Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: CyberAngel on April 13, 2014, 08:33:03 PM
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I've always been puzzled by this question. Why do people who actually like PC-98 characters prefer them over Windows-era ones? The former are barely developed compared to the latter, and for most of them there are always a few of the latter that can be considered similar, be it in appearance, personality or spirit. So why people may prefer them? About the only exception I can personally understand is with people who play PC-98 games seriously, but they're not the only ones, right? I'd love for such people to answer my question.
Now, don't bother with long descriptions, nobody likes waifu talk, you won't convince me anyway, but I'd like to see your point of view clearly, so keep it short. Just a few lines are enough, say a few general points why you like the character and why you prefer them over Windows ones that may be similar. This is just a small inquiry about people's fandom for my own curiosity, so take it easy (but seriously).
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Most of the PC-98 characters are extremely boring. Save for a few exceptions: Mima, Shinki, Yumeko... and... yeah.
I mean, there are people that are crazy about Mugetsu and Gengetsu, but what's so great about them? I don't even know why the heroine went to that "Dream World" to fight them. And they apparently fought for no reason too. It was a completely pointless fight against characters with absolutely no personality.
Also, what about Orange? She was just a random Youkai passing by, and the heroine beated her up because she... was a youkai. Pretty much a nobody.
Or Louise? She is a Stage 2 boss. But what could be said about her? That she keeps her eyes closed most of the time? Then what else? zero character development if you ask me.
So I agree with you here, I also can't understand why people love those characters so much, and don't even get me started on the HRtP cast, as they don't even exchange dialogue with Reimu whatsoever. (Sorry for making this somewhat long, but I just could not make it shorter).
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Hey.
I like PC-98 characters.
And I still prefer the Windows ones.
I just like to spread the love. SPREAD THE LOVE.
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Touhou characters in general are "barely developed" and have a similar "appearance, personality, spirit" compared to most video game casts. That's a big part of why there's so much fan created works on them, because of everything ZUN doesn't spell out for us.
So, in a sense, the PC-98 characters could be considered more "Touhou" than the Windows ones. More mysterious, more potential for interpretation. You can think of Orange however you like, whereas with Nitori, (who canonically hates religion and has shirikodama that were fatally removed from hundreds of humans) you're a bit constrained.
(Not that I prefer all the PC-98s but I see why someone would)
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I heavily disagree. While there is much room for interpretation on how characters behave and interact with others, the appeal of Touhou for fanworks has never been emptiness of the characters (and I would very much argue that most characters are quite well-developed by any standard). Malleability, sure, but just removing more and more aspects of a character in order for other people to fill it in is not how this works. Being able to just make everything up shouldn't fool anyone, and doesn't. You can think of Orange however you like, and that's exactly why she has little appeal as a character.
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If they had been released on the windows platform do you really think things would be the same? Do you really think that they would be undeveloped if they had been included in the perfect memento in strict sense like all the windows characters were?
It isn't about what they are not - it's about what they could have been. It's about what they should be! The aki sisters became popular because they were unpopular but the PC-98 characters have been unpopular for years and so very little people care. The problem is that people forget about them deliberately. People have tried to cast them out of existence by deliberately leaving them out of doujins and that infuriates me. Even Zun himself has contributed to this controversy by saying something ambiguous that lead people to believe that they were no longer canon - this was later disproved though.
Mima is a popular character but despite her popularity I look on danbooru and find that she has 1.1k pictures - which seems quite a lot. Yoshika Miyako has 2k and she's been going for 15 years less than Mima and has been in 4 less games than Mima. Mima is a brilliant character and I'm not putting down Yoshika but Mima was one of the biggest characters in touhou from game 1 to game 5. How can the main Villian of the 2nd game, playable character in the 3rd and 5th games and the mentor of 1 of the main characters in the Touhou series possibly have less popularity than most new characters. The only thing stopping her is the mere fact that she didn't appear in any of the critical windows games. I find that unfair.
Shinki hasn't been forgotten about either. Zun composed a new theme for her a while back but she has only 1.2k pictures.
Maybe Pictures on Danbooru aren't the best sources but even the Touhou popularity polls show that the only boss of a level who is below a PC-98 character in the 2014 poll is Letty Whiterock. Mima has way more character development than Letty - no offence to Letty. Letty's popularity in the fandom is almost built on her being some sort of motherly figure to Cirno when there is more in canon to suggest that the don't like each other. How can you say that the fandom don't make stuff up to make the character popular when we have this going on? Orange could've been another Letty but, because she wasn't in the windows games, she's considered nowhere near her level.
What they don't have - the fandom would built. The main reason we have so many characters well developed like this is because only the windows games got included in the symposium and the perfect memento. The PC-98 era had great character, and some who should have been great, but they just go on ignored.
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The japanese fandom doesn't ignore the PC-98 characters, most people there either never heard of them or know how they look but know nothing else about them.
The vast majority of all PC-98 owners after 1995 were officer workers and college/university students who are soon going to turn 40 and are too busy in life to contribute to the fandom. Most of the current japanese PC-98 touhou fandom are people who saw the characters in early fangames such as Touhou Soccer.
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Does the second poster have to sound, like, so antagonistic?
I can say the same for nameless characters like Daiyousei, Koakuma (if that is still not considered her name), and Tokiko. If people can give lots of love and attention to those three underdeveloped characters, why can't they love the PC-98 ones as well?
Anyway , fandom contributing to coming up with things for them is a reason that made them lovable. While I do prefer canon portrayals more, there's really not much you can get out of the PC-98 ones, so people's own creative inputs are probably the best way to make them stand out more for me. I'm fine with such if the creative inputs don't twist them to the point where they are nothing like their canon portrayals, even if there is little to begin with.
Rikako, for example, is a powerful magic user who prefers using science to explain and solve things. Nitori specializes in science as well, but she doesn't object to using magic. The former is sort of against magic, so having a character who wants science to dominate everything in a place full of magical stuff is a recipe for great story ideas.
Character design is a plus for me too. Take YuugenMagan for example: her design implies that the gathering point of the trails of electricity is in the shape of a human. The idea of an intangible being with a human appearance or a person with a potentially intangible body intrigues me, so to me, YuugenMagan is a pretty interesting character with potential to be portrayed and used in amazing ways.
My favorite PC-98 character is Mai, BTW, and it's thanks to the artist Hemogurobin A1C's design for her.
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Anyway , fandom contributing to coming up with things for them is a reason that made them lovable. While I do prefer canon portrayals more, there's really not much you can get out of the PC-98 ones, so people's own creative inputs is probably the best way to make them stand out more for me. I'm fine with such if the creative inputs don't twist them to the point they are nothing like their canon portrayals, even if there is little to begin with.
I can say the same for nameless characters like Daiyousei, Koakuma (if that is still not considered her name), and Tokiko. If people can give lots of love and attention to those three underdeveloped characters, why can't they love the PC-98 ones?
I flipped the paragraphs here, but I think you somewhat answer yourself here. There is very little difference between Koakuma and Daiyousei, and various PC-98 characters, if we're talking about the raw character material that they personally have to work with. The primary difference that sets them apart is that Koakuma and Daiyousei can be fundamentally tied to characters and settings that are already established, and this by itself gives the ability for the fandom to be able to produce consistent characterizations that then flesh out the characters and allow them to be used fittingly in any derivative works. It's the very reason Cirno is paired with Letty and Daiyousei, and why Momiji is paired with Aya, despite not having been related in-story whatsoever; they're just in the same stage location. If Elly suddenly reappeared in the same context as Yuuka, you bet you'd find works putting them together again, but as LLS has been shoved aside in favor of Yuuka's current residence, you won't commonly see that. Nameless kappa aren't fleshed-out characters whatsoever, but we know they exist and work with the current universe. That is what sets them apart.
For the most part, the characters in the PC-98 series are compartmentalized within their own games. There are generally no solid relations you can make from those characters to any current characters or settings, and the ones that do, such as Mima or Genji or whatever, simply don't appear anymore and can't be easily used. If ZUN isn't going to use any of the characters, the only ones that can actually affect what the fans will put out, are the fans themselves. So the PC-98 characters not appearing in more derivative works, where other minor characters aren't, is entirely a decision promoted by the fanbase altogether.
If they had been released on the windows platform do you really think things would be the same? Do you really think that they would be undeveloped if they had been included in the perfect memento in strict sense like all the windows characters were?
See, this is the problem. This isn't strictly about whether or not they were released on the Windows platform, or whether they were included in a book, or whether they're developed characters or not. This is about ZUN not giving much thought as to what the Touhou universe was supposed to be like, prior to the Windows series. Little thought into how different settings and characters mesh together, little thought into how his world works. Inclusion into a Windows game or in a book would show that he's thought about the characters enough to say that they have a place in the current Gensokyo, but that likely won't happen unless they're repurposed in some way, just as Alice and Yuuka were. The fans just react to what the current Gensokyo is like; nothing more, nothing less. As said above, it's entirely the fans' decisions as to whether or not the old characters are put into fanworks. This can hardly be considered "unfair". Medicine has fewer pictures on Pixiv than Mima does, and Tokiko has even fewer. These are characters we know exist in the current Gensokyo, but there isn't enough way for them to become incorporated into fan material. The characters survive by virtue of how well they mesh with everything else.
The fans do not exist as machines to meld characters that don't work into characters that do work -- they take what already works, and work it.
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I flipped the paragraphs here, but I think you somewhat answer yourself here. There is very little difference between Koakuma and Daiyousei, and various PC-98 characters, if we're talking about the raw character material that they personally have to work with. The primary difference that sets them apart is that Koakuma and Daiyousei can be fundamentally tied to characters and settings that are already established, and this by itself gives the ability for the fandom to be able to produce consistent characterizations that then flesh out the characters and allow them to be used fittingly in any derivative works. It's the very reason Cirno is paired with Letty and Daiyousei, and why Momiji is paired with Aya, despite not having been related in-story whatsoever; they're just in the same stage location. If Elly suddenly reappeared in the same context as Yuuka, you bet you'd find works putting them together again, but as LLS has been shoved aside in favor of Yuuka's current residence, you won't commonly see that. Nameless kappa aren't fleshed-out characters whatsoever, but we know they exist and work with the current universe. That is what sets them apart.
For the most part, the characters in the PC-98 series are compartmentalized within their own games. There are generally no solid relations you can make from those characters to any current characters or settings, and the ones that do, such as Mima or Genji or whatever, simply don't appear anymore and can't be easily used. If ZUN isn't going to use any of the characters, the only ones that can actually affect what the fans will put out, are the fans themselves. So the PC-98 characters not appearing in more derivative works, where other minor characters aren't, is entirely a decision promoted by the fanbase altogether.
So you agree that Daiyousei and Koakuma are basically "PC-98 characters" who only got lots of attention due to their connections to Windows characters and also being Windows characters themselves (if you did bring this up), right?
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As Drake already explained things very comprehensively, I think I have little else to offer. But I could also add that perhaps we, the western, are more aware of the PC-98's because we have a very extensive Touhou wiki covering information about them and pointing out all of the canon games since HRtP right on the main page. I don't even know if the Japanese have a Touhou wiki similar to ours as well (but I do know they have a scoreboard for replays).
The fact the Japanese aren't willing to sail the seven cyber seas as much as us (aka: play the games via emulators), also makes things even more difficult to give those PC-98's enough attention. A major part of the problem is that they really don't even know about the existence of those characters to begin with. But they can easily get physical copies of the windows games, get to know their respective characters and make derivatives about them.
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So you agree that Daiyousei and Koakuma are basically "PC-98 characters" who only got lots of attention due to their connections to Windows characters and also being Windows characters themselves (if you did bring this up), right?
It's oversimplifying to say they've only become popular "because" they're in Windows games, as if the very inclusion of a character in the current series is what gives them some sort of stamp of approval to make fanworks of them. If you want to say that several PC-98 characters have a better-developed canon personality and whatnot than some nameless Windows characters, then of course that's true.
But you're trying to ask "why can't PC-98 characters be as popular if it's the fandom that makes the character anyways", which I think is a very loaded question to ask. While you might think it's arbitrary for a character to only become relevant because they're alongside another character, consider that the very act of having one nameless character show up with another character, is a defining feature for that nameless character. Daiyousei didn't profit from this much, but Koakuma being in the SDM library, where really nobody else is besides Patchouli, very easily turns her character into an assistant or familiar of sorts. The inclusion of Momiji before Aya gave an easy relationship between the two and was a sort of foundation for the later expansion of the tengu society, even if ZUN later rejected that Momiji and Aya were buddy-buddy. Putting the characters in these locations is itself a form of worldbuilding that the PC-98 characters can't do without ZUN explicitly bringing them back.
Without a way to get "in", you can't expect fans to just toss PC-98 characters into Gensokyo and make something up for them just because they were characters before, and have this actually take off somewhere. Elly is sometimes still portrayed with Yuuka, for example, but this isn't any sort of popular concept because there's nothing there.
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You guys make really good points. Most of PC-98 characters I really like are the ones that are the most well-developed and have strong relationships with other characters, like Mima and Shinki. If they're at least connected to other PC-98s that's usually enough for me (Yumemi & Chiyuri, Mai and Yuki).
But when characters come back to Windows, they end up being way more interesting than their PC-98 incarnations. That right there makes the quality gap kind of hard to deny. louise is still awesome though i dont care
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But you're trying to ask "why can't PC-98 characters be as popular if it's the fandom that makes the character anyways", which I think is a very loaded question to ask.
Was I?
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Well here, for one.
I can say the same for nameless characters like Daiyousei, Koakuma (if that is still not considered her name), and Tokiko. If people can give lots of love and attention to those three underdeveloped characters, why can't they love the PC-98 ones as well?
Paying attention specifically to the undeveloped characters really suggests you figured that they were just given life from the fandom, and would argue that because they were underdeveloped, and some PC-98 characters were underdeveloped, that the fandom could just as easily give new life to the PC-98 characters. Later saying "So you agree that Daiyousei and Koakuma are basically 'PC-98 characters' who only got lots of attention due to X" further suggests that this was what you were trying to do, so I wanted to snip that line of thinking. It's loaded because it assumes that the nameless characters introduced in the Windows series are on similar ground to PC-98 characters for content creation, when they aren't.
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Wow. Not exactly what I had in mind for this topic (I was looking for stuff like game2011's Rikako example, even though I could debate that what was said can also apply to Nitori with some liberties), but the discussion looks pretty interesting nonetheless.
First things first, pet peeve on canonicity. I keep being amused how people take ZUN's latest statement as unquestionable proof that PC-98 is canon, even though it meant nothing of the sort, and are quick to brush off his earlier statements. However, if you take all that he said on the matter into account, his view on it becomes pretty clear. The fact that he feels he can't just bring a character from that era indicates that there is indeed a divide between PC-98 and Windows works. He pretty much said you can just ignore PC-98 stuff. His latest statement only confirms that if you really want to bring two together, you can do that with some retconning. So let's not discuss the canonicity any further here, it's still a grey area, so believe what you want, but let others do the same.
I think I should explain my point of view on PC-98 stuff. You see, when I started exploring Touhou, PC-98 works gave off a strong feeling of "sketchbook material". Be it story, characters or gameplay, everything felt more like a bunch of ideas made in broad strokes. Which they were, given these were ZUN's university projects. But more than that, a lot of stuff was reused in Windows works, purposefully or not. That includes characters. Of course, there are ones that are unique enough. But I've noticed that a lot of traces of less popular ones can be found in Windows-era characters. One of the most obvious examples - Yumeko, who is just Sakuya but much less developed and without time abilities. My question is about characters like these, who may feel redundant since they essentially exist in Windows canon already, just under a different name or as a few different characters, all of which are developed even better. And as a bonus question to those who want to meld PC-98 canon with Windows one: why do you want to do that? Not as in "on what basis you want to do that", but "why did you even think of doing that". I mean, imagine, would you want anyone to try to fit your early works, which you did when you had no experience, into a fully formed canon you've made later without thinking about those early works? ...Sorry if something from this paragraph sounds wrong, but these are my thoughts on the matter.
Oh, I guess I can add being a nearly clean slate for fanfic writers to use as an easily understandable reason to prefer PC-98 characters too. But keep in mind that people generally like well-developed characters more. Otherwise there would be little point to build up those underdeveloped characters, now would there? And I agree with Drake fully, (Windows-era) Touhou characters are among the most developed ones I've seen. The amount of detail even minor bosses tend to get is quite impressive and makes sure they're highly likable.
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There could be any number of reasons why someone prefers PC-98 characters to Windows era ones, and that difference has little to do with character development.
There exists in every media a certain fanbase that will always express a love for the early days over the current state of affairs. Take hip-hop for example. Today's rap can employ complex instrumentation, flow, rhyme schemes and ideas; rap of the early 80s was more like, a drum machine, a turntable to scratch on, and a couple of MCs whose rhymes were pretty simple. Yet you will meet lovers of early hip-hop who not only insist they love early crews like UTFO; they will insist they are better than what's come out today. Even if most of us can compare early and current hip-hop and see a lot more development and layers of composition today than there used to be.
This is a phenomenon I call "orthodoxing" - not only holding to the original form of a media, or the early attempts from an artist, but insisting that these early forms are better than current forms. It differs from nostalgia because you don't have to have even been alive when these early forms were around, and it differs from hipsterism because these early forms aren't necessarily obscure. It's just the romanticization of the original form of a medium. I think because there is this distinct schism between the PC-98 era and the Windows era that is clearly defined that orthodoxing becomes easier.
So no, it has nothing to do with how underdeveloped the characters are. Those characters are always going to attract a certain type, who want to "stick up for" the underdogs of the games, and the most underdog of underdog are the profile-less, backstory-less, characters of the PC-98 era. So there's some overlap on the Venn Diagram of PC-98 fans and People Who Like Blank Characters, but they aren't the same group altogether.
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Touhou characters in general are "barely developed" and have a similar "appearance, personality, spirit" compared to most video game casts. That's a big part of why there's so much fan created works on them, because of everything ZUN doesn't spell out for us.
the omake profile and manga/novel develop many windows character rather wells and give them a district personality IMO.
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I do also have to strongly disagree with the contention that Touhou characters are in general "barely developed" and samey. That is unless we're suddenly ignoring all the written works or something.
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Well here, for one.Paying attention specifically to the undeveloped characters really suggests you figured that they were just given life from the fandom, and would argue that because they were underdeveloped, and some PC-98 characters were underdeveloped, that the fandom could just as easily give new life to the PC-98 characters. Later saying "So you agree that Daiyousei and Koakuma are basically 'PC-98 characters' who only got lots of attention due to X" further suggests that this was what you were trying to do, so I wanted to snip that line of thinking. It's loaded because it assumes that the nameless characters introduced in the Windows series are on similar ground to PC-98 characters for content creation, when they aren't.
Don't know... I don't think I had that in mind when I replied to your post... I just assumed you were saying "nameless Windows characters = PC-98 characters" that I said that. Sorry that/if I misunderstood you...
And as a bonus question to those who want to meld PC-98 canon with Windows one: why do you want to do that? Not as in "on what basis you want to do that", but "why did you even think of doing that". I mean, imagine, would you want anyone to try to fit your early works, which you did when you had no experience, into a fully formed canon you've made later without thinking about those early works? ...Sorry if something from this paragraph sounds wrong, but these are my thoughts on the matter.
First of all, I'm a long-time author on Fanfiction.net, and I've start my own continuity of Touhou there that implements PC-98 characters as if they were there the whole time.
Why did I do that? To imagine how things would be like if ZUN was still using them. I can say for sure that I really do enjoy making them fit into my own continuity, and I even got praised by reviewers for this and made at least one person basically fall in love with a PC-98 character he originally didn't care about.
Would I want someone using something from my earlier works and implementing them into the canon I established later on? I won't object to that. In fact, I might even say it's nice to know that someone remembers the things I made back then! Of course, I'm not proud of my first stories, as they are very, very low quality compared to what I make nowadays, but as long as I do not delete those stories and they are still visible on my profile, then they still happened. Even if my earlier works sometimes embarrass me, I will still answer to people who bring them up properly and not tell them to forget about them.
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Hm, that's pretty interesting, game2011. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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Felt like throwing my two cents in.
As a retro game enthusiast, PC-98 games hold a special place in my heart. Unlike for most people, those were the first Touhou games that I played, and thanks to those games, Touhou became one of my favorite video game series of all time. I like the game design, the memorable characters, the sound of FM, and countless references to old Japanese video games, manga, video game and pop music, classic literature, religion and folklore. It's only natural that many of my favorite Touhou characters are from PC-98 games.
I don't see much point in comparing certain characters to each other (Yumeko/Sakuya, etc), not to mention there are very few examples of that. You can find some interesting similarities, yes, but in the end the characters are completely different. That's like comparing a knight to a ninja or something.
The main question of the topic, I think, is not "why do people who like PC-98 characters prefer them over Windows characters", but "why do people who like Windows games ignore PC-98 games", at least that's how I see it.
For a long time I wondered, where the thought of questionable canon status or similar views come from. I guess, as Bigode said, the fact that even in Japan many people don't know about the PC-98 games (because of limited copies, PC-98 being an old and rare system, and strict Japanese anti-piracy laws), which results in less secondary works focused on the old characters, gives an illusion of questionable canonicity, a false impression which is treated by some people as reality. Add to that rare appearances of old characters in official material, "seizure-rific" graphics and misinformation spread. For me, there is no such things as PC-98 era and Windows era. There's PC-98 games and Windows games. Even if there's no recent appearances of many old characters, there's no explicit official statement saying that PC-98 games are non-canon or form a separate universe. In any case, why would someone want to cut off such a big and important piece of Touhou universe and history is beyond me.
A good comparison example would be the Metal Gear series. I've seen many people who played MGS games saying "ignore the MSX games", or even worse. Personally, I've enjoyed the hell out of the 8-bit MG titles for MSX2 and NES, but found Metal Gear Solid for PS1 quite boring.
To each their own, simple as that.
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The main question of the topic, I think, is not "why do people who like PC-98 characters prefer them over Windows characters", but "why do people who like Windows games ignore PC-98 games", at least that's how I see it.
So, the opposite of what the OP asked, then, is what you see the question as being? Interesting take.
For me, there is no such things as PC-98 era and Windows era. There's PC-98 games and Windows games. Even if there's no recent appearances of many old characters, there's no explicit official statement saying that PC-98 games are non-canon or form a separate universe. In any case, why would someone want to cut off such a big and important piece of Touhou universe and history is beyond me.
ZUN's stance on this - an "explicit official statement" if you will - is that the PC-98 characters are just "somewhere else", and that working them into Touhou now would requiring some retconning. I'm guessing by this the distinction between PC-98 and Windows Touhou, in ZUN's mind anyway, is very clear.
I can appreciate the nostalgic aspect you describe though. The music reminds me of video games I played in the 80s even. But by the same token, MoF was the first Touhou game I ever played, and I wouldn't call it my favorite. It does, though, have a special place in my heart.
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So, the opposite of what the OP asked, then, is what you see the question as being? Interesting take.
ZUN's stance on this - an "explicit official statement" if you will - is that the PC-98 characters are just "somewhere else", and that working them into Touhou now would requiring some retconning. I'm guessing by this the distinction between PC-98 and Windows Touhou, in ZUN's mind anyway, is very clear.
As far as I know he didn't say it required retconning. He said if there is any conflict then retcon the PC-98 but he never said it required it. I'm sure that he said that he just doesn't like to answer the question of what happened to them - which is why Touhou has so many characters. I remember reading somwhere that he said Genji was probably living in the lake at the back of the shrine.
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The main question of the topic, I think, is not "why do people who like PC-98 characters prefer them over Windows characters", but "why do people who like Windows games ignore PC-98 games", at least that's how I see it.
For a long time I wondered, where the thought of questionable canon status or similar views come from. I guess, as Bigode said, the fact that even in Japan many people don't know about the PC-98 games (because of limited copies, PC-98 being an old and rare system, and strict Japanese anti-piracy laws), which results in less secondary works focused on the old characters, gives an illusion of questionable canonicity, a false impression which is treated by some people as reality. Add to that rare appearances of old characters in official material, "seizure-rific" graphics and misinformation spread. For me, there is no such things as PC-98 era and Windows era. There's PC-98 games and Windows games. Even if there's no recent appearances of many old characters, there's no explicit official statement saying that PC-98 games are non-canon or form a separate universe. In any case, why would someone want to cut off such a big and important piece of Touhou universe and history is beyond me.
Looking at it from an entirely practical standpoint, I would guess most people "ignore" the PC-98 games because far more effort goes into the acquisition and setup of them, be it legit or not, than that of the Windows games. The inconvenience is a significant barrier to entry, as it were.
On the subject of the original question, I think said question is fundamentally lacking is that it seems to assume people base how much they like characters mostly, if not only, on their actual characterization. There is plenty more to Touhou characters than who they are (as much as that's obviously an important thing to consider). To draw upon a personal example, I have five distinct reasons why I heavily dislike Koishi, and only one of them has anything to do with her personality/backstory.
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As far as I know he didn't say it required retconning. He said if there is any conflict then retcon the PC-98 but he never said it required it. I'm sure that he said that he just doesn't like to answer the question of what happened to them - which is why Touhou has so many characters. I remember reading somwhere that he said Genji was probably living in the lake at the back of the shrine.
You should probably consider that even saying Genji is just behind the shrine in a pond is essentially the same as saying he isn't likely to actually be mentioned again (but if you want to think he's there then go ahead). This is the same as saying that all the other PC-98 characters are "somewhere" but would be hard to bring back. It's basically the nicest form of retconning, and it's at the point where if he did want to bring a character back, they would have to shove aside a lot of previous details about the character, just as he did with Alice and Yuuka. Again, retconning.
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You should probably consider that even saying Genji is just behind the shrine in a pond is essentially the same as saying he isn't likely to actually be mentioned again (but if you want to think he's there then go ahead). This is the same as saying that all the other PC-98 characters would are "somewhere would be hard to bring back. It's basically the nicest form of retconning, and it's at the point where if he did want to bring a character back, they would have to shove aside a lot of previous details about the character, just as he did with Alice and Yuuka. Again, retconning.
While there are said to be some slight personality changes with Yuuka, what makes Alice's details different? If anything she's just grown up slightly.
Retconning is different from saying that they don't matter anymore. The fact is that they still exist and it annoys me when people act like they don't.
In a way, a lot of characters don't matter anymore but that doesn't stop them being popular. I'll accept the fact that most will never return but at the same time I don't expect Rumia or Medicine to return either. Gensokyo is a very different place from even the 6th game but, in the leap from PC-98, there is a very sudden change in attitude towarda them and huge drop in popularity. A little mention, even if just by name, would improve a character's popularity greatly. If Mima was brought back as a stage 1 midboss, it would greatly increase her popularity. You don't need to destroy everything just to acknowlege a character's existance.
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I think the game creator himself politely declining on the idea is a pretty good indicator of its likelihood. That said, OP's question seems to concern more why those who like PC-98 characters do so when they lack depth. This presumes they lack depth, or that people like 2hus in general for their depth, as Kilga pointed out. The likelihood of a comeback seem like a separate discussion altogether.
I agree with Kilga that character depth is not a feature that attracts most PC-98 fans, nor all Windows era fans for that matter. But I do think a significant portion of the PC-98 fanbase is comprised of folks who underdog it a bit; not touting themselves as "true fans" for liking the original series or whatever, but rather just because it's a series that gets largely overlooked. I personally don't think the technical aspects for getting them to run are that much of a deterrent, but certainly other technical details e.g. fonts and replays, can be a pain in the ass.
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Regarding ZUN's latest statement about PC-98, I read it as saying that the events of PC-98 did happen, but in a sort of contorted way due to later canon contradicting it. Kind of like how the general encounters between superheroes and supervillains in early comic books still happened even if later details or characterizations contradicted the events themselves.
As for the topic at hand...people have said a lot of what I wanted to say. A PC-98 character is only as bland as you think they are. It's true, the canon characterization is lacking in most of PC-98, but to say there's no reason to like them simply because a lot of it is our own personal canon is a little presumptuous. Take what you said before about Yumeko:
One of the most obvious examples - Yumeko, who is just Sakuya but much less developed and without time abilities. My question is about characters like these, who may feel redundant since they essentially exist in Windows canon already, just under a different name or as a few different characters, all of which are developed even better.
To begin with, there's all sorts of reasons to differentiate them. For one thing, the different setting gives an entirely different potential relationship dynamic (serving a high class vampire is a little different from serving a goddess). Also, Yumeko's mannerisms (what little are shown anyway), danmaku, and theme are completely different from Sakuya's and suggest an entirely different sort of person. I developed a lot of my interpretations of PC-98 characters through the personality seen through their danmaku and themes, and from these alone Yumeko's similarities to Sakuya become little more than superficial.
And, as people have said before, a lot of Touhou is fanworks. I don't think many people who enjoy the game for its setting can claim to enjoy it only through the canon material and base their views of characters only on what they do in canon. Therefore I don't think you have much basis to say people have no reason to like PC-98 characters more or less than Windows ones.
But keep in mind that people generally like well-developed characters more. Otherwise there would be little point to build up those underdeveloped characters, now would there?
It's a false assumption that PC-98 fans make the same connections between characters that you do, or that "general" statements apply to the individual case, which is the norm for PC-98 since there's little consistency between people's headcanons. I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but it seems as though you're questioning PC-98 fans why they like characters from that era while nay-saying every potential reason. And that...is silly!
Whew. There, got that out of my system.
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I guess my answer to your question, is that it's Touhou. A lot of things about PC98 are different from Windows games, but that doesn't make them any less cool to me. I'm personally fond of the atmosphere of the PC98 games, with the 8bit music and pixel art. As for the characters, whether or not they're "developed", I don't think it matters. A character could have an incredibly detailed profile about them and people would still go about making headcanons for them. Not just Touhou, anything.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, even though the PC98 games and characters don't have a lot of canon backing, me and other people came up with our own headcanons and stories and grew attached to them.
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I don't think a lot of people who like PC-98 characters actually prefer them over Windows ones. Maybe it just seems that way due to a vocal lot really clamoring for Mima or Shinki's return, but those are two of the very few in PC-98 who actually hold that sway with fans, who constantly come up in who they want to see return, are relatively popular, and receive a decent amount of doujin. But even in Japan I think there are very few who actually played the PC-98 games. You'd be hard pressed to find a lot of PC-98 supporters who actually played through them.
For the most part I think fans just want some of these seemingly cool, enigmatic characters back. And for those who are heavily invested in PC-98 I think part of it is seeing their interest justified and PC-98 acknowledged with a return to official canon.
Myself, it'd be interesting to see a return just because that I want to see how ZUN would handle it, what he might change, etc. I want to see them as they could be. Once you throw out Five Magic Stones, Orange, etc., I think you're actually left with a pretty wide array of interesting characters who could work in modern Touhou.
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On the subject of the original question, I think said question is fundamentally lacking is that it seems to assume people base how much they like characters mostly, if not only, on their actual characterization. There is plenty more to Touhou characters than who they are (as much as that's obviously an important thing to consider).
That said, OP's question seems to concern more why those who like PC-98 characters do so when they lack depth. This presumes they lack depth, or that people like 2hus in general for their depth, as Kilga pointed out.
It's a false assumption that PC-98 fans make the same connections between characters that you do, or that "general" statements apply to the individual case, which is the norm for PC-98 since there's little consistency between people's headcanons. I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but it seems as though you're questioning PC-98 fans why they like characters from that era while nay-saying every potential reason. And that...is silly!
That's the whole reason I'm asking the question, actually. I'm fully aware my understanding may be lacking, but I want to try to expand it. Obviously I can only judge by how or why I like characters myself. For the most part, my preferences are built upon character details I like. Of course, I understand that details alone don't make me like a character, they have to "click" with me just the right way, but still, details are the base for me to do that. That is why I'm cold to PC-98 characters - there just aren't enough details for me to latch on, and whatever there is was, in my opinion, fleshed out in Windows-era works better and just feels redundant as a result. However, I'm fully aware I may be missing something and people may have different reasons, so I want to at least understand them. I mean, I've already noted gameplay and creative freedom, xJeePx's nostalgia and Tengu's "orthodoxing" are valid (if incomprehensible to me in latter case) reasons as well. So if you can provide a better analysis, then by all means do so, I'm very interested. I mean, if you think I don't understand something, how do you expect me to understand it if you don't spell it out? Experience comes forth from such moments, it can't appear out of thin air, you know.
To begin with, there's all sorts of reasons to differentiate them. For one thing, the different setting gives an entirely different potential relationship dynamic (serving a high class vampire is a little different from serving a goddess). Also, Yumeko's mannerisms (what little are shown anyway), danmaku, and theme are completely different from Sakuya's and suggest an entirely different sort of person. I developed a lot of my interpretations of PC-98 characters through the personality seen through their danmaku and themes, and from these alone Yumeko's similarities to Sakuya become little more than superficial.
This is the kind of discussion I expected out of this topic initially, and I'd love to pursue it, if you please. I have to say I disagree, since, while there are differences in obvious details, I get vibes of deep similarities from this case. First, their masters both can be called lords of demons. Devils, if you please. And I came to that conclusion in both cases independently. Second, I find Yumeko's personality to be extremely similar to how Sakuya is in EoSD. The Sakuya we have now may be how Yumeko would turn out if she went through as much character development. Lastly, remember how the background behind Yumeko becomes distorted at the start of her battle? I took that as a sign of space manipulation. So really, I have a strong feeling that everything Yumeko was simply evolved into Sakuya we have now.
For the most part I think fans just want some of these seemingly cool, enigmatic characters back. And for those who are heavily invested in PC-98 I think part of it is seeing their interest justified and PC-98 acknowledged with a return to official canon.
Myself, it'd be interesting to see a return just because that I want to see how ZUN would handle it, what he might change, etc. I want to see them as they could be. Once you throw out Five Magic Stones, Orange, etc., I think you're actually left with a pretty wide array of interesting characters who could work in modern Touhou.
I don't really feel like upsetting you, but I think something must be said here. As was pointed out earlier, ZUN's stance is pretty clear on this - he doesn't want to bring old characters, but he leaves old canon open to reinterpretation coupled with current one for those who want it. While the idea of how he would do it may be interesting, actually waiting for it to happen is fruitless. However, nothing stops you from trying to do that yourself, so your hopes may be better placed in how you can do that on your own. Besides, you seem to have your own ideas that may be different from what everyone else will like (throwing out characters? some "hardcore PC-98 fans" would have your head for that, I'm sure), so instead of wishing for something that may disappoint you if it differs from what you expect, you may be better advised to just do something you'd like yourself. (Relevant quote: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment".)
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I'm not sure what you found incomprehensible about orthodoxing. I mean there's purists all around who stick to the original works of any medium or title. It's not nostalgia or hipsterism; it's just staking your flag on the earliest outputs. Thought this was a pretty common thing. I see it all through the PC-98 fanbase anyway
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I don't really feel like upsetting you, but I think something must be said here. As was pointed out earlier, ZUN's stance is pretty clear on this - he doesn't want to bring old characters, but he leaves old canon open to reinterpretation coupled with current one for those who want it. While the idea of how he would do it may be interesting, actually waiting for it to happen is fruitless. However, nothing stops you from trying to do that yourself, so your hopes may be better placed in how you can do that on your own. Besides, you seem to have your own ideas that may be different from what everyone else will like (throwing out characters? some "hardcore PC-98 fans" would have your head for that, I'm sure), so instead of wishing for something that may disappoint you if it differs from what you expect, you may be better advised to just do something you'd like yourself. (Relevant quote: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment".)
There's been a miscommunication here. I know what he's said about it before. As much as I would like something else to happen with PC-98, I'm not actually waiting and holding out hope for him to do so and never said that I was. I'm long past that phase as a fan. Especially when he's already acknowledged enough about it for my taste in UFO. I really am much more interested in everything new that ZUN does than he could do by revisiting anything old. He's shown no interest in living in or revisiting much of the past, so neither do I or would ever expect him to.
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This is the kind of discussion I expected out of this topic initially, and I'd love to pursue it, if you please.
It's pretty clear you aren't actually interested in pursuing this topic, given how you've consistently brushed off every PC-98 fans' opinions rather than try and understand them. Especially given what you said just after this:
I have to say I disagree, since, while there are differences in obvious details, I get vibes of deep similarities from this case. First, their masters both can be called lords of demons. Devils, if you please. And I came to that conclusion in both cases independently. Second, I find Yumeko's personality to be extremely similar to how Sakuya is in EoSD. The Sakuya we have now may be how Yumeko would turn out if she went through as much character development. Lastly, remember how the background behind Yumeko becomes distorted at the start of her battle? I took that as a sign of space manipulation. So really, I have a strong feeling that everything Yumeko was simply evolved into Sakuya we have now.
So basically all of what I said amounted to something for you to "disprove." It's fine if you want to rely only on canon details, but wasn't the whole reason you made this thread to learn other people's perspectives? You're not going to get anywhere if all you do is say "I don't agree with that viewpoint," as though you're just contrasting other's viewpoints with your own. You're certainly not going to learn anything new like that, and as long as that's how you approach this thread I'm not sure others will be that interested in telling you more either.
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I'm not sure what you found incomprehensible about orthodoxing. I mean there's purists all around who stick to the original works of any medium or title. It's not nostalgia or hipsterism; it's just staking your flag on the earliest outputs. Thought this was a pretty common thing. I see it all through the PC-98 fanbase anyway
I just don't understand what kind of an appeal it might even have. Gameplay, nostalgia or creative freedom I can relate to. But liking first works for just being first? It's not an inherently positive or negative thing. Whether I like something or not does not depend on when it came out. The only reason I can think of is just as a hipsterism with a few details tweaked, but is it really like that or not? I can't comprehend it enough to tell.
It's pretty clear you aren't actually interested in pursuing this topic, given how you've consistently brushed off every PC-98 fans' opinions rather than try and understand them. Especially given what you said just after this:
So basically all of what I said amounted to something for you to "disprove." It's fine if you want to rely only on canon details, but wasn't the whole reason you made this thread to learn other people's perspectives? You're not going to get anywhere if all you do is say "I don't agree with that viewpoint," as though you're just contrasting other's viewpoints with your own. You're certainly not going to learn anything new like that, and as long as that's how you approach this thread I'm not sure others will be that interested in telling you more either.
What? No, no, you're misinterpreting me heavily. I'm not trying to disprove you or anything, I understand and respect your opinion. It's just that it's so different from mine that I want to know why can there be such big differences. So I just voiced how my opinion differs from yours, hoping that you might comment on what I think about her from your point of view, or maybe point out something I may be missing that prevents me from seeing things your way. Of course, if you can't or don't want to say anything, I don't force you. It's just that I've jumped in with a bit too much enthusiasm, so please don't take things more negatively than they really are.
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But see, you aren't approaching this topic with an open mind. If you actually want to learn anything about other people's views, you have to rely on more than simply what people tell you. You have to try and meet them halfway, actually THINK about what they are saying rather than internalizing their words alone. Even as you're asking for more information, you're talking about it as though you won't read any deeper into what I tell you than what I say (which is the reason you're asking for more information in the first place). You'll never understand other people's views like that, and the average person would lose patience long before any understanding would be reached. So I say if you really want to learn more about the views of the PC-98 fans you've seen up until now, you should go back and actually consider what they've said and think about it.
Kinda getting off topic I know, but it's a good skill to learn, and would make this thread a lot less of a headache for everyone involved.
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Or maybe it's you not willing to understand the one you talk with? Didn't I say I understood your opinion? I could tell where your ideas came from well enough without you spelling it out. Why do you think I won't read deeper into what you'll say? I only need it as something to use as a direction to understand things further, I can figure out the rest on my own. It seems your own advice isn't working for you, because you're assuming things about me that are just plain false. Text may be an imperfect information media, but at least it's reliable. I found that it's better to only trust what is spelled out rather than assuming something unspoken that you can't really guarantee to be true.
So please, let's keep talking on topic, I'm interested to hear what you can say.
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I just don't understand what kind of an appeal it might even have. Gameplay, nostalgia or creative freedom I can relate to. But liking first works for just being first? It's not an inherently positive or negative thing. Whether I like something or not does not depend on when it came out.
OK, let me give you another example: people who adhere to the Orthodox Church. Because it's the oldest, closest to the original, and therefore the "best" church. Or people who say that the original purveyors of rock 'n' roll had all the talent - even if this is being said by someone who wasn't even born at this time.
It is in short believing the first incarnation of a thing is the best. It has nothing necessarily to do with nostalgia or hipsterism. If this is a completely alien concept to you I'm a more than a little surprised. But I've personally seen quite a bit of it among PC-98 fans.
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I found that it's better to only trust what is spelled out rather than assuming something unspoken that you can't really guarantee to be true.
It's good not to assume, but you have to at least try and reach out to other people's perspectives, and that involves making assumptions. People will be far more willing to correct your misreading of what they say than explain every last detail to you, because it'd show them that despite not getting it right, you are at least actively trying to see their perspective. Because let me tell you, it sure feels like the thread is almost an inquisition against being a PC-98 fan the way our opinions are being called into question whenever we give them. >_> Don't tell me that's not what you intended, because I know it isn't, but that's sure what it feels like, and it makes me a lot less willing to explain my views.
Anyway, getting off my soapbox and answering your question, it's what I said before. You can infer a lot of personality from a character simply through their theme. To continue using Yumeko as an example, I got the impression from Doll of Misery that she has a detached view of life, as though she sees herself - as the song suggests - like a doll who serves her employer, mother, and creator. The second half of the song evokes the feel of a cold, ruthless killer, which certainly is reflected by her fast, efficient, and utterly brutal danmaku (if you don't know, Yumeko is considered by many to be one of the hardest bosses in the series on lunatic).
From just those base assumptions, a more complex personality and story can be crafted for her. At that point it's more up to your own creativity and interest in the character, but if I were to explain it, it'd be that the scant canon details serve as a launching point to create your own character. The fact that there is not a large fanbase or established fanon means there is less to contradict the character as you see them, and they feel even more personal to you. That, to me at least, is why many of my favorites are PC-98 characters.
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Now let me contribute to the topic a little. Back on the first page I said that most PC-98's are boring, except for a few exceptions. Those two are among them: Ellen and Rika.
Ellen:
Ellen because I think she is rather interesting overall. I mean, she seems to be as "dysfunctional" as Koishi or Seija, because her mind is comparable to a Tabula Rasa. She keeps losing her memories day by day and because of that, her mind is never able to grow mature so she always keeps a childish attitude.
As such, she is the type of person that can't hold a grudge against someone and would be a fun friend to have. But you'd need to keep in touch with her everyday, otherwise she'd forget about you. It sounds more or less like a sort of dementia, now that I think about it.
Rika:
I think of Rika as a sort of "Dr. Wily" from the Touhou series. I mean, she explicitly stated that she created all of the bakebake from the first stage of SoEW, and it's very likely that she created all of the machines surrounding that area too (the ying yang cannons, the midboss tank and those weird things that look like mechanical rats or whatever). Apparently she created them to dominate Reimu's Shrine or something, or even to conquer all of Gensokyo (we don't know for sure due to the lack of information). But either way, this is comparable to how Dr. Wily keeps creating machinery (mainly the Robot Masters) to beat Megaman and take over the world.
Rika also lured Reimu into a trap during the Extra Stage after getting defeated once. She possibly wanted to take revenge and prove that machines are superior to humans, and that they're more than enough to beat the heroine. It's unknown what her goals were with that, though.
I think she would do a great Windows character, but you might argue with me and say that she is nothing but a prototype for Nitori, since that the latter could do everything the former can. But I can prove otherwise, mainly due to a single reason that makes them different. Nitori seems to create machines with good intentions in order to help the technology from Gensokyo evolve and improve the others' lifestyle. Rika seems to be other way around, as in: she creates machines mainly to cause disorder and pursue domination with them.
Something else that puts the two characters apart is how Nitori not only creates machinery, but also has manipulation over water as a plus. Rika apparently has no fighting skills whatsoever and relies on machines entirely in order to fight. Nitori is also affiliated with the Kappa Society, while Rika seems to simply be on her own.
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While there are said to be some slight personality changes with Yuuka, what makes Alice's details different? If anything she's just grown up slightly.
PC-98 Alice was a demon with a playing card motif, who goes out of her way to fight at full strength, is younger-looking than the protagonists and was born in Makai. Windows Alice is a human-turned-magician with a doll motif, who never fights at full strength, is older-looking than the protagonists and is implied to have been born in Bucharest. They're almost nothing alike.
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Okay, I wanted to make a lot more emotional post, but I'm a bit better now so I'll spare you a lot of CAPS LOCK.
What is wrong with you, people? I made an inquiry topic. I planned to interview you here. You know, asking questions, holding a discussion, that kind of thing. But it seems that voicing an opinion that is different from yours is somehow an attack on your opinion around these parts. Or at least as long as it is something about PC-98 stuff. It came to that I'm afraid to say "hey, this PC-98 character is similar to a Windows character this way". Why are you afraid of such comparison? Is it such an armor-piercing fact? It's a cold fact, nothing more. Or maybe you don't like me asking stuff in your face? Well, sorry, this is an interview, I ask questions to get answers. Or give counterarguments to know your opinion on them, that's how discussions work. And comparisons to Windows characters are needed to better flesh out the uniqueness of PC-98 character - you know, the thing why you like this character and not a Windows-era similar one. And in case you missed it (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16700.msg1087347.html#msg1087347), I'm glad to acknowledge your help when I'm done with questions. I'm perfectly fine with you liking PC-98 stuff over Windows stuff, I just want to know the reasons better, hence questions and discussions. But people just assume that any doubt in their opinion is an attack on it.
Well, fine, sometimes my opinions may have been worded poorly, so my apologies to anyone insulted or upset by them. But it seems I approached this thing wrongly from the start. Again, my fault completely, even though I rushed to ask stuff before planning it properly out of sincere curiosity, though I guess sincerity doesn't shine through plain text. But now this thing is a useless mess I don't want to go on with. Well, I had an idea how to do something like this in a much better way for a long time, so MAYBE I'll do it when I feel like it again. But this topic would get in the way, so better to take care of that sooner than later:
Mods, please delete this topic.
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PC-98 Alice was a demon with a playing card motif, who goes out of her way to fight at full strength, is younger-looking than the protagonists and was born in Makai. Windows Alice is a human-turned-magician with a doll motif, who never fights at full strength, is older-looking than the protagonists and is implied to have been born in Bucharest. They're almost nothing alike.
Nothing in MS ever implied Alice was a demon; in fact, UFO stated that some people go to Makai to train their magical powers. Also, my personal theory is that Alice was traumatized after losing at full strength in MS extra and the subsequent humiliation each heroine visited on her (most notably, Mima forces Alice to become her maid), which is why she's afraid of displaying her full power in the Windows series.
Alright, maybe I should clean up my own mess. I wasn't out to get you or make you feel bad when I said the things I did. However, I wanted to let you know that the way you were approaching our answers and asking subsequent questions was not the best way to do so. There's a reason there's whole college courses devoted to how to construct interviews; it's pretty complicated, even on a casual level like a message board. Even though you're hosting the interview, you have to understand your own position as well as that of others, and a whole bunch of other things. A lot of people have derided PC-98 fans as people who "just want Mima back" or "are just posers," and it's something at least some of us feel when we're questioned on our preferences. That doesn't mean you can't ask, but you have to know the right way to ask to get the answers you want. I wanted to try and set that straight, but it seems I overstepped my bounds and for that, I'm sorry.
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Guys, guys! There is no need to be upset. Can't we just all agree that Evil Eye Sigma is the best PC-98 character and move on from there?
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Don't worry, Donut, I'm fully aware this is my own fault, it would happen sooner or later with how uninformed and disorganized I did this. Well, even mistakes give something to learn. I sorta knew about the basic reasons that answer my question, but at least I got confirmation they're valid around here. Still, I plan to do something much more organized (and with me actually contributing in a non-antagonistic way), and this topic would be redundant, so I still kinda don't want to see it, but I'm be fine with just a lock.
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I'm be fine with just a lock.
Are you sure? I don't think this thread is unsalvagable, and Synnae among others have brought up some interesting points that actually answer your question.
Sorry for my part in derailing, but I do like this topic's idea, so if you really want to lock, that's fine, but I think we could also just keep going.
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Yeah, I would be willing to keep going now that I've gotten all that out in the open (let's bury the hatchet on that whole debate) and could keep telling you more. We should keep going, if you want to. I mean, Yumeko is one of the PC-98 characters I don't really like, I could tell you a whole lot more about why I like some others.
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I'm be fine with just a lock.
Yeah, how would I get my two cents in if you locked this thread? :V
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While there are said to be some slight personality changes with Yuuka, what makes Alice's details different? If anything she's just grown up slightly.
She's grown up, lives in a large house in the Forest rather than in Makai and any relation to Makai has been completely forgotten. Pretty much everything about her besides "she has a grimoire" has been changed, just as Yuuka has changed from sleepy mansion in a blood lake to flower lover living in a big garden.
Retconning is different from saying that they don't matter anymore. The fact is that they still exist and it annoys me when people act like they don't.
You see, this is one point where it's very arguable whether or not you can say a character "exists" anymore. Whether or not ZUN says they're still around, the exclusion of the characters from everything is far more telling. It shows that ZUN cannot, or doesn't care to, bring these characters back into modern Gensokyo. Saying that they're "somewhere" holds no meaning besides saying that he hasn't outright rejected their existence completely, and this is a reasonable stance to take. He isn't ever going to say that they don't exist. So the question turns to, what do you even mean by "exist"? Are they available for fans to create works with if they want? Can they mesh with other characters and settings if the author wants? Sure. Are they canonically present in modern Gensokyo? I would say a resounding no. There is no evidence of their existence, exactly as there's no evidence that any nobusuma (for example) exist in Gensokyo. They could, and for anyone who wants to include them in fanworks of Touhou, then they can go right ahead. But as is made extremely obvious from the manga in particular, ZUN doesn't normally abandon characters and will introduce them in various places almost obsessively. He can keep repeating that PC-98 characters "exist" every time he's asked, but that answer is empty. His expression that they would be difficult to bring back is more reflective of his actual thoughts. While you might not technically call this a retcon, it's the closest to one that ZUN will ever get.
In a way, a lot of characters don't matter anymore but that doesn't stop them being popular. I'll accept the fact that most will never return but at the same time I don't expect Rumia or Medicine to return either. Gensokyo is a very different place from even the 6th game but, in the leap from PC-98, there is a very sudden change in attitude towarda them and huge drop in popularity.
Refer to my previous wallposts about how this has little to do with the move from PC-98 itself.
Also, Rumia was present in OSP chapter 12 and more recently in HM as a background character. Medicine was also in HM.
A little mention, even if just by name, would improve a character's popularity greatly. If Mima was brought back as a stage 1 midboss, it would greatly increase her popularity. You don't need to destroy everything just to acknowlege a character's existance.
This is a good point to mention, since for many people (probably non-writers, really) this might seem like a natural and easy thing to do. Like, if Mima popped up in HM as a background character, then wow, suddenly she would just exist and everything would be peachy. ZUN, and I'd say most writers seriously invested in their work... don't work this way. Including a character somewhere just for the sake of it is fickle and doesn't make sense. Bringing in a character means that they have their place, that they are a piece of the pie that is Gensokyo and mesh with it. You have fans who make works of characters who are all connected together by some means, and the characters that are "unpopular" aren't showcased as much, and the works that they're in might be solo works. Now ZUN will go back and show these characters somewhere on purpose. But on the flip side, unlike various fans, ZUN isn't going to deliberately shove in something that he feels doesn't work well, and he's a lot more picky and solid about this than the fans are. When you say you don't need to destroy everything just to acknowledge a character's existence, you're sort of highlighting the problem: acknowledging the character's existence does interfere with things. While superficially it might be "easy", when you get down to it, it's really anything but easy.
hi this has nothing to do with the thread's main question anymore
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I think Tengukami's thread (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16167.0.html) is a good example of what nintendonut was saying about interpreting PC-98 Touhou. Regardless of whether or not ZUN intended to have all this subtle development in the games or not, if you can find it, then for you it is there - so why not enjoy it?
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Well, it seems like some discussion can still go on here, so fine, let this topic be. It's just that I don't want to go on with it because it's basically me saying "hey, let's talk about your favourite PC-98 characters" and just leaving everything up to everyone else. The thing I'm planning is far more organized and goes over all characters, so it'll be easier to talk about such stuff. So I'd rather ask everyone to wait with the more detailed talk about characters until I make the thing. Besides, I DO need to brush up on what is known about them, so if I'm going to think about PC-98 stuff, I'd rather think in that project's direction.
but I'm be fine
Good God, did I really write this? Never post while on the verge of falling asleep.
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...just as Yuuka has changed from sleepy mansion in a blood lake to flower lover living in a big garden.
Yuuka hasn't really changed at all. She had a thing for flowers in mystic square, and it became really obvious in Kioh Gyoku. Her personality doesn't seem to have changed much. The only thing that's different is her living space.
She's grown up, lives in a large house in the Forest rather than in Makai and any relation to Makai has been completely forgotten. Pretty much everything about her besides "she has a grimoire" has been changed
The thing about Alice. It bothers me so much. Where does is it say Alice was born a human? The only place I can find that is in PMiSS. But Akyuu has been wrong in the past and has put speculation in her books. Furthermore, Alice's official profile in IaMP says she looks almost identical to a human so it's very much possible that Akyuu made a mistake. And if Akyuu is wrong about her race, what has changed between PC-98 and Windows besides age (which can be attributed to... aging) and residency? (That's not a rhetorical question. I don't think anything else has changed, but I don't know).
I totally agree with you in that ZUN's actions speak louder than his words. If he hasn't shown PC-98 characters by this point, not even in spinoffs or as background characters, it's better to treat them as if they don't exist in Windows canon. But on the other hand if ZUN intends to eventually bring back characters like Yuuka or Alice (debateably), pretending PC-98 doesn't exist is like pretending the EoSD-PoFV don't exist just because they aren't relevant to the current arc.
...ahem...
My opinion of a character is usually based more on fanon and my own headcanons than anything official. That being said, I just find PC-98 characters give me more to think about. Like "Why is Chiyuri a sailor? What is Elly supposed to be? Is that Louise's ghost or a random enemy?". They still have plenty of legitimate info on them, but there's more I can decide for myself. If I have a question about a windows character I can look it up most of the time,
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Yuuka hasn't really changed at all. She had a thing for flowers in mystic square, and it became really obvious in Kioh Gyoku. Her personality doesn't seem to have changed much. The only thing that's different is her living space.
I'll take that point. I will note that by Kioh Gyoku, Yuuka is already closer to the Windows series than she is to her PC-98 representation, and I find it likely that ZUN has already thought about how Yuuka fits into Gensokyo as he started to seriously consider Touhou's direction. I also find Yuuka's abode changing, and the abandonment of Mugenkan and Elly etc, to be quite a significant change to her character overall, even if they are not literally her changing.
Where does is it say Alice was born a human? The only place I can find that is in PMiSS. But Akyuu has been wrong in the past and has put speculation in her books.
Such speculation is generally either stated to be her speculation, or are visibly wrong by blatantly contradicting other works. Akyuu being an unreliable narrator isn't enough reason to just abandon what's said; the whole point of PMiSS is to infodump, and if the information provided isn't shown to be incorrect on purpose, then we should take it as valid regardless. Anyways, PMiSS is quite specific on Alice's humanity. The book introduces the distinctions between a born Magician, a human turned Magician, and magician as occupation. It then not only goes to explain Alice is the type that became a Magician through training, but it specifies that Alice has only recently become a Magician. This is supported immediately by noting that Alice still acts as a human does despite not needing to, and this is noted again in IN when she gets sleepy. On top of that it explains that she's friendly and hospitable to humans (and doesn't attack them) because she used to be one herself. This is pretty clear-cut.
Furthermore, Alice's official profile in IaMP says she looks almost identical to a human so it's very much possible that Akyuu made a mistake. And if Akyuu is wrong about her race, what has changed between PC-98 and Windows besides age (which can be attributed to... aging) and residency? (That's not a rhetorical question. I don't think anything else has changed, but I don't know).
Most magicians are said to be very similar to humans. Patchouli is also said to look like a human. Really though, I don't like this trail of supposing that Akyuu is incorrect solely to follow this line of thought. The way I see it, that's starting with a conclusion, then trying to take what has already been established and picking at it until it fits that conclusion.
But on the other hand if ZUN intends to eventually bring back characters like Yuuka or Alice (debateably), pretending PC-98 doesn't exist is like pretending the EoSD-PoFV don't exist just because they aren't relevant to the current arc.
It's more than that, and I've already went into detail about this. They are really not equivalent at all.
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Derail: Kioh Gyoku was developed and released in 2001, when ZUN had started to develop EoSD on his on. The names of her attacks are setting her up as a guest from Gensokyo, while in the PC-98 games, the stage of the story was never properly named, only known as "a land in the east" 東の国.
Level 1: Wind of Budding
Level 2: Land of Peach Blossom Spring
Level 3: Cherry Blossom of Hourai
Bomb: Gensokyo
Source:
http://toho-motoneta.net/index.php?%A4%BD%A4%CE%C2%BE%A5%B2%A1%BC%A5%E0#kiohgyoku
Note:
The Peach Blossom Spring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peach_Blossom_Spring) is the ur-utopia story in East Asia culture.
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I think Tengukami's thread (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,16167.0.html)
is in serious need of a reboot. Good lord I forgot all about that thing.
Also, PC-98 is the tree that falls in the forest where there is no one around to hear it.
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Small thing I forgot to take care of.
OK, let me give you another example: people who adhere to the Orthodox Church. Because it's the oldest, closest to the original, and therefore the "best" church. Or people who say that the original purveyors of rock 'n' roll had all the talent - even if this is being said by someone who wasn't even born at this time.
It is in short believing the first incarnation of a thing is the best. It has nothing necessarily to do with nostalgia or hipsterism. If this is a completely alien concept to you I'm a more than a little surprised. But I've personally seen quite a bit of it among PC-98 fans.
About the closest thing I have to that is a compulsion to play games/listen to music albums/whatever in a chronological order when I start exploring something for the first time. Quality and other factors usually take control of my preferences pretty fast, though.
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Such speculation is generally either stated to be her speculation, or are visibly wrong by blatantly contradicting other works.
Here you're starting with a conclusion, then using that conclusion to prove itself. You're assuming that PC-98 and Windows are not connected. If PC-98 and Windows aren't connected than Akyuu's statement doesn't contradict any other work, so we must assume she's correct, proving that PC-98 and Windiws are not connected. Do you see the problem? I recognize that I just did the same thing in stating Akyuu could be wrong, but you pointed that out to me.
Such speculation is generally either stated to be her speculation, or are visibly wrong by blatantly contradicting other works. Akyuu being an unreliable narrator isn't enough reason to just abandon what's said; the whole point of PMiSS is to infodump, and if the information provided isn't shown to be incorrect on purpose, then we should take it as valid regardless.
I don't mean to suggest that my explanation is the case just that it could be, and that it's more than just a random shot in the dark. The biggest arguement that I've seen against PC-98 and Windows being connected are that PC-98 characters have dissappeared and Alice is a contradiction. I'm just trying to say that it's possible that Alice is not contradictory and that some PC-98 characters have made reappearances.
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Here you're starting with a conclusion, then using that conclusion to prove itself. You're assuming that PC-98 and Windows are not connected. If PC-98 and Windows aren't connected than Akyuu's statement doesn't contradict any other work, so we must assume she's correct, proving that PC-98 and Windiws are not connected.
That conclusion, however, is consistent with what ZUN has said about the connection between their games and the canon.
There are a few contradictions in the story when putting the PC-98 and Windows games side by side, but I would take reference from the latest games to consider what is canon.
Thus, it's quite reasonable to assume that Akyuu is more "correct" than Mystic Square. Personally, I think PC-98 Alice is human so I don't see that big a discrepancy here, but Akyuu's unreliability really isn't a very strong argument.
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That conclusion, however, is consistent with what ZUN has said about the connection between their games and the canon.
Akyuu's unreliability really isn't a very strong argument.
Yes and yes. Questioning Akyuu's credibility gets thrown around a lot, even though when she is playing fast and loose, it is screamingly obvious - whether in her own writing, or with easily verifiable evidence to the contrary, as Drake gave us the broad strokes on.
ZUN has also made it very clear that there is a canon break between PC-98 and Windows. Questioning this point, I think, is unfair to the PC-98 world itself, like it can't stand on its own merits as a whole separate Gensokyo universe, with all its still great cast of characters, settings and yes, even story. I think it's by itself an aspect of Touhou worth exploring, and don't think it's canon quality wrt Windows Touhou even matters.
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Personally, I figured that Alice was a human mage-in-training in a gang of thieves, found Gensokyo with them, murdered them (Well, some of them anyways), finally lost her humanity and became a youkai during that incident, and then "walked towards the exit to paradise (Gensokyo)". After which she reached Makai and became a resident of it. And then Lotus Land Story happened. Eventually Alice returned to Gensokyo for whatever reason and took up residence in that same house where she murdered her friends.
(That's derived speculation from Dolls in Pseudo Paradise (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dolls_in_Pseudo_Paradise/Story) in case you didn't know)
...although then I figured that ZUN decided to mostly forget PC-98, especially since he says to ignore it in fanworks or asks people to "not care about the past" in his replies on that bulletin board. But then he later on goes and makes UFO which has Makai in it so like.... whatever?
Nowadays I just assume it existed since there's things like Makai or what appears to be a Mima reference in CoLA but that the characters won't return despite how nonsensical their non-return is if PC-98 was canon, simply because ZUN doesn't want to bother with them for whatever reason (I think he mentioned them not fitting in? Or was that fan speculation? I don't remember) or explanations for them.
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is in serious need of a reboot. Good lord I forgot all about that thing.
Also, PC-98 is the tree that falls in the forest where there is no one around to hear it.
To me, that's because in Japan the games are quite rare, require a relic to play and piracy is huge no-no in Japan. In other places, I think it's the combination of the games not being translated (and thus making it harder for people to make emotionally connections to it) and the games almost flat out requiring piracy to even play (Good luck finding both a copy of just about any game and the computer itself, especially at any reasonable price). They aren't mainstream like pretty much any game from 6 and on either, so people aren't going to normally run into their existence.
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Personally, I think PC-98 Alice is human
Uh...
A human like you coming here probably means that you're prepared to to face us!!
This is magic that a human like you would never be able to master.
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My love PC-98 character: Yumeko, because she have nice danmaku.
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Uh...
You'd talk that way too if you were raised in Makai ;)
It's a stretch, I know, but [making things up] is [making things up]
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headcanon: so we can use the word canon inside a term for making things up
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It doesn't really matter either way what Alice was in Mystic Square. If she was a youkai in Mystic Square then she became one before the events of MS. Either way it still works.
She's grown up, lives in a large house in the Forest rather than in Makai and any relation to Makai has been completely forgotten. Pretty much everything about her besides "she has a grimoire" has been changed
PMiSS states that she only recently became a magician and so it's normal that she would have aged, considering she wouldn't be (and likely still isn't) the type of magician who has stopped aging yet. How quickly she aged could be considered questionable, but the same could be said of Reimu looking childish and having purple hair in the PC98 games and suddenly having black hair and appearing more adult in EoSD. And then you have the hair color swap on Marisa between SoEW and PoDD, and the de-aging of Reimu after HRtP, both of which occur within the PC98 games. I wouldn't really take physical appearances within PC98 too literally. With regard to her change in residence people can move and Makai and the Forest of Magic are both pretty suitable locations for magicians. It's also quite likely that she lived somewhere else in Gensokyo before becoming a magician (a normal human growing up in Makai is rather odd) and only went to Makai to improve her magic, which would support a move (back to) Gensokyo. Of course that part is just speculation... In any case, I wouldn't say "everything about her has been changed" so much as she's just become more developed than a little girl who desperately wants to show off her strength.
PC-98 Alice was a demon with a playing card motif, who goes out of her way to fight at full strength, is younger-looking than the protagonists and was born in Makai. Windows Alice is a human-turned-magician with a doll motif, who never fights at full strength, is older-looking than the protagonists and is implied to have been born in Bucharest. They're almost nothing alike.
Not being a human doesn't make her a demon. She still used dolls in Mystic Square stage 3 and the card thing only really applied to the stage portion of Extra to fit with the Wonderland theme, rather than Alice herself where she just uses spells from her grimoire. It's also never stated or even implied that she was born in Makai. All we know is that she just happens to be there during the course of the game, which doesn't really say anything about her origins.
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It's also never stated or even implied that she was born in Makai.
inb4 Shinki created everyone bullshit
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...and the de-aging of Reimu after HRtP...
I honestly feel that HRtP is just... not canon. ZUN stated that there was not meant to be a connection between HRtP and SoEW. Alternatively, I do have a little fan-theory on where HRtP might be placed in the time-line: If you pay attention to Reimu's in-game sprite, the resemblance to Windows Reimu is uncanny. Reimu also does not have Genji during the game, possibly during a point when she was training to fly. Plus, the bottom of some of the (http://i.imgur.com/ngIINDV.png) backgrounds (http://i.imgur.com/FOeBTev.png) in Sariel's fight suggests that Makai is in ruins, which supports the fact that Shinki obliterated Makai in the events of MS. So I logically conclude that HRtP takes place after MS but before EoSD.
Back on Topic:
Tengukami's "orthodoxing" thing applies very well to me. Despite being born after the release of Mystic Square, I still can't help but feel that the PC-98 games were just meant for me. The fact that they were the foundation for the Windows games is outstanding. Believe it or not, there was a time when I thought the Touhou series started at 6 (EoSD). I especially love the FM sound, it really appeals to me. On another note, the PC-98 games are only 42 MB total (Average size of 8.4 MB each); the Windows games are 8.8 GB (Average size of 430 MB each).
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PMiSS states that she only recently became a magician and so it's normal that she would have aged, considering she wouldn't be (and likely still isn't) the type of magician who has stopped aging yet. How quickly she aged could be considered questionable
I should reiterate that it was more of a character design change than actual aging, because as you say, whether or not the characters have actually aged that much is complete conjecture. I was going off of the common opinion that Alice aged in a very noticeable manner.
but the same could be said of Reimu looking childish and having purple hair in the PC98 games and suddenly having black hair and appearing more adult in EoSD. And then you have the hair color swap on Marisa between SoEW and PoDD, and the de-aging of Reimu after HRtP, both of which occur within the PC98 games. I wouldn't really take physical appearances within PC98 too literally.
However, I'd disagree a bit with these comparisons. The usual opinion that Alice has aged stems from people seeing Alice's change as significant, but any changes with Reimu and Marisa, including their apparent age, as insignificant. The purple hair business I find was probably due to limitations in color and ZUN just stuck with it, and during the change to Windows he went to what he actually wanted. The hair color swap with Marisa I guess might be similar, because I assume this happened when ZUN started thinking about reusing Marisa as a character and changed her accordingly. But whatever.
In any case, I wouldn't say "everything about her has been changed" so much as she's just become more developed than a little girl who desperately wants to show off her strength.
Design change, development of an actual personality, evolution in doll theme, clarification that she's a human turned magician youkai, big change in location, previous location is never mentioned at all... You can try to go back and suggest how or why each of these things might have happened in-universe, but the result is the same. Alice isn't really Alice.
With regard to her change in residence people can move and Makai and the Forest of Magic are both pretty suitable locations for magicians. It's also quite likely that she lived somewhere else in Gensokyo before becoming a magician (a normal human growing up in Makai is rather odd) and only went to Makai to improve her magic, which would support a move (back to) Gensokyo. Of course that part is just speculation...
Not being a human doesn't make her a demon. She still used dolls in Mystic Square stage 3 and the card thing only really applied to the stage portion of Extra to fit with the Wonderland theme, rather than Alice herself where she just uses spells from her grimoire. It's also never stated or even implied that she was born in Makai. All we know is that she just happens to be there during the course of the game, which doesn't really say anything about her origins.
These sort of hit on what I've been saying throughout the thread. There really just isn't enough information available in these games to make any sort of reasonably solid links between the PC-98 series and the information provided years later. ZUN didn't really think much about where he wanted all this stuff to go. When he decided to think about it in detail, we get all of this great flavorful web of stuff (even if it was a bit messy early on) -- if he had intended for it to work with the previous games, it wouldn't be so difficult and wrought with complete speculation to shake out how the current world might fit with the things from before.
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Most of the PC-98 characters are extremely boring. Save for a few exceptions: Mima, Shinki, Yumeko... and... yeah.
You forgot Rika, who gets 2 stages and is more developed than a lot of Windows characters as a result. Yumemi and Chiyuri also have the single longest dialogue by far of any characters. So, yeah, they're pretty developed by Touhou standards too, except form the playables [Including those in IN] and the focal characters of the mangas.
Yuki and Mai also have quite the dailouge and are unique in Touhou being a duel boss.
Anyway, as a big proponent of love for the PC-98 characters, allow me to explain:
A big thing that is so attractive about them to me at least is exactly the fact that about them are question marks. They are mysterious, and as such, it allows theories to flourish about them, and the characters to be developed.
For example, WHY does Rika dislike Reimu enough to send tanks at her? She dosen't appear to be working for Mima, or after the power of Hakurei like the others in SoEW. I usually go with 'Rika's a mad scientist who hates youkai, and thus Reimu who gets along with them for a human'.
Or 'Why is Yumeko called the 'Doll of Misery'? What is her power where she turns into a green outline and phases around?
Or Elly. Why does she work for Yuuka? Why does she have so many references in her design and even the name of her theme [Seriously look up the meaning and just as importantly the origin of 'Perdition'] to Ankou, a personification of death? And if as that suggests she is a Shinigami of sorts [Both the Ankou and a Shinigami are personifications of death...]; WHY DOES SHE WORK FOR YUUKA?
This is all from someone who would happily put Shinki, Rika and Elly in their Top 10 of characters, Yumemi probobly in the Top 15, and Mai somewhere in the Top 20.
Although, there are some characters who get no love at all. Like Orange and Sara and... who was that samurai in SoEW again? Notable in that most of these have been 'replaced' of sorts [Former two by Meiling, latter by Youmu]. With the exception of Yumeko, who was 'replaced' by Sakuya but is still rather popular in her own right.
Also a lot of people say 'when is there going to be a Christian thingy in Touhou' after the Taoists and Buddhists and Shinto sections. Most of them don't realise that PC-98 had loads and loads and loads of Christianity references.
Specifically:
- Sariel's angelic appearance is like a Christan Angel
- Yumemi's weapons are CROSSES
- Perdition Crisis
- The land you fight Yuki and Mai is a land of Fire and Ice in Makai, which is the daemon world [Aka: Basically Hell]. A lot of depictions of Hell are both fire and ice. [Dante, anyone?]
- Pandemonium [Shinki's castle]
- Shinki herself is a very strong reference to Lucifer
Makai is always tied with Christian references. Hell, Byakuren was in Makai and what did the fandom nickname her? Youkai JESUS.
Also despite all this PC-98 love I throw around, I'm not one of those people who keep pineing for the return of characters. In fact I frequently speak against the guys who keep thinking Mima will come back.
PC-98 is an interesting place if you actually dig.