Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Rikter on September 15, 2009, 07:32:38 PM
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It is UFO right? Just checking because I need to crush someone who said they could beat any game I play at a higer difficulty than me in the timespan of 3 days.
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Probably UFO at every difficulty other than Easy and Extra.
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I personally find SA Normal incredibly difficult while I don't find UFO Normal as difficult as most people say.
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Many of the games are hard for different reasons. SoEW is considered hard for bad mechanics (at least the extra anyways), PoFV is hard for the danmaku being mostly random bullets everywhere and having silly AI that can dodge you for 5 minutes or get hit 5 times in 1 minute, SA has the weakest bombs and shot types, and UFO just has hard danmaku in general (brofists and curvy lasers D:). Personally I think SA is harder to 1CC by far compared to UFO, which practically showers you with lives if you are good with UFOs. SA punishes you for dying by giving you even fewer lives, and has bombs that can barely take off 1/4 health from a spellcard.
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SA, up until normal at least. On hard/lunatic, UFO would probably take that title away.
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UFO is by far the hardest once you get to hard/lunatic.
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It's simply unfair to judge UFO at this point because it's so new. Every game people have always went "this lunatic is IMPOSSIBLE. And I know we said that last game but this time it really is!" Sure UFO still seems to have that status, but remember that you can get upwards of 15 lives potentially.
I'd say EoSD or SA. EoSD isn't the hardest in terms of danmaku, but it is very easy to screw up on and you don't get a whole lot of lives. SA is easy...if you're good at the game. If you're not, it's very difficult to gain power and lives. Utsuho kind of spoils the game's difficulty though.
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Well I guess they get UFO hard then. If they agree we'll get to see all the replays of someone who has never played Touhou ever before in a few days...
And there comments on it as well...
Should be interesting.
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I'd say EoSD if not only because you don't get a visible hitbox (the hitbox patch is just cheap if you ask me) :V
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EoSD is actually pretty doable. Sure it's not very forgiving in lives or bombs, but most of the spellcards aren't too bad once you've figured out how they work.
I'd vote SA. That game is just hell and back (hehe, pun). The shot types all do some pretty pitiful damage and the bombs are pretty laughable. Not to mention Utsuho's giant suns can be a min and eye rape sometimes.
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I'd say EoSD if not only because you don't get a visible hitbox (the hitbox patch is just cheap if you ask me) :V
You play shmups a lot and are irked by that? I actually trust my hitbox in EoSD more than any other game because I'm so intimate of its location.
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UFO or SA is the hardest in terms of "how can weave through that many bullets?" hard. SoEW is the hardest in terms of "no fair, these attacks are too fast, I can't even tell what's going on!"
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I personally find SA Normal incredibly difficult while I don't find UFO Normal as difficult as most people say.
It's the complete opposite for me. I can't do crap in UFO Normal, but found SA Normal quite doable. Stage 5 is hard as fuck, but stage 6 is pretty easy for a final stage, so even if Orin completely rapes you you still have a chance.
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UFO or SA is the hardest in terms of "how can weave through that many bullets?" hard. SoEW is the hardest in terms of "no fair, these attacks are too fast, I can't even tell what's going on!"
People have GOT to actually play SoEW more before they come to conclusions like this. Over 50% of the stage portions are streaming. In terms of just surviving, I actually place SoEW as the easiest, mostly because with proper bombing Mima is a disgrace to final bosses.
However, I would place SoEW lunatic as the hardest in the series to do no bombs, mostly because I'm pretty sure it's infeasible to do so. Mima, seemingly in an attempt to make up for her general ease of defeat, possesses two attacks that are nigh-impossible to dodge and very easily become undodgeable (anyone who's played SoEW above normal should know which two I'm talking about). It would be very easy to game over on Mima even after beating everything else no deaths just because of this, because she is guaranteed to use these attacks combined at least four times during the fight.
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The undodgable stars and the bullets with stupid hitboxes?
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I'd say EoSD if not only because you don't get a visible hitbox (the hitbox patch is just cheap if you ask me) :V
You play shmups a lot and are irked by that? I actually trust my hitbox in EoSD more than any other game because I'm so intimate of its location.
I'm not irked by it in the least; I just say it's the hardest because of that. Just because it's hard doesn't mean I don't like it. :P
If we're going by danmaku difficulty over personal opinion, I'd have to say SA is the hardest.
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I'd say EoSD if not only because you don't get a visible hitbox (the hitbox patch is just cheap if you ask me) :V
You play shmups a lot and are irked by that? I actually trust my hitbox in EoSD more than any other game because I'm so intimate of its location.
Agreed. I got the No Hitbox patches for SA and MoF. I hardly even LOOK at my character anymore unless I need precision, which is actually rare - my gaze is usually a couple inches -above- my character. I just know my hitbox on instinct now.
Also.
EZ Modo would probably go to PoFV for being the only notable difficulty EZ modo.
Normal Modo would go SA
Hard goes to SA again, but UFO is close behind.
Lunatic goes to UFO though.
For score runs though, I think UFO is unquestionably the hardest to score run on Hard/Lunatic
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The undodgable stars and the bullets with stupid hitboxes?
Dodgeable from the side. I'm going to probably experiment on this (more) when I get everything else done. What agitates me even more is the attack where Mima sends out the orbs, which then suddenly break away and move very quickly. Still, SoEW isn't that bad.
UFO is severely overrated. Even though it may be legitimately difficult, it still gives you a crapton of resources to use for a 1cc. That's all shot types. You just need to use a strategy for UFO chaining. Or "man it up" and run through perfectly; your call.
SA is overrated, and more or less the stages are just a memorization fest. Bosses and SCs are a different story, and unlike the previous games or UFO, you can't bomb spam your way through them.
:kanakodwi:
PoFV is easy enough if you know what to do. PoDD is... eh. I really don't know. Trying to score in that game will most likely end up with you being on the bad end of the spam, and there's little gain from scoring (2 extra lives only, compared to PoFV's).
PCB and IN seem to be tame enough. MoF's bombs are too good; and too common if you know when and where to bomb.
I don't play EoSD enough to warrant me giving a decent judgment on its difficulty.
LLS and MS have a few quirks that I won't bother putting out.
Overall, UFO is the hardest if you don't want to can't bomb or mass lives. However, for 1cc I would have to say... PoDD.
...I have a feeling I'm missing something, but I don't know what...
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The key factor in UFO's difficulty (and also, to some extent, SA) is that it's quite easy to lose 70% or more of your possible resources by failing your way through the game. PCB is different (but easy enough not to really matter) but in EoSD, IN, and MoF you're basically guaranteed maximum resources just by making it to the end of the game.
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I think I would consider SA the hardest, with UFO coming in a close second. SA is just so tricky; it has so many bullets in the first few stages.
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I have no idea why people say SA normal is the hardest thing ever. The game doesn't really have any hard danmaku. It just
sucks so much that people refuse to practice ithas really shitty bombs and shot types.
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I have no idea why people say SA normal is the hardest thing ever. The game doesn't really have any hard danmaku. It just sucks so much that people refuse to practice ithas really shitty bombs and shot types.
Shitty game mechanics.
Some cards are actually a challenge to capture and NOT timeout, especially with the bomb system where if you die after using all of your bombs, you get only 2 power which is not enough to capture some cards, so you are basically stuck with half power for the entire stage unless you can consistently do most parts.
And Orin. Be of Good Cheer, yeah right.
Plain unfair nonspells, stupid spells which force you to circle around her or throw an assload of fairies in your face.
Same for UFO. The power penalty after death is too damn huge.
Especially when trying to practice without spamming bombs, you'll be stuck with zero power in no time.
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I'd probably say UFO. I'd be lucky to make it to stage 5 even if I had a full stock of lives by Stage 3.
SA's not much of a problem, though. Orin's way too overhyped in difficulty. Actually, I have more of a problem with her stage than I do with her fight.
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Stage is maybe 1 death for me, as you can trivialize it by doing it pacifist.
Her nonspells though.....100% clipdeath.
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Definitely UFO, I think... it's the only one that I still struggle with quite a lot on Lunatic. :V Goddamned crazy Shou lasers.
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I beat UFO 1cc on normal on my 3rd (or was it 2nd?) try.
I still can't beat SA on normal every try >=P. It's wayyy harder for me on normal.
I haven't played any games on hard other than eosd and pcb since I've grinded them on lunatic before moving on, and have since been trying other shooters in the meantime >=P.
As for people saying SA isn't hard by its danmaku but rather by its game mechanics....I don't know. I think it's a bit of both really.
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I can survive up to Boss!Orin on SA Normal while I can hardly go past Stage 4 of MoF on the same difficulty level. Oh, and I actually got to Byakuren on UFO Normal.
Make of this however you wish.
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UFO Normal and above is hard to master because of the Sadist Power System.
SA Normal is hard because of useless bombs and Sadist Power System.
I'm seeing a pattern here, I cannot count how many times I can't 1cc just because Shou killed me 1 time too many.
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It took me about a month after UFO was released to 1cc Normal.
I still haven't 1cc'ed SA normal. e.e Fuck SA.
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Stage is maybe 1 death for me, as you can trivialize it by doing it pacifist.
But just think of all the delicious, delicious graze you're missing!
Seriously, though, the counters are just mass streaming; it's the other stuff that always trips me up, and that's best handled by killing them off asap.
As for Boss Orin, I have come out of it with the same number of lives as I went in with, but I average about -2 or -3. (and Okuu, my best run has been -3. >.< No continue spam for me.)
I haven't spent enough time with UFO to be able to accurately gauge its difficulty, so... nyah.
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SA Normal and UFO Normal are fine to me now. Then again, I only 1cc'd SA with Reimu C (But my last attempt had 6 leftover lives at the end. Too bad the replay got screwed over somehow during Utsuho. Help?). But I 1cc'd UFO with everybody except Marisa A, so it's all good.
Anyway, I'd reckon that SA and UFO are on equal terms for hardest Normal. But UFO still gives more lives.
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If the PoFV Match Mode would fall into the acceptable criterias, ask of that someone to beat lunatic Reimu/Marisa/Shikeiki while using Mystia or Komachi.
"Happy hunting" is all I'll say. ::)
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If the PoFV Match Mode would fall into the acceptable criterias, ask of that someone to beat lunatic Reimu/Marisa/Shikeiki while using Mystia or Komachi.
"Happy hunting" is all I'll say. ::)
Reisen, Lyrica, or Merlin vs lunatic Shikieiki/Aya would be even harder. :V
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Uhh... It'd have to be a tie between SA and UFO. My reasoning is that I always try to capture spell cards. In UFO, that condemns me to multiple clip deaths on some spell cards.
As for SA, it's just plain hard. I got farther the first time playing through it than on any other Touhou (Stage 5 first time trying on Normal), but Orin is like a brick wall, and it's hard to keep each run consistent.
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People have GOT to actually play SoEW more before they come to conclusions like this...
[posted stuff]
I'm gonna have to weigh in on this one, just to emphasize how true what Donut has said is. While I haven't done any Lunatic runs (and only 3 or 4 1cc hards), I have 1cc'd Normal and done the Extras on all of 'em including the PC'98 games (haven't had a chance to get UFO yet aside from the demo ;_:) and SoEW is actually pretty easy, especially if you use ReimuC's super strong shot type (ReimuA and ReimuB are quite iffy by comparison IMHO). The game gives you more than enough lives and bombs to do a good run through it, even if the gameplay is less polished than LLS or MS. The bosses' attacks are usually super easy to avoid, with only a few that are really quite bad or nigh impossible to dodge (one of the 4 magic stone's spread attacks I bomb, Marisa's orbs flying out, Mima) Remember that it's the only of the 1p shmups in the series that you need to actively tap the attack button to get the most damage done and if you're not doing that... well, things go very badly.
On the other hand, the extra was by far the hardest/most annoying to do, simply because of how ridiculously difficult the extra boss is (bouncy ball attack is stupidly annoying to dodge, lots of health) and you only get one life per bomb one bomb per life in the extra mode(!), meaning you can't bombspam it for damage or even to avoid hits (although you do hurt it with bombs unlike most extra bosses).
The UFO demo I played was quite difficult, but I think that's mostly because I paid way too much attention to the UFOs and not the danmaku. Then again, it could require a different playstyle with more planning needed for the UFO drops. I'd say in terms of difficulty for the windows games, it's probably SA for most people in Normal difficulty, especially if you foolishly use one of the many crappy shottypes (compared to ReimuA or much more difficult to learn MarisaB).
Edit: Oops, one life per bomb? Lolz.
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I've yet to play the PC-98 games, but I would agree that UFO's difficulty is relatively overrated since it has a lot of patterns that just take some getting used-to.
A personal example would be stage 3. The lasers from Ichirin's noncards would kill me a lot because I kept flying around trying to avoid where they'd go. However, I later figured out that I only really have to pay attention to the ones moving veritically, because the diagonal lasers criss-cross with them near the bottom, making it easy for me to predict where I need to be to avoid them. Not sure if this still works on harder difficulties, but at least it no longer gives me trouble on normal mode. Now, if I could just learn to predict the laser eyes better...
Personally, I'd say Subterranean Animism is harder. If someone has never played touhou before stage 1 will tear them to ribbons even on easy mode, and will likely have a lot of problems against Parsee's gimmicky cards (not to mention Satori makes a nice newbie killer depending on shot type, and on the off-chance THAT doesn't work Orin and her stage will be the brick wall to stop them cold...).
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What's the deal with everyone and Orin (on normal) again? I can consistently one death normal mode Orin and yet I always lose about 5 lives to Utsuho.
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What's the deal with everyone and Orin (on normal) again? I can consistently one death normal mode Orin and yet I always lose about 5 lives to Utsuho.
I was trying to think about it from the perspective of someone who hasn't played touhou before since the OP seems to imply the person they're making a bet with hasn't played them before, but I guess I'm probably not the best to take advice from since they both tear me apart...
Even if through some miracle I were to get past Orin, I'd need at least 3 lives in stock (and 1 or 2 more I can get from life shards) in order to survive Utsuho and 1CC the game, and since I use Marisa A this means I'll be low on power for the majority of the bout (something that won't be fun since Utsuho has such notoriously high HP...).
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UFO>SA :V
For SA, I've found out that spending less time 1ccing and more time grinding the problematic stages helps a whole lot.
I was able to go from 7 deaths on Orin to no deaths Orin in 1 day, on hard.
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Ok I change my mind. SA is definitely harder than UFO. UFO is fairly consistent in how everything plays out, and it's fairly easy to maneuver through the spell cards because they're all relatively standard dodging. SA though has some devilish patterns and quirks that make it extremely difficult to keep a consistent pace throughout the game. The problem is compounded by the fact that bombing doesn't really solve anything. The only boss in UFO that might throw a wrench into runs is Shou, but anything that she throws at the player can be solved by bombs. In SA, that strategy doesn't really work unless you want to compromise the rest of the boss fight.
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For SA, I've found out that spending less time 1ccing and more time grinding the problematic stages helps a whole lot.
Doesn't this apply to all the games?
I know I had to practice against Youmu in PCB a while before I could reliably fight her without having to rely on just bombing all her cards...
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I'm not very good, so I only play normal. SA and EosD are the hardest. Specially SA, I'm positive I won't be able to beat Utsuho, ever. I don't find UFO that hard, I can consistently 1cc up till Byakuren last spellcards; I usually die because I lost a lot of lives earlier because I'm greedy with the ufos.
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Specially SA, I'm positive I won't be able to beat Utsuho, ever.
Hey, I used to think this exact same way about quite a number of things, yet just recently I started to be able to 1CC the games.
It'll happen eventually if you keep it at, you just have to keep at it.
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UFO Hard is several difficulty levels above SA Hard.
SA gave you a stage 1 and 2 freebie with Yuugi being manageable, UFO starts killing you in stage 2 and makes you ragequit in 3.
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UFO Hard is several difficulty levels above SA Hard.
SA gave you a stage 1 and 2 freebie with Yuugi being manageable, UFO starts killing you in stage 2 and makes you ragequit in 3.
Eh, I don't think so.
I admit my experience on both is limited (I still can't yet 1CC either on normal, so I don't venture into Hard much), but from what little I can tell Yamame is more difficult than Nazrin (even if they're both relatively easy), Kogasa only really has her final card as a major problem (and honestly, Chen always gave me more trouble than Kogasa, and I've had a lot more experience playing PCB hard) while Parsee... well, Parsee is pretty gimmicky, so she'll only be a problem until you learn how to properly deal with her attacks (something I have trouble with... then again, I use Marisa A and B for SA, so take that as you will). As far as stage 3 goes Yuugi's attacks can wall you, spawn on you, and do other nasty things to you. I've yet to pass either, but Yuugi tends to kill me harder.
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Kogasa is the hardest stage 2 boss in the series on hard and up. Her first card is an absolute monster.
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For SA, I've found out that spending less time 1ccing and more time grinding the problematic stages helps a whole lot.
yeah it's called "scoring"
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I can 1cc SA Hard, but I can't reach stage 3 in UFO.
Many spellcards get stupid difficulty from Normal -> Hard.
Kogasa's first is almost ridiculous, especially with non shotgun types.
The second one can spawn on you unless you hug the bottom.
The third one- OH GOD IS THAT REALLY STAGE 2
Ichirin is almost as hard as Shou. Maybe just as hard. Maybe harder.
yeah it's called "scoring"
What? o.o
I mean, I've barely spent any time in practice for the earlier touhous yet I was still able to 1cc them through simple dodging.
In MoF and higher, I've had to grind the stages for hours to get a decent tactic before even having a chance to 1cc it, but still it didn't screw me over with stupid walls once I've got the stages down.
Except for MoF stage 4, that is.
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Kogasa is the hardest stage 2 boss in the series on hard and up. Her first card is an absolute monster.
Oh, so dying to her as badly as I do to hard mode Chen ISN'T just because I suck at touhou?
Hm, well now I see more reason why I shouldn't bother trying anything outside Normal mode...
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For me, definitely SA. After months of trying, I still can't 1cc Normal, but at least I've managed to beat Orin last time! For comparison, MoF Normal took me two tries after a MarisaBugged 1cc, and UFO Normal took me 8 tries. PCB Extra was one and a half week, Phantasm was two days. IN Extra was five days just before UFO came out.
This is why I call SA a "constant Extra Stage".
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I have to ask: Did Rikter ever end up making this bet with the person he mentions in the OP?
And on that subject, assuming the person in question had never played touhou before, I'm pretty confident NONE of the games could be beaten on hard mode or higher in a timespan of just 3 days... Heck, even if Rikter set the bar at 1CCing easy mode, if someone hasn't had any curtain shooter experience even any and all the normal modes will tear them apart.
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SA's real hard. Didn't 1CC it on Easy. Tried many times.
MS comes second, with Mai and Yuki. HrTP is pretty easy once you get the hang of it, but it's pretty difficult when you first try.
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I've ventured into UFO Hard a couple of times, and I'll say that it is pretty damn hard, but just the sheer amount of resources that UFO gives you makes it doable. You just need to start abusing UFOs a lot more. I can get to Stage 4 like 0/0 usually on UFO Hard. And I can't even 1cc UFO Normal.