebody else.
That also applies for when the player dies, as we all know.
So, in conclusion, the fairies as well as the bosses have taken those drugs before each and every battle, thus increasing their size.
If we reverse this theory, then a fairy that could survive the player's onslaught and grab the pill it lost it could grow in size and attack again. In the same fashion could a boss regain strength if she were to recollect the pills she loses after a spellcard or were to take in those dropped by a player on death. A frightening perspective indeed...
So, this concludes my lesson on drug-abuse in Gensokyo :V
(Btw, just to avoid a wrong impression, I'm not laughing at Naito's theory, I just wanted to present my thoughts in a humourous manner. I see what I said as one possible theory to explain the phenomenom described in the OP)
-
I have a buddy that thinks Byakuren is like 8 feet tall, because of her boss sprite :V
-
When a large Tewi enters your screen as boss mode, you know you are screwed.
-
So, this concludes my lesson on drug-abuse in Gensokyo :V
Win, my friend. Absolute win XD
-
Ok, so my guess is that it has to do with this red and blue pills that we know as power and point items. If we assume they're a kind of power-enhancing drug, combined with your argument that using power makes the character bigger, it all makes sense.
As we know, the player characters take in those pills (not in PoFV, but whatever) to strengthen themselves, but only up to a certain amount. There's a threshold after which they would probably grow in size as well, that's what we know as 'Max Power'.
It would also explain why (in some games) you get extra lives for points: It shows the accumulated power that is enough to revive a person after being hit by a bullet.
Now where do we get those pills from? Yes, from the enemies, the fairies as well as the bosses.
Remember, not only the bosses are bigger than the player, usual fairies also appear bigger than they should be in comparison to a human. But when they die, or when a boss loses a good part of her strength, those pills become freed from their body and float around until they're taken in by somebody else.
That also applies for when the player dies, as we all know.
So, in conclusion, the fairies as well as the bosses have taken those drugs before each and every battle, thus increasing their size.
Perhaps what makes the player character avoid growing in size is because they only absorb fragments of the drug, while the bosses and fairies have probably taken a very potent version of the drug, increasing their size. Another explanation is that the bosses are going all out, and thus exert the power of the drugs in full, making them grow, while the player is trying as hard as possible to keep going and to conserve energy to make it through subsequent stages and bosses, concentrating to maintain their size. When concentrating, they are able to surpress the growth of their bodies and unleashment of valuable power, and instead siphon the power into extra lives.
This discussion is starting to make me wonder what would happen when a Touhou overdoses on the drug....transformation into ones feral youkai form perhaps? Most youkai used to be beastial before becoming loli's.
-
Oh god, we're making a drug-based theory of Gensokyo, and the worst thing is that it wokrs pretty well :V
So, let's continue for a bit.
Hm, in fact I think we can even tell where the drug concentration takes place in the users body: The hitbox.
If we accept that, then it would make sense that the hitbox is the only vurnerable place on a character. Hitting the concentration point of the drug makes it dissolve and exit the user's body, therefore she loses power and 'dies'.
Because the bosses have taken an overdose, as you have theorized, the drug diffuses in their body, creating the large hitbox that we know. (Guess for yourself what that would mean for Letty :V)
Perhaps what makes the player character avoid growing in size is because they only absorb fragments of the drug, while the bosses and fairies have probably taken a very potent version of the drug, increasing their size.
It could also be that the constant shooting uses enough power to prevent the growing effect. A balance between intake and outcome.
This discussion is starting to make me wonder what would happen when a Touhou overdoses on the drug....transformation into ones feral youkai form perhaps? Most youkai used to be beastial before becoming loli's.
Well, taking your last statement we could guess that, first of all, contact with the drug makes a non-human being or object change into a humanoid loli carrying signs of her former appearance (ears, tail...). That would be the process of becoming a youkai, giving the being individualized special powers in the process.
As for how even further obverdosing would change an already drugged being, I cannot imagine right now. But seeing as some of the stronger youkai have a more adult body, maybe it makes them not only grow in size, but also results in aging, leading to a much mature appearance if one has taken more of the drug.
What is now on my mind is: Is that drug leading to addiction?
Because if it is, we might have to closely reexamine the reasons why Reimu goes on a regular rampage against fairies, youkais and other strong beings.
Is it really to save Gensokyo, or is it her need for something else? :V
-
Well, taking your last statement we could guess that, first of all, contact with the drug makes a non-human being or object change into a humanoid loli carrying signs of her former appearance (ears, tail...). That would be the process of becoming a youkai, giving the being individualized special powers in the process.
As for how even further obverdosing would change an already drugged being, I cannot imagine right now. But seeing as some of the stronger youkai have a more adult body, maybe it makes them not only grow in size, but also results in aging, leading to a much mature appearance if one has taken more of the drug.
What is now on my mind is: Is that drug leading to addiction?
Because if it is, we might have to closely reexamine the reasons why Reimu goes on a regular rampage against fairies, youkais and other strong beings.
Is it really to save Gensokyo, or is it her need for something else? :V
Ok, for the first point, it's starting to seem like the point drug has an Bishonen Line side effect. From beast/in-animate object to loli, to giant loli, to bishoujo, and who knows what lies beyond that? When looking at the Bishonen Line graph on TV Tropes and we assume that bishoujo isn't the final stage, they will probably turn into godly beautiful beings, and be just as powerful. But if the bishoujo stage is indeed the final stage then, according to the Bishonen Line, they will turn monstrous again before returning to humanoid. So for example Remi would turn into a Dracula-esque dragon bat if she would overdose. Yukari would either turn into Azatoth or Giratina :V
For the second point......sweet Byakuren. It is all so clear now. The reason why Reimu attacks innocent youkai (R.I.P. Orange), is the first to act on incidents, has not much contact with humans......it's all because of her power hungry drug abuse. Think about it: she's incredibly lazy, and why do people take steroids? Because they are to lazy to train. The points are hyper magic steroids. It all clicks together. Reimu will keep collecting points without end, until she's either the most powerful being in Gensokyo or if she too turns monstrous. And since she only hangs out with other youkai and magical humans who use the exact same stuff, they will only SUPPORT her! No human being would be able, or dare, to stop her from her mad lust for power. We have unraveled Reimu's goal! Her driving point! And if you look closely....the same is happening to Sanae too.......
-
I have to save that thread once we run out of ideas. That might make for some nice fiction material in the future :V
Just some small additions now before I go to sleep:
Bishonen Line
We should make that 'Bishoujo' or else I fear for our cute Touhou girls. Unless the drugs ultimate effect when overdosed was genderswap, which would be horrible.
Though it would make [:ChoMarisa:] fit into the theory pretty well.
they will turn monstrous again before returning to humanoid.
We might see a case of this here (http://www.hachikuma.net/img/fb_rpg14M.png). A frightening perspective indeed. Though it would be hard to determine into what the ones that have not been an animal before would turn into. That would actually be a rather large part of the cast, if not the majority. And I can't think of anything monstrous that, for example, Cirno would turn into.
And if you look closely....the same is happening to Sanae too.......
Though her case might be even more tragic, seeing as we could speculate that she was forced into taking the drug by her godesses in order to gather faith. Losing against Reimu & Marisa could then have made her use so much of the drug that her powers and addiction reached the level at which she could qualify as a player character.
That would also take the whole 'Youkai-Nazi' point from her. Rather should her excitement be explained by the intake of the drug and the following disappearance of withdrawal effects.
And since I mentioned Marisa:
Notice that she runs on shrooms in addition to the drug, meaning she gains an extra power boost.
That can easily be perceived when she releases the overflowing energy in the form of her favourite move 'Master Spark', or even worse 'Final Spark'. There are no other spellcards that I can state right now that have about the same amount of pure destructive power as those.
Also the absurd-power-laser-Marisa in MoF might have been far from a programming error, but rather the effect of her drug-consumation that resulted in an uncontrollable power leak. Would she have tried to hold that energy in, then she would have likely grown to the size of a boss.
And if we accept the existance of [:ChoMarisa:], something I hardly want to do, we can easily see the effects that overdosing the drug has on a human body (if we take magicians as humans), though it might have different results on a youkai.
-
I'm already having some ideas about how we could turn this into a story ;D
Sorry, I just used the official term from TV Tropes. I didn't mean to give you the idea the drug causes gender swap too. Perhaps it is for the better we use Bishoujo Line when regarding Touhou characters. And indeed, I don't like the idea of Cho Marisa either....*shiver* Though the Mushroom thing really does explain Marisa's overpoweredness.
We might see a case of this here (http://www.hachikuma.net/img/fb_rpg14M.png). A frightening perspective indeed. Though it would be hard to determine into what the ones that have not been an animal before would turn into. That would actually be a rather large part of the cast, if not the majority. And I can't think of anything monstrous that, for example, Cirno would turn into.
Well, I already do have some ideas of what the characters could turn into. As already mentioned, Remi would turn into a dragon bat that seems at home in the Castlevania games, and Meiling would make a good Chinese dragon (may it either be the multi headed brute in the picture, or a more anthropomorphic form).
I imagine Cirno and the other fairies to turn into blazing entities, completely composed of the element they represent. They would also sport more diabolical wings and have slight inhuman features like long claws. Their face would be completely obscured by the blaze, save for piercing, glowing eyes. They would quite literally be Energy Beings.
For Patchy, I imagine her to turn into a purple version of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtzkVuQTDbM
Flan's a vampire like Remi too, but her wings suggest that she isn't really of the normal kind. Instead of a dragonic vampire bat, I think she would rather turn into a horrific crystaline flea or mosquito (hey, they're blood suckers). And Rumia would be some tentacle monster made of darkness.
With enough time and a tiny bit of 'imaaaagination', I think it would be quite easy to make monster forms for almost all the girls (with as possible exception the humans).
-
I think that rather than trying to make a story out of this theory.
We can make it more sceintific...
The realist's guide to gensokyo or something.
A compilation of theories that explain the inner workings of the fantasy universe.
It would be more entertaining than just a story.
Considering this theory though, I'd like to expand on it.
(Hold for wall of text)
Back in the forst couple windows games bosses released 1UP,s upon defeat. This changed in SA, and bosses only gave out pieces of star on defeat. The stage one bosses in SA were signifigantly harder than their equivalent in MoF.
If the theory still holds that extra lives are also a manifestation of the PNP(Power aNd Point items) WHy did bosses from before MoF release 1Up;s and later bosses only relinquishing pieces of 1UPs? The answer is that as bosses became more difficult, their bodies retianed more and more PNP each use. They were adapting to it, much like drug addicts in our world adapt to their substance. So the amount released when a boss is weakened is less. Fairies are unaffected by this principle however and release the same amount of PNP when killed. This could be why stages are harder in UFO. Or at least that's why I think. Reimu, Marisa and Sanae needed more of the substance so they purposely coose to fly the long route in order to find more generic enemies to get thier fix. Reimu and marisa must have learned in SA that bosses release less PNP, and so they had to find more enemies.
A bomb is like an sobering draught. It releases accumulated power into an attack. If everyone was addicted to PNP(Hey my new term is quite catchy) then why would they wish to expel it? Because the body can only handle so much of it. Hence max power. Or perhaps the player character is restraining themselves. Going by the theories of everyone else on this thread, that seems the most likely case. On that note bombs are essential to these fine folk, as a way to quickly expel excess power. Strangely this makes it seem like binge drinking, but it's really not.
Now UFO's, when summoned they collected PNP from the surroudning area until satiated and then released more PNP when destroyed. Especially blue ones which would release up to 8 times. How do these fall within the theory?
And what is the origin of PNP anyway. What is the history of drug abuse in Gensokyo?
I'm sure that together we can find an answer.
Wow, this is starting to sound like a discovery channel show now...
-
We can make it more sceintific...
The realist's guide to gensokyo or something.
A compilation of theories that explain the inner workings of the fantasy universe.
It would be more entertaining than just a story.
I wouldn't have a problem with that. Though we should take it to the Community Fanworks in that case, because I think we're already straining the borders of Addict Recovery Center here :V
Should we PM one of the mods and ask if a thread for us to discuss those theories would be ok in the Fanworks?
PNP
I approve of that term. So our first theory shall now be known as the 'PNP-Theory' :V
I'm already having some ideas about how we could turn this into a story ;D
Do it, do it , do it! I'd be willing to help out if necessary as well.
-
Good...well, I guess we shall have to move it.
Call it the hitchhikers guide to gensokyo or something like that.
Oh I've got it.
The Outsider's Guide to Gensokyo.
And print that on the front with big friendly letters.
And I'm glad that you like the term I coined ;D
-
Alright, I will get to it in a few hours and create the thread in the Fanworks. I'll put together all parts of the theory that we have created up to now and throw them in there as well so we can continue where we left off or start the next theory. We'll see how it goes.
Also, I think Outsider's Guide is alright, so we'll stick with that.
-
Well, I still need some more theories before it would be a good story. I'm also not very experienced with writing yet, so I'm not sure if I would be any good at making a fine story. Your 'Outsiders Guide to Gensokyo' idea looks very promising though. ;) It's going to be hard to reach the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy's humor though. The 'PNP-Theory' is an awesome name by the way ;D
Now UFO's, when summoned they collected PNP from the surroudning area until satiated and then released more PNP when destroyed. Especially blue ones which would release up to 8 times. How do these fall within the theory?
And what is the origin of PNP anyway. What is the history of drug abuse in Gensokyo?
I'm sure that together we can find an answer.
I think I already have a theory how PNP comes to existance. Gensokyo is one of the few places in the world left with any form of magic. Considering that outside of Gensokyo (and it's adjacent worlds/countries) man hardly beliefs in magic (or even divine interference), it might be quite possible that magical energy is becoming very scarce. When the world used to be more faithful, there was more than enough magical energy for all youkai and sorcerors. They could easily just absorb the magic from the air around them to power their spells.
But now, with an unfaithful world, magic has started to decline. There isn't enough magic left for youkai to freely absorb whenever they want. The only creatures who are still capable of absorbing magical power are fairies and various F.O.E.'s. They process the magical power into the infamous PNP. So, for youkai to maintain their strength, they will be forced to hunt fairies, F.O.E's and sometimes even lesser youkai to obtain more PNP. That's why fairies swarm and are prone to attack when a powerful youkai is around: They are afraid....afraid they will be the next to be 'devoured'. Like various kinds of fish, they gather together and try to defend themselves. Sometimes they aren't capable of distinguishing the attacking youkai from other creautures in the vincinity, and start attacking them too. That's why Reimu gets attacked by swarms of fairies right before she faces the boss: They think she's an enemy too. Thus, Reimu counters the attack to defend herself.
This also explains why bosses have so much more points than you: while you were flying through the stage, they were on a fairy killing spree, getting more and more power to prepare for battle. Sometimes Reimu catches a youkai while she's still charging and hunting, resulting in a mid-boss battle. Eventually the youkai retreats, having underestimated the foe, to collect more power, before returning with far more dangerous attacks.
Gentlemen, we have discovered an actual food chain in Gensokyo! The fairies and F.O.E.'s are the plants, the lesser youkai (stage 1-3 bosses) are the herbivores and the greater youkai (stage 4-6+X bosses) are carnivores. The player characters are omnivores!
The UFO's have to be devices created by powerful youkai to easily harvest magic and process it into PNP. They are basically artificial fairies, capable of producing FAR more PNP than a fairy normaly would, and without any risks of it fleeing or attacking. What these powerful youkai haven't taken in regard is the fact that other beings might destroy these devices and take the containing power for their own!
Youkai get addicted because their biological make up had was once used to a constant nourishment of magic. They are addicted to the magic power. Now that their body's are slowly addapting to the lower amounts of magic, they release less PNP. But their minds are now used to collecting large amounts of PNP, so even though their bodies would need less PNP, they still keep collecting to unhealthy amounts. This might explain youkai's sudden jump in power between MoF and SA: They are starting to overdose more and more. Because of this overdosing, their bodies are starting to swell up to contain the extra amounts of energy. Thus the growth of youkai bodies. Maybe that's why most youkai are female: Female bodies can mostly contain more than male bodies (regarding pregnancy, breast growth etc.). Some of these side effects might also be caused by the notion that PNP is slightly corrupted magical energy, since it has been contained in fairies and other beasties. This could have unhealthy consequences.
Great, now it actually looks like a Discovery Channel documentary.
-
It's going to be hard to reach the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy's humor though.
I don't think we even intend to reach that level. That's just impossible. But we'll all do our best, I suppose :V
Also, I won't do the new thread today. I will need some time to gather what we have and write it up a bit, so maybe on Wednesday I'll be finished. Though if one of you guys wants to do it you may as well.
And last: Nice food chain theory, Naito! It fits in well :V
-
I have a buddy that thinks Byakuren is like 8 feet tall, because of her boss sprite :V
That would not be completely out of the realm of possibility, using Gensokyo logic. Remember, most of Byakuren's magic is self-augmenting, so if nothing else she sounds like she would be likely to make herself really really tall (probably to match the strength and speed she shows in St. Nikou's Air Scroll, which is a wonderful exercise in FUCK THIS BULLET SHIT I'M GONNA PUNCH YOU IN THE JAW). Heck, St. Nikou's Air Scroll is itself renamed Superhuman for lunatic modo, so again, it's not an entirely crazy idea that Byakuren would be eight feet tall...
And this doesn't need to be moved to Fanworks, as it is not yet a full-fledged fanwork, essay or otherwise. I still think this thread ought to continue in this forum as you gather more theories. However, Sakana, should you wish to post those collected theories in Fanworks later on once you have enough, feel free to do so.
-
And this doesn't need to be moved to Fanworks, as it is not yet a full-fledged fanwork, essay or otherwise. I still think this thread ought to continue in this forum as you gather more theories. However, Sakana, should you wish to post those collected theories in Fanworks later on once you have enough, feel free to do so.
Acknowledged. We will then gather more stuff here for the time being.
@ Naito: As you created it, maybe you could change the thread name a bit to represent what we're actually doing in here :V
-
@ Naito: As you created it, maybe you could change the thread name a bit to represent what we're actually doing in here :V
Alright, done. Title sounds alot catchier now. :V I also added a notice regarding the large subject slip from the first post to yours and onwards.
-
Great, thanks :V
Anyway, I would like to continue the theory, but I don't really know which points we still left blank. We covered the existence of PNP, its effect on youkai and the following evolution, the effects on the bodies of players and bosses, its use in the battles, how it is stored in bodies, in which form it exists in Gensokyo and where it can be found, how it regulates the food chain. Sounds almost complete if you ask me. Anything I missed?
-
Well, we haven't exactly discussed what would happen to a human if they consumed to much of the drug. Youkai turn into monsters, but we haven't really figured out what happens with humans. Do they go super buff like Cho Marisa? *shudders* No, I don't really like the idea of that..... Do they change into youkai?
Yes....yes.....the points might explain how Alice became a youkai in the first place...... If we assume PNP turn humans eventualy into youkai, it might explain how Alice became a youkai. The requirements of becoming a youkai magician is to learn to abandon all forms of food and other nourishment. Perhaps it is replaced with the need for PNP? Or maybe the absence of a need for food is a product of prolonged PNP absorption? That may be true.
Marisa was raised by a human family, and had thus no family members who could guide her in her study of magic....or provide her with PNP to quicken her growth.
Alice, meanwhile, was raised in Makai (presumably by Shinki), and obviously got pampered in her magic development by being provided with huge amounts of PNP delivered by her caretakers. This made her become a youkai mage quickly.
Marisa is forced to take matters in her own hands and collect enough PNP by herself to reach a prolonged life span. This may also be the reason sge uses the mushrooms: She hopes it quickens the 'youkaification' proces.
If a human consumes enough PNP, they would become youkai. But the dangers lie far greater with humans. Perhaps like normal drugs, an overdose or improper use might result in death for a human, while a youkai would instead transform into a monstrous mockery of itself. That's why humans don't like magicians much, and usualy have no interest in becoming one: They are juggling with their own lives. Even then, overdoses for humans might also be able to cause slight mutations. I imagine Sakuya to sprout bladed spider limbs from her back if she would ever overdose. These horrific changes could be deadly in and of itself, for humans have less stamina than youkai, and would have a harder time surviving the change.
And we also have another poit: Can a youkai change back after transforming from overdose?
Well, since youkai release PNP when defeated, one might be able to change a transformed youkai back by beating them up, releasing the PNP. But the risk is that the rain of PNP that would result of the youlai's defeat could turn youkai in the vicinity into beasts if they're not careful.
Either that, or they need to keep strolling along the Bishoujo Line before they become their cutesy selves again.
This also takes into question if one is still sentient while one is transformed. Or are they completely mindless in that state, hunting friend and foe for more PNP?
Well, do you think we have missed anything else Sakana? What about you, Mew77? Perhaps we can still think something up.
-
Hey, that were some more nice points you made there. Good work!
Yes, we should look more at the effects on humans. THere is still a lot of work to do :V
And now, let me contribute once again:
Perhaps like normal drugs, an overdose or improper use might result in death for a human, while a youkai would instead transform into a monstrous mockery of itself. That's why humans don't like magicians much, and usualy have no interest in becoming one: They are juggling with their own lives.
That was my thought as well, and it makes it easy to cover some more residents of Gensokyo.
Because there has been one person who has succesfully altered PNP so as to prevent death on overdose as well as transformation: Eirin!
I think we should assume that what she calls the Hourai Elixir is in fact a stronger or concentrated version of PNP that was rid of the death- and mutation-effects (though not completely, as Mokou's phoenix shows).
Or maybe it would be possible that it makes an individual skip those steps and raises it to the highest thinkable form: an immortal bishoujo!
In that case we would have to speculate wether only humans can reach that immortal form or wether a youkai would also reach it if she consumes even more PNP after turning from monster to bishoujo.
In fact, maybe a youkai bishoujo overdosing PNP once again will the turn into what we know as a god.
Imagine it like this: A little snake comes into contact with PNP and turns into a snake youkai (I think you can guess where I'm going). It then actively hunts for PNP until it reaches human-youkai form, that of a girl with maybe snake eyes or a snake tail. Upon further consumption of PNP by hunting fairies she then turns into a giant snake monster. In that state it is crucial for her not to make too much of a ruckus, because if she were to be attacked (by a certain shrine maiden for example) she would revert to her previous form. By staying in hiding and hunting more, maybe even fellow youkai, she then gains enough PNP to overdose and turn into bishoujo form. That still not being enough, driven by addiction and thirst for power, she hunts down other strong beings (probaby fellow youkai bishoujo) that have a high concentration of PNP. Finally she overdoses once again and turns into a snake godess, known by the name of Kanako.
It might be that there is a chance that instead of becoming a godess a youkai might also die from the overdose, just like a human.
Also it should be noted that there are many weak gods (like the Aki sisters), so I'm not entirely sure how they would come into existance, because they are certainly not strong enough to take the same path as Kanako or Suwako did.
I think that maybe the amount of PNP needed for overdosing might be proportional to the body size of an individual. Therefore it is much easier for smaller beings or objects to become youkai, but at the same time they are a lot weaker, because they gain less of PNP's power-enhancing effect. That might explain things why things like mouse-, bird- or bug-youkai are usually weak stage 1 or 2 bosses. That could even explain the Akis. If we suppose that they evolved out of inanimate objects, namely grapes and yams, then it makes sense. They could easily become gods (though it is funny to imagine them in monster-form) with a small amount of PNP, but they stay weak despite that.
-
I'm sorry Sanaka, but this new contribution to our theories contains some holes.
That was my thought as well, and it makes it easy to cover some more residents of Gensokyo.
Because there has been one person who has succesfully altered PNP so as to prevent death on overdose as well as transformation: Eirin!
I think we should assume that what she calls the Hourai Elixir is in fact a stronger or concentrated version of PNP that was rid of the death- and mutation-effects (though not completely, as Mokou's phoenix shows).
Or maybe it would be possible that it makes an individual skip those steps and raises it to the highest thinkable form: an immortal bishoujo!
*CAUTION! WALL OF TEXT APPROACHING! CAUTION!*
This highly possible. But there is one minor error in this: PNP didn't exist back then. We have already concluded that PNP came into existence with the creation of Gensokyo and the decline of magic. Back then magic was still everywhere. But Eirin could have achieved the same goal by creating the Hourai Elixer from an extreme amount of pure magical energy, collected over a long time. This makes a human completely skip the youkai and monster stages, and indeed reach the immoratal bishoujo stage (I mean LOOK at Kaguya and Mokou! They have to be two of the most ungodly beautiful characters in the series! Especially their long, silky hair). This might even come back in production errors: Mokou and Kaguya were originally planned to appear in the fighting games, but were scrapped because they were TOO overpowered and broken! This overpoweredness might be because they have reached a stage far beyond most of the other characters!
And indeed, Mokou has retained a small percent of the monster stage, in the form of her phoenix features. That may be because Mokou stole her Hourai Elixer from a normal person, while Kaguya got hers from the nigh omniscient Eirin. Thus, the one Mokou got might have been flawed, and didn't remove the monster stage completely.
And think about this: The Lunarians are highly developed humans. You can see where I am going with this. The Lunarians are the stage between Monster human and Immortal Bishoujo! And that can be seen in their power: The Watatsuki's curbstomped the Touhou gals, and Eirin has been implied to be more powerful than that! They may be powerful though, they aren't completely immortal. Eirin has existed for eons, maybe even millenia! And yet she's till at Lunarian stage. I presume reaching Immortal stage takes loads of magic/PNP. This may also explain why Eirin and the Watasuki's are stronger (in fire power) than Mokou and Kaguya. They have been training and developing for thousands of years, while Kaguya and Mokou skipt it all in favor of immediatly becoming immortal. Kaguya was a young Lunarian, and had thus not much fighting experience, and Mokou was a mere human. Tough they may catch up eventually, this short cut has still stunted their power growth. I presume their is still a true godlike stage beyond immortality.
Regarding Kanako having developed from a normal snake and youkai, I highly doubt that. The youkai develope from magic/PNP, while the gods develope from faith. I assume that gods and youkai are two seperate types of being, who mostly follow the same route, but with different measures. They aparently do share the same starting route, from monster to loli to mature (the serpentine curse gods got owned by our resident frog loli, while she in turn got bested by our local mature snake beauty). I'm not sure if they go monstrous again. The gods look more like they're in control than the youkai. Perhaps, while youkai go the risk that they go feral from overdosing, gods run the risk that man lose faith in them and they dissapear, but they remain mostly calculated throughout. The gods probably go Eldtrich Abomination (faith from a large country) after mature, before going to magnifecent light being (faith from a large number of countries) and finishing at omnipresent entity (faith from all over the world/many worlds).
-
Continuing from last post, since it started to get a bit big :V
This would explain why Minoriko, Aki and Hina are so weak. In the god evolutionairy line, they are still are low level loli goddesses. Tough Suwako is a loli too, she is more powerful because she has a more vital 'position'. She's the Goddess of Earth! Minoriko is a goddess of harvest, Hina of curses and Aki of leaf coloring for fudge's sake. They are obviously far less powerful, being able to be defeated by Team 9. If they managed to develope, they would obtain greater 'titles'. Aki would probably become the Goddess of the Autumn season if she reached mature stage.
This brings an frightening question up: If the Gods become more powerful by faith......how powerful would the Hebrew God be, the God who has THREE religions devoted to Him, and the one God who is believed by many to be actually real! No wonder Kanako and Suwako ran away to Gensokyo....
But we have one goddess who doesn't seem to be bound by faith: (the Magnifecent) Shinki. My guess she's what is at the end of the Bishoujo Line of youkai: A perfect, divine being, who can create it's own worlds! She probably evolved from a bat or something, following the line you described in your post! From this, we can conclude that both gods and youkai have one end goal, the one and the same final stage, a world creating God. They just use different ways to reach the ultimate states. The youkai through the addictive and volatile PNP magic, and the gods through the risky but more controlable faith.
Celestials follow these routes too. Celestials jump all the way to final stage by reaching spiritual enlightment, which isn't an easy task (Tenshi isn't allpowerful because she just hitchhiked with her familiy to Celestialhood, probably limiting her potential power). You can either reach spiritual enlightment through the meditation way, or through a large number of re?ncarnations (remember, they follow buddism in Touhou). It is possible for a spirit/soul to fall out of the re?ncarnation cycle and becoming a ghost, at which point they can either choose the god route or youkai route to reach ascension. Some doujins state Mima as the new goddess of the Hakurei Shrine, so perhaps a spirit who many have faith in might follow the god path. Perhaps all gods are ghost's who took the job of god when people started to pray to higher powers.
From this I can expect that Marisa will undoubtly go for the youkai route, and Reimu upon death for the god route (I think she's enough of a badass to keep on fighting). Sanae is a mixed case. She's a demi god, and her behavior might suggest she could go either way.
-
Whoah..when I suggested us make the guide book I didn't expect so much..it's beautiful.
However a few points.
We've covered almost everything that I can safely say this is a complete theory.
However your last couple points about gods is a little hard to follow.
I do not feel gods have an evolutionary line. They are created as gods, and their power is either from their inate magic or developed. Actually I always figured AKi was goddess of autumn. The growth of a diety is directly based on faith as you said, hence the plot of MoF. The Moriya shrine was moved to Gensokyo, I believe due to the continuing rise of the hebrew god. As you said, He has three religions dedicated to Him. Simply stated, all the faith in Earth is hoarded by other religions so certian gods had to move to Gensokyo.
I do not see how the evolution of dieties is related to the PNP thory though.
In conclusion, the PNP thoery is complete and we can move on to what I think the discussion has changed to.
Youkai and Diety Evolution
-
well. at least i can say what kind of drugs are used in Gensokyo.
-Alcohol. In parties and ceremonies,alcohol is represented for all the sake and other beverages who appear in the Touhou-Land.
-Opium.Is mencioned for ZUN in the CD story of Dolls in Pseudo Paradise, Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17: "Opium smoke lingers over the town in a cloud, packing its way into every nook and cranny. I'm in the foreign concession. The people dance a waltz in clothes of the most brilliant colours. Your magic won't reach me here."
-Magic Mushrooms.all kinds of them. i don?t know where, but in some part say who Marisa have flourishing green mushrooms next to her home.This kind of mushroom really exists.is named tsukiyotake, one of the more poisonous shrooms of Japan...and Marisa likes collect all kind of mushrooms for her experiments,like a good witch who she is o_n...another hints appears in CoLA, where Marisa, when no have something for change to Kourin, give him mushrooms..."At that time, I saw a fairy sitting on some huge mushrooms. This type of mushroom makes people feel more cheerful, so I'll take some to recover fatigue. He?s always being anti-social and listless, so maybe I should give to him as a gift...The forest's mushrooms grow in a blink, and they always grow in different places. They practically pop out of nowhere and vanish just as fast. The forest is growing, and it?s always changing. But there are things that change even faster than the forest. Like humans. It?s really humans that pop out of nowhere and vanish just as fast." (she was in trip? XD)...probably, another magic mushroom, who is poisonous, but when you dried it for some months can be eated (and enjoy the view XD) or dried even more and turn into a inoffensive comestible kinoko: the benintenkudake, Amanita Muscaria. And this mushroom produce synesthesic effects about the size of the eater and the things who observe, are seen more big or little. (sound familiar to something?) and brings sometimes vigor and make laugh...and hallucinations, too XD. For this, the Forest of Magic is called like that!
"Marisa handed out her hat to me, while wiping her body. It was full of mushrooms inside.Are you telling me to eat these suspicious things? Well, if they are yours then I think it?s fine??
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/Heiwa_album/psichodeliciousze.png)
and we have Coca-Cola, who contain caffeine;tea, who have a bit of caffeine too;and tobacco, who have nicotine. and maybe chocolate,who have theobromine.
-
I like where this is going, but just keep in mind that with the way the border works, all this theorizing might just eliminate any chance of it actually happening in Gensokyo.
Particularly once it starts to make sense.
-
I'm sorry Sanaka, but this new contribution to our theories contains some holes.
*CAUTION! WALL OF TEXT APPROACHING! CAUTION!*
This highly possible. But there is one minor error in this: PNP didn't exist back then. We have already concluded that PNP came into existence with the creation of Gensokyo and the decline of magic.
Ah, you're right. Thanks for correcting that. I already feared there might be some inconsistencies, but it was too late at night for me to think clearly about it :V
I agree with your conclusions on that matter.
Just correct me whenever I make mistakes, as long as it nurtures the theory in the end, it's fine :V
Yes, Hourai Elixir might then rather be an unvoluntary predecessor to PNP, or another substance with similar effects, but it is something different to the modern form of the drug.
Though I might still want to specualte that Eirin might be working on creating another Elixir, using PNP this time, but that is just how I see her character.
As for the matter of gods, I see we still have some discussion to do, so let's cover that next. They're indeed difficult to put into the theory.
But I don't think we should put them as a theory on their own yet, or at least we should always keep PNP in the back of our minds as a crucial part of the world. Or rather, it seems like we have to look which other factors besides PNP cause evolution.
I'm gonna throw in some more points to argue about.
Naito, just for the record, could you state once again how exactly you see the evolution line of gods? From which point on are they gods, or are they born as one, like Mew said?
And do we make a fundamental difference between gods evolved from humans and gods evolved from youkai, or is Shinki just an ultra special case?
And if we make that difference, how would animal gods (Kanako, Suwako) come into existance? Were they once humans?
You said that the titles tell about the strength, but 'frog godess' doesn't really sound too strong, while 'curse godess' does. Thought on the other hand, it might just be the thousands of years of experience that have made Suwako strong.
I could agree with both theories, though I like the thought of evolution more.
Another way would be the following, though it's far from perfect:
We could combine both parts, and maybe even parts of my theory, I think, if we assume that it is normally impossible to become a god in one life, but that it is only possible by reincarnation after dieing with a large amount of accumulated PNP.
That would mean that a youkai bishoujo (which has already overdoses on PNP) that dies has the chance to be reborn a weak god. That way it would cover both the 'evolution' aspect, and the 'being created as a god'.
Naito already implied that Reimu might go for god route 'after death', so death seems to play a role there.
Which would by the way also mean that we have to cover after-life sooner or later.
Leaving alone the evolution/creation aspect, let me look more into the nature of faith.
I can't shake the feeling that we could link it to PNP if we try to.
The reason: Even the gods drop PNP in battle, so they do have it in their body. That might either be because they take it before battle to enhance their powers, or because faith has similar effects to PNP and becomes PNP in their bodies.
The second possibilitie would mean that gods have not become independent from PNP, they just developed another way to get it. It is said that when many people hope for something, then miracles can happen. That is the effect of faith. But then, wouldn't faith be something like weak, diffused magic? A kind of magic that everyone has in them, just like there is weak magic in Gensokyo's air, but that nobody can use as it is? If that were the case, then obviously gathering a lot of faith woudl be the same as gathering a smaller amount of magic, or PNP. By concentrating in the gods body, the otherwise weak faith turns into PNP to strengthen the god.
Does that contradict any of our other points up to now?
-
Alright, for everyone's ease I'm going to put the evolutionary processes in a row here. Correct me if you think something isn't correct.
Youkai route: Animal/Object --> Sentient Animal/Object (Genji) --> Loli (Kogasa) --> Mature (Ran) --> Monster (Namazu?) --> Supreme (Yukari?) --> True Divine/Perfection (Shinki).
God route: Human --> Ghost --> (when man is in need for a god) Lesser God (Aki sisters) --> Intermediate God (Suwako) --> Greater God (Kanako) --> True Divine/Perfection (Hebrew God?) (removed Eldtrich stage. Didn't quite fit, and a god's form probably depends on it's believers)
Celestial route: Human --> (either through spiritual enlightment or enough re?ncarnations) Celestial (aka: True Divine) (Tenshi is weakened version of this because she didn't reach enlightment by herself)
Magician route: Human --> Lesser Magician (Marisa) --> Intermidiate Magician (Alice) --> Greater Magician (Byakuren/Lunarians) --> Immortal (Kaguya/Mokou) --> True Divine/Perfection (it's possible to go monstrous between any of these stages)
And Sakana, you're theory about that faith could be an alternative way of obtaining PNP (with faith being less powerful magic that can be turned into PNP) seems quite possible. They, like plants, produce their own nourishment inside their bodies. But if cut off from faith, like cutting off a flower from sunlight, they aren't able to produce PNP/nourishment, and then wither, possibly returning to the re?ncarnation cycle. They are basically more powerful fairies, able to create their own PNP. Also, fairies dissapear if their nature counterpart disappears, and gods disappear when no one believes in them anymore. Otherwise they just regenerate. Gods may be closer related to fairies than we think. Gods aren't hunted as much as them though since gods pose bigger threats to youkai.
I based the 'death is required for godhood' notion on various other stories (not Touhou ones), in which, if someone had many followers and believers in life, they would turn divine upon death, and live of the faith it receives.
Also Sakana, Suwako isn't really a frog goddess, nor is Kanako a snake goddess. They just picked up those traits along the way, and don't have much to do with their actual powers. They just use it as a symbol. Sun God Ra of Egypt had a bird motive, but he wasn't a bird god. Kanako's and Suwako's true 'titles' are respectively 'Goddess of the Wind' and 'Goddess of the Earth'. Those sound far more powerful than 'Curse Goddess'.
-
I love threads like these.
-
Adding in something, sanae called the PnP items flying treasure in UFO, amulets with power and point written on them, so maybe, instead of being a consumable drug, they're more like magical nicotine patches? This means there are other methods of getting some PnP than consumption, maybe wearing them, and the dropping is your WORN pnp, while what you don't lose you've compeltely absorbed, leaving the amulets powerless pieces of (fairy flesh maybe?).
-
Adding in something, sanae called the PnP items flying treasure in UFO, amulets with power and point written on them, so maybe, instead of being a consumable drug, they're more like magical nicotine patches? This means there are other methods of getting some PnP than consumption, maybe wearing them, and the dropping is your WORN pnp, while what you don't lose you've compeltely absorbed, leaving the amulets powerless pieces of (fairy flesh maybe?).
A very good assumption, Toast. But shouldn't the PnP be visible on the character then? Patches on the arms, or amulets on a necklace? Mokou and Suika do sport amulets on their clothing tough. Perhaps they dissapear quickly. But then it wouldn't be much different from absorbtion. But the clothing of certain characters is pretty obstructing, making it hard to apply the PnP easily. Also, the player character clearly loses power when hit, with the released amount of PnP being a part of the total PnP lost that can still be collected. When you recollect the released PnP, it is indeed a smaller percentage than what is completely lost. What is completely lost could indeed have been discarded, since it doen't contain anymore power, like you described. This power may have been sacrificed to take the blow of the attack. On the other hand, it is possible to lose all power when hit enough, so the PnP isn't completely absorbed.
I still think the PnP is absorbed directly into the body, since it would be hard to quickly equip fifty of said patches. In the games themselves, the PnP flies directly to the character at certain times. Either they apply themselves automatically to the skin, or they are absorbed into ones being.
But overall, an interesting notion that can be further looked into upon.
-
Okay, I printed it and read through all of the thread again today. I realized I was already starting to forget some points we discussed at the start, as we have already gotten a good bit of theory down :V
Thanks for the evolution lines, Naito, I really needed those. I was under the false impression that bishoujo state came after monster, now I see it's the other way round. That clears up a lot of things.
Also nice job clearing up the requirements for becoming a god.
Glad you like the faith part. Actually you implied it yourself already when you stated the history of PNP. You said that the world before the barrier was filled with more magic because people were more 'faithful', so we had the connection there already.
I noticed that when reading through again today :V
Also Sakana, Suwako isn't really a frog goddess, nor is Kanako a snake goddess. They just picked up those traits along the way, and don't have much to do with their actual powers. They just use it as a symbol. Sun God Ra of Egypt had a bird motive, but he wasn't a bird god. Kanako's and Suwako's true 'titles' are respectively 'Goddess of the Wind' and 'Goddess of the Earth'. Those sound far more powerful than 'Curse Goddess'.
Accepted. I'll rely on you to correct me on such things if they happen again, because it seems you have memorized more of the details about the characters and also seem to have read the mangas. And I will try to use the wiki when in doubt :V
Adding in something, sanae called the PnP items flying treasure in UFO, amulets with power and point written on them, so maybe, instead of being a consumable drug, they're more like magical nicotine patches? This means there are other methods of getting some PnP than consumption, maybe wearing them, and the dropping is your WORN pnp, while what you don't lose you've compeltely absorbed, leaving the amulets powerless pieces of (fairy flesh maybe?).
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
Now that is interesting, we should look into that. So there might be other forms of PNP, only recently developed (if they appeared only in UFO). But as we have seen, the UFOs itself are also a new development in the creation/gathering of PNP, so other inventions shouldn't come as a surprise.
Accepting that every PNP item even before UFO is a charm will not work for all of our theory I think, but we can't ignore Sanae's words.
My guess would be that the charms are the form in which PNP is given out by the UFOs. So when a UFO absorbs PNP in its role as an artificial fairy, it compresses it and spreads the drug on a paper charm. That might actually also make the drugs effects stronger, as that was the whole reason UFOs were created: to gather PNP more efficiently.
Those charms can then be worn, but we can't completely dismiss the theory that those might be consumed as well!
There are drugs in the real world that are 'printed' on little paper pieces and then consumed together with the paper (or at least dissovled in the mouth), PNP-charms could work the same way.
-
Thanks for the evolution lines, Naito, I really needed those. I was under the false impression that bishoujo state came after monster, now I see it's the other way round. That clears up a lot of things.
Also nice job clearing up the requirements for becoming a god.
Glad you like the faith part. Actually you implied it yourself already when you stated the history of PNP. You said that the world before the barrier was filled with more magic because people were more 'faithful', so we had the connection there already.
I noticed that when reading through again today :V
Accepted. I'll rely on you to correct me on such things if they happen again, because it seems you have memorized more of the details about the characters and also seem to have read the mangas. And I will try to use the wiki when in doubt :V
Well, I did make some slight changes to perfect it a bit more, but nothing too different. These are pretty much the established evolution lines. Perhaps the evolution lines are more likely than we thought. Though a doujin game, the Touhous in Touhoumon do indeed evolve from chibi to bishoujo with enough experience (which could be PNP). I'm glad you appreciate the lines :)
Guess I slightly forgot about the connection I made with faith and magic earlier :-\ Thanks to this, the connection between youkai and gods is slightly greater. :) It also keeps the gods within the PNP subject.
Well, I haven't read the official manga's yet, but I know most of Touhou Wiki by heart (I have a flawless memory regarding such nerdy things :V). I have also read and watched some fan works, plus quite some of the Perfect Memento entries. What also helped is the large character bio page on TV Tropes, seen here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Touhou This might help you to easily study on the characters ;)
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
Now that is interesting, we should look into that. So there might be other forms of PNP, only recently developed (if they appeared only in UFO). But as we have seen, the UFOs itself are also a new development in the creation/gathering of PNP, so other inventions shouldn't come as a surprise.
Accepting that every PNP item even before UFO is a charm will not work for all of our theory I think, but we can't ignore Sanae's words.
My guess would be that the charms are the form in which PNP is given out by the UFOs. So when a UFO absorbs PNP in its role as an artificial fairy, it compresses it and spreads the drug on a paper charm. That might actually also make the drugs effects stronger, as that was the whole reason UFOs were created: to gather PNP more efficiently.
Those charms can then be worn, but we can't completely dismiss the theory that those might be consumed as well!
There are drugs in the real world that are 'printed' on little paper pieces and then consumed together with the paper (or at least dissovled in the mouth), PNP-charms could work the same way.
I actually assumed PNP took the form of amulets all the time ??? As far as I know, ever since the PC-98 games the PNP look like either red or blue blocks with either a P or a kanji on them (probably meaning 'point'). Sanae just put a lampshade on them for some fourth wall breaking humor. From her point of view, the blocks can be described as amulets. After leaving the fairies or UFO's bodies, the PNP materializes as these amulets, and are then open for absorption. I imagine the 'consumption' of PNP is performed by letting them be diractly absorbed into the body. No eating, no applying to skin. Juust collecting to the magic user and return to energy form before they enter the magic users body through the skin and collecting in the hit box. The only exception was in TH10, but that was faith, which obviously comes in smaller amounts, as we've described earlier.
-
Alright, who put the giant 'WALL OF TEXT' sign on the first post?
-
Alright, who put the giant 'WALL OF TEXT' sign on the first post?
Judge Yamaxanadredd, according to the edit note. =V
-
Judge Yamaxanadredd
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6171/iamthelaw.jpg)
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :S Carry on.
-
I actually assumed PNP took the form of amulets all the time ??? As far as I know, ever since the PC-98 games the PNP look like either red or blue blocks with either a P or a kanji on them (probably meaning 'point'). Sanae just put a lampshade on them for some fourth wall breaking humor. From her point of view, the blocks can be described as amulets. After leaving the fairies or UFO's bodies, the PNP materializes as these amulets, and are then open for absorption. I imagine the 'consumption' of PNP is performed by letting them be diractly absorbed into the body. No eating, no applying to skin. Juust collecting to the magic user and return to energy form before they enter the magic users body through the skin and collecting in the hit box. The only exception was in TH10, but that was faith, which obviously comes in smaller amounts, as we've described earlier.
I always assumed as you've said that PNP was absorbed via something similar to osmosis. As for why they are amulets. I just assume that as this is Gensokyo, PNP could be any form that would make no sense in our world, hence little red squares with P written on them. Of course Sanae would have seen it as little squares, because that is what it is. Logically everyone in that world would see PNP as little colored squares that are then magically absorbed.
I think the only thing left to finilize is the role of UFO's. However the artificial fairies idea seems most likely.
My contribution to the UFO theory
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Extra_Story
According to this, only the heroines saw the fragments of the vault as UFO's, everyone else saw the fragments as just flying pieces of wood.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Marisa_B's_Scenario
The soaring vault it seems was launched up by the geysers in SA, the structure seemingly containing magic that could break the seal around byakuren's prison.
This contradicts the artificial faeries theory that was proposed earlier.
We should find an alternative explanation and complete the PNP theory soon.
-
They're flying objects the fairies carry around sometimes.
Bye osmosis theory, bye artificial fairy theory.
-
So the osmosis theory is out the window as well as the artificial faerie theory...
Any other suggestions?
-
I actually assumed PNP took the form of amulets all the time ???
Oh, ok. I was under the impression we were talking about pills or something, as that was what I used when I started the drug-theory.
I don't have a problem with assuming that PNP takes the form of amulets when it's freed, it makes about as much sense as it turning into pills :V
Bye osmosis theory, bye artificial fairy theory.
Damnit, it was such a nice theory.
Hm, it is undeniable that the UFOs collect and concentrate PNP from their surrounding. But as they're parts of the soaring vault, they are from a time when PNP didn't exist. We could work our way around this if we assume that the vault had the ability to absorb magic energy (we can guess that because, as Mew stated, it contains large amounts of magical energy) and that ability is also existant in its parts. The question would be why it had that ability, but let's continue:
As PNP is processed magical energy, then it would make sense that the UFOs would still collect it. Btw, we also forgot that the UFOs not only collect PNP, they also give out life and bomb pieces when they get enough PNP! That reinforces our early theory about how extra lifes and bombs stem from PNP as well!
Also we missed some other parts in the UFO-theory, that might be of importance: There are three small UFOs needed to make a big one, that collects PNP and processes it, appear. The small UFOs don't have the same abilities as the big ones. But when a big UFO is destroyed, as we know, it gives out one or two small UFOs again.
As for why small UFOs are carried around by fairies, maybe that isn't too difficult. Small UFOs don't have any other abilities than flying around looking pretty, they have no PNP-collecting or fighting abilities. So even a fairy can catch them. Now when a fairy carries one of those, the little UFO flies around her head, as we know. As fairies are simple beings, maybe they just find the small UFOs around their head pretty, and that's why they carry them around. (Why do I find that image incredibly cute? XD)
Which leads me to another point closely linked to the original point of the thread: While a fairy has a UFO, it appears very small on her, but when it's freed then it gets about as big as a generic fairy itself. We should assume that upon the death of the carrier fairy the UFO absorbs a small part of the fairy's PNP to make itself grow in size (which would mean it does have some small collecting-ability, contrary to what I stated earlier :V)
Then maybe the other way around, when a fairy catches the UFO, it absorbs that small amount of PNP to make it shrink, which would mean there was some PNP or magic in them from the start (magic would make more sense, as they are parts of the vault). But we could ignore that point because we have never seen a UFO before it was caught by a fairy or a boss, so we don't know what their original size is.
-
Bye osmosis theory, bye artificial fairy theory.
Hey, wait a minute now. Yes, the artificial fairy theory is deader than dead, but the osmosis theory isn't completely dismissed. Just the osmosis that UFO's perform is dismissed. Fairies and magic users could still use absorbtion/osmosis to collect PNP. How do you imagine that fairies and bosses (and obviously the player character) could possibly hold a dozen or more of those things in their hands? They have to be contained in the body. Just because the fairies carry the UFO's/Vault fragments with them doesn't mean they carry the PNP in their hands too. Unless you mean something else with 'osmosis theory'....
Hm, it is undeniable that the UFOs collect and concentrate PNP from their surrounding. But as they're parts of the soaring vault, they are from a time when PNP didn't exist. We could work our way around this if we assume that the vault had the ability to absorb magic energy (we can guess that because, as Mew stated, it contains large amounts of magical energy) and that ability is also existant in its parts. The question would be why it had that ability, but let's continue:
As PNP is processed magical energy, then it would make sense that the UFOs would still collect it. Btw, we also forgot that the UFOs not only collect PNP, they also give out life and bomb pieces when they get enough PNP! That reinforces our early theory about how extra lifes and bombs stem from PNP as well!
Also we missed some other parts in the UFO-theory, that might be of importance: There are three small UFOs needed to make a big one, that collects PNP and processes it, appear. The small UFOs don't have the same abilities as the big ones. But when a big UFO is destroyed, as we know, it gives out one or two small UFOs again.
As for why small UFOs are carried around by fairies, maybe that isn't too difficult. Small UFOs don't have any other abilities than flying around looking pretty, they have no PNP-collecting or fighting abilities. So even a fairy can catch them. Now when a fairy carries one of those, the little UFO flies around her head, as we know. As fairies are simple beings, maybe they just find the small UFOs around their head pretty, and that's why they carry them around. (Why do I find that image incredibly cute? XD)
Which leads me to another point closely linked to the original point of the thread: While a fairy has a UFO, it appears very small on her, but when it's freed then it gets about as big as a generic fairy itself. We should assume that upon the death of the carrier fairy the UFO absorbs a small part of the fairy's PNP to make itself grow in size (which would mean it does have some small collecting-ability, contrary to what I stated earlier :V)
Then maybe the other way around, when a fairy catches the UFO, it absorbs that small amount of PNP to make it shrink, which would mean there was some PNP or magic in them from the start (magic would make more sense, as they are parts of the vault). But we could ignore that point because we have never seen a UFO before it was caught by a fairy or a boss, so we don't know what their original size is.
I think the Soaring Vault (and thus the fragments/UFO's) needs to absorb magic to sustain it's flying ability. Other vehicles need fuel too, right? Also, on the PNP/bombs/lives in UFO's thing, I think the actual atmospere in Gensokyo automatically solidifies large concentrations of magic into PNP. The magic in the fragments are upon release processed into PNP and other items.
Regarding the big UFO's, I think the big UFO's are just clusters of vault fragments. Nue's illusion then makes it look like one big UFO. Perhaps the fragments all possess a certain gravitational effect, in hope of reassembling itself back to it's complete state. This also explains why they cling to fairies: they are orbiting around the fairies, since they possess similiar abilities as them. The fairies, being Gensokyo's batteries, automatically start absorbing magic from the orbiting fragments, making them shrink. Upon defeat of the fairy, the magic she absorbed from the UFO's is released and returned into the fragments, making the UFO's grow again.
About the question why 'three UFO's go in, two come out', I think when Big UFO's/Fragment Clusters are destroyed, a part of the fragments is completely obliterated, while the rest is scattered. Nue's illusion makes it appear like two UFO's are spawned from a big UFO that was originally comprised of three UFO's.
-
I think the Soaring Vault (and thus the fragments/UFO's) needs to absorb magic to sustain it's flying ability. Other vehicles need fuel too, right?
You're right. That is the most logical and easiest explanation.
Also, on the PNP/bombs/lives in UFO's thing, I think the actual atmospere in Gensokyo automatically solidifies large concentrations of magic into PNP. The magic in the fragments are upon release processed into PNP and other items.
Could you explain that a bit more and make some examples please? I'm not sure wether I understand it completely yet.
-
Could you explain that a bit more and make some examples please? I'm not sure wether I understand it completely yet.
Well, like I said, magic is currently in very small amounts, and can only be processed into usable amounts by fairies and F.O.E.'s. When they collect magic, it builds up in their bodies, creating amounts of magic that can be absorbed by magic users, the PNP. But when in the body of a being, it's pure magic. Yet, once released, the magic power solidifies into the PNP amulets. Thus, I assume that once released, concentrations of magic (the PNP) solidify into amulets thanks to the very aura, or atmosphere, of Gensokyo. These solidified forms keep the magic contained within in one place, without it dispercing again. Youkai can then absorb the PNP amulets again, turning it back into magic energy. Youkai are only able to get energy from these larger amounts of magic, unable to process the very thin layer of magic within Gensokyo themselves. It would be quite uncomfortable for fairies if the PNP took solid form inside they're bodies. It would be like an extreme case of constipation.....
This might be the same for the UFO's/fragments. They also absorb magic into large amounts. Once destroyed, these large concentrations of magic also solidify into PNP amulets, just like the fairies.
What I am trying to say is that a force in Gensokyo's air or atmosphere is making these concentrations solidify into PNP for use by larger youkai.
Example: Here we have a fairy. She's happily playing around, while absorbing magic from her surroundings. The magic builds up in her body, making her grow a bit. Along comes a big mean ol' youkai. She sees the fairy is 'ripe' judging from the size of the fairy. The youkai pops the fairy, to collect the PNP inside the it. The concentrated magic within the fairy is released, and because of the mysterious force in Gensokyo, it takes solid form into an PNP amulet. The youkai then arbsorbs the amulet within her body, increasing her strength. The amulet flies foward the youkai's body, and disperses into magic again just before hitting the skin. Said magic then enters the skin and joins the PNP inside the youkai's hit box.
Then the youkai notices a UFO/Vault Fragment.The youkai senses that the fragment is absorbing magic too to fuel itself, even more than the fairy! The youkai takes her chance and wrecks the fragment, releasing the built up magic inside. And once again, the 'Force of Gensokyo' makes the magic solidify into PNP, and once again the youkai throws it down the hatch.
This solidifying of PNP can be compared to certain kinds of molecules. Small amounts are 'gaseous', large amounts are 'solid' outside of bodies. The solid pieces are disolved inside the bodies of youkai, like putting certain kinds of solid substances in water.
I hope this clears it up a bit. If you still can't follow it, I will try to make a clearer example. Perhaps this example is a bit to chaotic....
-
Alright, now I get it. I was confused about the atmosphere part before, but now it's all clear.
Also, your example is rather nice. I like the idea of youkai judging wether a fairy is 'ripe' by their size.
Though I start to feel pity for the fairies, as so many of them are killed just to satisfy other beings need for drugs. I never cared for those little critters much before, shooting them down one after another, but after discussing their tragic fate so much...... (;_;)
-
Also, your example is rather nice. I like the idea of youkai judging wether a fairy is 'ripe' by their size.
Though I start to feel pity for the fairies, as so many of them are killed just to satisfy other beings need for drugs. I never cared for those little critters much before, shooting them down one after another, but after discussing their tragic fate so much...... (;_;)
There, there, Sakana. :-[ They regenerate every time. You don't need to worry about them. They'll be frolicking around again in no time. ;) (Perhaps using the term 'pop' to describe defeating them was a bit too harsh)
-
There, there, Sakana. :-[ They regenerate every time. You don't need to worry about them. They'll be frolicking around again in no time. ;)
Eeehhh.... they regenerate? Well, in that case..... GAHAHAHAHA *goes back to shooting helpless fairies* :V
On Topic: It seems we've gotten to the point where our theory covers pretty much all the important aspects. As for me I don't have any more ideas concerning PNP, and I don't see any open questions left (some details could maybe be flexed out, but no major points).
How do you see it, Naito, Mew?
If we agree that we're good for the moment, I'd happily volunteer to try and write all of the theory up into one article.
-
Didn't part of this theory say that the player characters become more resistant to PNP's power increasing effects over time, to explain the low power increase you get in UFO for each item? But how does that fit with the fact that in EoSD, PCB, and IN, you need 128 power items to reach full power, while in MoF, you need 100, and in SA, you need 80? :V Or that large power items in later games are worth an entire power level, while in early games, they were merely worth ten items? Also, how do you explain the little "options" that appear when you have more power?
Just to give you more to discuss :P
-
Okay, more points to go. Thanks Drake.
I'll take an easy one for now:The options
It's funny we didn't think about those before, because they actually fit in pretty well. We wondered why the player character didn't grow when taking in PNP and exerting power like the bosses do, and we agreed that it could be because they use power to get through the stages and concentrate so they don't grow.
But with the options, we can make it even easier: Once the player has taken in enough PNP they concentrate the power they have gained from it and manifest it outside of their bodies in the form of options. That way the players keep themselves both from growing, and from gathering too much PNP directly in their bodies, which might lead to overdosing and mutation or death. That would also explain why most bosses don't have options (I don't count IN familiars as options): Because they keep all of the power within themselves.
Also, I just realized another thing in PNP: A large concentration of PNP has the ability to attract other PNP. That is why Max Power allows the player to collect all PNP on the screen by crossing the POC.
There are differences between games as we know, but if I'm not mistaken there is a clear trend: First you could only use POC on Max Power, in IN you could use the POC when focused, and in MoF you could use it even without focusing.
There are two ways to interprete this:
1) With their growing experience with the drug, the characters have learned how to concentrate it in their body so that the collection effect is activated even with less taken PNP. But that's boring, so how about...
2) PNP doesn't completely disappear from the body after the fights. Also the characters continue to take it even when there're no incidents because of addiction. That means that after every game, the amount of PNP left in the main characters bodies grows a bit. In IN it had grown enough so that a little concentrating (read: focusing) could activate POC. When the MoF incidents started the characters already had a high enough concentration of PNP in their bodies to activate POC from the start.
That would mean that by the time MoF started the basic amount of PNP that is always in the main characters bodies equals the amount they had when on Max Power in EoSD! Shocking!!!
As for why ReimuB in SA can collect PNP even below the POC, that fits in as well: She uses the power of one who is drugged all the time anyway, namely Suika, and thus amplifies the colecting power of her own PNP.
You can also explain the IN Magic Team's collecting no-focus-collecting ability that way: Marisa is double drugged with shrooms and PNP from the start.
As for the questions of why different amounts of PNP are needed in different games just one thought for now: Do we have to assume that a single PNP always carries the same amount of magic power in every game, or could it not just be different levels of concentration in the PNP in the different games?
-
You know when I suggested we create this guidebook I did not expect such enthusiasm from you guys.
Anyway, just as the PNP theory seemed solid, you guys came up with ways to make it rock solid.
All that's stated seems logicalOkay, more points to go. Thanks Drake.
Also, I just realized another thing in PNP: A large concentration of PNP has the ability to attract other PNP. That is why Max Power allows the player to collect all PNP on the screen by crossing the POC.
There are differences between games as we know, but if I'm not mistaken there is a clear trend: First you could only use POC on Max Power, in IN you could use the POC when focused, and in MoF you could use it even without focusing.
There are two ways to interprete this:
1) With their growing experience with the drug, the characters have learned how to concentrate it in their body so that the collection effect is activated even with less taken PNP. But that's boring, so how about...
2) PNP doesn't completely disappear from the body after the fights. Also the characters continue to take it even when there're no incidents because of addiction. That means that after every game, the amount of PNP left in the main characters bodies grows a bit. In IN it had grown enough so that a little concentrating (read: focusing) could activate POC. When the MoF incidents started the characters already had a high enough concentration of PNP in their bodies to activate POC from the start.
That would mean that by the time MoF started the basic amount of PNP that is always in the main characters bodies equals the amount they had when on Max Power in EoSD! Shocking!!!
As for why ReimuB in SA can collect PNP even below the POC, that fits in as well: She uses the power of one who is drugged all the time anyway, namely Suika, and thus amplifies the colecting power of her own PNP.
You can also explain the IN Magic Team's collecting no-focus-collecting ability that way: Marisa is double drugged with shrooms and PNP from the start.
As for the questions of why different amounts of PNP are needed in different games just one thought for now: Do we have to assume that a single PNP always carries the same amount of magic power in every game, or could it not just be different levels of concentration in the PNP in the different games?
Although I feel that the second theory about POCing really elevates the drug addiction problem through the roof, or in this case the sky. I find it scary that in UFO and SA, the characters are all junkies and constantly high on the stuff. For that reason I support the first theory. Although it is an interesting idea.
Then one last thing...does PNP have any ill effects on the users...I really can't call it a drug addiction anymore because it seems that it doesn't cause dependency or withdrawal symptoms.
Your explanation of ReimuB is good though.
On your last point, Power items seem variable in the games. Point items as well. Just look at the game mechanics, point items can increase in value over the course of a game. I'm too lazy to find out the formulas right now. Power items are consistent within games ,but between games is just as mutable.
-
You know when I suggested we create this guidebook I did not expect such enthusiasm from you guys.
I can show surprising enthusiasm when I find something fun, and that here is such a case.
Now if only I could get the same amount of motivation in real life all the time :V
Then one last thing...does PNP have any ill effects on the users...I really can't call it a drug addiction anymore because it seems that it doesn't cause dependency or withdrawal symptoms.
Good question. We never really thought about withdrawal effects, even though we defined the drug as addictive. Regarding the evolution lines I would say that for beings that evolve on PNP withdrawal would result in returning to their lesser forms. But as to what would happen to humans (or magicians) that is yet open. i would have taken the symptoms of withdrawal that appear in real life too as a basis, but if you have any other ideas, everything is welcome.
-
Perhaps it is not as addictive as we once thought?
Perhaps it gives a magical high, so characters enjoy it ,but it does not cause a true chemical addiction. Think of it like how touhou addiction starts...
You try it then you enjoy it and finally you enjoy it that you send all of your time on it. It is not a true chemical dependency.
PNP addiction is the same.
-
Hm, possible. I would like to wait for Naito's opinion on this and then we can try to make a judgement on the intensity and effects of the addiction.
-
Sure why not...
But keep what I've said in mind
-
Sure why not...
But keep what I've said in mind
I do. And I think we will probably agree on light addiction/ a feeling of being high, as you described it, in the end. As funny as I would find a hard additcion theory, it hardly seems possible. Many characters seem to 'normal' (for the standards of a fantasy world) to be massive drug addicts. I doubt Reimu would go into a spasm if she were not able to fight for a few days (and get PNP in the process), and I also can hardly imagine her hunting fairies like mad because she needs PNP (though the image is amusing).
But I can imagine her being the first to jump into every incident involving youkai or other PNP-consuming beings with the expectation of getting a nice high on all the drugs she's gonna collect.
-
Wow, you guys have been busy while I was gone. All of it is great work tough!
Sakana, your recent contribution is genius. It explains so much! Wonderful answers!
Sorry, Mew77, but I'm with Sakana on notion 2 regarding the POC factor. It also explains how Reimu and Marisa are steadily growing stronger: more PNP is being contained in their bodies. Reimu has recently obtained the power to call upon the gods, and even before that she learned to turn invincible and to fly on her own! They also have more abilities and powers with each following fighting game.
But most importantly, they are able to take on greater adversaries every game! Not counting the PC-98 games, the girls faced a pair of vampires, followed by a ghost, and then a powerful demon. After that they've beaten two immortals, the local equivalents of Charon and Osiris, and FIVE Gods. And recently they've beaten an angel, a walking, talking nuke and a 4000 year old messianic sorceress! As you can clearly see, the girls are being faced with greater threats every time, and yet they act like their current enemies aren't really that much more dangerous than the Big Bads before that. The girls are getting stronger and stronger!
Regarding the effects of the drug and it's addictiveness, I think they aren't really like normal drugs. They don't cause a real high, just slight delusions of grandeur. They resemble steroids more than anything, since they both function to power the person up, not to give them a pleasurable feeling (atleast not directly). Not sure if the PNP itself is biologically addictive, but I can sure bet the power that comes with it defiantly is!(mentally then, not biologically) Especially Marisa shows traits of thirst for power.
Like Sakana stated, youkai return to lesser forms when they withdrawal. But the games have clearly shown signs of withdrawal in the human girls:
Sign One: Reimu's sickenly yellow skin color she has in MoF. Tough seen as a coloring failure by ZUN, it might have more meaning to it. According to the Gensokyo timeline on Touhou Wiki, there is a two year gap between PoFV and MoF. In between this time, without any incidents, Reimu hardly had any possibilities to hunt youkai, and thus gather PNP. In that time, she had a extreme shortage of PNP. Because her body has become addicted to PNP, it started to attain an unhealthy skin color from lack of PNP, resembling going cold turkey in real life.
Sign Two: Sakuya's bust size. Like we have concluded, gathering alot of PNP in a short amount of time let's the body grow. Youkai even go from childlike to mature with enough PNP. Meanwhile Sakuya's cup size differs vastly between games, being flat in 6, 7, 8 and 9, but sporting cleavage in the fighting games. Tough the fans have explained this with the notion that she wears pads, maybe the body growth resulting from PNP consumption is the true culprit. Sakuya may be human, but the PNP could still have some youkai like side effects on humans. Think about it. Before 7.5 came along, she had enough time in 6 and 7 to collect large amounts of PNP, and she uses knifes, not magic bullets, so she doesn't use up even near as much energy as Reimu and Marisa. The PNP started to build up in her body, and as a rather comical side effect, it mainly collected in her breasts. This resulted in her noticeable bust in the fighting games. During the fighting games she got beaten up so hard she lost her PNP making her lose her cup size. During 8, 9 and 10 she had more than enough time again to collect more PNP to build up her bust for 10.5 and 12.3.
Sign Three: Character ageing. Though many years have passed in between the games, ZUN himself stated that Reimu and Marisa are still 16 years old. They should be twenty according to the timeline, yet they are still mid-teens. Perhaps the PNP is having youkai side effects on them too, and it is starting to slow or even stop their ageing?
I can show surprising enthusiasm when I find something fun, and that here is such a case.
Now if only I could get the same amount of motivation in real life all the time :V
Same problem here :V
-
Wow, you guys have been busy while I was gone. All of it is great work tough!
Sakana, your recent contribution is genius. It explains so much! Wonderful answers!
Sorry, Mew77, but I'm with Sakana on notion 2 regarding the POC factor.
Gahahahaha! Thank you, thank you! I'm having a lot of fun with this :V
And looking at all we got until now, we're all working together really nicely.
Nice to see you could even fit the PC-98 games into that, that strengthens our theory a lot. Also good job on figuring out the development of strength in the bosses, I didn't notice that.
As to the drug, thirst for power is what we should go with as a mental effect. It fits well.
And as for the withdrawal effects: :o
You are a genius!
I never would have thought they were to be found in the games themselves. It all makes sense now! And it was thrown right into our faces all the time!
-
Excuse me for sounding newbish, but I can't seem to be able to post an image from my own scanner. In which thread do I need to be to find the solution? The forum rules only have answers for posting images from other sites...
-
If you want to upload it directly from your PC that isn't gonna work as far as I know. You should upload it to an imagehosting site and then you can add it to your post via the link. There's a lot of free sites for that, just google it or look at the links of pictures other people have posted t find a site to use. That (http://imageshack.us/) would be one possibility of many.
-
If you want to upload it directly from your PC that isn't gonna work as far as I know. You should upload it to an imagehosting site and then you can add it to your post via the link. There's a lot of free sites for that, just google it or look at the links of pictures other people have posted t find a site to use. That (http://imageshack.us/) would be one possibility of many.
Do I have to insert the link to the site with the image, or to the image itself? No matter what I insert between [img] I only get the link, never the picture itself :( I've made an account, adjusted the thing, and yet I can't get it to work!
-
[img] http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2729/rumiaevolution.jpg [img]
Enough, I'll just post the link. I'll figure out later how this works....
Pic made by me by the way.
Anyway, I made a drawn out example of the youkai evolution line, with Miss Rumia demonstrating for us. The title was supposed to say 'Youkai Evolution, featuring Rumia' and 'OkashiiNaito' but my scanner cut it off >:(
I'm not even near as good as everybody else on MotK (particulary the image thread) but I hope you like it. I do have improved, if I say so myself. Perhaps some artistic tips might come in handy?
Yes, I do think Rumia was originally a cross. I mean, that pose of her has to imply something.
Also, I would like to say I'm sorry towards everyone who's mental image of Rumia is scarred forever thanks to stage 5......
-
7 and 6 were more scarring, actually.
-
7 and 6 were more scarring, actually.
Aw, fudge, I was afraid people would think that. My lack of drawing skill + oversexualized character design + originally innocents characters + manic grin = creepy as hell
-
Not just sexualized, muscle looking. Try again, with flowing robes or something, maybe more extravagant and shinki looking.
-
Aww, thanks for the advice. Since Shinki herself is stage 7, it would indeed be more fitting if the last stages resembled her style more (like the flowing robes you suggested).
Also, muscle looking? And here I was trying to make her look slim yet voluptuous...must have been seven's pose and six's thighs..... This really is saying something about my artistic skills :(
Perhaps I should try again tomorrow and remove this one eventually, to stop mentally scarring everyone....
-
First off, for inserting images, you have to put a slash before the second 'img', like this: [/img]
Oh, and you'd better use the thumbnail-link if the site you upload to provides one, because I just tried to insert your image here as an example, and it would be way too big to fit into a post. There's also a way to adjust the size of a picture to fit the post, but I don't know how exactly it was done.
If you don't have thumbnail links and don't want to bother resizing, just post the link as you did before.
That much for advice, now for the drawing:
I like your drawing a lot. That's how I imagined the evolution from what you described. :D
Though I agree with Toast on stages 6 and 7. They're looking way too wild and brute, when we said that they should be more like forms of godly beauty and grace.
If you feel like it, I would really like to see evolutions for other characters as well (if you could do a Patchy or Utsuho that would be awesome ;D).
-
First off, for inserting images, you have to put a slash before the second 'img', like this: [/img]
Oh, and you'd better use the thumbnail-link if the site you upload to provides one, because I just tried to insert your image here as an example, and it would be way too big to fit into a post. There's also a way to adjust the size of a picture to fit the post, but I don't know how exactly it was done.
If you don't have thumbnail links and don't want to bother resizing, just post the link as you did before.
That much for advice, now for the drawing:
I like your drawing a lot. That's how I imagined the evolution from what you described. :D
Though I agree with Toast on stages 6 and 7. They're looking way too wild and brute, when we said that they should be more like forms of godly beauty and grace.
If you feel like it, I would really like to see evolutions for other characters as well (if you could do a Patchy or Utsuho that would be awesome ;D).
Alright, I will try inserting the pic that way in my next drawing.
Yeah, when I was thinking up Rumia stage 6, I immediatly thought 'Ex-Rumia', and based stage 7 on Ex-Rumia's aggresiveness. I really should have remembered the beauty and grace part.... :P
I'm currently working on Wriggle tough, and now I'm going to try something more beautiful for the last stages. But Patchy and Okuu are very good suggestions (tough they will be hard to design). I'll try those after I finish Wriggle.
Also, I really appreciate you like my drawing :) I'll try to do even better with this next one!
-
Also, I really appreciate you like my drawing :) I'll try to do even better with this next one!
Keep it up, I look forward to it (and that goes for the people watching this thread as well, I'd say)
Also, I think you draw pretty well already, a lot better than me as least :V
Though I will try to make an own picture soon. All of our discussions have made an image of Reimu stalking fairies in my head that I just have to try and draw :V
-
... on the drawing, although i can't complain. Everyone draws better than I do, therefore i am incapable of criticizing art.
I find that it works, although Kogasa is the youkai we are certain evolved from an object...perhaps she would make a better test subject.
And your explanation of the withdrawal symptoms is as Sakana said: genius.
It seems that by UFO, most symptoms except for the slow aging have been suppressed...although in stage one Reimu does tell nazrin that mouse youkai aren't worth her time. Likely the girls have begun to control their craving more by SA and UFO. I sense reluctance in their dialogue.
-
... on the drawing, although i can't complain. Everyone draws better than I do, therefore i am incapable of criticizing art.
I find that it works, although Kogasa is the youkai we are certain evolved from an object...perhaps she would make a better test subject.
And your explanation of the withdrawal symptoms is as Sakana said: genius.
It seems that by UFO, most symptoms except for the slow aging have been suppressed...although in stage one Reimu does tell nazrin that mouse youkai aren't worth her time. Likely the girls have begun to control their craving more by SA and UFO. I sense reluctance in their dialogue.
You can say whatever you want about the drawing. I know it's full of flaws...
And thanks for the genius part ;)
Regarding the suppresion.... I haven't really noticed it myself yet. But it may be quite possible. Maybe they are starting to realise the risk of PNP consumption. Perhaps something happened before SA and UFO? A dark event regardig PNP the girls don't want to speak about?
-
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6930/wriggleevoltion.jpg)
YES! I finally got it to work! Anyway, here's Wriggle's evolution line, made by me once again.
Hopefully this one won't cause any mind scarring. I tried to make stage 6 and 7 more graceful this time, with stage 6 based on Ex-Wriggle from Touhoumon and stage 7's dress being based on a queen bee, coupled with butterfly wings. I even gave her a crown, beetle shoes and beetle hair ornaments. Stage 5 is obviously based on queens from various bug species, since Wriggle, as manipulator of bugs, is basically a bug queen. I also would like to note that stage 4 doesn't have thunder thighs, just poofy pants! None the less, I still think stage 4 came out best.
If you're having a hard time imagining a monstrous mantis/firefly hybrid turning into a loli, just think of her popping out of a cocoon. Same goes for a grotesque bug queen turning into a young lady. Also, if anyone is wondering why stage 1 and 2 Wriggle don't have any wings, it's because most kinds of female fireflies don't have wings. There are exceptions of course, but I wanted to be biologically correct.
Here's full size by the way: http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6930/wriggleevoltion.jpg
Hope you guys like this one more....
-
I sorta viewed Power items as some kind of life substance. I understand this isn't completely related to the PNP-theory, but this idea isn't really enough to warrant a different thread IMO.
No big wall of text, sorry.
The hitbox is in the center of a character, right? Considering that one loses a life only when their hitbox is hit, you could say bullets are going straight through that character. So imagine Reimu being cut through by a bullet, and her body rips apart. Blood, organs, and Power items fly out.
Or perhaps Power items themselves are some kind of manifestation of the blood and organs.
Either way, now we can see why Power items come out of characters.
And might as well go ahead and speculate that Full Power items are something along the lines of adrenaline?
-
I sorta viewed Power items as some kind of life substance. I understand this isn't completely related to the PNP-theory, but this idea isn't really enough to warrant a different thread IMO.
No big wall of text, sorry.
The hitbox is in the center of a character, right? Considering that one loses a life only when their hitbox is hit, you could say bullets are going straight through that character. So imagine Reimu being cut through by a bullet, and her body rips apart. Blood, organs, and Power items fly out.
Or perhaps Power items themselves are some kind of manifestation of the blood and organs.
Either way, now we can see why Power items come out of characters.
And might as well go ahead and speculate that Full Power items are something along the lines of adrenaline?
But that would also mean the main characters are consuming the blood and organs splurting out the bosses..... And as far as I know, Reimu and Marisa aren't immortal, so how can they pick themselves together with an extra life if they had just been torn apart? I once read in one of the articles on Touhou Wiki that the 'lives' don't represent the main characters life force, but rather their will to go on, so basically when Reimu and Marisa lose all their lives they just collapse on the ground. I doubt much bloodshed is included. Fairies on the other habd are fragile enough to DO burst apart when hit with danmaku, but they regenerate anyway, so it isn't much of a big deal.
-
But that would also mean the main characters are consuming the blood and organs splurting out the bosses..... And as far as I know, Reimu and Marisa aren't immortal, so how can they pick themselves together with an extra life if they had just been torn apart? I once read in one of the articles on Touhou Wiki that the 'lives' don't represent the main characters life force, but rather their will to go on, so basically when Reimu and Marisa lose all their lives they just collapse on the ground.
Hmm, yeah. I didn't take into account the fact that bosses "splurt" stuff too. I guess that's inevitable, considering the idea had little deduction, but was more of just a spurred thought. I don't think I'll bother trying to make this theory complete.
What you said on lives is another good point. Still, it might work nicely with the idea of Full-Power as adrenaline.
-
I figured, since the PNP only grants great power..they finally found out that it wasn't a true addiction just a mental condition and no longer depend on the stuff. The evolution chart seems to make sense. However..it is known that reimu and marisa are the first to investigate new incidents.
-
I figured, since the PNP only grants great power..they finally found out that it wasn't a true addiction just a mental condition and no longer depend on the stuff. The evolution chart seems to make sense. However..it is known that reimu and marisa are the first to investigate new incidents.
The greatest part of PNP's addictiveness is merely mental, like you stated. It is mostly about the want for power. But like I pointed out with my withdrawal signs, there does seem to be a indication of bodily addiction, most prominently with the sign regarding Reimu's unhealthy skin tone. But perhaps that was a one time only thing. Since Reimu and Marisa have been absorbing so much PNP, they are starting to get more youkai like, and are starting to get less physical and mental problems regarding addictiveness. By this time, it is indeed more of a mental condition. They are getting more youkai like, so it is starting to seem more natural, and they can control their want a bit more. Their bodies are addapting.
Yet, maybe this moment of mental peace will be short lived....once they start to turn more and more into youkai (especially if they are close to going monstrous) youkai instincts might kick in, letting their want for PNP shoot through the roof. Their self control would be heavily limited. Not just because of PNP addictiveness, but because of their youkai nature that's starting to develope.
By the way, what do you think of Wriggle's evolution line? Alot better, right?
-
Makes more sense than the rumia evolution line.
As for the future of their condition..we'd have to wait until the next game to be sure
-
First of all: Wriggle <3
It's awesome, Naito! The last two stages are exactly how a supreme/perfection Touhou should be: Cute, smiling and with the power to rip you to shreds.
Have you thought about posting it in the Artworks thread in Fanworks as well? Because it is really good and more people should see it.
Good job on the further explanations you guys granted fo the addiction. Seems all logical to me. It will be really interesting to see if the next Touhou game will break our theory or strengthen it :V
As for the small argument in between about the life force and organs flying around, I think we can explain that one easily:
First of all: Spellcard Rules. No serious physical damage is involved in Danmaku fights.
But we could go another way: I simply assume that besided the shooting abilities, the characters are also capable of defense (and many bosses have indeed shown us examples of that with invincibility phases in the battles). So they probably have some kind of shield active all the time (how about that small spellcircle around them for example?), that can take the lethal force from the bullet. When they get hit the shield absorbs the physical damage, but magical damage is taken. This results in the character being knocked out of their flying and dropping to the ground, losing some PNP in the process. There they use the PNP that has manifested as extra lifes to quickly gain strength again and fly up once more. If they don't have any more ExtraLife-PNP they lose consciousness like Naito said.
The details are open for debate, but that's how I think the basic progress works.
EDIT: I got my little picture done. This is the image I got in my mind when we were talking about how fairies are stalked for PNP :V
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab98/Twilight0402/FairyStalked.jpg)
-
I see reimu doing that kind of thing a lot...
And then the faerie will turn around and see nothing there..confused it will fly away and receive a lethal birthday card right to the neck.
-
That picture is both adorable and freaking hilarious XD
Reimu's psychotic smile is pure gold, and that scene is perfectly imaginable :D I can see her actually doing that XD
And the fairy is very cute ;) Your art isn't that bad at all
The no physical damage part of danmaku is official, no changing that. But that shield part sounds interesting, and explains the runes and glyphs behind the characters. Maybe that's why bossess also take much more hits: it's because of those barriers! Ofcourse, PNP consumption also plays a role in greater stamina, but still, those runes aren't on the player characters, only on bosses. The runes in Mystical Chain also indicated if an enemy was vulnerable or not.
And lots of thanks you like my Wriggle drawing! ;D I should indeed use these models for supreme and perfection.
Perhaps I should start posting things on the fan art section. Not just the evolution lines, also other ideas I've had for a while.
By the way, something just popped into my head: could Touhous be able to shapeshift back to previous forms whenever they wanted? I can imagine it would be handy for some youkai to disguise themselves as their animal forms again, or turn monstrous to look more intimidating, all without sacrificing PNP. Perhaps an ability available to later stages only?
-
Actually, some would, namely ran (kitsune can shapeshift), yukari, chen, and orin. (as far as canon goes, anyways).
-
Actually, some would, namely ran (kitsune can shapeshift), yukari, chen, and orin. (as far as canon goes, anyways).
We actually see Orin doing it, Ran is, like you said, a shapeshifter by nature and Yukari can do anything anyway thanks to her border powers/reality warping. But I'm not sure if Chen can shapeshift. It seems logical to me, since shikigami used to be animals or objects turned into servants, and it would look like a fitting ability for her. But I've seen many comments of Safebooru, Youtube and many other Touhou fansites which state that Chen can't shapeshift, saying that's canon. Now I don't know what to believe anymore....
Nue is also a shapeshifter, atleast, she can 'hide her true form'.
-
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f299/mew777/Noseriously.jpg)
As the diagram shows, the hitbox has been slowly getting larger over time.
In EOSD it was tiny, and only covered about 10% of the character sprite.
But by UFO, it had gotten slightly larger
and now covers nearly 20% of the character sprite.
This stands to confirm Sakana's point about PNP slowly collecting at
the hitbox, and evidence of his it slowly has built up over time.
Also note that reimu (and the others) had signifigantly
more powerful bombs in UFO than in EOSD.
The heroines (funny the word sounds wort of like heroin) could also
initiate a POC at zero power in UFO, while they had to have max power in
EOSD> I remember Sakana theorizing that the amount of PNP the girls had
at zero power in MoF was equal to the amount they had at max power in
EOSD. I now believe that was a gross miscalculation. The true discrepancy
is astounding given this new evidence.
If we consider the bomb in UFO to be twice as powerful as the bomb
in EOSD. (master spark not included)
The hitbox is only a few pixels larger, but it is proportionally larger than
it was in EOSD.
I'd now theorize that the hitbox has doubled in size between EoSD
and UFO.
Comments?
-
Oh god, oh god, OH GOD!
Mew, that was awesome. Another hard proof directly from the games. I wouldn't have dreamed of that!
I don't see any problems with anything you pointed out right now, so I fully approve.
Also for my shield theory: It was mainly intended for the player characters only when bullets could do physical harm, but as that is canonically false, I assume heroines have no defensive abilities. I'll let the 'being knocked down' part and all stand for now.
I'll go with Naito's version of applying the defensive abilities to bosses.
Also: thanks for the comments on my picture. I want to draw more so that I can finally manage a consistent style and quality.
-
Supernatural border in PCB = weaker version of the boss border in every single fight.
-
Could it be possible that they pool up their magic more, which results in their bodies expanding to accommodate?
Because I always thought that the player uses less power because they have to fight longer, and more power means wearing out faster.
So... the pools of magic are the reason...?
-
Supernatural border in PCB = weaker version of the boss border in every single fight.
Hey, you're right. Great job noticing that.
Could it be possible that they pool up their magic more, which results in their bodies expanding to accommodate?
Because I always thought that the player uses less power because they have to fight longer, and more power means wearing out faster.
So... the pools of magic are the reason...?
I'm sorry, but.... did you read past the first post? If not, you should.
Your answer might be valid for the original question of this thread, but we've already gone a lot further than that.
In fact, what you described is more or less the same we have been discussing, or at least pit's part of it.
Only that we took the whole matter to a more, well, 'interesting' level.
-
No, actually, I didn't.
Because I fail.
I'm still adapting to the way ya'll do things here.
My other board is a lot more... FFA on questions.
The simple fact that I fail at life is one you must get used to.
-
It's alright, I didn't mean it in a bad way.
If you've got the time, read this thread, we've made some shocking theories and even got proof from the games :V
Just remember that there are often threads that derail a long way from their original intent (and this one is actually a minor example, as we stayed quite close to the original question), so you should always check what the hell people are doing there at the moment. Don't let thread titles deceive you :V
You'll get used to it soon. I did, despite not having any experience with boards before.
Also: I once again ask wether there are still points do discuss. There were no more comments on the last statements we had, so are we done for now?
Or is it just that busy christmas days have started and you guys want to theorize more once it calms down?
-
Err... Okies! Thanks!
I don't have time to read it all right now, but skimming through the first page or two, I'll have to give it a read later on...
-
Sakana I think this theory is pretty solid as is.
Perhaps we could finish the write up on this theory and then find a new theory to discuss after the christmas season.
The PNP(Power and Point) Theory; Drug Abuse in Gensokyo
(Note this is just a brief summary..a full write up will take place some later date)
(here's a general structure we could use)
Basic Overview
The girls are addicted to PNP, which has since become a prime motivator for investigating incidents.
Origin
Probably with the world, I'm too lazy at the moment to reread the thread to find out exactly what it is. Sakana you could do this part because i honestly don't remember what we decided on for this.
(nevermind found it)
According to Naito, the magic in Gensokyo is declining over time, and the only creature that can still absorb it are faeries. For a youkai to gain power, they have to then kill faeries and take the absorbed magic for themselves. When a faerie is "ripe", the youkai will kill it and the magic energy inside it becomes PNP and is absorbed by the youkai.
Gentlemen, we have discovered an actual food chain in Gensokyo! The fairies and F.O.E.'s are the plants, the lesser youkai (stage 1-3 bosses) are the herbivores and the greater youkai (stage 4-6+X bosses) are carnivores. The player characters are omnivores!
Method of Retrieval
PNP is gathered by just about every living creature that uses magic, which includes faeries, human magicians, youkai magicians, youkai, dieties, and especially shrine maidens. Frankly the only being that doesn't actively gather it is rinnosuke. PNP is absorbed by the characters via magic and the energy is stored as option shots or the hitbox. PNP is released when a faerie is killed. Some beings also have a hard time holding on to it, and release small amounts of it when attacked.
Interestingly PNP attracts more PNP, and as the time flies by, more and more PNP is stored up. This is why in the more recent games the characters can POC without max power. The exact increase is unknown, but according to this diagram: http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f299/mew777/Noseriously.jpg
The increase is likely substantial.
Effects: Grants the user greater power, this power manifests in the form of option shots and can be released in concentrated bursts as bombs. The points grant extra lives as one collects enough of them, but how exactly this works I'm not sure.
Detriments: PNP abusers love the rush of energy the stuff gives them and so find reasons to get more. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, faeries are a plentiful renewable source of PNP. The results aren't hard to predict: http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab98/Twilight0402/FairyStalked.jpg
And this is bound to happen a lot. Just think, why is the red-white miko so eager to investigate new incidents? Faeries tend to collect PNP like it was candy.
Side Effects: Youkai like obtaining this as it seems to be a key part of their evolution. I'll let OkashiNaito explain: http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6930/wriggleevoltion.jpg
Three major side effects noted by Okashi
OkashiNaito: Regarding the effects of the drug and it's addictiveness, I think they aren't really like normal drugs. They don't cause a real high, just slight delusions of grandeur. They resemble steroids more than anything, since they both function to power the person up, not to give them a pleasurable feeling (atleast not directly). Not sure if the PNP itself is biologically addictive, but I can sure bet the power that comes with it defiantly is!(mentally then, not biologically) Especially Marisa shows traits of thirst for power.
Three Signs
Sign One: Reimu's sickenly yellow skin color she has in MoF. Tough seen as a coloring failure by ZUN, it might have more meaning to it. According to the Gensokyo timeline on Touhou Wiki, there is a two year gap between PoFV and MoF. In between this time, without any incidents, Reimu hardly had any possibilities to hunt youkai, and thus gather PNP. In that time, she had a extreme shortage of PNP. Because her body has become addicted to PNP, it started to attain an unhealthy skin color from lack of PNP, resembling going cold turkey in real life.
Sign Two: Sakuya's bust size. Like we have concluded, gathering alot of PNP in a short amount of time let's the body grow. Youkai even go from childlike to mature with enough PNP. Meanwhile Sakuya's cup size differs vastly between games, being flat in 6, 7, 8 and 9, but sporting cleavage in the fighting games. Tough the fans have explained this with the notion that she wears pads, maybe the body growth resulting from PNP consumption is the true culprit. Sakuya may be human, but the PNP could still have some youkai like side effects on humans. Think about it. Before 7.5 came along, she had enough time in 6 and 7 to collect large amounts of PNP, and she uses knifes, not magic bullets, so she doesn't use up even near as much energy as Reimu and Marisa. The PNP started to build up in her body, and as a rather comical side effect, it mainly collected in her breasts. This resulted in her noticeable bust in the fighting games. During the fighting games she got beaten up so hard she lost her PNP making her lose her cup size. During 8, 9 and 10 she had more than enough time again to collect more PNP to build up her bust for 10.5 and 12.3.
Sign Three: Character ageing. Though many years have passed in between the games, ZUN himself stated that Reimu and Marisa are still 16 years old. They should be twenty according to the timeline, yet they are still mid-teens. Perhaps the PNP is having youkai side effects on them too, and it is starting to slow or even stop their ageing?
I'm pretty sure I missed a bunch of things, but this is only a start on the write up to come.
The write up continues...
-
Okay, let's wrap it up for now! Otsukaresama~
So as i see it, Mew, do you wanna do the write-up? You already seem to have ideas on how to do it.
The basic structure looks good to me, you should be able to fit most of our stuff into that categories.
If you want to leave any parts to someone else, just say so (probably that could be the case for the evolution, as that was mostly done by Naito)
And I find it really neat that you seem to plan to use the pictures each one of us contributed. :D
I look forward to seeing the final result.
-
Actually I don't think I can do the write-up alone.
You two will have to help me.
Luckily there's no rush to get it done.
-
Alright, at your service. I'll try to gather what we have, and maybe try to divide it into the categories, over the holidays so we can get to work after christmas.
-
So until then...May drunken game gods haunt your dreams
And this thread has been the best forum discussion I've had in a long time.
-
And again you've been busy while I was gone! Sorry I haven't replied in a while, I was sleeping over at a friend's house.
Good summary mew77, but perhaps there needs to be a bit more explanation regarding the evolution lines. I'd be more than happy to fulfill those parts of the project.
Also, mew, the points regarding the hitbox size increase are brilliant! They really do show that the girls are gathering more and more power.
And indeed mew, it would be best if we split the work up and be assigned with individual parts. I could also make some additional drawings to explain some points. And ocourse I still need to make evolution lines for the magicians, dieties and celestials.
But I'm sorry to tell you guys that starting from this Friday I'll be gone for a week on ski vacation to the Alps. I don't think I'll be able to contribute to the work or post additional ideas in the mean time :'( I hope this doesn't disrupt your ideas :(
-
Hey, enjoy your vacation and ski carefully, Naito :D
We've got all the time of the world, so waiting till you're back won't be a problem. I'm looking forward to more of your drawings, maybe I'll try to make some for other points of the theory myself.
-
Say, Sakana, we may have almost everything, but if over a week (when I come back) we get another idea/supporting argument, do we have to revive this thread? I can imagine that a week of non activity might make this thread dead, and it might annoy the mods if we revive it. But it would too mch of a chore to transfer all our notions to a new thread. What do you think?
Also, you requested I make an evolution line for Patchy and Utsuho, but both are somewhat special cases. Patchy is born an youkai magician, so she already starts out at level 3 (intermediate magician). And I don't really know at which stage Utsuho currently is. She could just be a souped up mature, but maybe, thanks to the three legged crow, she already jumped all the way to supreme. She already looks pretty complex and powerful. I need to know this so I can figure out in which stage I need to draw her current form. It's going to be hard to design an perfection stage for the Touhou girl who already has an dimensional cape, a demon chest eye and huge wings.
-
I think as long as it's still about this theory, more posting after one week of inactivity won't bother anyone.
Especially since we're announcing it like this right now :V
If we were to start something completely different, then a new thread would be better, but it's not needed as long as we aren't completely done here. Rather I think making a new thread for the same stuff would have a better chance of annoying mods.
It's mainly you, Mew and me that use this thread now anyway, though judging from the views quite a few people were watching our progress ;)
Btw, you should save this thread anyway for further work, just hit the 'Print' button near the top of the page and Save the print version you get.
Also, on Patchy and Utsuho, you're right, they're special cases. I just mentioned them because they're my two favourite characters :V
I'll think about how Utsuho could fit into the evolution, but if we don't find a good way, you can drop my request.
-
Well, I'm back from vacation again, but I'm not really sure what to add anymore to this theory. Tough Mew77 did say in the 'If you were a resident of Gensokyo' thread that the evolution lines weren't officialy established yet, I thought I made them pretty clear. I mean, I already did make a simple diagram of them and a few drawings about them, what's still confusing about it?
Tough, on the other hand, the lines may not be so complete after all.... there are some Touhous who pretty much fall outside the lines. Meiling is quite obviously mature, but she's nothing compared to her mistresses, Flandre and Remilia, who are still loli's. What makes them so much more powerful than Meiling at such an early state? Maybe they started out as more powerful beings, but they started out as normal bats, what's weaker than that? Meiling should have started out as a damn twig if she's still so weak at her stage!
(Yes, I know Letty is a stage 1 boss and noticably mature, but it is hinted she isn't using her full power (atleast I heard someone say that), and Meiling is clearly giving the best she got)
Also, how big do fairies grow? We've established they go from doll size to kid size when battling/possessing large amounts of PNP. But what about the legendary Daidarabotchi? A kaiju-sized fairy! Is it possible for a fairy to get that big when they survive long enough? Destroying Daidarabotchi would result in a PNP avalanche! (Hmmm...using Daidarabotchi as the catalyst in a PNP-theory oriented story might be a not so bad idea) Also, tough most fairies shrink back to doll size when they respawn after being destroyed, Cirno and Lily White appear to stay kid sized, even after so many losses. Maybe some fairies are born bigger than others, and are thus (relatively) way stronger and able to process more PNP? This may be the case...
Also, might some residents of Gensokyo abuse these evolutionary lines? I can imagine Sakuya preventing her mistresses from becoming mature by putting holy water in their food or exposing them to sunlight so they lose PNP. Otherwise Sakuya might lose her valuable loli's. Same goes for Ran preventing Chen's evolution. :V
Oh, looks like a managed to add some questions and theories after all :V
-
Welcome back, Naito.
Damn, that's a lot of stuff you got there. So the evolution lines are gonna need some work now?
Let the fun continue, yay~
I myself liked the evolution lines we had established, so I'll stick to them for now.
With that premise, let's see what using it on all your examples would mean.
First of all, Meiling and her mistresses. It could be explained if we assume that the evolution can be controlled and held back with willpower. That means once a being has collected enough PNP to evolve, it can forcefully supress the evolution and instead stay in its momentary form. That would allow that being to become a lot more powerfull than other beings of a higher evolution level. In Remilia's case that would mean that she forcefully supressed her evolution to mature form (for unknown reasons) and stayed in her loli form. But she still continued to gather PNP and therefore power over a time of 500 years. That would easily make her a lot stronger than many other mature or even bishoujo beings.
However being able to control the effects of PNP to that amount would mean she had a ridiculous amount of willpower, and I don't know if we should just accept it as that.
Now let's move on to the fairies.
Actually we could drop Daidarabotchi, as it is supposed to be a youkai, not a fairy, and it's only a legend at that.
But that would be no fun, so how about that: I suppose we might just consider fairies a kind of youkai as well for the moment. Let's say that, when Cirno spoke of the Daidarabotchi, she actually thought of a giant fairy. But noone has ever seen it and everyone besides Cirno didn't seem to have heard about it either.
So my guess is: The legend of Daidarabotchi is a legend among fairies only. It is a legend about a giant fairy that is stronger than anything else. We know that fairies are lowest in Gensokyo's food-chain, but still sentient beings, even if their minds are simple. So once upon a time some fairies might have thought up the legend of a giant fairy whose strength surpasses that of youkai, gods, celestials etc. to distract themselves from the hopelessness and tragedy of their existence.
So in short, Daidarabotchi would be the legend about a super-fairy that can save all fairykind from their misery.
As for how that would relate to PNP, you summed it up already: Avalanche of PNP. It would also suggest that fairies have no evolution, because with that amount of PNP Daidarabotchi would certainly have evolved if it could. Instead, fairies just grow bigger and bigger.
As for different fairy-sizes, I agree with your explanation. Some might just be born bigger. Maybe that could also be considered a kind of mutation. Those special fairies are, as you said, capable of storing more PNP, thus becoming more powerful. They also seem to have better mental capabilities. And as such they are very likely to be regarded as a leader by their smaller fairy companions, which is the case for Cirno iirc. That position of being a rare and superior case amongst her own species might also be the reason why Cirno calls herself 'the strongest'. It is certainly true when you compare her to the rest of her kind.
It is also possible to explain why those special fairies are still weak compared to other beings: Even though they are stronger, they only produce PNP in their own bodies instead of collecting it in other ways. Because hunting for PNP would mean they would have to kill members of their own species. They might still take the PNP from youkai when they manage to beat them in battle though.
I realize that it can be argued that Cirno has been killing other fairies, namely in PoFV. I would simply suppose she was on a especially strong PNP-induced high at that time, which was clouding her perception. That way it can also be explained why she was able to fight on par with characters that are normally a number of times stronger than herself.
As for the abuse of evolution lines, that would relate to the first question again (can someone become stronger without evolving?), so if we can answer that one we might be able to answer this here as well.
Now then, let the criticism start ;D
-
Girls only theory = disgea based nonsense. (in reality, it's "zun prefers lolis")
What you call "the capability to store and expand" in females, breast growth and pregnancy, males are capable of at least one. Breast growth is GROWTH, not being filled up with something. By that logic, men, who can get quite fat, are great at taking in PnP. Pregnancy is a baby growing inside a woman, causing a bulge, pretty much stretching her flesh over 9 months. Men with stomach tumors can survive similar stretches, although the tumor never comes out without surgery.
The body of a man is not that different than that of a woman, especially in loli/shota form where the main difference is reproductive systems. There is nothing suggesting males cannot store pnp. However, there is a huge lack of male youkai in gensyoko - or, to be excact, very few male youkai have challenged our heroines, except for unzan, who, although powerfull enough to stand alone as a stage 2-3 boss, is sadly slaved to that danmaku flinging nun.
This brings me to another point - competitive personalities. The most powerfull characters in the series, including our two heroines on their way to youkaidom and godhood, are competetive jerks who will stop at nothing to get what they want. Rinnosuke, our main example of a free-to-go-about male youkai, is peacefull and mostly aids people - and unzan never fights for himself as well.
Conclusion? Male youkai tend to be far less competitve than female youkai, and therefore don't even bother with the sillyness of PnP. Interestingly, in real world situations, mature, adult males that do not have the emotional developement of a 3 year old are similar to our model of a male youkai, although the worries of economics induce a bit of competition. I can imagine rinnosuke engaging in risky buisiness deals every day - only he has no economical competition. (sadly, mature males are relatively rare in this society)
You can relate: If you entered gensyoko, would you rather kill all of those sentient creatures of sapien or near sapien intelligence, all of them potential friends, and take their power, or would you befriend people, and live a happy life without constant conflict? If you don't have the heart to destroy a possibility for a happy life just so you can boss people around and shoot lasers, you're in the same group as reimu.
Q.E.D: Your old idea: Female youkai are the most powerfull, because storing pnp is their specialty, what, you know, because they have boobs. My new better idea: No matter your gender, your body is just as capable of storing PnP. Thus, only more competetive youkai and humans become powerfull, while the peacefull ones stay weaker out of no want or need for combat.
-
Girls only theory = disgea based nonsense. (in reality, it's "zun prefers lolis")
Conclusion? Male youkai tend to be far less competitve than female youkai, and therefore don't even bother with the sillyness of PnP. Interestingly, in real world situations, mature, adult males that do not have the emotional developement of a 3 year old are similar to our model of a male youkai, although the worries of economics induce a bit of competition. I can imagine rinnosuke engaging in risky buisiness deals every day - only he has no economical competition. (sadly, mature males are relatively rare in this society)
You can relate: If you entered gensyoko, would you rather kill all of those sentient creatures of sapien or near sapien intelligence, all of them potential friends, and take their power, or would you befriend people, and live a happy life without constant conflict? If you don't have the heart to destroy a possibility for a happy life just so you can boss people around and shoot lasers, you're in the same group as reimu.
Q.E.D: Your old idea: Female youkai are the most powerfull, because storing pnp is their specialty, what, you know, because they have boobs. My new better idea: No matter your gender, your body is just as capable of storing PnP. Thus, only more competetive youkai and humans become powerfull, while the peacefull ones stay weaker out of no want or need for combat.
*Bows down head* I'm so sorry :-[
This little notion looked a little edgy to me too when I wrote it down at first, but then I thought, 'aww what the heck' and added it anyway. The way you describe it makes it look a lot worse.... and makes me look like an ignorant jerk. :-[
I really should stop comparing Disgaea and Touhou.....
Tough, I never said that males couldn't store PNP at all, only less efficiently. But you proved it wrong anyway.
Regarding the peacefullness/competiveness factor: Brilliant, sir. Rinnosuke is indeed a good example for this. Not everyone wants to be a destructive being ofcourse...
Tough I thought males could be pretty violent and power hungry if they wanted too....
Also, the relation question: ......is that a trick question? :V (Yes, I'm a horrible, horrible being). But, though I am very power hungry, I guess my heart wouldn't allow me to slay a fairy/youkai when it is standing in front of me, with it's big, loli eyes. Friendship and love is greater than power and wealth.
But overall, an extremely good contribution, Mr. Toast, and thank you.
-
Also, returning to you Sakana, a very well established theory. I asked a similiar question earlier in this thread ('can youkai transform back to previous forms whenever they wanted?'), and this might connect to it. It also makes the evolution lines stay consistent, and saves us from rethinking them. We just need to ask Mew77 what he thinks is wrong with them. Staying at an certain stage (and powering it up far beyond it's normal capabilities) is understandable. One might just prefer one form.
Remilia has already shown to be able to transform all the way back to a normal vampire bat, so this might indicate she's already at a far greater stage, but just stays loli for personal preferences *cough*getting pampered by Sakuya*cough*. Another possibility is that she's currently at a stage she thoroughly dislikes, like the monster stage. Seeing the dark, gory nature of vampires, her monster form probably won't be a pretty sight..... it's obvious she would like to stay at a more comfortable form in that case....
Regarding why fairies don't take PNP from other fairies, I think it would be something akin to cannibalism if fairies hunted each other. Might explain why Cirno hasn't bothered the main heroes for a while: she was recovering/having psychological therapy for her awful deeds she performed in PoFV. And I can indeed imagine the bigger fairies to be leaders.
-
standing in front of me, with it's big, loli eyes
Gah, I can't get that image out of my mind now. It's just too cute~
As for Toast's part: Acknowledged. I didn't really notice when Naito made the comment about storing PNP in breasts and so on before, but yeah, personalities make more sense. Though I wouldn't completely dismiss the theory that women are, physically or mentally, able to better adapt to PNP and its uses. Personality alone wouldn't explain why the number of men is THAT small. Maybe Gensokyo is just more suitable for women because it was created by one (with the creation of the great Hakurei border)?
Naito: You're right, you asked the transformation question before and we just pretty much ignored it then. I have to admit I always just thought of animal-forms and the likes, not of a transformation from mature to loli etc.
I would like to vote for "Remilia has already entered bishoujo stage, but prefers loli-form"-theory then. (If we accept the 'pampered by Sakuya' as well then we just discovered the greatest Charisma Break ever :V)
Though I like the "she hates her monster-form"-theory as well. As we won't be able to prove either one we should just keep both as our official possibilities.
And yay to fairy-theory. The image of Cirno discovering the blood-bath she created after PoFV and despairing about it is an interesting thought. It would also make her a pretty deep charater, eh?
-
Tough Mew77 did say in the 'If you were a resident of Gensokyo' thread that the evolution lines weren't officialy established yet
MY issue wit hthe evolution is that it's not official until we write it all down. The pic explain pretty much everything I need to know about the evolution lines, but it somehow feels less developed than the rest of the theory. It's prabably just me. In the end I was really just joking about your attempt at godhood on that thread.
About the potential holes in the evolution lines
Perhaps it's like pokemon, where one can choose not to evolve to a higher state. Because with all the PNP marisa and Reimu are getting they should have transcended humanness by this point. And as for others, I Also, returning to you Sakana, a very well established theory. I asked a similiar question earlier in this thread ('can youkai transform back to previous forms whenever they wanted?'), and this might connect to it. It also makes the evolution lines stay consistent, and saves us from rethinking them. We just need to ask Mew77 what he thinks is wrong with them. Staying at an certain stage (and powering it up far beyond it's normal capabilities) is understandable. One might just prefer one form.
Remilia has already shown to be able to transform all the way back to a normal vampire bat, so this might indicate she's already at a far greater stage, but just stays loli for personal preferences *cough*getting pampered by Sakuya*cough*. Another possibility is that she's currently at a stage she thoroughly dislikes, like the monster stage. Seeing the dark, gory nature of vampires, her monster form probably won't be a pretty sight..... it's obvious she would like to stay at a more comfortable form in that case....
I do agree about waht you say about Remilia, although I still think it's like pokemon where one can choose not to evolve. As for turning back to previous forms...it doesn't seem as supportable as the rest of the evolution theory.
IN the end, don't take my comment on the If you were a resident thread so seriously. I was mainly pointing out flaws in yoiur bid for godhood. The evolution theory is for the most part sound.
Anything else?
-
Because with all the PNP marisa and Reimu are getting they should have transcended humanness by this point.
Hm, good point. While it may be irrelevant for Reimu as a human without evolution stages, at least as long as she doesn't die and can become a god after that, if I remember correctly Naito set an evolution line for magicians. In that case we would either have to accept the conscious evolution block or we have to modify the magician's evolution line accordingly.
I have to ask though, are there any other examples of characters which should have evolved according to our theories but definitely couldn't have in canon?
Because if there aren't any others (especially on the magician line) then maybe we could use a little trick and explain Marisa's non-evolution with something that is special for her, her shrooms. Or there might be other possible factors that make her different from others, be free to speculate.
My problem with the "evolution-blocking"-theory right now is that it makes the characters far too powerful in the control of PNP-effects. I like what we have established up to now and how it literally controls the flow of events in Gensokyo. Accepting that any individual can consciously supress the strongest effect of PNP, the evolution, would lower its significance fat roo much in my eyes.
-
I understand that concern...but it's the current simplest way to explain why certain humans haven't transecended as well as youkai.
Does it make the character too strong...maybe the evolution is a voluntary process.
Once the creature has enough stored PNP they can choose to undergo an evolution.
Gensokyo has been around since 1884 according to the wiki, so it is possible for characters to develop that sort of control during that time.
-
Well, the Perfect Memento's DID state that to reach a new magician stage, you need to follow a few requirements. The requirement to go from normal human to human magician (lesser magician) is to just learn magic. But for a human to truly become a youkai magician (intermediate magician), is to learn the ability to overcome the need for food. Quite a handy trait if I say so myself, especially for someone like Patchy (who can then concentrate non stop on her studying without any interferences from hunger). But I can imagine that it is pretty hard to abandon the need for food. Marisa and Reimu might also be too attached to food to really give it up.
To ascend to Greater Magician, one needs to learn to ability to stay calm, and never lose your temper (something I can imagine Patchy to have succeeded in long ago, if it weren't for Marisa's and the SDM's aggrivating hijinks). Only this way can a magician become eternally young.
Marisa and Reimu will never succeed in this. Ever. They're just too big hot heads!
Perhaps normal youkai also have these requirments, which might explain why some are still at lower stages while they are so powerful or at such high stages when they are so weak. Perhaps vampires like Remilia and Flandre need to overcome their vampire weaknesses to evolve.
Another possibility is that vampires follow a slightly different path. Instead of going to loli to mature to bishoujo, it is the other way around. When looking at Bram Stoker's Dracula (which pretty much established vampires and didn't contain most of it's weaknesses yet), if Dracula hasn't feasted for some time on blood, he gradually grows older, and thus weaker. When he feeds on blood again, he becomes younger, and much, much stronger. Remilia and Flandre have reached the ultimatum of this: they're children, the epitomes of youth, and thus vampiric power. They already are at Supreme stage, but instead of being bishoujo, they are loli. A far weaker vampire would appear much older, which the weakest probably looking like zombies.
I also want to suggest to remove immortals from the magician's evolutionary line. Eirin and the other Lunarians should have reached absolute immortality long, long ago if it could be reached through evolution. Lunarians are still basically Greater Magicians, and after that, probably with another requirement, comes perfection/divinity. But I think it's better to label immortals as a sub group, only achievable with hourai elixer. It would also explain why Kaguya and Mokou are still weaker than Eirin and other lunarians. We can still assume that hourai elixer is a concotion of magic and PNP, but it provides it's own unique stage, combining traits of Greater Magician and Perfection/Divine stage (and even a bit of monster, considering Mokou's phoenix traits).
Also Yuyuko seems to be a unique case too. She's stuck as a ghost, and can't pass on to a new, reincarnated life, or follow the God evolution line. Though this might be explained by the fact that she's bound to the Saigyou Ayakashi.
-
Ok, so you're saying we might want to look for other requirements for evolution besides gathering a large amount of PNP? That might indeed be the best path. If it goes on like this we might sooner or later be forced to take apart every single game and every single character and look if they fit into the theory.
As for your thoughts concerning vampires: I kinda doubt that, even though loli-form is a representation of youth, this form is really one that gives a vampire any advantages. I would agree completely if she was in the form of a 18-year old girl, which would provide the best mental and physical abilities. But a loli? If that is a vampire's strongest form, then they're a weird species. I think voluntary change into loli-form is more plausible here.
Her appearance might however change when she does/doesn't consume blood, I don't want to deny that possibility.
Man, I seem to have lost my overview over the evolution lines. So immortals were still in there? I thought you had already bashed them out before. I don't mind taking them out, especially seeing as there are only two confirmed immortals. Though they don't necessarily need an own subgroup. They're, as you said, only a mixture of different traits with added immortality. The Elixir boosts its user to a stage somewhere above monster stage, but it doesn't give them the same amount power that a being that reached that stage through normal evolution might have. That the Elixir's effects are so close to those of PNP is a coincidence. It might be that it was made with magical energy in a way that resembles the way fairies process magic in their bodies.
And now Yuyuko. Now we're getting to the stage where we have to look into the nature of Gensokyo's afterlife. Because there is something else about Yuyuko besides her obviously being stuck in ghost form: her human shape. Most ghosts we have seen in Gensokyo have a diffuse form, like a cloud. Now I agree that she is stuck in ghost form because of her sealed body under the Saigyou Ayakashi and it would be possible to say that she has her human shape for the same reason.
However that would make her situation similar to that of Youmu, half of her being a human body, the other half a ghost. But Youmu's ghost-half Myon doesn't have a certain shape, so why would Yuyuko have one? Now, if my memory serves correctly, we have seen Myon taking Youmu's form in the fighting games, so that might be an ability of half-ghosts. So it might be possible to say that Yuyuko's real form is that of a cloud-ghost as well and she uses her power to maintain human shape, possibly by the use of PNP. There might however be other explanations, so speculate away, guys.
-
Ok, so you're saying we might want to look for other requirements for evolution besides gathering a large amount of PNP? That might indeed be the best path. If it goes on like this we might sooner or later be forced to take apart every single game and every single character and look if they fit into the theory.
Hmmmm...yeah, that's going to be a hefty lot of work..... though maybe there aren't many exceptions (hopefully). We already picked apart many points of the games. Otherwise, we're going to get busy.....
Anyway, regarding the evolution requirements, it can be compared to Pokemon. PNP is the experience, and these requirements are evolution items of certain required abilities. I doubt many youkai kinds need these requirements though, only certain kinds, most prominently the magicians.
If we still take the notion that Remi and Flan are surpressing their forms, it could be possible that lack of fresh blood might force them to return to their real forms (much to Remi's distress). I hope this is more the case than the notion they rapidly age and decay when they lose blood *shiver*
And yes, perhaps immortals don't really need their own sub-group. They're just too rare. They're just an amalgation of various stages combined with immortality, like you stated.
Regarding ghosts: I haven't really realised that. Maybe ghost also have their own little evolutionary line. Since most ghost quickly pass on to the afterlife, they aren't capable of collecting much PNP/developing their forms and abilities. Yuyuko however has been a ghost for ages now, unable to pass on. This has allowed her to collect PNP and develope, resulting in her regaining a human shape. Myon, similliary to my original theory of youkai growing when using their full strength, might be able to temporarily take on human shape for a powerful attack. But otherwise, she remains a gaseous entity. Afterall, Youmu's still young, and is most of the time tending the garden and babysitting Yuyuko. Myon's hasen't been able to attain permanent humanoid form yet because she and Youmu haven't collected much PNP yet. Maybe ghost's also have a little evolutionary line, one which resembles those of the fairies more than normal youkai. While fairies grow bigger, ghosts gradually materialize more. Like how fairies could possibly become gigantic, ghosts could possibly regain complete human form. The fact Yuyuko is completely humanoid proves she's powerful. I mean, her spellcards are insane in PCB! And she has her trademark gamebreaker power.
Perhaps I should make another, more updated graph of the evolution lines, maybe a drawing to accompany it.....
-
Hmmmm...yeah, that's going to be a hefty lot of work..... though maybe there aren't many exceptions (hopefully). We already picked apart many points of the games. Otherwise, we're going to get busy.....
I'm not going to force it, but we should tackle any inconsistency that is thrown at us. Like we did in those last posts.
It makes our theory even better than it already is ;D
Also: Good job on the ghost part! Yes, evolution into human shape works out pretty well. And I didn't even realize that Myon's transformation on special attacks relates directly to the start of this theory. Nice work spotting that.
And I am also able to support your comparison of ghosts and fairies: Ghosts drop PNP too. So obviously ghosts have similar abilities of processing magical energy into PNP that fairies have.
And I would also like to note that it might be possible that a ghost that collects PNP doesn't necessarily evolve into human shape. Because there have been other kinds of enemies besides fairies and FOEs, if I remember correctly. Now those could just be sentient objects that might later become youkai, but I think they appear most in stages that can be related to ghosts in some way (I'll have to look at some replays to look if that is correct).
In that case they might also be evolved ghosts. My theory in that case would be that the evolution from a standard ghost depends on what that ghost was before death. While a human or youkai ghost will evolve to humanoid shape, a FOE ghost might become the kind of enemy I mentioned.
It is however possible for at least fairy ghosts to regain their fairy form when infused with power, as it has been shown by Rin in her spellcards in SA.
And on the notion of Yuyuko's power I would also like to mention that she has one of the biggest options in the series, her giant fan. Adds to your points about her strength.
Perhaps I should make another, more updated graph of the evolution lines, maybe a drawing to accompany it.....
Yes, do that, I'm looking forward to it.
Also, I think I might try to write down a version of the 'Daidarabotchi'-legend that I said fairies might have ;)
-
Thanks that you like the ghost contribution :)
Wow, yeah, that giant fan basically IS an option! Wow, my respect for Yuyuko sky rocketed!
And yes, now I realize that ghosts are regular enemies too! Though, if Yuyuko's any indication, they seem to be capable of becoming way stronger than fairies. Though, those 'objects'....what kind of objects really? If it is things like furniture and lanterns, it could just be poltergeists. Though those poltergeists might indeed be evolved ghosts (but not necesserily just FOE ghosts), using an object to boost their power.
I'm still confused however how fairies can have ghosts when they always respawn....perhaps fairies who's facet of nature has been destroyed? Or just evolved ghosts who take the guise of fairies?
Another question: besides FOE's, fairies, UFO's and ghosts, you also have magical runes as enemies, but how do they fit in? They appear to be handmade by the likes of Patchouli and Yukari (Patchy even has living books, but those might just be sentient object youkai), but they also drop PNP. Are they guards made from small amounts of PNP provided by the their creator? Or are they more similliar to our original depictions of UFO's: artificial fairies to collect PNP?
And good idea about the Daidarabotchi legend! Can't wait to read it!
-
I'll have a look at what other enemies there are in the games, if there are any, then we'll see if we have to add some special cases. I think I saw wheel-like things somewhere for example. Poltergeists may be a possibility.
Hm, fairy ghosts are difficult I see. But maybe it's easy if we just take into account that they have only appeared on Rin's spellcards so far. And they only appeared there after the player had shot them themselves (or they were killed by Rin if you didn't shoot). I suppose that between the death and respawn of a fairy it exists in some kind of spirit form. As Rin controls evil spirits she might have just taken those freshly killed fairy spirits and transformed them into vengeful fairy spirits/ghosts by use of her own power. I suppose the grudge the fairies held against the girl who killed them should suffice to make a vengeful spirit appear.
On the subject of runes: I would go with your idea of them being guards made by use of PNP. That is because they only appear when a girl intrudes a certain area, which would be weird for something that deliberately gathers PNP.
-
Hmmmm...yeah, that's going to be a hefty lot of work..... though maybe there aren't many exceptions (hopefully). We already picked apart many points of the games. Otherwise, we're going to get busy.....
If we still take the notion that Remi and Flan are surpressing their forms, it could be possible that lack of fresh blood might force them to return to their real forms (much to Remi's distress). I hope this is more the case than the notion they rapidly age and decay when they lose blood *shiver*
And yes, perhaps immortals don't really need their own sub-group. They're just too rare. They're just an amalgation of various stages combined with immortality, like you stated.
Perhaps I should make another, more updated graph of the evolution lines, maybe a drawing to accompany it.....
Anyway, regarding the evolution requirements, it can be compared to Pokemon. PNP is the experience, and these requirements are evolution items of certain required abilities. I doubt many youkai kinds need these requirements though, only certain kinds, most prominently the magicians.
This is exactly how i envisioned it, but then it is up to the character themselves whether they evolve. Utsuho a.k.a Chernobyl-san already has power she would not really care.
Frankly it seems that most characters don't really care all that much, or Reimu would have ascended by now.
Regarding ghosts: I haven't really realised that. Maybe ghost also have their own little evolutionary line. Since most ghost quickly pass on to the afterlife, they aren't capable of collecting much PNP/developing their forms and abilities. Yuyuko however has been a ghost for ages now, unable to pass on. This has allowed her to collect PNP and develope, resulting in her regaining a human shape. Myon, similliary to my original theory of youkai growing when using their full strength, might be able to temporarily take on human shape for a powerful attack. But otherwise, she remains a gaseous entity. Afterall, Youmu's still young, and is most of the time tending the garden and babysitting Yuyuko. Myon's hasen't been able to attain permanent humanoid form yet because she and Youmu haven't collected much PNP yet. Maybe ghost's also have a little evolutionary line, one which resembles those of the fairies more than normal youkai. While fairies grow bigger, ghosts gradually materialize more. Like how fairies could possibly become gigantic, ghosts could possibly regain complete human form. The fact Yuyuko is completely humanoid proves she's powerful. I mean, her spellcards are insane in PCB! And she has her trademark gamebreaker power.
I agree with that's said about ghosts.. So what I'm getting here is that ghosts usually just pass on, only those that could not such as Yuyuko and Youmu could attain humanshape. Are evolved ghosts more powerful that thier evolved youkai counterparts then. This is what seems to be the case.
I'll have a look at what other enemies there are in the games
There are a great deal.
Other than for game mechanics is there any other reason to have faeries dresses match the item type they drop?
red fairies drop power, blue faeries drop points.
And what are those strange orbs in SA stage 3 anyway.
Not to mention the ubiquitous doom fairy that sometimes appears and bombards you with bullets before the boss fight.
Good discussion so far..
we can make a Gensokyo Handbook still.
And then write don't panic. How else does one beat the games.
The evolution can wait...
It seems rather simple now
what seems more important is taxonomy.
The classification of the enemies in the game as well as a study on the types of danmaku. Not character specific bullets but the general sprite stuff they bombard you with in all the games. Those have never changed.
-
Frankly it seems that most characters don't really care all that much, or Reimu would have ascended by now.
Once again, ingore Reimu as there is no evolution for a human that isn't a magician. She can pretty much take as much PNP as she wants without anything happening to her being a human. I think it was Naito tht said that only after death she might be reborn as a god for example.
But maybe we should wait for Naito's updated evolution lines before we try to get a final decision on the circumstances of evolution. We'll probably be stuck on that for a while ;)
Are evolved ghosts more powerful that thier evolved youkai counterparts then. This is what seems to be the case.
Probably yes. Maybe a ghost that evolves regains the powers it had in its life plus added power from being a ghost.
Not to mention the ubiquitous doom fairy that sometimes appears and bombards you with bullets before the boss fight.
Doom fairies might be explained by the fairy-theories we had before. They are most likely fairies that were born bigger than their companions and could therefore become more powerful. Or they might have started as normal fairies that survived long enough to produce a lot of PNP and grow that way. It might also be possible that one of those fairies happened to pick up some PNP that was dropped in a fight between youkai and not collected by anyone.
The classification of the enemies in the game as well as a study on the types of danmaku. Not character specific bullets but the general sprite stuff they bombard you with in all the games. Those have never changed.
I can see the relevance of enemy classification,as we can link those to PNP fairly easy.
But could you please explain a bit more about the danmaku part? I don't get how they have significance for the theory.
Or did you mean that we establish those classification as something different from the PNP-theory?
-
I feel that what you say about doom faeries is correct..most likely gained power from picking up all the PNP the othrs fail to pick up.
Ah...they are the greedy ones. Doom faeries are then faeries that from birth were the same in every way to the others except they were more greedy. When they could steal PNP or collect more they would. There's a good reason they tend to work alone or in very small groups.
For example in MoF the doom fairy is often on it's own bombarding the player. Other faeries might avoid doom faeries, just like schoolchildren avoid bullies. But then it is implied that the doom faeries is a bully that attacks other faeries to gain PNP.
And there is no conclusive evidence for this unfortunately.
-
Bully fairies? That sounds interesting.
You're right, they appear in smaller groups or alone most of the time, so them being bullies is a possibility. Actually I always pictured all fairies as cute and nice, but why shouldn't there be all kinds of personalities?
There might be some that bully or even kill other fairies, just like you said. I could also imagine some doom fairies staying away from others because they don't want to accidentally hurt them, or some being cast out because their normal fairy companions fear them.
Nice discovery, Mew!
-
Indeed a fine discovery, Mew. And the notion that 'ghost's regain their own power plus the powers of a ghost' is brilliant from both of you.
But, just like Sakana, I'm confused what bullet types have to do with this, Mew. Are you suggesting bullet shape and color is also linked to PNP?
But I'm very busy today, so I don't think I can draw a new, updated graph of the evoltion lines today. Perhaps tomorrow.... Or I could just write the lines like last time, but a drawing might provide better examples (by drawing characters at every stage and classification that fit the bill of said stage, like Marisa at Lesser Magician, Alice/Patchy at Intermediate Magician and Byakuren at Greater Magician).
Bully fairies? That sounds interesting.
You're right, they appear in smaller groups or alone most of the time, so them being bullies is a possibility. Actually I always pictured all fairies as cute and nice, but why shouldn't there be all kinds of personalities?
There might be some that bully or even kill other fairies, just like you said. I could also imagine some doom fairies staying away from others because they don't want to accidentally hurt them, or some being cast out because their normal fairy companions fear them.
Nice discovery, Mew!
Great, now I imagine all kinds of fairies at a playground or kindergarten with them all having their own, adorable, little way to amuse themselves and playing around.
-
long thread is long.
Anyways, my theory.
Shortly before PoFV has begun, Eirin has read about Reimu's past deeds, and learned about a research project led by Yumemi, in the incident that became known as Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream. Eirin then thought that the flower incident that would happen every 60 years would be her chance to perform a similar research, yet remain unsuspected. So, she has poisoned certain subjects with a synthetized substance, in order to gather data of these subjects' biological processes while they're under battle. If Eirin was successful, she would be able to improve her battle-enhancement elixir, and also gain more understanding of the subjects' behavior under stress and pressure, and how their thought processes translate into their magical abilities.
So, after the test subjects have been given special discounts on Eirin's medicines and have consumed them, the test subjects are then exposed to Eirin's pheromones, after the medicine has taken effect. Special care was needed, in order to ensure each subject would behave as planned, due to the fact that the medicine for humans are different than those made for youkai. But the effect was the same: The subjects felt an irresistible urge to serve Eirin and please her, even though Eirin herself wasn't in their minds at the time. As the flower incident was happening, the characters were being defeated, one by one, but the power of the medicine kept them fighting each other, so that when their spiritual strenght waned, they would draw it from the incoming fairies, who exploded with such force, that their nearby colleagues would also die with an equally strong explosion, which also blew away most of the onscreen projectiles. The heroines' desire for victory wasn't only directed to defeating their colleagues, it would also make them draw more spiritual power from the corpses of the fairies and the defeated magical avatars (a.k.a boss summons) of their colleagues. The barrages often became too dense for them to dodge through, so they would scream in silent desperation for Eirin while releasing part of their acquired magical power, in order to keep struggling towards their goal.
Finally, when Reimu became victorious, Eirin greeted her in a cold night; Reimu's muscles were still trembling, tensely, and her mind was in a cloud of confusion for what she has done to her friends, and fairies, and also for the mental ordeal of having to outsmart her defeated opponents, who couldn't stand the overpowering barrages of quickly expanding bullet rings, the increasing amount of orbs that appeared at random places, and the homing bullet rings that took out so much screen space from them.
Reimu was extremely tired, but her willpower allowed her to raise a hand towards Eirin. And, after being pleased by the success of her experiment, Reimu was taken to Eirin's private basement, chained, undressed and raped, by Eirin, who then instilled Reimu with nutrients, for the purpose of nourishing her, so that she could be subjected to Eirin's embryo-fetal growth medicine. After Reimu gave birth to her and Eirin's child, still weak and unable to process much of what was happening to her, Eirin proceeded to inject yet another substance into the child, which overloaded its neural system instantly, killing it.
Feeling that Reimu was getting weaker, and the effect of her drug would wear off soon, Eirin felt satisfied, further motivated to do more similar experiments, and decided to get rid of the baby corpse, by making Reimu eat it.
So, the incident has ended, though Reimu didn't remember much details about it. It looked like a normal incident, to her, and she thought that she was too tired after "solving" it, that she fell asleep. However, occasionally, she would remember about her opponents looking bigger than they really were, and instinctively, as if it were a self-defense mechanism, she would become afraid of trying to relive that experience, a thought that created an unrest, a tension between her mind, and her will.
tl;dr: this is what can come out if we ignore the gameplay-oriented answers :V (shall I stop now, or do you want more of this? ;D )
-
That......was quite disturbing.....to say the least........
Though it does explain why enemies would look bigger, wasn't a great deal of it a bit unneeded/too much information? (I don't see what the baby parts had to do with the results). And does Reimu's mental trauma explain her slightly evil tendencies in later games?
Also, thanks to this, Eirin has become a lot scarier in my eyes....
But your very dark theory has made me realise one little thing: boss summons.
Perhaps the bigger versions of the characters that appear in the 2P shooter games are indeed just larger projections of the real deal that help intimidate the opponent, allowing the original to keep fighting with the incoming enemies. Though it doesn't explain how everyone looks giant in the other games.
I've also realised something else: We actually see someone growing from player size to giant size in one of the games: Mima in SoEL. Before the battle starts she appears in a relatively small size, but once the battle actually begins, she grows to a far larger size, complete with a costume swap. This sghows that one can indeed concentrate herself (and her contained PNP) to be more compact before releasing it fully and become giant and use the PNP for boss functions (huge amount of health, barriers and powerful spellcards).
Back to your theory, shadowbringer, your theory only covers up PoDD and PoFV, not the other games. It's more of a very dark (but cleverly thought out) deconstruction of the Phantasmagoria games than anything. I'm sorry to say it isn't completely relevant to the subject we are currently discussing. Although, it does fit in with the 'Drug Abuse in Gensokyo' subtitle, so maybe it does have some connection.
I am curious though what other kinds of deconstructions you have thought out. It defiantly isn't a bad theory (only a bit dark and NSFW).
-
What the goddamn... o_0
But despite all the disturbing stuff, as Naito stated this theory indeed had some aspects for us to adress by using PNP-theory.
I'm thankful for you giving us some new clues, but no more of that please. It's a bit too freaky.
If you wanna continue that, you might consider making it a real fanfiction for the Fanworks.
Anyway, from what we know I suppose we should treat the situation in the Phantasmagoria-games different from the rest from now on. The basics of PNP-theory should work for those games as well, but some aspects like the boss summons or the exploding fairies are indeed special cases.
Now I don't know anything about PoDD, so my next ideas will be for PoFV.
I agree on projections for the boss summons, and I have a feeling we an explain how those come about. Remember that during the Flower-incident there was a large number of ghosts all over Gensokyo. Maybe it was possible for the characters to use those ghosts as a kind of projection screen while at the same time making them fire bullets. Think about the 'Brocken Spectre' in UNL, which is also a giant projection of something smaller. The effect would be something that will be perceived as a giant version of the character shooting off lots of danmaku. That would mean that the spells in PoFV are substantially different from the Spellcards in other games.
As to how such strong spells are possible, let me take another look at the situation. We concluded that ghosts might have similar abilities to fairies in gathering magic from the air, right? That would mean that both the air of the Netherwolrd and that of Gensokyo are filled with weak magic.
Now what if, when the flower-incident happened, not only the ghosts came from the netherworld, but they also brought its air with them? That might have led to a situation in which the air of Gensokyo would have double the amount of magic, which was probably enough to be taken in directly by the characters. That would explain why we don't see any PNP in PoFV.
By that the exploding fairies can be explained as well: They are filled with more magic than usual, which causes a small magic explosion on their death that cancels out nearby weak magic (read: normal bullets).
So in short: During PoFV the atmosphere oof Gensokyo contained double the amount of magical energy, allowing for the characters to fight differently from how they normally do.
Now the question is: Can similar assumptions be made for PoDD, so that we can cover that too? And are there any inconsistencies with my theory that need to be attended?
-
Off current subject, YOUKAI EVOLUTION LINE EXCEPTION TIME!
Youkai magicians: Are humans imbued with magical powers. Alice herself is strong enough to be an ex boss, and her profile states that she never fights at full power, so she's either naturally powerfull from living in makai her whole life or consumed a load of pnp. Humans can only be in loli form or mature form (no real beast form, but it's disputable), and not because of pnp.
Vampires: Are former humans that died, and are now frozen in a single state of body - they don't age, at all. Regardless, they somehow manage to split themselves into mists and bats. Remi didn't supress her evolution - she didn't have one.
Ghosts: As previous stated, have a completely different evolution, but yuyu is not an example. It should be noted her soul cannot pass because her body is a seal, and unlike other ghosts, most likely did not lose human form at any point. Mima, however, throughout PC98 seems to become more and more human, losing wispy, nondefined features in favor of solid arms....she still needs to work on legs, though.
Gods: Faith is not PnP. Faith sustains the god's existance (more of it leads to a stronger existance in this world, allowing the naturally powerfull being to wield more potential), PnP sustains anyone elses power. Gods are pretty much beings held up on the pedastal of belief, and if it crumbles, they fall and die (fade away). Hence why sanae moved her shrine to gensyoko in the name of gathering faith, and also, see the events of MoF to see how badly gods want faith. Regardless, it seems they are capable of utilizing pnp, and, as we can see few gods are ravaging fairy settlements, probably are not affected the same way as humans.
Half youkai: The most likely departure is natural bodily developement, so loli form can be surpassed simply by growth, and beast form may not quite be 100%. Half youkai: Youmu, rinnosuke, and anyone i've missed. Possibly sakuya (And her 100% natural chest that ZUN has no idea how to draw).
-
You just made some nice summaries there. Though, with the exception of vampires and half-youkai, those are all statements that we already concluded in one way or another. Nevertheless those summaries might come in handy, so thank you, Toast.
Now my comments on those:
Vampires: Somehow we seem to have assumed that 'Vampire' is just a different name for bat youkai. But regarding Remi as a true vampire as we know them indeed solves our problems nicely. Good job.
Ghosts: Okay, so we just take another example here and regard Yuyuko as a special case. No problem I think.
Gods: We had the faith problem earlier and yes, it's not PNP. However faith consists of magical energy the same way PNP does, hence the effects are about the same. So a god can use faith as well as PNP to grow and stay strong. However gathering faith is easier, because it is automatically transmitted to the god that is worshipped so they don't have to go around and collect it like PNP. That doesn't conflict with the Moriya crew's reason to move their shrine, because neither kind of magical energy is available in the outside world.
Half-Youkai: That category can be ignored I think. Youmu is a half-ghost, which makes her substantially different from a half-youkai and Rinnosuke doesn't seem to care about power anyway. So unless I missed a character there seem to be no PNP-consuminf half-youkai around. Though I accept Sakuya might possibly be one, but there are theories that she might be a normal human or even Lunarian as well, so we can't say anything conclusive about her.
-
Indeed wonderful contributions Toast, and Sakana has already shown my thoughts on most of them. I would like to add to Sakana that, though we have established faith as a special form of magic/PNP that comes from the faith of people, unlike youkai it is the Gods very life force. Like Toast said, without it, they'll dissapear (perhaps devolve to ghosts and be forced to return to the re?ncarnation cycle?)
And indeed, as an undead being, Remilia and Flandre won't be able to develope. They're basically frozen in time. I looked at them too much like normal youkai, and started to foolishly ignore the vampire's uniqueness (though they are still stated to be a kind of youkai). But even if they can't evolve, they do appear to be able to shapeshift to various forms, like Toast said, and I can imagine they can still build up power, just without any physical change.
Regarding Sakana's post before this, it is a clever assumption the ghost may be involved, using them as some kind of mirrors to project the 'summon'. But I'm sorry to burst your bubble Sakana, but there are absolutely no ghosts involved in PoDD. Quite the contrary, the plot lies with the appearance of resident science nuts Yumemi and Chiyuri! The only sign of ghosts in the game are as regular enemies, and even then they are accompanied by the likes of Mario power stars and hearts, so they aren't propminent enough. And even without the presence of ghosts, characters are still capable of summon huge versions of themselves on the enemies screen (even bigger than PoFV!). These ones can even be attacked directly and destroyed! Judging from this, I think the girls are just creating and summoning these projections themselves, without any help of the ghosts involved.
The notion of the greater amount of magic in the Phantasmagoria games is a very clever though, and can be entirely possible. It would indeed explain why the characters don't need any PNP during the fights and why fairies are so explosive now. It also explains why all characters, even the player, now have life bars: with enough magic they can now also make barriers/increase their stamina.
-
It also explains why all characters, even the player, now have life bars: with enough magic they can now also make barriers/increase their stamina.
Hey, right, there's that too. Nice.
I don't mind scratching the 'ghost-projection-screen' thing, it's good enough that we can work with the other parts for now.
As for ghosts not working for PoDD, I expected that.
So, what were the circumstances of PoDD? Anything that lets us assume why the characters were able to fight that way there, without having to gather PNP all the time?
-
Hmmmm.....Yumemi and Chiyuri were screwing around in that game, trying to capture a Touhou to prove that
Fairy God Parents magic is real. But they appear to be able to use their own form of magic using gadgets (Yumemi has her mechanical crosses to use spells). Perhaps this artificial magic is leaking out of their weapons and vehicles (their ship), and dispercing into the Gensokyo atmosphere? This would allow the characters to be so powerful without the use of PNP.
-
Holy Snikes to the shadowbringer
Sakana and naito have pretty much covered it all. I don't play PoFV much at all so, I really cannot say, but your explanation of why there is no PNP in those games makes sense.
But, just like Sakana, I'm confused what bullet types have to do with this, Mew. Are you suggesting bullet shape and color is also linked to PNP?
I was interested in bullet shape and size with relation to PNP...Color may be related as well, but classifying enemies takes precedent over my rambling on bullet types.
-
I was interested in bullet shape and size with relation to PNP...Color may be related as well, but classifying enemies takes precedent over my rambling on bullet types.
Ah, ok. Well, I'd say we keep the bullets until the end as bonus work. If there's a way to link their appearance to PNP, that'd be awesome but for now just say they're the characters personal preference.
-
See doesn't that make more sense now.
The categories for enemies I have are
Faeries
within faeries
small faeries
red blue and green
large faeries
doom faeries- can be either large or small
--------------
Strange Orb
MoF kind-the ones in MoF stage 2 and 6
SA kind-the ones in UFo stage 2
---------------
More will come when I have more time to think this through
-
Unprecedented Serious Affair!
Since Mew decided we should look into enemy classification, I payed extra attention when playing UFO just now, and made an interesting and shocking discovery.
There is , if I didn't miss anything, exactly one enemy type besides fairies in UFO: Yin-Yang orbs!
Yes, you read that correctly. Yin-Yang orbs, the exact same ones that Reimu uses as her option, only that they have some small things (maybe amulets?) spinning around them.
Now that would lead us to the question: How do we have to interpret this affair of options appearing as independent enemies?
Right now I have two possible takes on the matter:
1) The orbs are sentient objects, as in the evolution lines. The result of that thinking would be that Reimu's orbs are also objects that she infuses with PNP to make them into options. The original objects would then have to be some simple kind of ball that is available in large numbers, otherwise such an amount of orb-enemies couldn't exist. But then what about the orbs being a sacred object passe down in her family?
2) If we stay with what we concluded before, then options are PNP that has been forced outside of the body and pressed into shape by its user. The same would go for Reimu's orbs, they are a mass of PNP. But if the enemy-orbs are the same, that leads to an interesting result: PNP is capable of gaining a shape by itself under certain circumstances! So the enemy-orbs would have develped out of a mass of PNP that merged together and took a shape that possibly posseses a slight consciousness as well. What would support this is that the orbs tend to release a larger amount of PNP than a fairy upon death. But if 'wild' PNP takes the orb form naturally, wouldn't that mean the shape of options is not completely under the user's control?
Whichever version we choose, it might have quite an impact on some parts of the theory that we discussed before, especially options. Or does any of you have another idea how we can explain this affair?
-
Hmmmmm.....this is indeed a peculiar affair. It's pretty hard to determine which of the possibilities it could be, or a whole different answer entirely.
It could be a sentient object youkai, but who would make a beachball sized yin yang orb? It would make a bitchin' beachball, yes, but their are no beaches at all in Gensokyo. And as far as I know, in Eastern religions, the yin yang orb was only used as a written or drawn symbol, never an actual object (and it would be a rather clumsy ritual/holy object if it was, rolling around all the time). It could be a part of necklace that had a yin yang orb on it. Said yin yang orb became a sentient object youkai and grew in size, or it grew in size from recent fairy hunting. If it is the latter case, it would also explain why it contains so much PNP.
Or it's just a toy ball of Chen a human child with the design of a yin yang that became a sentient youkai.
Another alternative is the notion that it's similliar to the guard runes from Patchy and Yukarin. They are just fabricated sentry units made from PNP to protect their master. Looking at the likes of Ichirin, Shou and Byakuren, all highly religious folks, it wouldn't be farfetched they made them, using the design of a yin yang orb to pose them off as holy objects (since runes are more youkai and wicca like, and thus unholy).
I think it's unlikely though that said orbs are products of PNP combining and becoming sentient. I can imagine it might take some time to form an orb, and PNP is most likely to be absorbed by youkai in the moments it is released from the body. All other times, they are in fairy bodies, quite clearly separating the PNP from other PNP sources, not allowing it to combine. I doubt the PNP would turn into yin yang orbs inside fairy bodies or be excreted in some other way (atleast I hope so for the poor things).
Also, options more often appear as small orbs of light rather than yin yang orbs, so I think that's rather the form options automatically take. Reimu is an exception because her options are artifacts she uses in- and outside of battle. And I think options do allow for some customization (look at Yuyuko's ginormous fan). It's highly possible that options are similliar as the sentry runes, being attack units created with PNP from the user.
Reimu's own orbs do seem to be slightly sentient, since they can be turned into cats according to her profile. But I think they are just magically crafted weapons for the Hakurei line, and not some other kind of being. These things have been around since the creation of Gensokyo, and I guess it is possible they were crafted after Gensokyo's completion, making it possible the orbs are made of PNP. But if they existed before that, they are probably made from pure magic (perhaps explaining why they are so strong and everyone wants them? I can imagine PNP is less effective than pure magic).
-
I accept that the orbs are manifest forms of PNP, but the fabricated sentry units one is less likely. Actually wait...
the yin-yng orbs appeared in SA stage 2 and 3 to shoot stuff at you so it is possible.
Good...
Good...
-
Another alternative is the notion that it's similliar to the guard runes from Patchy and Yukarin. They are just fabricated sentry units made from PNP to protect their master.
the yin-yng orbs appeared in SA stage 2 and 3 to shoot stuff at you so it is possible.
Ah, so the ones in SA are also Yin-Yang orbs. I was hoping for Mew to confirm that, good job. Then I guess we can go with sentries made of PNP there, just as Naito said.
As for why they have the Yin-Yang form, maybe that's just a form that has been established among power-users in Gensokyo as being stylish/ easy to create/ practical or something.
That would mean we have learned one more thing about options from that: They can be sent out to act more or less individually (maybe on a 'program' or something), and function as sentries then. That makes sense, since options main use is to allow someone to shoot more danmaku then you can from only your body alone. Then why not use them to shoot danmaku at a place where you aren't even present. Also, I don't know whom of you mentioned it before, but someone said that the bosses are going on a fairy killing spree while the player flies through the stage. That becomes even more plausible now, because they need to collect a lot of PNP if they can create that many sentries and still want to fight afterwards.
-
That would mean we have learned one more thing about options from that: They can be sent out to act more or less individually (maybe on a 'program' or something), and function as sentries then. That makes sense, since options main use is to allow someone to shoot more danmaku then you can from only your body alone. Then why not use them to shoot danmaku at a place where you aren't even present. Also, I don't know whom of you mentioned it before, but someone said that the bosses are going on a fairy killing spree while the player flies through the stage. That becomes even more plausible now, because they need to collect a lot of PNP if they can create that many sentries and still want to fight afterwards.
That was me who said that, in an explanation of how characters power up and become giant in preperation for battle.
The sentries could indeed be used as some sort of 'scarecrows' to chase away other youkai who might want to scavage PNP released from the greater youkai's killing spree. They also protect the creator youkai from being attacked by stronger youkai, giving the youkai more time to power up before facing the threat. The drawback ofcourse is that those sentries also cost PNP.
-
The drawback ofcourse is that those sentries also cost PNP.
Plus they drop that PNP which can then be used by the attacker to power up. Quite a double edged sword indeed.
-
Are the strange orbs in MoF the same thing as the yin yang orbs?
-
Are the strange orbs in MoF the same thing as the yin yang orbs?
I think any enemy object that isn't a fairy, FOE, UFO or ghost is a magical sentry. These sentries include the runes, the orbs and various other objects. At least, that's what I think.
Also, out of curiosity, do you think this theory will ever make it's way to the Wild Mass Guessing page for Touhou on TV-Tropes?
And sorry I haven't made the evolution lines yet. I've been busy. I'll try and make it this week.
-
No worries Naito. Take your time with the evolution lines, your real life comes first.
I haven't done my fairy-tale either (university got busy + two-week mini-job) (>_<)
About the enemy types, I'd go with your suggestion of 'sentry until proven otherwise'. We should be able to cover most with that and if something really falls out of this frame, we'll deal with it then.
Also, Wild Mass Guessing page? Never seen that yet, but I think our theory might be too awesome for that. ;D
We might destroy people's image of a nice and beautiful Gensokyo. :V
-
Oh, on that page there already are quite some deconstructing theories of Gensokyo :V The only difference is that none them are as big and thought out as ours ;D It is indeed to awesome for it 8) Also, most of them are just small, comical theories meant to joke at the nature of Touhou and Gensokyo.
Here's a link to the Touhou WMG page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/Touhou
-
Okay, just had a quick look. PNP-theory would definitely break the boundaries of that page :V
-
Indeed, the boundary between guessing and truth would be shattered by the effectiveness of this theory.
wait...people had a nice impression of Gensokyo...even with the basic youkai eat humans part...the mental image of a swarm of faeries feeding on a hapless human isn't pretty at all.
For now we take naito's statement that most are just magical sentries.
I think it makes sense because both Kanako and Hina use them extensively.
-
wait...people had a nice impression of Gensokyo...even with the basic youkai eat humans part...the mental image of a swarm of faeries feeding on a hapless human isn't pretty at all.
Oh dear Shinki, now I'm starting to get a Discovery Channel vibe.
'The youkai is gorging on it's human prey. Fairies are gathering, but the youkai chases them off. They are going to have to wait their turn. Scavengers like fairies are fortunately very patient.'
-
Whatever made you think the faeries were scavengers??
And it's animal planet you're thinking of not discovery.
my feeling is that faeries actively attack in swarms when they can..or are domesticated for use by more powerful youkai.
it happens.
-
Eh, fairies feeding on humans? Where did that come from? I consider them magivores (as in, that gathering of magic and processign it into PNP is already their 'feeding')
But as for domestication, that is not only possible but also proven, now that I think about it. Most of the servants at SDM are fairies. So I'd say that fairies usually attack for one of two reasons: They're forced/ ordered to do it, or they fight to defend themselves.
-
So are they forced to dress like cowboys in MoF?
Are they forced to wear the same color as the item they drop when popped?
And faeries eat people because all random youkai eat people. Or at least most, faeries being part of the random youkai group eat people.
-
But fairies are no youkai. At least not as far as we had discussed it here.
I dunno, maybe there might be situations in which fairies might copy a youkai's behaviour and munch on a human (they're simple creatures after all), but I wouldn't want to make it part of their nature.
As for their clothing, we'll have to figure that out later. 'Cause it's 4am and I'm in no shape to think about something that complicated right now :V
-
I double checked the wiki..turns out faeries are their own species..I was wrong.
So then why do large swarms of faeries attack the player all the time..
I don't want to chalk it to just stupidity.
Here this might help us: http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Encyclopedia:_Fairy
-
Hey, thanks for the link Mew.
I should have checked those articles sooner, they might provide some clues.
And you weren't completely off, it says that they are 'a kind of youkai' there. S we might say that they are at least related to youkai, just like cats are related to tigers for example.
"Without thinking of the consequences, they disturb the actions of those in front of their eyes. " might be a direction as for why they attack. Though just that wouldn't justify the barrage of danmaku the players usually encounter.
Plus it's said, that "The truth is that while fairies are reckless, they don't like fighting much at all."
Then again, there is "However, there are also the occasional exceptions where without doing any pranks, they just suddenly attack."
Ah damn, that doesn't solve the problem at all. I have no idea as of yet, other than 'defense' or 'orders', as I stated before.
As for the clothing:
First of all, I will grant the fairies enough intelligence to dress up by themselves. That would be of relevane for cases where the fairies have some clothing that diverts form the usual simple dress (i.e. PoFV stage 9).
I would take fairies as creatures that live in groups. In that case clothes might be a way to distinguish between groups and foster companionship amongst fairies of the same group.
Of course they might also wear certain clothes on the order of a master that domesticated a goup of fairies, like the SDM fairy maids.
That would, btw, bring on the thought if the fairies in PoFV stage 9 copied their style from Shiki, or if not in fact Shiki domesticated them and dressed them herself.
As for the dressing in PNP-colours though, I can't say anything yet. I had some thoughts, but they're yet too confusing to be a theoretical explanation.
-
Whatever made you think the faeries were scavengers??
my feeling is that faeries actively attack in swarms when they can..or are domesticated for use by more powerful youkai.
it happens.
Eh, fairies feeding on humans? Where did that come from? I consider them magivores (as in, that gathering of magic and processign it into PNP is already their 'feeding')
It's called a joke guys. Is the Discovery Animal Planet parody text not a big enough of a hint? Seriously, you didn't have to take it this far.
Fairies don't need to eat (like you said, nourishing on magic), but they sometimes consume food because they're curious and want to mimic humans (how cute)
I think the fairy dresses and costumes are part of their being, and magically appear when they come into existence. They might become more elaborate when they become more powerful (Lily White's dress is far more fancy than those of normal fairies). And ofcourse, they can wear anything that's given to them (even Shikieiki has uniforms for them that's similar to hers). Their PNP production might also influence the color of the dress, since, like I said, they are part of their very being.
I also already explained why fairies attack players at random, which also comes back in the article (yes, I've read it before): They're scared for the youkai (boss) that's currently attacking them for PNP, so they gather and get aggressive to try and fend the youkai off. During the hectics of the battle, they mistake the player character for a predator too, and start attacking them too. The player obviously responds with defending themselves and eliminate the attacking fairies, only to make all the other fairies in the vincinity more pissed off, continueing the attack.
And you weren't completely off, it says that they are 'a kind of youkai' there. S we might say that they are at least related to youkai, just like cats are related to tigers for example.
Nice comparison BTW.
-
It's called a joke guys. Is the Discovery Animal Planet parody text not a big enough of a hint? Seriously, you didn't have to take it this far.
My comment wasn't directed at you, actually. I got the joke, but Mew started on the man-eating fairies one post before that and I didn't know whether that was supposed to be a joke as well. Oh well, nothing serious happened, so whatever.
Fairies don't need to eat (like you said, nourishing on magic), but they sometimes consume food because they're curious and want to mimic humans (how cute)
Actually, I just had the thought that fairies mimicking human eating habits might make them a good target for pranks themselves. Make two portions of food. Put something incredibly sour/ spicy etc. into one portion. Wait for fairies to approach and eat the safe portion of food before their eyes. Let them take the other portion, hide, watch :V
Anyway, back to topic: I agree to your notions on clothing. A being with a living dress sounds weird, but we're talking about Gensokyo here. Only thing that we might have to look into is the reason why some fairies produce slightly different PNP than others.
One of my thoughts was that fairies might have simple social structures (we talked about leadership by bigger fairies before, right?) and that inside of those structures, there might be different roles a fairy might attend to. Maybe which role a fairy has might influence the nature of the PNP it produces.
For example guardian/fighter fairies will process magical energy in a way that makes it easier usable for fighting, which leads to them producing the kind of PNP that has the highest power-boosting abilities, the red PNP. Blue ones on the other hand might be the fairies that take care of the more social matters, like caring for baby fairies (if that exists), nursing hurt fighter fairies etc. They would have to use magical energy differently, resulting in blue PNP. The rest would be the changing of the dress' color according to the type of PNP produced, as Naito said.
And yeah, now that you mention it, you did explain why fairies attack before. It's getting pretty hard to remember everything we had up to now.
One correction though:
they mistake the player character for a predator too
They don't mistake them, they see them for what they are :V
-
Actually, I just had the thought that fairies mimicking human eating habits might make them a good target for pranks themselves. Make two portions of food. Put something incredibly sour/ spicy etc. into one portion. Wait for fairies to approach and eat the safe portion of food before their eyes. Let them take the other portion, hide, watch :V
Oh, your so mean yet so much win :V
Anyway, back to topic: I agree to your notions on clothing. A being with a living dress sounds weird, but we're talking about Gensokyo here. Only thing that we might have to look into is the reason why some fairies produce slightly different PNP than others.
One of my thoughts was that fairies might have simple social structures (we talked about leadership by bigger fairies before, right?) and that inside of those structures, there might be different roles a fairy might attend to. Maybe which role a fairy has might influence the nature of the PNP it produces.
For example guardian/fighter fairies will process magical energy in a way that makes it easier usable for fighting, which leads to them producing the kind of PNP that has the highest power-boosting abilities, the red PNP. Blue ones on the other hand might be the fairies that take care of the more social matters, like caring for baby fairies (if that exists), nursing hurt fighter fairies etc. They would have to use magical energy differently, resulting in blue PNP. The rest would be the changing of the dress' color according to the type of PNP produced, as Naito said.
Hmmm...a delightful notion. Fairies having an insect colony like lifestyle could be very interesting, and explain alot. I'm not sure either if fairies get kids, but I doubt that. I think they probably just poof into existence. But the possibility's still there. Perhaps why there are so many female fairies: like bees, all the workers are female, and a male is only needed to impregnate the 'queen'. After that he'd probably turn into a female fairy or vanish from existence. Though that raises the question if fairies lay eggs..... and if there is indeed a need for a queen, Daiyousei is going to get veeeeery busy.
-
Hm, nice follow up on the fairy social structure there.
I didn't think of insect colonies, but they fit very well. They work for simple creatures and yet provide enough different roles to link those to PNP in some way.
As for fairy-birth, all of your ideas are possible.
Just to mention it, another mindfuck-idea I had for the fairy colours was to suggest that red fairies are female, blue male and green underaged. The colours are needed so that the fairies can reproduce, since there is nothing else to distinguish their sexes and maturity by :V
Though that might have spawned some fun discussion, I rather not wanted any of the fairies to be a male. We're talking about Gensokyo after all.
Which doesn't mean I am against a queen-bee theory. As fairies are magical beings, I don't think the necessity of a male for reproduction needs to be applied.
Though, thinking about it a bit more, if we want to explain things conclusive and in detail, accepting male fairies with the sole purpose of reproducing might be a rather good choice. And actually I can even imagine that PNP might have its uses there as well, by boosting the potency of a male fairy in order to succesfully generate lots of new offspring. Which might then end in the male fairy 'vanishing' from exhaustion.
//offtopic
Oh, your so mean yet so much win :V
Actually that is one of my favourite traits in real life as well. Given there is some good input from someone else I can have pretty nice, and usually mean, ideas (and you've provided a lot of input Naito, see this thread :D).
If I want to be creative on my own, however, well....
And btw, your words of fairies 'poofing into existance' gave me an image of the cutest 'Big Bang' ever :V
-
All this talk of living dresses can has strange side effects...the faeries in MoF stage 3 wear cowboy hats...are we to assume the hats are also living?
In the SDM they have uniforms and in shikeiki's land as well, but
did nitori convince a large swarm of faeries to wer cowboy hats? I wouldn't put it past her, but the faeries in MoF stage 4 do as well.
oh I get it, momiji uses cowboy hats as the youkai mountain defense crops uniform.
I guess...
I think i'm jsut rambling now, so back to you guys
-
Actually, why not? I like the 'Mountain Defense Corps' idea, and it fits into everything else really well.
They are obviously a special group of fairies, seeing as they only appear on two stages. Also, on stage 4, their attacks are a lot more coordinated than those of normal fairies (i.e. when they shoot danmaku to narrow you down to a specific path at two points in the stage). And the timing with which they appear also makes sense. They only appear after the player has succeeded in beating the person who usually is responsible for keeping humans from the mountain, Hina, so at that point there's a real threat to all the creatures on youkai mountain.
So them being a fairy special force (well, rather a militia maybe) that acts to intercept intruders to the mountain would explain their behavior and the uniform hat pretty well.
And since usually the tengu guard the moutain, Momiji and Aya would be their superiors. As Aya is often away that would probably make Momiji the actual commander, so the hats might indeed have been Momiji's idea. Though I wouldn't put it beyond Aya as well, but that's not the point here.
I'd say you made a pretty nice discovery there, Mew.
-
oh I get it, momiji uses cowboy hats as the youkai mountain defense crops uniform.
Aya: 'So, Momiji, what's the deal with the hats?'
Momiji: 'To show that they *puts on sunglasses* mean business.'
YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Now I can't stop imagining Momiji using the fairies as dress up dolls.
Anyway, I wanted to support my 'magic clothes' theory a bit. It really isn't that farfetched really. Because think about it:
Who in their right minds would actually try and make hundreds of thousands of Europian, highly detailed dresses for ALL the wild fairies in Gensokyo who have absolutely no money on them? And since fairies are mostly homeless and the only possesion they carry are the their dresses, I doubt they'll have the resources or skills to make the dresses themselves. Stealing from humans is out too, because the residents of the Human Village mostly wear fuedal style clothing, no Europian clothing. Also, most fairies are either kid or doll sized, and I doubt there are enough kids or dolls in the Human Village to provide so many clothing anyway. Stealing is out of the case too.
Actually, most youkai seem to have pretty fancy clothing too despite living in the wild (with Rumia as prime example). The mansion dwelling youkai have hundreds of dresses ofcourse, but wild youkai don't have anything except for, yes, their clothes. Youkai could possibly also be able to magically create clothing.
Mokou and Kaguya get blown to smithereens every five seconds, yet they regenerate immediatly with no clothing damage. Perhaps even humans/Lunarians can learn to magically generate clothing.
-
Now I can't stop imagining Momiji using the fairies as dress up dolls.
She needs some hobbies as well, doesn't she? I mean, it's not like someone is attacking the mountain every day just so she can do her job :V
Who in their right minds would actually try and make hundreds of thousands of Europian, highly detailed dresses for ALL the wild fairies in Gensokyo who have absolutely no money on them?
Now that you mention it.... (o_0)
I could imagine one single person in Gensokyo making fairy-sized clothes, and that would be Alice. But even she could and would never make some for every fairy, so yeah...
To support you some more, I'd like to mention that we usually see the girl's clothes dirty or torn after a fight. Since we can assume they fight regularily I doubt they always have the ressources to repair their clothes manually (especially, as you said, youkai living in the wild). So the fact that they have clean and undamaged clothes when the players meet them already hints to some magical clothes-recovering ability.
I think your Magic Clothing theory explains the weird ways of dressing in Gensokyo pretty well.
-
since automatic clothing regeneration doesn't exist in our world it must exist in theirs.
Since dresses don't magically appear out of nowhere in our world it might in thiers
it's called Gensokyo logic..whatever can't happen will.
-
Wow, I think Mew's 'Mountain Defense Corps' theory can be supported by the strongest proof, the game itself.
I played it again just now and my eyes caught the names of the stages for the first time.
And well, stages three and four are named 'Flawless Fortress' and 'Mountain Fortress' respectively.
Now a fortress wold be useless without a defense force, right?
Well, and the only thing we can see in the game that resembles a defense force are Momiji and her army of cowboy-hat wearing fairies.
So what Mew said he was just rambling about was in fact the truth, great job! :V
-
Well isn't that interesting...
The stage logos don't pop up long enough for me to read them usually.
-
Well guys, we've also been wrong on the ghosts. Apparently the humanoid ghosts and the gaseous ghosts are entirely different species and not interconnected.
See for yourself:
Phantoms (half of what Youmu is) http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Phantom
Ghosts (Yuyuko) http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Ghost
Even poltergesist are entirely different things http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Poltergeist
So ghosts don't materialize further into humanoid beings when they develope. They are humanoid from the start. They can however, change into Evil Spirits when their bodies are stolen by Kasha (I think Mima is one but I'm not sure. The ghosts faries defiantly are), or change into Yama when they get applied for the job or if they had died near Jizou. And we ofcourse established that Ghosts could turn into Gods when man is in need for a god.
Phantoms are completely different beings who are apparently 'born' instead of being spirits of the dead (most of the time though, there are exceptions, where apparently many can spawn from the same dead person).
Poltergeists are the same, but can materialize in humanoid form by possesing something (the Prismrivers with their instruments), and are often 'created' like the magic sentries (the Prismrivers were created by the fourth sister, Layla).
From this we can assume that (complete) Phantoms are PNP producing while Ghosts are PNP absorbing. Poltergeist may have been created in the same vein as sentries, through PNP, and may be PNP producing themselves.
So now the fairies, phantoms, poltergeists, UFO's and FOE's fall outside the evolutionary lines, being PNP producers. The Ghosts meanwhile have now become part of the evolutionary line, adding Yama's and Evil Spirits to the list. I am already implementing them into my rather simple start of the evolutionary line, which I've started making during and in between classes. I've also connected Vampires and Immortals to humans, with their own unique ways to evolve (vampire bite for Vampires and Hourai Elixir for Immortals), but after that they're pretty much evolutionary dead ends.
I've also discovered from Perfect Memento that youkai don't have ghosts, so the poltergeists and strage ghosts can't be youkai ghosts. They are all their own independant beings.
Regarding the evolutionary line I've been making, does Ran count as bishoujo? She already has nine tails, and she only has to lose five of them now to become a Tenko (divine fox). We assume from this that Ran is bishoujo and that her tenko form is Perfect stage. I used Ran in my evolutionary line because I didn't dare use Yukari for it. I'm not sure if she's bishoujo or perfect, but she's giving the impression of perfect....
-
Who would've thought that the dead would be more complex than the living...
But you already managed to figure out how we have to deal with those pretty well, so there's not much I have to add right now.
Only thing I have some thoughts on are Poltergeists. It is said that those can be grouped together with phantoms, so seeing the as PNP-producing is a possibility.
On the other hand I think they could be seen as a special case like the Hourai-beings, where the evolution lines are distorted by external influence. They possess objects, so we might have a case similar to sentient objects here, which are at the start of youkai evolution lines. But then they are able to gain physical form and abilities like a youkai of mature level. And yet they are constructed like sentries and actually don't count as living beings.
So my guess is that they might very well produce PNP by themselves, but probably rely on additional external PNP to go into humanoid form and fight, just as it is for youkai/ human.
That last sentence would also go for Youmu, by the way, as we would assume that her phantom half produces PNP as well.
Good luck on the evolution lines, I can imagine they must be a lot of work.
As for Ran, I would definitely place her on bishoujo level, with Tenko being perfection form, just as you said.
-
Looks like you all have the discrepancies all settled.
In your opinion do we need to do more work in terms of classification of enemies?
They're majority faeries anyway.
I'll look into bullet shape and color next but probably has no link.
wait...I jsut thought of something. It's obvious but still relevant. Cound the variety of bullet colors correspond to the users PNP level?
-
I think we can stick with the classification we have now, unless someone discovers a completely new enemy type or something.
As for your last question, I'd say definitely yes. Just look at the different buillets shot by a single fairy, a doom fairy and then a boss. There's a clear difference there and we know that they have different levels of PNP.
-
I suppose it would take too long to get a measurable system for determining color variety. So Kogasa despite being only a stage 2 boss has a midboss card that just screams taste the rainbow. While on the other hand Parsee's attacks have less variety in color.
Wow..I just found a way to classify characters according to power level that doesn't involve the stages.
Gotta test it a few times.
-
Sounds good, I'm interested what your results will be.
Just one thought though, as Danmaku are controlled by will, you might also want to consider the character's personality a bit. Characters that are usually calm and composed might tend to use less colourful but more thought-out patterns, while cheerful and upbeat ones might lean towards more colourful and random patterns.
-
Rumia, despite being a darkness youkai, uses a rainbow barage at one point too. Same goes for Cirno and Meiling (Though Cirno evenyually freezes them). Flandre has pretty colourful ones too (most prominently Starbow Break). Meanwhile Remi only uses red orbs and Patchy tends to use only one or two colours at a time. Sakuya doesn't count since she just uses knives.
Rumia, Cirno, Meiling and Flandre are all childish, happy-go-lucky girls, while Remilia and Patchouli are dead serious. Parsee is always jealous, and appears pretty dark and serious, so she uses only a few colors too. Marisa is probably the most optimistic character in the series and uses nothing but rainbows. The colorfulness of the danmaku seems to indeed depend on the personality of the caster.
It might have something to do with power too. The most colourful ones are mostly stage 1-3 bosses. Marisa is a stage 4 boss and she uses nothing but rainbows. Meanwhile Yuyuko only uses pink and purple, and her power is insane. Yuuka and Suika, part of the Gensokyo Top, don't have much color varity in their danmaku either. Yukari on the other hand (Miss 'I-Can-Turn-The-World-Inside-Out') uses pretty varied colors. Sure, it starts of as only a few colors at a time or just variations of purple, blue and red, but her penultimate spellcard (and probably her most brutal) is one big seizure storm of colors. Yukari has a pretty colourful personality though...
-
So the colors reflect the characters personality rather than their power level.
Interesting.