Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Helepolis on August 17, 2009, 05:57:13 PM

Title: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Helepolis on August 17, 2009, 05:57:13 PM
Note: This thread started originally as simply a question about SanaeB as I thought it was bugged. But it turned into a shottype discussion. So upon Baity's call threadname is changed


In non focussed mode her main bullets deal rapid damage to boss HP. When you go focussed mode the damage drops dramatically. And I mean really dramatically. Isn't the focussing of the exploding frogs supose to destroy bosses?

I don't get it.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 17, 2009, 06:02:55 PM
SanaeB is a horrible type outside score runs so yeah

Two minutes of experimentation suggest that SanaeB only fires half as many frogs while focused.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Third Eye Lem on August 17, 2009, 06:23:54 PM
I'm reminded of MarisaA from SA and EoSD/PCB; Brutal when unfocused. I'll have to give it a try sometime.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on August 17, 2009, 06:48:21 PM
Two minutes of experimentation suggest that SanaeB only fires half as many frogs while focused.

... you're not serious, are you?

Because oh god maybe I need to switch from SanaeB if this is true.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Drake on August 17, 2009, 06:58:15 PM
Both fire frogs at a rate of one frog per five normal shots. Focused is faster, but it does not fire frogs at a faster rate. However, unfocused fires twice as many frogs. Therefore MAJOR SHOTGUNNING POWER
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on August 17, 2009, 07:01:09 PM
So basically SanaB is really good if you don't get hit.

:|
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 17, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
Two minutes of experimentation suggest that SanaeB only fires half as many frogs while focused.
... you're not serious, are you?

Because oh god maybe I need to switch from SanaeB if this is true.
I was being quite serious, as well as with the struck-out part.  In exchange for the most distracting shot type in the game and somewhat mediocre damage you get the easiest time with the bright blue orb's zombie fairies, nice spread for taking out enemies that form lines or overlap, and a bomb that's okay for damage but great for scoring.

That said, I tried it a few more times and focused mode seems to consistently do at most as much damage unfocused, and a bit of the time less, but not more.  Things with larger hitboxes (i.e. UFOs) are much more affected by the splash damage and may be exceptions.  And to answer the next question, Byakuren's giant flower fantastica isn't a giant hitbox like Yuyuko's fan; however, I think she has a larger-than-normal hitbox anyway.

These are just my amateur tests, though, and I'd wait for Mefidex to give something official.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Hawk on August 17, 2009, 08:52:59 PM
I can't wait for the official word, but, based on my experiences:

Between 1 and 3 power: shotgunning unfocused does the most damage.
4 power: shotgunning focused does the highest rate of non-bomb damage in the game.  SanaeB is the new MarisaB.  Shotgunning involves getting all 4 frogs hitting, which requires getting very close to the boss.

Long-range, against bosses, you always want to be focused.  It's the same reason Patch-Fire exists for SA MarisaB.

I'm pretty sure SanaeB's normal shots (amulets?) do more damage unfocused.  For this reason, killing large fairies should almost always be done unfocused, since large fairies' hitboxes aren't large enough to hit with both focused frogs.

I'll be interested to see who wins out in the end for score runs, SanaeB or MarisaA.  SanaeB is better in pretty much every way, but MarisaA's graze hitbox is substantially larger, and piercing's pretty awesome.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 12:15:37 AM
I'll be interested to see who wins out in the end for score runs, SanaeB or MarisaA.  SanaeB is better in pretty much every way, but MarisaA's graze hitbox is substantially larger, and piercing's pretty awesome.
I think it would come down to bombing for Graze farming, which only SanaeB can do.  I think it would be easier than trying to find safespots in Syou's nonspells.

So close to being better than ReimuA only to be turned away because of the animated options - isn't it sad, MarisA?
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Ghaleon on August 18, 2009, 12:30:53 AM
Wait, Sanae-B's nuke bomb is "ok" for damage? I thought it was crazy powerful.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 12:46:00 AM
Wait, Sanae-B's nuke bomb is "ok" for damage? I thought it was crazy powerful.
That depends on how close you are to the boss when you set the bomb.
If you aren't right on top of the enemy it's about as good as anyone else's.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on August 18, 2009, 12:50:34 AM
So to get the most optimal damage with SanaeB, you have to shotgun the enemy while unfocused.
YEEEAAAAH
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Slaves on August 18, 2009, 12:53:53 AM
well i cleared Nazrin's first card in about 3 seconds with Sanae B

so yeah
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Ghaleon on August 18, 2009, 12:57:26 AM
So general consensus is that the best character is Sanae-B or Marissa A? Funny, those are the two I've completed the game with so far, I haven't even tried the others yet.

Piercing seems especially important in this iteration of touhou imo with all the enemies, not to mention it really helps shooting down UFOs after you load them up with powerups. I struggle to down them sometimes as sanae due to enemies stacking up too much underneath. ARGH.

I find Marissa A is absolutely terrible compared to Sanae at the extra boss though. Just seems like despite piercing, she doesn't shoot down ufos ever. It's especially bad for the green ufo spellcard, that one is really tough if you don't shoot down any.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 01:20:29 AM
So general consensus is that the best character is Sanae-B or Marisa A?
Basically.

MarisA - Newfangled high-damage low-range with piercing.  Only real weakness vs. ReimuA is that her options glow as much as the bullets do, which is not welcome against Syou and Byakuren.
ReimuA - Old-fashioned high-damage low-range.

SanaeB - Best when shotgunning unfocused; otherwise mediocre damage.  Decent spread regardless of focus; frogs are annoying and distracting.  Bomb's decency depends on how close you are to the boss when using it (see part about shotgunning again).
MarisaB - Best when shotgunning focused.  I'm really not sure what to make of her backward-firing unfocused shots.  Bomb is inexcusably bad; the worst in the game.  But HAY EVERYONE YOU GOT MIMA BACK sorta

ReimuB - Homing amulets are a little weaker than SanAe's snakes, but they hit much more often for more power overall.  Also, homing amulets hit more enemies at different angles and distances than SanAe's snakes (for instance, Stage 5 and Syou's green bar card).  Bomb is actually pretty decent overall.
SanAe - Snakes are cool and reliably hit enemies to the side provided they match certain criteria.  Mediocre damage and bomb overall.

That's how I'd rate them according to utility.  Which utility is best is up to you.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Reprosa on August 18, 2009, 01:23:22 AM
MarisaB is so, so bad. But it's great that there's a decent balance between characters, and between spread types and power types.

It's absolutely fantastic that Marisa's laser penetration is actually useful for more than a single boss.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 02:01:06 AM
MarisaB is so, so bad. But it's great that there's a decent balance between characters, and between spread types and power types.
She's not terrible like some of SA's shot types.  It's maybe slightly more damage than MarisA puts out, but over a wider spread.

With that said, her bomb is pathetic beyond words.  SanAe laughs at her.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Hawk on August 18, 2009, 02:08:05 AM
She's not terrible like some of SA's shot types.  It's maybe slightly more damage than MarisA puts out, but over a wider spread.

I disagree.  I'd much rather play as ReimuB or MarisaC in SA than her.  In fact, I think MarisaB in UFO is single-handedly the worst type in any Windows Touhou game, perhaps barring solo Alice in IN.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: RainfallYoshi on August 18, 2009, 02:12:45 AM
Reimu-B needs more love, seriously. I 1cced UFO within the first week of release thanks to the epicness of her homing amulets. It a bigger help than you think it is.

Her Fantasy Seal is great too, just bomb and then place the orbit of... orbs on top of the boss as you shotgun. Brilliant.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 02:14:01 AM
Except solo Sakuya is much, much worse than solo Alice.

I think this is someplace where we're going to have to disagree, because SA ReimuB is like your basic shot plus shooting air puffs (talking of your Kirby avatar...).  MarisaB does, y'know, damage; and while her bomb is inexcusably bad, it's still better than SA ReimuB's bomb.

@PriestYoshi:  Notice I ranked ReimuB over SanAe...
Also, I hate Yoshis.  I shall call you Judas Priest from now on
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Affinity on August 18, 2009, 04:18:56 AM
It seems that SanaeB is really useful for Nue, since she seems to be one of the only ones able to destroy the UFOs easily for some of her spells.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Alice Fact on August 18, 2009, 04:29:59 AM
Marisa.B can be good

oh my god this is hilarious and proves my point even further
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Helepolis on August 18, 2009, 06:39:42 AM
Ok so SanaeB is stronger in unfocussed mode and requires shotgunning for massive damage in both modes. GREAT. Screw you 2nd hand Miko.

I tried all characters + shottypes and I horribly hate ReimuB she is seriously weak. Weaker than in IN solo. But her Fantasy seal again seems to cover up the loss. Same goes for SanaeB. Weak shots in focus,  LOLSUWAKONUKEBOMB to compensate.

I'll stick to ReimuA or SanaeA, Marisa is too much to handle for me =(
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Hawk on August 18, 2009, 11:44:19 AM
Ok so SanaeB is stronger in unfocussed mode and requires shotgunning for massive damage in both modes. GREAT. Screw you 2nd hand Miko.

Well, I mean, she is a spread character at heart.  Shotgunning with spread types for massive damage has been standard from day one, and that's why I think MarisaB is bad.  Her shotgun isn't that good.  Now, I'm talking out of my ass, since we have no hard numbers yet, but it feels weaker than simply attacking with MarisaA.  And those back shots are absolutely worthless.  Patch-Earth was good in SA because it did so much damage because it was so situational.  I thought to myself, "Oh, these back shots would be great for the end of Stage 3, since now I can just circle around the screen."  Except that half the fairies still end up surviving because the rate of fire's too slow.

I dunno.  I want someone to upload a replay to prove me wrong.  Please.  Show me MarisaB not just surviving, but being effective in some way.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Affinity on August 18, 2009, 11:58:37 AM
The backshot is probably good for the final bosses' final nonspell and Syou's green bar spellcard, as well as for some of Nue's UFO attacks.  Other than that, I don't really see how the backshot is very useful, or how MarisaB warrants use over the more easily usable homing shot types.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 12:47:46 PM
I tried all characters + shottypes and I horribly hate ReimuB she is seriously weak. Weaker than in IN solo.
Nnnnnnnno, ReimuB does not time out attacks for fun.  She's better than I thought she would be, especially for boss attacks where it's difficult to stay directly underneath them (surprisingly many).

Quote
how MarisaB warrants use over the more easily usable homing shot types.
Shotgun power.  Key word here is power.
As far as what Hawk's talking about, idk, because shotgunning is kind of the only thing MarisaB has going for her aside from an apparent dialogue-based fandom.

Also @Hawk:  Did you get my PM?
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: LHCling on August 18, 2009, 01:00:14 PM
Probably, change the topic to "UFO shot types discussion" or something like that if you're going to do comparisons between shot types and whatnot.

On the topic of SanaeB, I present:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64D7uLIvbWk

I'd put more discussion up, but I won't be able to give out any more until tomorrow, when I actually get the full version  :V

EDIT: Shotgun MarisaB only about as good as MarisaA, if not a little bit worse.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Hawk on August 18, 2009, 03:34:37 PM
Also @Hawk:  Did you get my PM?

Yes.  Geez, Mom.

(Actually, it's kickass.  Thanks.)

Quote
EDIT: Shotgun MarisaB only about as good as MarisaA, if not a little bit worse.

I figured as much.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: RainfallYoshi on August 18, 2009, 03:39:39 PM
ReimuB is not weak. o_o

She works exceptionally when you're in cramped danmaku and don't have the luxury of moving underneath the boss all the time, and this situation happens a ton. UFO seems to be focused on throwing suffocating danmaku at you.

Her bomb is nice too, it does decent damage to a boss, and any extra orbs without something to target will spread out to the edges of the screen. It's a fantastic screen eraser.

I will say that ReimuB suffers the most when she loses power, the same way she did in MoF. If you lose too much power in the middle of a boss you're going to be slitting your wrists because things will start becoming survival cards.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 05:25:27 PM
I will say that ReimuB suffers the most when she loses power, the same way she did in MoF. If you lose too much power in the middle of a boss you're going to be slitting your wrists because things will start becoming survival cards.
This is correct.  ReimuB at low power is actually really horrible.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Slaves on August 18, 2009, 07:08:43 PM
ReimuB at low power is actually really horrible.

back in the Demo, Nazrin's last card was actually dangerous with Reimu B, the red bubbles were rapid fire by the time you cleared it, and the blue bullets had really small gaps.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Helepolis on August 18, 2009, 07:22:59 PM
Actually this was not meant as a shottype discussion but it turned into one.

I tried shotgunning in focus mode ( example on Nazrin's face ) but it did nowhere the damage as in unfocussed mode. So that is why I asked what was wrong with Sanae.

I'll modify the thread title I guess =/ as I got my awnser, it is not a bug but simply style of playing.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: ?q on August 18, 2009, 07:28:31 PM
ReimuB at low power is actually really horrible.
back in the Demo, Nazrin's last card was actually dangerous with Reimu B, the red bubbles were rapid fire by the time you cleared it, and the blue bullets had really small gaps.
To a degree that's still true.
Title: Re: UFO: What is wrong with SanaeB?
Post by: Flay_wind on August 18, 2009, 08:30:37 PM
back in the Demo, Nazrin's last card was actually dangerous with Reimu B, the red bubbles were rapid fire by the time you cleared it, and the blue bullets had really small gaps.
So very true. http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=4389
It's my really horrible 5a.m. run, but managed to capture/time out Nazrin's last spell at 0.98 =) Just skip to it and see for yourself.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Garlyle on August 19, 2009, 01:42:34 AM
Nazrin's pendulums on Hard/Lunatic can go die in a fire.  Only MarisaA and maybe SanaeB can really beat her in a timely fashion.

Also, I -think- ReimuA outputs more damage than MarisaA... and M-A makes up for it with piercing.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sen on August 19, 2009, 02:15:25 AM
^ReimuA is statistically the strongest shot type in the game at long range, where you'll theoretically be most of the time.

I use SanaeA and MarisaA and the only thing I hate about Marisa is LOL SLOW AS SHIT SPARK  :V
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Ghaleon on August 20, 2009, 12:09:18 AM
I use SanaeA and MarisaA and the only thing I hate about Marisa is LOL SLOW AS SHIT SPARK  :V

Yeah sometimes I blow a bomb on regular stage enemies so I can safely grab that UFO that's been taunting me for a minute straight. only to realize that I still can't grab it cuz master spark appears to turn Mariassa's flight speed into molasses as a side effect.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Nine West on August 20, 2009, 12:17:22 AM
the only thing I hate about Marisa is LOL SLOW AS SHIT SPARK  :V

Which is really annoying when I have to use a bomb to save my life just before the end of a spell card  :P

Also, it seems that I need to play around with more than one character in these games...
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on August 20, 2009, 12:19:39 AM
Yeah sometimes I blow a bomb on regular stage enemies so I can safely grab that UFO that's been taunting me for a minute straight. only to realize that I still can't grab it cuz master spark appears to turn Mariassa's flight speed into molasses as a side effect.
Actually, I've noticed that I feel a little faster while using SanaeB's bomb... May it be that NukeFrog is the next Private Square?
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: _Zac_ on August 20, 2009, 06:45:47 AM
Yeah sometimes I blow a bomb on regular stage enemies so I can safely grab that UFO that's been taunting me for a minute straight. only to realize that I still can't grab it cuz master spark appears to turn Mariassa's flight speed into molasses as a side effect.
Actually, I've noticed that I feel a little faster while using SanaeB's bomb... May it be that NukeFrog is the next Private Square?
Or the lack of worrying about shots.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: sohvan on August 20, 2009, 10:22:37 AM
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that SanaeB is good usually, and overpowered when shotgunning? Just because shotgunning is much more effective, it still doesn't mean that playing normally with her is crap. SanaeB with 2 frogs hitting can still take down spellcards at quite a decent speed, and has the best spread of all the shots for clearing stage enemies. I've found SanaeB to be very effective at lower powers compared to some of the other characters as well. I feel a lot less gimped playing with 2.0 power SanaeB than the same with ReimuA or ReimuB.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: ?q on August 20, 2009, 12:39:12 PM
Without shotgunning, SanaeB isn't really that good against bosses unless you're playing Nazrin's pendulum card.  The splash damage is great for breaking UFOs prematurely, too.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on August 20, 2009, 12:48:17 PM
Yeah sometimes I blow a bomb on regular stage enemies so I can safely grab that UFO that's been taunting me for a minute straight. only to realize that I still can't grab it cuz master spark appears to turn Mariassa's flight speed into molasses as a side effect.
Actually, I've noticed that I feel a little faster while using SanaeB's bomb... May it be that NukeFrog is the next Private Square?
Or the lack of worrying about shots.
Bleh.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Iryan on August 20, 2009, 05:29:27 PM
SanaeB is, however, extremely useful in the extra stage.
The splash damage reduces the difficulty of the UFO cards drastically.

Also, the ability to kill ufos with the splash damage that would otherwise fly away because an army of cannon fodder fairies blocks the shots is helpful in my book.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Helepolis on August 20, 2009, 08:36:37 PM
I hate SanaeB for killing UFOs when I don't want them. SanaeA comes close to that aswell but not as bad as B. Still I find ReimuA best to use, but using her during Stage 4-5 is pain in the ass.

And how many times can you shotgun with SanaeB anyway? Most bosses force you to stay at distance.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sen on August 20, 2009, 09:13:57 PM
On Normal, to my knowledge, you can shotgun
-All of Nazrin bar her final card
-Kogasa's second and third cards
-Ichirin's second and third cards
-Murasa's second card
-All of Shou's cards bar her second
-Byakuren's fourth and fifth cards kinda

Haven't bothered with Extra for the most part so I can't comment there =\
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: ?q on August 20, 2009, 09:34:59 PM
Actually, I would expect SanaeB to be useful in the Extra stage, but that would involve me unlocking it for her first~
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Slaves on August 20, 2009, 09:58:58 PM
the first video of the Extra stage(on youtube) was someone using Sanae B, which lead everyone to believe that Nue was easy peasy(not saying she's hard, but still) because she basically kills the UFO cards.

so Sanae B is probably the best to play the extra with in terms of safety, but Reimu A is still the best in terms of damage.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Azinth on August 20, 2009, 10:11:24 PM
Nue's UFO cards are pretty easy no matter what character you use tbh.  The first two especially can usually have their patterns wrecked by simply blowing up one UFO at the right moments, so the low-damage characters can still beat them easily if you know what you're doing.

Also, as far as characters' bombs go, I'd actually say that SanaeA/B and ReimuB have the best bombs while Marisa/Reimu A have two of the worst.  They slow you down to glacial speeds, and their extra damage is quite pointless thanks to the lack of spellcard armor in this game.  I use SanaeA, who supposedly has a weak bomb, yet I can easily one-shot most of the attacks in the game, usually even at 1.00 power.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Ghaleon on August 20, 2009, 10:26:13 PM
Nue's UFO cards are pretty easy no matter what character you use tbh.  The first two especially can usually have their patterns wrecked by simply blowing up one UFO at the right moments, so the low-damage characters can still beat them easily if you know what you're doing.

Also, as far as characters' bombs go, I'd actually say that SanaeA/B and ReimuB have the best bombs while Marisa/Reimu A have two of the worst.  They slow you down to glacial speeds, and their extra damage is quite pointless thanks to the lack of spellcard armor in this game.  I use SanaeA, who supposedly has a weak bomb, yet I can easily one-shot most of the attacks in the game, usually even at 1.00 power.

I find the green and yellow ufo cards to be quite difficult as Marissa..A? I forget, the master spark one. It's really easy once you kill a UFO in time as whoever, but for some reason sometimes one just wont die with Marissa for me.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Zetzumarshen on August 21, 2009, 10:08:20 AM
Nue's UFO cards are pretty easy no matter what character you use tbh.  The first two especially can usually have their patterns wrecked by simply blowing up one UFO at the right moments, so the low-damage characters can still beat them easily if you know what you're doing.


Any replay or more specific tips on Red and Blue UFO cards?
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Esoterica on August 22, 2009, 01:49:18 AM
Personal preference in terms of shot types:

SanaeA - I'm normally not a fan of homing types, but something about this shot really clicks with me (probably because it's Sanae, but whatever :V)
SanaeB - LOLSHOTGUN.  Breaks my UFOs early though, and that makes me sad.
MarisaB - See above, minus the UFO breaking part.  Also reminds me of Mima~
ReimuA - It's a great shot, but needles have gotten really boring over the years :<
MarisaA - Never been a fan of laser types.
ReimuB - lol homing type

In terms of bombs:

SanaeA - Consistent damage throughout and usually strong enough to finish off any spellcard I don't like.
SanaeB - Like above, but only strong if I'm on top of the boss.
ReimuA - Powerful and longlasting.  The only reason it's not on top is because I hardly ever use ReimuA.
ReimuB - Decently powerful and quick to activate, in addition to having shiny colors.
MarisaA - LOL SLOW AS HELL
MarisaB - You know why this is where it is.

Obviously my preferences don't exactly lie with the actual efficiency of each shot type though.

Somewhat related: SanaeA's stronger than ReimuB, yes?
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sodium on August 22, 2009, 01:52:30 AM
SanaeA>=ReimuB
The difference isn't very big, although SanaeA is slightly more powerful.

Oh, and SanaeA's bomb is the 5th weakest, because Reimu, MarisA, and SanaeB all have powerful bombs.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: ?q on August 22, 2009, 02:54:41 AM
However, ReimuB's homing amulets are better for hitting things at odd angles and are debatably more useful at full power.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Bananamatic on August 22, 2009, 03:01:27 PM
Is it just me or do we get worse and worse Marisas?
And Marisa A.....that laser is simply blinding.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2009, 03:20:49 PM
Is it just me or do we get worse and worse Marisas?
And Marisa A.....that laser is simply blinding.

Worse and worse?  I'm not sure what you mean.  MarisaB rules EoSD, but after that she's nowhere to be seen for two games.  Then we got to MoF where MarisaC rules again and SA where MarisaA wins Easy and MarisaB wins Normal and Hard.

Of course, that's just referring to score.  If you want survivability, what's your metric?  MarisaA and MarisaC in MoF have the great survival options open to them.  MarisaA in SA offers the most freebies in the form of bombs, and MarisaB is just amazing.  True, Needles-Reimu always wins at long distance, but has no spread as a result.  Stages become harder, and bosses become (especially in UFO) very slightly easier.  MarisaA is almost as powerful as ReimuA, and her piercing is incredibly useful for stages, since UFOs are vital for high survival chances.

But yeah, MarisaB sucks.

Also, I didn't even realize Marisa's lasers were bright until I heard people complaining about them.  On the other hand, I have a very hard time with SanaeB's explosions and, to a lesser extent, ReimuA's needle-hit-things.  But that's just me.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: homing curvy laser on August 22, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
I find it weird how, while everyone says MarisA's laser is blinding and makes bullets invisible and whatnot, NOBODY SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT THAT EAR-PIERCING HIGH-PITCHED NOISE IT DOES. It was the first I noticed on the first time I used this MarisA, and even though I eventually end up ignoring it, goddamn it makes me want to kill myself affasdfdasf
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sodium on August 22, 2009, 06:00:27 PM
Of course, that's just referring to score.  If you want survivability, what's your metric?  MarisaA and MarisaC in MoF have the great survival options open to them.  MarisaA in SA offers the most freebies in the form of bombs, and MarisaB is just amazing
MoF MarisA sucks. The splash is useless in that game, the spread isn't all that good, and ReimuB outclasses it completely in terms of attack power. MarisaC however is nice(my main shot type in MoF)

SA Marisa sucks. MarisA may have 8 bombs max, but they suck, you're not going to be getting power back if you use too many, and her attack power isn't all that great either. MarisaB is too weak far away for the average person who's just looking to 1cc, shotgunning requires planning, and her spread isn't even useful in certain stages. MarisaC is a joke compared to ReimuA. And then there's the larger hitbox Marisa has.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Ghaleon on August 22, 2009, 06:53:12 PM
Is it just me or do we get worse and worse Marisas?
And Marisa A.....that laser is simply blinding.

I find Marissa A is quite good in UFO, you're a druggy.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2009, 07:06:11 PM
MoF MarisA sucks. The splash is useless in that game, the spread isn't all that good, and ReimuB outclasses it completely in terms of attack power. MarisaC however is nice(my main shot type in MoF)

Reimu Needles will pretty much always outclass anything in terms of attack power.  That's her point.  MarisaA in MoF offers a nice mix between power (which is most certainly not bad, even if it isn't ReimuB's), and spread.

SA Marisa sucks. MarisA may have 8 bombs max, but they suck, you're not going to be getting power back if you use too many, and her attack power isn't all that great either. MarisaB is too weak far away for the average person who's just looking to 1cc, shotgunning requires planning, and her spread isn't even useful in certain stages. MarisaC is a joke compared to ReimuA. And then there's the larger hitbox Marisa has.

SA MarisaA's bombs do suck, but she gets power back at an increased rate, and, what?  Her attack power is among the highest in the game.  Unfocused and focused.

True, Patch-Fire is one of the weaker long-range shots, and yes, she requires some amount of trivial planning (it's an entirely different discussion as to who's best for blind runs, but...who cares?), but her spread is useful in every stage, bar none.  If you don't want to put forth the effort required to use her effectively (once again, not nearly as much as people make it out to be), that's FINE.  But she certainly doesn't suck.  You don't need to be a high-tier Japanese scorerunner to make good use of her abilities.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Suikama on August 22, 2009, 07:41:07 PM
Her attack power is among the highest in the game.  Unfocused and focused.
Too bad Reimu A's overall power is the best period.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sodium on August 22, 2009, 08:18:39 PM
Meh, perhaps not exactly "suck" but there's almost no point in using MarisaA(MoF). Her spread is awkward, she's outpowered by ReimuB, the shots can miss moving bosses, and MarisaC can be used as spread with attack power. Still not the worst shot type in the game though(MarisaB(no glitch) or ReimuC probably get that dubious award)

Er, whoops. Haven't read the shot type comparison in a while, so my memory was a bit fuzzy. I thought her focused shot far away was weaker then what it actually is(thought it was between Nitori UF and Patch Fire, but it's equal to Nitori F.). Power(items, not attack power) is still an issue with MarisaA because it still requires more power items to get to max, and you're going to end up using more bombs because of how weak they are.

From a perspective of someone who's looking for a simple 1cc, MarisaB is bad. You could put in effort to use her correctly, but it's not worth it because there are much easier shot types you could use and get the same result. It's a jack of all trades, but master of none(minus shotgunning). I'm not saying it's Magic Team level of suck, but the flaws outweigh it's advantages, imo.

Hell, ask Donut about how he tried to 1cc Normal with MarisaB for a while(this is someone who 1cc'd all the other Lunatics at the time), and then in his first time using ReimuA, he 1cc'd it.

Worst shot type in SA is ReimuB anyways. It's a homing type that doesn't do homing well.

Oh, and back on topic(UFO shot type topic):
Worst UFO shot type is MarisaB. Discuss.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2009, 08:54:20 PM
From a perspective of someone who's looking for a simple 1cc, MarisaB is bad. You could put in effort to use her correctly, but it's not worth it because there are much easier shot types you could use and get the same result. It's a jack of all trades, but master of none(minus shotgunning). I'm not saying it's Magic Team level of suck, but the flaws outweigh it's advantages, imo.

Hell, ask Donut about how he tried to 1cc Normal with MarisaB for a while(this is someone who 1cc'd all the other Lunatics at the time), and then in his first time using ReimuA, he 1cc'd it.

Different strokes.  SA was destroying me with ReimuA because I couldn't do the stages.  I wouldn't use MarisaA because I wanted to be able to focus.  And, voila, I have a shot type that has exactly what I need.  I didn't know what I was doing at the time.  I didn't have extensive strategies for when to sweetspot Earth or how Metal completely annihilates Stage 2.  All the neophyte needs is Fire and Water, one for bosses and one for stages.  Leave the other three for later.  For that level of accessability, I'm willing to take a hit on boss damage.  But that's me.

Worst shot type in SA is ReimuB anyways. It's a homing type that doesn't do homing well.
If held at gunpoint, I'm not sure if I would use Suika or Nitori.  I think Suika edges the other out by just a small amount.

Oh, and back on topic(UFO shot type topic):
Worst UFO shot type is MarisaB. Discuss.
Yes.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Slaves on August 22, 2009, 08:58:43 PM
Oh, and back on topic(UFO shot type topic):
Worst UFO shot type is MarisaB. Discuss.

incoming Amaterasu
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sodium on August 22, 2009, 09:03:32 PM
Quote
If held at gunpoint, I'm not sure if I would use Suika or Nitori.  I think Suika edges the other out by just a small amount.
I'd choose Suika just so I wouldn't have to listen to that noise from missiles hitting an enemy. I can stand the UFO MarisaA laser sound, but those missiles are just distracting.

It's not like UFO MarisaB is inherently bad(it's a manageable spread shot type), but all the other shot types are better.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2009, 10:03:00 PM
I'd choose Suika just so I wouldn't have to listen to that noise from missiles hitting an enemy. I can stand the UFO MarisaA laser sound, but those missiles are just distracting.

Oh man, that noise in the only thing I like about her!  It's like you're popping bubble wrap for ALL SIX STAGES maybe up to stage four 'cause you're sure as hell not 1CCing that shit.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: ?q on August 22, 2009, 10:09:08 PM
MoF MarisA sucks. The splash is useless in that game, the spread isn't all that good, and ReimuB outclasses it completely in terms of attack power. MarisaC however is nice(my main shot type in MoF)
Reimu Needles will pretty much always outclass anything in terms of attack power.  That's her point.  MarisaA in MoF offers a nice mix between power (which is most certainly not bad, even if it isn't ReimuB's), and spread.
Except MarisA's spread damage is terrible.
Also, at best her damage is equal to MarisaB's... which is less than ReimuB's.
Also crazy positioning distractions, etc.
Personally I'd use ReimuC before I used MarisA.  At least she can shotgun.

Quote
If held at gunpoint, I'm not sure if I would use Suika or Nitori.  I think Suika edges the other out by just a small amount.
I think Nitori wins in damage and has an arguably better bomb.

I agree that Fire and Water (possibly only Water) are all you need with MarisaB.  Anything more is usually showing off or trying to exploit 3.00 Wind + Bomb.

MarisaB in UFO isn't horrible (albeit not optimal) unless you're talking about her bomb.  Except nobody else is really horrible either (evidently, since people use SanaeB enough and she would be my pick~)

EDIT:  I agree with Hawk that having range in SA is amazing.
Unfortunately, my experience with MarisA involves 20some attempts to clear Normal, and then turning around with ReimuA and clearing it in 3.  Yay?
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sen on August 22, 2009, 10:35:10 PM
I use MarisaB in SA and she annihilates Stages better than anyone in the game. She has a shot for everything.
Bosses are a totally different story though. She's outclassed by most other shot types in terms of boss battles, although she's debatably one of the best against Orin. Since Orin requires you to fly fuck-all around the screen, there's quite a lot of opportunities for Earth Sign (beginning of Zombie Fairy, Spleen Eater, Rekindling of Dead Ashes). The rest of the time though, it's lolfiresign. ):
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: ?q on August 22, 2009, 11:13:07 PM
Because dodging becomes much easier when rapidly pounding Shift+Z?  Especially with Earth Shot's limited range.

Also, repeatedly pressing Shift+Z has a low chance of causing SA to crash IIRC... Or maybe that was the demo.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sen on August 22, 2009, 11:56:41 PM
It's not like it's hard to change shots. Less difficult than releasing all buttons with ReimuB. Using MarisaB to the greatest effect takes planning, but so does everything else in SA. Besides, it's like you said, you don't have to use all the shots, you can get by fine on only Water and Fire.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2009, 06:59:31 AM
I agree that Fire and Water (possibly only Water) are all you need with MarisaB.  Anything more is usually showing off or trying to exploit 3.00 Wind + Bomb.

That's not what I said at all.  That's why I explicitly used the word "neophyte".  I don't understand how effectively using the other types to help you survive is "showing off".

Because dodging becomes much easier when rapidly pounding Shift+Z?  Especially with Earth Shot's limited range.

Barring, like, two cards (Parsee's flower power and Boss Orin's final), there is absolutely no reason for someone who doesn't know what they're doing to switch modes during a boss form.  And once they do know what they're doing, that kind of "rapid pounding" is nothing.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Elcura on August 25, 2009, 10:39:11 AM
Because dodging becomes much easier when rapidly pounding Shift+Z?  Especially with Earth Shot's limited range.

Also, repeatedly pressing Shift+Z has a low chance of causing SA to crash IIRC... Or maybe that was the demo.

Use a gamepad.  Makes switching between types so much easier.  And a little planning with MarisaB, you got a game clear easy.  Hell, the first time I played SA with another character I sucked at the stages so bad because MarisaB would clean them up.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Garlyle on August 25, 2009, 01:30:32 PM
Quote
I agree that Fire and Water (possibly only Water) are all you need with MarisaB.  Anything more is usually showing off or trying to exploit 3.00 Wind + Bomb.

Just as an example, Stage 2 as MarisaB in SA should be done like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2uYnHez4Ck
Note that 95% of the enemies never even get to shoot because the Sideways formation wastes em - except for three enemies more reliable kiled by Diagonal.  And only one of Parsee's spellcards is best dealt with via Fire or Water.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Esoterica on August 26, 2009, 05:04:18 AM
I'm almost regretting reading this topic, because I never noticed the super glowy MarisaB options and high pitched sound until now. Doh.

In terms of bomb strength, i've never encountered a spellcard that SanaeB's nuke didn't kill, even at long range. Except for when it's used at the very beginning of a spellcard at least.
The high-pitched screech makes me want to take a hammer to my face.  First thing I noticed when I picked that shot type, though I haven't had any problems with the options through stage 5.

Really, any bomb that isn't MarisaB's should be strong enough to get you past most cards, so bomb strength isn't something I worry about in this game.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Recon 5 on August 26, 2009, 05:42:35 AM
I may not be qualified to post an opinion here as I have yet to even 1CC Normal, but I always found Marisa B's bomb to be more of a 'practice' bomb. It gives an invulnerability window to get you out of traps but it doesn't end the pattern so you can try again without restarting the whole fight. If you shotgun while it is active the bomb becomes a 'Sanae B lite' with a shorter invulnerability window and less damage than the froggie nuke. Still the worst bomb but it does have its uses.

I actually pull off my most insane rubbish when playing as Marisa B but then again how else can I survive? That's the hidden power of Marisa B I guess.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 26, 2009, 06:58:21 AM
Actually, I realized something about MarisaB's bomb lately.

Her bomb will not kill a full-health UFO.

That's fucking awesome.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Pesco on August 26, 2009, 07:05:35 AM
Who's got a good enough bomb to do a 1lc with, other than SanaeB? I've almost got it down with her and it's totally doable.

On that note, UFO lets you stock more than 8 bombs.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on August 26, 2009, 07:15:50 AM
Who's got a good enough bomb to do a 1lc with, other than SanaeB? I've almost got it down with her and it's totally doable.

On that note, UFO lets you stock more than 8 bombs.

ReimuA and MarisaA also have powerful bombs.  ReimuB's and SanaeA's bombs are good enough to bomb once the first "dangerous" thing is about to kill you.  The exception is Byakuren, since she seems to take much less damage during bombs (and, of course, no damage during a bomb during Flying Fantastica).
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Pesco on August 26, 2009, 07:23:31 AM
My bomb schedule (with SanaeB)

Stage 1 - none
Stage 2 - Once just before midboss and Train card
Stage 3 - Once after midboss, Ichirin's first and third (for safety)
Stage 4 - Liberal bombing for chaining, you come out with no net loss. No bombs needed for Murasa
Stage 5 - Both ying yang spam before Nazrin. Nazrin's card for safety. Syou's spinning laser.
Stage 6 - Byakuren's third nonspell, third spell and Shinki card for safety. At Byakuren, you need 2 bombs to clear the attack.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Esoterica on August 26, 2009, 07:48:48 AM
Actually, I realized something about MarisaB's bomb lately.

Her bomb will not kill a full-health UFO.

That's fucking awesome.
I knew this at one point, but I completely forgot.

I think I'll go for a normal 1cc tomorrow with MarisaB.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: jisakujien on September 20, 2009, 11:02:19 AM
(http://imgur.com/qX4SG.png)

[Edit: image fixed, rBf was wrong]

mAf, mAu, mBf, mBf, rAf, rAu, etc..

All at power 4.0.
All always invulnerable (and thus doing terrible damage for the last two cards).
Every shot for the entire spellcard hits, except for rAu where this is not possible.  This is even possible for mBu's back options, but it requires your entire sprite being inside the hitbox.

sB's damage is hard to pin down.  I only captured 1/2 focused and 0/2 focused, but they were really close.  Unfocused could probably capture it since the difference is ~2 seconds.  If everything is hitting, damage is slightly better focused.

Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Serela on September 20, 2009, 01:20:50 PM


mAf, mAu, mBf, mBf, rAf, rAu, etc..

All at power 4.0.
All always invulnerable (and thus doing terrible damage for the last two cards).
Every shot for the entire spellcard hits, except for rAu where this is not possible.  This is even possible for mBu's back options, but it requires your entire sprite being inside the hitbox.

sB's damage is hard to pin down.  I only captured 1/2 focused and 0/2 focused, but they were really close.  Unfocused could probably capture it since the difference is ~2 seconds.  If everything is hitting, damage is slightly better focused.

Sorry to burst your bubble (And I really am since I wish this worked), but those numbers just don't add up. It has MarisaB doing more damage then everyone except ReimuB Unfocused and SanaeB. Actually, ReimuB unfocused has a HUGE amount more damage then everyone else. What? It has ReimuA focused doing almost the exact same damage as MarisaA focus, and... you get the picture.

I'm not saying its your fault, maybe the way the game interprets the damage on Flying Fantastica while invulnerable is just weird. These numbers look too wacky. But you should probably redo the test on some high-hp card that isn't one of Byakuren's last 2, or any of Nue's cards.

It would probably be much easier to read too, since the game gives the exact time values on how long the card took to kill. Really nifty.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: moozooh on September 20, 2009, 01:58:36 PM
SA where MarisaA wins Easy and MarisaB wins Normal and Hard.
Arguably Marisa-B "wins" every mode (except probably Extra) because the difference between theoretical maximum for her and the best respective character is pretty negligible. d.f would have gotten ~4.2 billion in his Lunatic run if he hadn't needlessly died twice, and practical maximum for Reimu-A is only ~4.3 billion.

MarisaC in MoF have the great survival options open to them
Using Marisa-C for survival requires more understanding of the game than is feasible for the purpose. If you don't deploy the options at the right place and in time, you're looking at being stuck with her long-range weapons which don't deal any damage to speak of until the end of attack/enemy wave.

Actually, I realized something about MarisaB's bomb lately.

Her bomb will not kill a full-health UFO.

That's fucking awesome.
Marisa-B is more effective than Reimu-B and is about on par with Sanae-A and Reimu-A in regards to scoring. She has a larger graze hitbox and less trouble clearing the screen of popcorn enemies, her bomb is short and deals less damage which allows for more potential graze farming, and the fact that it doesn't kill a full-health UFO is just an icing on the cake. Funny as it is, she's not a bottom-tier scoring character (though of course it won't be possible to reach the effectiveness of M-A and S-B).

That Sodium stuff about Marisa-B's spread not being useful in SA is rather funny, btw.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: jisakujien on September 21, 2009, 12:01:30 AM
(http://imgur.com/qX4SG.png)

Same order as the first one, I had the wrong screenshot for rBf where the bar had not refilled yet.

(http://imgur.com/AOWRi.png)

Same order, last card of stage 3.
rAu has 3 bullets missing.
mBu has the bottom left option completely missing.
sBu has 2 frogs missing.

(http://imgur.com/WW7Iw.png)

Nue's last card, all focused because doing this is incredibly boring even at the insane speed I have it running at. 

mB does good damage in these tests but they are misleading as you cannot actually do that much damage in real play.  Focused you have to be incredibly close and for unfocused you have to be inside of the boss.  Basically, for everyone but sB you are going to do the most damage with whomever you can manage to hit with the most as the differences are pretty insignificant.  sB's damage is exceptional, but even focused you need to be pretty close (though not as bad as mB).



Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Serela on September 21, 2009, 01:11:44 AM
shottype damage picturz
-Not going to torture everyone with a giant quote-

Now THIS is informative <3

I like ranting to myself about things all the time, so this time I typed it down for anyone who cares.


ReimuA vs. MarisaA
I'm a little surprised at how close the damage difference is. Yay.
Reimu:Smaller hitbox, Slightly more damage, Bomb is a little stronger and doesn't slow you down as much
Marisa:Slightly faster unfocus, Penetration, Bigger graze hitbox(?)

SanaeA vs. ReimuB

SanaeA:Slightly more damage, higher percentage of damage done by homing
Reimu:Omnidirection homing, all amulets attack same target, slightly stronger bomb

Its nice to know SanaeA does about the same damage focused and unfocused. You can use her slower unfocus snakes to sneak a smidgen more damage in by using it when you can't hit/damage anything.

MarisaB's far focus damage is supposed to be about as strong as SanaeA, and SanaeB far focus is supposed to be -slightly- stronger then MarisaA. The information wasn't tested in this, but from the previous tests, this should be vaugely correct.

Also, SanaeB seems a good bit better then Marisa&ReimuA if your just trying to 1cc the game/extra, since its nearly/is stronger then those, with spread added on... how unfair. But, to each his own. Reimu has smaller hitbox and a little more power, Marisa has other random stuff. It just seems like spread>those things.

Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Sen on September 21, 2009, 03:02:36 AM
So, does anyone know how to get the most power out of SanaeB when she's at 2.00-2.99? I'm having a ton of trouble killing enemies in early Stage 2 fast enough to get the UFOs I need...the problem is that the enemies I need to kill have small enough hitboxes that, at 2.00 power and focusing, only Sanae's basic shot will hit them; the frogs just barely miss. Unfocused, I can't get any frogs to hit at all. :\

Any help with this?
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Hawk on September 21, 2009, 03:19:15 AM
I haven't tested this thoroughly, but I'm pretty sure SanaeB's ravioli does more damage unfocused, so it's more efficient to kill single, small hitbox enemies unfocused until at least 3 power, and maybe until 4.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: Be Pok U (1998 burst style) on September 25, 2009, 06:16:55 AM
I don't know, but aren't the rate of frogs coming from Sanae's flank higher when unfocused? even if they do travel slower, you'd pretty much have an easy time spamming it left and right for full coverage. Not even sure if there's much of a power difference between 3-4 power focused since 3 power is the only time Sanae shoots 3 frogs directly ahead when but 4  shoots faster?.

On Marisa though, I still want to say both options are bad A&B.
Even if A has penetration, master spark's speed penalty makes it such a pain (same speed as ufos) to utilize any ufo heavy spots. Even Reimu A moves faster during her bomb.

Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: LHCling on September 25, 2009, 06:26:31 AM
I don't know, but aren't the rate of frogs coming from Sanae's flank higher when unfocused?
No. The speed of the frogs are different, which makes the distance between each frog fired larger.

On Marisa though, I still want to say both options are bad A&B.
Even if A has penetration, master spark's speed penalty makes it such a pain (same speed as ufos) to utilize any ufo heavy spots. Even Reimu A moves faster during her bomb.
When used properly, Master Spark can (yes, you heard me) be used to score (via graze or other) / chain UFOs. ReimuA's bomb doesn't cover a wide range. This doesn't allow you to do things such as receive the "Hidden" UFO in Stage 2.

MarisaB is for the skillful. MarisaB requires you to learn a different play style in order to be played efficiently.
Title: Re: UFO: Shottype discussion of our heroines.
Post by: jisakujien on September 25, 2009, 12:12:45 PM
(http://imgur.com/IqROn.png)

I wanted to get exact card life values from memory for bomb tests, but I ended up finding random other things along the way. One such thing is the hit detection function... so instead of just being always invulnerable I can just make the bullet miss, which led to doing the 飛鉢「伝説の飛空円盤」 tests over again so you don't have to count pixels on the bar.
This card has 7200 'life' but I cannot remember if bullets do 7(?) times more damage or it is 1/7th damage when you are invulnerable. 

order is the same as usual, extreme close range, only mAf has any of the shot missing, etc