Ironic that like Meiling, a fellow Stage 3 boss who is a gatekeeper, Elly can be theorized to be something more powerful than she is shown. Except the reasoning for Shinigami Elly is stronger IMO than 'Actually a Dragon' Meiling.It is very possible that canon Elly is a shinigami, or as I would say, was and is now retired to work for Yuuka. Yes, this makes Elly very powerful, but if Meiling actually was a dragon, it is questionable if she really would be stronger since dragons are known to be insanely powerful in the touhou universe.
I like to think that Elly is a scythe. She's a Tsukumogami. That's why her scythe functions as a boomerang, because it's her real body. In a sense I think of her as being the same as Kogasa.Is also possible, but I don't see it as plausible as the other theory myself. Wouldn't Elly take damage if her scythe blocks bullets in that case? Because I don't remember that happening in the game. I haven't really read most of the dialogues from the pc98 games so I may be wrong.
Theory: The tengu village used to be something like a ninja village until it was re-purposed into newspapering. I mean, a secret village in the mountains where residents are put into castes and trained from birth to do their one job? "Information Gathering Corps"? The whole thing just screams "ninja village". Not to mention the whole concept of ninjutsu is often attributed to people being taught by tengu, so it stands to reason that tengu are the original ninjas. Ergo, Aya (who is over 1000 years old) must be a retired ninja trying to put her old skills to work in a new form.
Yeah, pretty sure Konngara isn't even an oni. Isn't she a Yaksha?Actually, yeah. I was wrong there.
Yeah, pretty sure Konngara isn't even an oni. Isn't she a Yaksha?When the heck has that been stated?
When the heck has that been stated?
Probably somewhere in HRtP's manual. I know it's been stated somewhere and that's what the wiki says -_('_')_-Yeah, believe something which even the wiki says it needs a reliable source. Note, I posted the comment udring a time which I couldn't get into wiki, so that's why I was questioning that on the way I did.
Yeah, pretty sure Konngara isn't even an oni. Isn't she a Yaksha?Yaksha is what Konngara Doji (as in, the attendant of Fudoo Myoo-oo) is said to be. There's no proof that touhou's Konngara is supposed to be him, so saying that she's a yaksha makes no more sense than saying that she's an oni.
@Kasen What? Why in Former Hell would you think she has a horn in her ARM?
I'm going to contribute on behalf of Tiamat now, posting my personal favorite fan theory of all (and one that I've posted many times before as an example of a well-constructed fan theory), a.k.a., Yukari Was Maribel (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5755.0.html).This theory needs a little modification near the end, since we know, with the new cds, that Maribel's powers are now strong enough to transport her and Renko to other worlds, so the trigger that turned her in to Yukari can't be that.
Eh, I don't think it's that unlikely for Seiga to have brought Yoshika along with her; it's at least more likely than her having been buried there before Gensokyo's existence, since it takes little over a year for even a buried body to be nothing but teeth and bones. So unless her anti-rot charm can also reconstruct flesh, Yoshika would be a walking skeleton, not a jiang-shi.While I don't think Seiga is above poisoning someone, I also think she's smart enough to realize that there's not much point in keeping a poet around when her brain is rotted away and she doesn't do poetry while under Seiga's control. I like to think they were friends (insofar as close as Seiga can truly be friends with anyone) and after Yoshika's death from another person's poison she kept her around as a memento. A "person she found interesting".
My theory is that Yoshika is the 9th century poet Miyako no Yoshika (she has basically the same name, and is know to compose poems when she's without her ofuda), and Seiga (who, having at least 1400 years, would already be an hermit by then) liked her poems so much that she killed her by poisoning (suggested to be Yoshika's cause of death in SoPM), so as to not destroy her physical appearance, and kept her around as a pet ever since then.
Certainly not the worst thing the fetus lady did in her lifetime, I"m sure :V
Heck, if we would believe the reason why Yukari is so old is because she is messing with the Borders of Age, it would mean she is constanly using her pwoers to do at least one thing.Yukari isn't really that old though, by youkai standards. As in, Eirin and Tewi are thousands of times her age. We know she was around before the Great Hakurei Barrier, but so were a ton of other characters.
I would be really, really surprised if anything about Elly turned out to be inspired by British culture, or Christianity in general.
Oh, this is gonna be fun.
So ihave a theory that the reason why Yukari is so lazy is because her boundary manipulation takes a lot of strenght to do, and she usually doesn't have that much energy in her, meaning hse has to sleep alot to have any inch of energy. I mean, think how much energy it would take to screw with the laws of nature, time and space and all the other stuff. Heck, if we would believe the reason why Yukari is so old is because she is messing with the Borders of Age, it would mean she is constanly using her pwoers to do at least one thing.
It is very possible that canon Elly is a shinigami, or as I would say, was and is now retired to work for Yuuka. Yes, this makes Elly very powerful, but if Meiling actually was a dragon, it is questionable if she really would be stronger since dragons are known to be insanely powerful in the touhou universe.
Theory: The tengu village used to be something like a ninja village until it was re-purposed into newspapering. I mean, a secret village in the mountains where residents are put into castes and trained from birth to do their one job? "Information Gathering Corps"? The whole thing just screams "ninja village". Not to mention the whole concept of ninjutsu is often attributed to people being taught by tengu, so it stands to reason that tengu are the original ninjas. Ergo, Aya (who is over 1000 years old) must be a retired ninja trying to put her old skills to work in a new form.
I'm going to contribute on behalf of Tiamat now, posting my personal favorite fan theory of all (and one that I've posted many times before as an example of a well-constructed fan theory), a.k.a., Yukari Was Maribel (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5755.0.html).
Yukari isn't really that old though, by youkai standards. As in, Eirin and Tewi are thousands of times her age. We know she was around before the Great Hakurei Barrier, but so were a ton of other characters.
This theory needs a little modification near the end, since we know, with the new cds, that Maribel's powers are now strong enough to transport her and Renko to other worlds, so the trigger that turned her in to Yukari can't be that.
Eirin isn't a youkai, though, and Tewi's age is only vaguely implied to be really big.
But yeah, as far as we know, Yukari isn't particularly old among the "top tier" youkai in Gensokyo.
but who knows how far back in time Maribel ended up before turning into Yukari
maybe she even witnessed the birth of the oceans :getdown:
Meiling, if she was actually a Dragon, would probobly be stronger than she lets on. Personally I don't like that wagon *too* much, other than 'Hong' being like 'Long', which is Chinese for 'Dragon'.
Yukari-Maribel is oozeing potential. I think it's unlikely Maribel IS Yukari, as they both exist at once, and at the very least, HM shows Yukari awake during the day, meaning Maribel would be asleep during the day. I think a relationship exists, but they are not one and the same.
Unless timey-wimey shenanigans. Always possible with Gaphax I guess. However, we also know Yukari's been alive for quite a while. My personal guess is Maribel is related to Yukari, but is not Yukari herself. We know Human-Youkai hybrids can exist, look at Rinnosuke.
In fact, I've never seen the source that says Tewi is at least 1,300. As for the 'White Rabbit of Inaba'... I searched it, and it calls the tale the 'White Hare of Inaba', so, yeah, Tewi isn't a hare.
Maybe Maribel is Yukari's reincarnation. That'd require Yukari's death somewhere along the line, but since we don't really know how far into the future Maribel and Renko's stories take place, it's possible that she'd die long after all other human characters die.
Yukari-Maribel is oozeing potential. I think it's unlikely Maribel IS Yukari, as they both exist at once, and at the very least, HM shows Yukari awake during the day, meaning Maribel would be asleep during the day. I think a relationship exists, but they are not one and the same.
Unless timey-wimey shenanigans. Always possible with Gaphax I guess. However, we also know Yukari's been alive for quite a while. My personal guess is Maribel is related to Yukari, but is not Yukari herself. We know Human-Youkai hybrids can exist, look at Rinnosuke.
Maybe Maribel is Yukari's reincarnation. That'd require Yukari's death somewhere along the line, but since we don't really know how far into the future Maribel and Renko's stories take place, it's possible that she'd die long after all other human characters die.
I can't deny this possibility either. However, I er... don't really see how that has anything to do with the symbolism of the Lafcadio Hearn Yakumo name thing.Well, it'd be the reverse of his situation; she was originally a Yakumo that later turned into a Hearn. If Yukari was born in Japan (or what would one day be Japan, depending on how old she is), it'd add another layer to this reversion, as she'd then "emigrate" (so to speak) to the West later in "life" (to be reborn as Maribel, who's confirmed to be non-asian IIRC).
Truthfully, since that's like, one of the few, if only, things where we have complete confirmation of an aspect of the relationship, any relationship between Maribel and Yukari really needs to start with the question, "How does this relate to Lafcadio Hearn?"
Eirin's a lunarian, who generally don't age. Even youkai are stated to age, I believe (I forget where) but Lunarians generally don't due to lacking impurities (though they do have a teeeeny bit of impurity so maybe they age a liiiittle).
The thing about Maribel's relatives is we KNOW the gist of her family line (well, at least, we know what she knows, I admit). Maribel specifically says that her ancestors have sought to be spirited away to another world and always had an interest in the occult.
Which means that she has grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents, etc, all the way back to ancient times.
(and Maribel is... well, basically repeating or attempting to repeat what Yukari already did, which is kinda... I dunno, lame if you ask me)
Eirin may (as well as may not) be from Earth, considering that (from what I've heard) in the legend of Tsukuyomi, he brought some people who he'd considered to be pure, to the moon along with himself, and Eirin was (stated to be) possibly around the Lunar Capital's foundation. But there's some mentions to Eirin's family line as well, saying that her family line is very intelligent, herself being even more than the average.Eirin was around for the founding of the Lunar capital, she's older than Tsukuyomi, and ZUN basically confirmed that she's a god in SoPM. A "higher god", not the sort of local riff-raff god we normally see in Gensokyo. Indeed, she is probably Omoikane, who is also known as Ya-gokoro-omoi-kane-no-mikoto. So, uh... I don't think she's hiding it. No more than Miko is hiding being Prince Shoutoku. She's just using a less well-known name because that just happens to be her name in this setting. I mean, have you ever seen her claim she wasn't a god? Her comments on her family tree in relation to the Watatsukis also seems to support this, I believe.
My theory (unrelated, though), since Eirin's name may actually be something else, it's possible be the Omohikane goddess in disguise (Injustice? Gods among us?)
(note, though, that I'm explicitely saying that it's a possibility, not that it's a fact, as there are other possibilities as well, for a start)
To delve into Eirin's age from canon info:Eirin is confirmed to be older than Tsukuyomi in CiLR, btw
Eirin is older than Tsukuyomi (source? SSiB or CiLR?).
Tsukuyomi is a son of Izanagi. The three noble children, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo, were born when Izanagi returned from his terrible quest to meet the dead Izanami, and cleansed himself. In other words, they were born quite some time after Izanagi and Izanami had created the islands of Japan.
According to Izanagi Object ~ Neo-traditionalism of Japan, Izanagi and Izanami created Japan 25 million years ago. So Eirin's age might be on a time scale comparable to that.
(If we consider the possibility that Eirin is Omoikane, according to some version of family tree of the gods, Omoikane is of the same generation as Izanagi and Izanami. Anyways, Omoikane is older than the three noble children.)
Rescuing cuc's post about Eirin's age, just to give context to the 25 million years old thing:I like the theory of humans not being directly responsible for things like Youkai and Gods. This is probably complelty unsupported but I believe that creatures exist, in a manner, from the moment the concept they are derived from begins to exist.
Eirin is confirmed to be older than Tsukuyomi in CiLR, btw
If we take this as accurate, she's older than humanity itself (our species is barely 400.000 years old).
You know, even discarding Eirin, Neo-Traditionalism basically outright states that Izanagi existed, and it was him that created Japan 25 million years ago. Doesn't this mean that gods pre-date humanity? How can we be their creators if they are older than us?
I have a theory that magic, youkai and gods are not actually wholly dependant on human belief to exist. Basically, human belief only creates things because the lunarians gave humans this ability; Kagura states in IN that they were the ones that gave Earth magic and created the youkai, for instance. Another possible clue for lunarians being really ancient is in CiLR, chapter 3, we have Toyohime staring at the ocean and think "as I watched the ocean, memories of the distant past sprang to my mind"; she then proceeds to talk about the era when life first left the oceans on Earth. This can be interpreted as she actually having the memories of seeing this event herself, which would make her literally hundreds of millions of years old. Alternatively, of course, she could be remembering someone else telling her about it. Or the translation is wrong in its wording.
Also, consider that the outside world still has a good number of supernatural things: Mamizou was the leader of a bunch of tanuki from the outside wrold, and only went to Gensokyo because she was called; Hobgoblins and Chupacabras exist in the outside (as seen in WaHH and FS, respectively); and of course, Maribel and Renko have their abilities (and Maribel's keep growing).
These remnants could be explained as humanity never really giving up on all of their supernatural beliefs, but this still leaves the "gods older than humanity" issue open; how does one create something that's older than itself?
Yeah, pretty sure Konngara isn't even an oni. Isn't she a Yaksha?
Actually, yeah. I was wrong there.
When the heck has that been stated?
Probably somewhere in HRtP's manual. I know it's been stated somewhere and that's what the wiki says -_('_')_-Hi guys, see that thing in the wiki article that says "Citation needed"? That's important. Because it's vapid speculation based on literally one reference to Kongara-douji.
I like the theory of humans not being directly responsible for things like Youkai and Gods. This is probably complelty unsupported but I believe that creatures exist, in a manner, from the moment the concept they are derived from begins to exist.
Yukari for example: I believe that she is exactly as old as the Universe. When nothing became something the first boundary was born, to mark that boundary a small spark of existance lit up. As more elements were formed this spark grew into a flame and carried on growing. The major breakthrough came when the universe gave birth to life. Life continually evolves unlike simple matter, so the existance that marks boundaries began to evolve too. It became as complex as it could and matched evolution of life. When creatures developed thought it too began to think and began to self-identify. As civilisations rose up it became more sophisticated. The more things that are, the more divisions and boundaries there so the more powerful it becomes. Eventually a being of pure symbolism it took the took the form of the most versatile species on the planet. Humans. And here we have the 'Yukari' that we know. A compilation of all the boundaries that the unierse has given birth to
Perhaps the physical forms of Youkai are linked to human kind but there essence is much older. Rumia for example, has had a basic existance since light appeared to make darkness distinct but hasn't been able to take physical form until a creature cabable of truly independent thought came about. It's not that great a theory but I like it.
Oh I know that, that's what I mean when I say their physical shapes are tied to Human kind. That's the reason they became anything more than a concept. I think that Humans created Youkai out of those concepts that had been almost sentient for a very long time. Yukari wouldn't kow this because until humans evolved she was just a precence without thought or feeling. Nevertheless if it's directly contradicting canon somewhere, back to the drawing board.
My theory on Maribel and Yukari: Mariberl is an "alternate" version of Yukari. Like,t ehy are similar, but yet, not the same. Maybe the reason why they look so simular is because they are "bound" by the boundary, Heck, this ties with bit of a headcanon of mine where Yukari was actually a weak youkai before she gained access tot he power of the boundaries. It is no questioning that different worlds hold a differerent version of you, and this might not be no expection.
But really, is this thread going to turn into "Yukari = Maribel" thread 2.0 :V ?
Yeah, says the guy who opened up and ENTIRE THREAD just to discuss about that theory. When ZUN said that, I think he ment " Ignore any and all relation with Maribel and Yukari, it is not worth thinking about in the long run".
I dunno. ZUN said not to think about it too much, so I figure I'll just stick to "Hearn changed his/her name to Yakumo" and try to refrain from arguing about anything too complex or esoteric. Some of these Maribel Yukari theories I'm not even sure where to begin to start cause they're hard to even understand in the first place.
Yeah, says the guy who opened up and ENTIRE THREAD just to discuss about that theory.
When ZUN said that, I think he ment " Ignore any and all relation with Maribel and Yukari, it is not worth thinking about in the long run".
My theory on Maribel and Yukari: Mariberl is an "alternate" version of Yukari. Like,t ehy are similar, but yet, not the same. Maybe the reason why they look so simular is because they are "bound" by the boundary, Heck, this ties with bit of a headcanon of mine where Yukari was actually a weak youkai before she gained access tot he power of the boundaries. It is no questioning that different worlds hold a differerent version of you, and this might not be no expection.
But really, is this thread going to turn into "Yukari = Maribel" thread 2.0 :V ?
EDIT: It'd actually be "Yukari = Maribel" thread 3.0. I recall there was another huge 2.0 thread about it that also included whether or not Remilia was the vampire in the vampire incident.If anyone was wondering the answer to this is "yes"
In fact, I've never seen the source that says Tewi is at least 1,300. As for the 'White Rabbit of Inaba'... I searched it, and it calls the tale the 'White Hare of Inaba', so, yeah, Tewi isn't a hare.
Yuyuko did in A Flower Blooming Violet Every 60 Years, though. ("How rude! I'm still a perk young spirit!")
There's only one satori in Gensokyo, and she doesn't necessarily live there (like the Netherworld, Heaven, the Sanzu River and Higan, Former Hell is not actually part of Gensokyo; it's simply acessible through it).
Theory: Alice is the in-universe reason why PC-98 era was retconned.
How do you explain Yuuka?Reimu, Marisa and Yuuka were hanging somewhere (Like in Hakurei Shrine) after defeating Shinki but Mima decided to go somewhere and met up with Alice, They fought, Alice lost, and the rest is erased history.
And really guys, can we talk about any other theories besides this one? Thank you.Just so everyone's clear here: this is, judging by the thread title, a thread for posting Touhou theories. People are welcome to discuss any theory for as long as they like, as short as they like, or ignore a theory altogether. If a particular theory doesn't interest you, you are free to ignore it, discuss any of the other theories made in this thread, or contribute one of your own. Telling other people what theory they ought or ought not discuss isn't maybe the best idea.
Do I look like a person who thinks theories hours to no end before posting a wall of text, only for some one to still just kick it? Yeah, I rather mae short ones so that it doesn't collapse on me that badly.Picking apart holes in theories is part of the process of making them more sound. Ultimately, it helps make them stronger. I wouldn't take it as a bad thing to have a theory "collapse" per se.
Didn't Reimu say (in one of ZUNs books) that her shrine was once taken over by an evil spirit? Devils recitation is quite interesting too, almost like Byakuren met Shinki there.
I like to think of it to be like with, say, Medicine. A character who almost never appears due to her being in a place not relevant to the story and ZUN probably likes to introduce new characters to the universe.
That's where the confusion appears about Mima, since she was a major character in the past and being the master/teacher of Marisa. It is also unknown where she would go after the events of mystic square.
There are at least 2 satoris in Gensokyo.Other than Koishi, if there's any satori there, it's an unamed one.
Mima's last ending in the extra stage after she defeats AliceWhy the spoiler tags, that's pretty cool news. Would it explain all of those things though? I mean since when can gods not show their faces, and why would nobody talk about her? Anyway, the wiki only says the Mima decides to be a god, not that she decides to be the Hakurei Shrine God.has her deciding to become the god of the Hakurei shrine, after all.. To be honest, if Mima still actually seriously exists within Touhou canon at all, her being the forgotten god of the Hakurei shrine really is the most logical possibility. That would conveniently explain (or at least fit in with) where she's been all this time and why she's mysteriously never shown up again and why no one talks about her anymore.
You know, regarding Former Hell, is there any reason why it was accessible from Gensokyo? Is it because of Yukari's borderhax? Or it's just that the entrance is conveniently placed in Gensokyo without any particular reason?I think that Gensokyo, due to it's nature, just have access to a bunch of weird, outworldly places. I mean, I'm willing to bet that, before the creation of the Hakurei Barrier, you wouldn't be able to just walk to the Sanzu River from the Human Village, for instance.
Why the spoiler tags, that's pretty cool news. Would it explain all of those things though? I mean since when can gods not show their faces, and why would nobody talk about her? Anyway, the wiki only says the Mima decides to be a god, not that she decides to be the Hakurei Shrine God.
Theory 2: Kasen isn't being hunted down? Since when?
I think that Gensokyo, due to it's nature, just have access to a bunch of weird, outworldly places. I mean, I'm willing to bet that, before the creation of the Hakurei Barrier, you wouldn't be able to just walk to the Sanzu River from the Human Village, for instance.
I think that all these places are acessible near the border of the barrier, where reality isn't really well defined. I think it's like Gensokyo is this pocket dimension floating around in the void, with its borders touching other nearby dimensions that are also out of contact with the our world, like Higan, Heaven, the real Moon, etc. Not literally floating in the void, but you get what I mean (I hope).
Well, what I mean by that is the reason why they bother to hunt down her even though she isn't really a proper hermit (if only humans can actually act as hermits) is because of that. It makes sense in my head at least.Has Kasen ever been hunted down?
Has Kasen ever been hunted down?
Well, Komachi seems to visit her ever so often to keep an eye on her so where she might have not been in danger of meeting up with kishin, it doesn't mean she can just relax.I meant, has she, in the past, been hunted by a kishin. We have no idea what Komachi is doing other then watching her. Could one of the jobs of the Shinigami be to check for Hermit Status? Maybe an oni hermit is so unheard of that Eiki is sending Komachi to see how it all works out.
I meant, has she, in the past, been hunted by a kishin. We have no idea what Komachi is doing other then watching her. Could one of the jobs of the Shinigami be to check for Hermit Status? Maybe an oni hermit is so unheard of that Eiki is sending Komachi to see how it all works out.
Maribel doesn't really fit a half-youkai either. One of the things about Rinnosuke is he doesn't age (much). Maribel seems to be aging normally so far (or at least, to have AGED normally so far). If she or her relatives didn't age normally, someone probably would have noticed or brought it up by now (and Maribel does have relatives. She says to Renko, "I don't even have any relatives in Japan!", not "I don't even have any relatives!", implying she has relatives SOMEWHERE, but not in Japan). Rinnosuke also doesn't need to eat much, and is not attacked by youkai, presumably due to his half youkai status. Maribel meanwhile is almost as hungry as Yuyuko in her stories and is attacked by youkai all the time.What I like about this particular factoid is it may shed light on how some beings, even humans, could find their way into Gensokyo.
What I like about this particular factoid is it may shed light on how some beings, even humans, could find their way into Gensokyo.
I mean, we know there are humans in the village. We know that new characters manage to make their way into Gensokyo. But are these the only beings how manage to make it in? Doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if there were creatures, both human and youkai alike, who do manage to make their way into Gensokyo and ... we just never hear about them. Why? Who knows. Possibly accidental death, starvation, exposure, maybe they blend in with other populations, maybe they are "helped" back out.
Now, what I think the long, tenuous link between Maribel and Yukari does is give us some kind of glimpse into how this might happen; that perhaps the border is more porous than we realize, and that blood ties to someone already on the inside might help with this. It's obviously not the only way - we know that total strangers do make their way into Gensokyo. But the Yukari/Maribel thing could hint that perhaps being blood related to someone who is or has been on the inside makes you more likely to not only be able to see the border, but cross it, too.
Pure speculation, no evidence provided. You're welcome.
PMiSS also notes that the ratio of people who want to stay has increased (not that there are many examples to make a trend).
It's implied that Yukari is spiriting away these humans, who make so little impact on the outside world that nothing would change if they were gone.Huh. I though Yukari spirited away suicidal people. ANd people she personally liked.
Didn't Reimu say (in one of ZUNs books) that her shrine was once taken over by an evil spirit? Devils recitation is quite interesting too, almost like Byakuren met Shinki there.
Other than Koishi, if there's any satori there, it's an unamed one.
You know, regarding Former Hell, is there any reason why it was accessible from Gensokyo? Is it because of Yukari's borderhax? Or it's just that the entrance is conveniently placed in Gensokyo without any particular reason?
like Higan, Heaven, the real Moon, etc. Not literally floating in the void, but you get what I mean (I hope).
For whatever reason, the Hakurei god never shows its face, and no one knows the name of the darn thing. Therefore, if Mima still existed, her never showing her face and no one remembering her name could simply be one and the same with whatever reason the Hakurei god never shows its face.
As for why everyone forgot Mima's own name or never mentions her, um... I guess people in Gensokyo have really really bad memory or something (this wouldn't be the only case of THAT, for sure). Though you'd think Marisa would mention or think about her from time to time, at least. (then again, maybe she does and is sad/happy/apathetic that Mima's gone, but tries not to show it so she doesn't show weakness, similar to how Marisa hides how hard she works to keep up with Reimu)
Theory 2: Kasen isn't hunted down by shinigamis/kishins because she's an hermit, but because she tries to be a hermit
Well, what I mean by that is the reason why they bother to hunt down her even though she isn't really a proper hermit (if only humans can actually act as hermits) is because of that. It makes sense in my head at least.
The passive nature of the shrine maiden towards the honest men getting killed and the whole "outside world humans are expendable" is somewhat unnerving
...The hell did I just read? No really, where were you going with that theory?Well what I just wrote is enough for me but how about this. It's a new character. We havn't seen and won't see her in any way but we can speculate that she exists. If someone doesn't find a fault with the idea, then we might even be able to pretty much confirm a character like this exists at some point in time and space, simply as a natural consequence of the world that ZUN has created. Its kinda like the orbit of pluto which can't be observed because we havn't known about it long enough, but we can infer because we think we know how gravity works. Of course, I don't expect the idea to be without fault, and maybe what I just explained is too heady a goal, but its interesting to think about.
Anyone can become a hermit. Being human is not a pre-requisite.I figure but is there any confirmation.
Yeah, Koishi and Satori make it at least 2 satoris around. There may or may not be more, but it does seem unlikely, given the story.
Former Hell is pretty much the underground abadoned by Hell. You only really have to go down to access Hell or Former Hell, nothing special is needed.
Regardless of what's happening, she is unlikely to be hunted at the moment, otherwise both Suika and Yuugi would be hunted.The thing I was trying to say was that she isn't hunted, yes, but she is still being observed by Komachi. Also, Suika and Yuugi are still onis and don't try to hide it, so they don't have any fear of being assaulted by some kishin. The idea of that theory is that Kasen is not a real hermit. She is pretenting to be one to hide the fact that she's an oni. And if not doing what your species are ment to do is a sin to Eiki, trying to avoid the thing you are born as sounds like a bigger sin. As such, Komachi is sent to look after her to see what she's planning and maybe to make her just give up her hermit act and make her go back on being back to oni. After all, Hell isn't there to send sinner in, but so that people won't do as much sin.
You have to be a human to become a hermit. PMiSS lays this on in great detail. It doesn't make sense for anything non-human to become a hermit to begin with, since the whole purpose is to transcend human limitations in training the mind, body and spirit.Anyone can become a hermit. Being human is not a pre-requisite.I figure but is there any confirmation.
Go down how? There must be an entrance somewhere to access it unless you want to dig through the ground until you reach it......Well now that the seal is broken, there's just a big hole in the ground. That's it.
I figure but is there any confirmation.In SoPM, Byakuren talks about Tengu becoming hermits. Part 3, section 2.
In SoPM, Byakuren talks about Tengu becoming hermits. Part 3, section 2.
I checked, Marisa does say back to Byakuren that there is definitely some hermit-like tengus. Notice that she says hermit-like. Also, whnever it would mean those "supernatural" hermits or just people who live alone somewhere in isolation would be argueable.Not really, because in Japanese she says 仙人, which honestly doesn't have much to do with living in isolation. "Hermit" is just the translation we've got. Also, the context is "(Miko's) more like a tengu than I am". Also, Marisa says "hermit-like", Byakuren just says she believes some tengu are hermits. Whether or not what she believes is true, no one questions the idea of a tengu becoming a hermit. A real, honest-to-goodness, mystical hermit. Marisa is just kind of admitting that she can't tell.
Not Higan or the real Moon, the others, yes, but not these two. The real moon, you see from the water's reflection. Higan is inaccessible. Heaven is accessible, as seen in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.Remilia reaches the real moon using a rocket launched from Gensokyo, and Yukari specifically states that they can get there at all because the rocket launched from inside of Gensokyo, so these two "dimensions" border each other, or something.
I figure but is there any confirmation.
What he's saying is that Satori lives in Former Hell, which is technically outside of Gensokyo
Go down how? There must be an entrance somewhere to access it unless you want to dig through the ground until you reach it...
And if not doing what your species are ment to do is a sin to Eiki, trying to avoid the thing you are born as sounds like a bigger sin. As such, Komachi is sent to look after her to see what she's planning and maybe to make her just give up her hermit act and make her go back on being back to oni. After all, Hell isn't there to send sinner in, but so that people won't do as much sin.
You have to be a human to become a hermit. PMiSS lays this on in great detail. It doesn't make sense for anything non-human to become a hermit to begin with, since the whole purpose is to transcend human limitations in training the mind, body and spirit.
I checked, Marisa does say back to Byakuren that there is definitely some hermit-like tengus.
Remilia reaches the real moon using a rocket launched from Gensokyo, and Yukari specifically states that they can get there at all because the rocket launched from inside of Gensokyo, so these two "dimensions" border each other, or something.
Ah, it's true, nobody goes to Higan in PoFV. I was confusing it with Muenzuka.
Komachi is sent there, because Kasen is pretending? to be a hermit. Did something new happen in Wild and Horned Hermit? I'm many chapters behind, but I was under the impression that Kasen is working with/for Komachi.Again, this is a theory thread. Whenever or not Kasen is a real hermit is just spectulation. If she was a real hermit, she probably helps Komachi to make sure they don't try to kill her. If she is not a hermit, then there must be other reason why Komachi visits her, which I theorize being the fact that she is pretty much denying her existence as an oni and they are just trying to make her stop her act by threating her like a hermit. I don't think that she has said that she's an youkai hermit.
Also, was there anywhere in Wild and Horned Hermit that confirms that she is not a Hermit?
If she was a real hermit, she probably helps Komachi to make sure they don't try to kill her.Don't they (Eiki) send the kishin to try and kill hermits.
Don't they (Eiki) send the kishin to try and kill hermits.
Idea is that Kasen does services to Komachi in return of making so that no one sends a kishin to kill her. How she was able to do that kind of deal is beyond me. Maybe youkai hermits can make a deal like that since I am guessing the reason why hermits are hunted down is because they try to extend their natural live. And since youkais live longer than humans, Kasen might still live a natural live span and as such isn't a number one target to them yet.Of course if Kasen does have a natural life span there would be no point in Kishin being sent anyway. We have heard nothing about Kasen doing services for Komachi either. Why would Komachi even hang out with Kasen if those services havn't been asked for. The "denying existance" is probably the best explanation thus far.
Depending on how closely ZUN is following the original stories, it would depend on the type of hermit. They seem to be okay with people who became hermits the hard way, but shikaisen are okay only if they're employees.I don't see why the hermits should be treated differentially. Also employees of what?
I don't see why the hermits should be treated differentially. Also employees of what?Well, Seiga's profile says that Heaven rejected her for betraying her family by faking her death. And Miko and Futo did basically the same thing, except their betrayal was on an even larger scale. While I suppose it might be possible for the shikaisen process to be done in a "good" way, the basic nature of faking your death seems evil. Especially since the whole point of it seems to be to get another object to "die" for you, which probably doesn't sit well with the people in charge of death. I mean, how does Komachi feel when she shows up to pick up a soul to carry across the river and finds a bamboo stick or a plate instead? The whole thing just feels like you're pulling some sort of fraud on the Ministry of Right and Wrong.
Well, Seiga's profile says that Heaven rejected her for betraying her family by faking her death. And Miko and Futo did basically the same thing, except their betrayal was on an even larger scale. While I suppose it might be possible for the shikaisen process to be done in a "good" way, the basic nature of faking your death seems evil. Especially since the whole point of it seems to be to get another object to "die" for you, which probably doesn't sit well with the people in charge of death. I mean, how does Komachi feel when she shows up to pick up a soul to carry across the river and finds a bamboo stick or a plate instead? The whole thing just feels like you're pulling some sort of fraud on the Ministry of Right and Wrong.Mmmmm, that's a good point I guess. Although Komachi probably wouldn't have a problem with it. If she finds a plate to pick up she'll probably see it as one less person who knows she's not doing her job.
@Clarste I think thos in charge of death just hate hermits. For example, Celestials are type of hermits and they still have to worry about getting their asses kicked by kishins. I doubt Celestials who didn't achieve nirvana because they were hermits might have to deal with this problem.I don't think they hate them, it's more that immortality is a privilege and not a right. If they decide that you're wasting your immortality by not doing enough good deeds they'll cut you off. As explained in WaHH chapter 12, living too long is itself a sin for humans, since it disrupts the divine providence of Samsara. People are supposed to reincarnate. In order to make up for that, you have to do at least enough good deeds to balance out your sin. Or that's how I see it.
Former Hell is in Gensokyo. Or Hell of Blazing Fires, whichever you want to call it.
I don't know, what does it say in Subterranean Animism? Isn't there a cave entrance somewhere? This Article (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4) might help.
Regarding the whole hermit thing, maybe the reason Kasen isn't hunted down is simply because she hasn't lived waaaaaay past her lifespan like Seiga has? If Kasen is an oni, and is about the same age as Suika and Yuugi (who are still alive and kicking), then she's still in her natural oni lifespan, and there is no reason for Hell to hunt her down.This was strongly implied by Chapter 12 of WaHH, when Komachi started saying something like "Even you will eventually-" before interrupting herself. And then Kasen muses about how her fate will be different from the others. Which admittedly I translated with a roughly 75% loss of poignancy.
Former Hell is in Gensokyo. Or Hell of Blazing Fires, whichever you want to call it.I'm pretty sure it isn't, purely because of how deep in the ground it is; Kanako thinks that it's lower portions reach the mantle of the planet (on continental crust like Japan, that's at least 20 km below the surface; for comparison, Mount Everest has 8,5 km in height). So unless the Hakurei barrier stretches to the very bowels of the Earth...
Theory: Remilia and Flandre may not have born as vampires.Remilia's EoSD profiles claims that she can't reproduce since she can't drink enough blood at once. Ergo, Touhou uses the classic Western "become a vampire when a vampire kills you" method, rather than the somewhat-more-popular-in-Japan "vampires are born to vampire parents" method. So, yes, it's patently obvious that she was born human and turned into a vampire. Which also implies that Flandre may not be her "real" sister.
Reasoning: If you think about their personalities, Remilia is upper-class "lady" who is still childish and Flandre is just childish. Not only that, but both of them look like childs. Now you imagine that after something like 495 years they would mature mentally and maybe physically. That is, if they were natural vampires. However, waht if they were turned into vampires? That would maybe cause them to go into a "mode lock", prefending them to age both physically and mentally. Heck, their "age" would be counted from the moment they were turned into vampires.
Which also implies that Flandre may not be her "real" sister.I don't understand why you think Flandre isn't Remilia's real sister. It is higly possible that they were born in same family and were turned into vampires at some point.
On the other hand, this is contradicted by the PMiSS article on vampires, where Akyuu writes that those killed by vampire bites simply turn to dust after being a zombie for a while.
I don't understand why you think Flandre isn't Remilia's real sister. It is higly possible that they were born in same family and were turned into vampires at some point.I said "may". It's highly possible that they were born to the same family. It's also highly possible they weren't, and track their lineage through their vampire sire rather than their birth parents.
@Clarste I think thos in charge of death just hate hermits. For example, Celestials are type of hermits and they still have to worry about getting their asses kicked by kishins. I doubt Celestials who didn't achieve nirvana because they were hermits might have to deal with this problem.Why would only Celestials who were once hermits be dealing with this problem? Are they not human anymore? If so why should they still be punished?
Why would only Celestials who were once hermits be dealing with this problem? Are they not human anymore? If so why should they still be punished?
That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnationActually, apparently all Celestials are attacked by kishin. Incidentally, I totally forgot that oni and hermits have a connection in that kishin come to attack the take hermits back to hell. Could Kasen be a kishin. Could she actually be a hermit and Suika is trying to bring her to hell? That would explain why Kasen is trying to hide from Suika. I rather doubt it actually because Suika doesn't seem to be into the whole "new hell" scene.
Huh, I think the question should be, is there any disconfirmation? There is nothing that says you cannot become a hermit if you are a non-human.You shouldn't assume that a non-human can become a hermit if there are no actual examples of non-humans becoming hermits and everyone talks about hermits in terms of humans to begin with.
Komachi is sent there, because Kasen is pretending? to be a hermit. Did something new happen in Wild and Horned Hermit? I'm many chapters behind, but I was under the impression that Kasen is working with/for Komachi.Kasen is definitely not working for Komachi. Kasen is confirmed (very implicitly early on and explicitly recently) to be pretending to be a hermit. The reason why Komachi was sent to keep tabs on Kasen is unknown, but Komachi at the very least knows what Kasen really is.
Could you point this out in Perfect Momento in Strict Sense? I don't believe it is written anywhere that confirms that you need to be a human to become a hermit.Every instance of mentioning a race, including the very title, uses 人間, and in the abilities section it outright says hermits are a type of human (魅力的な人間である仙人だ). Everything about becoming a hermit seems to be fairly pointless for a youkai, and to have a type a youkai be called a delicacy to other youkai makes little sense.
As far as I could tell, in Japanese and Chinese lore, Sennin can be either human or otherwise.
Could Kasen be a kishin. Could she actually be a hermit and Suika is trying to bring her to hell? That would explain why Kasen is trying to hide from Suika. I rather doubt it actually because Suika doesn't seem to be into the whole "new hell" scene.None of this. Kasen isn't a kishin; she didn't even know that kishin are the assailants from hell. Kasen is not a hermit. Suika has also found Kasen twice and hasn't even contacted her never mind attack her. Kasen is trying to hide from Suika so that Suika doesn't reveal her secret, and Suika doesn't know what Kasen is planning by masquerading as a hermit, but she found her at a party and left her alone because she realized Kasen must be planning something.
That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnationNo they haven't. There isn't a "goal" to the cycle of reincarnation to begin with. They cheated the cycle in order to get to Heaven; they did not get there by being judged to go to Heaven after death. They are still evading their lifespan just as hermits do. See what Clarste wrote.
You shouldn't assume that a non-human can become a hermit if there are no actual examples of non-humans becoming hermits and everyone talks about hermits in terms of humans to begin with.
and in the abilities section it outright says hermits are a type of human. Everything about becoming a hermit seems to be fairly pointless for a youkai, and to have a type a youkai be called a delicacy to other youkai makes little sense.
The wiki says that it's implied to be a separate world from Gensokyo. I'd really like to know where, though. Maybe it's Akyuu's line on how all the oni moved to another world; since most seem to have gone to Former Hell, it could be considered a hint that the place is outside of Gensokyo.
Kanako: After I came to Gensokyo, I learned from the tengu that a hell(*3) existed in Gensokyo's underground. So I figured there would be an ocean of fire down there?
Akyuu's comment: 3: To be accurate, Former Hell. Its use as a prison was relocated to the New Hell that the Enmas are managing, and Former Hell became merely a nest for the violent and the despised.
Kanako says this in that article I linked:I'm aware of that. It's from where I got that she thinks the place reaches the mantle.
I'm still curious as to where it's "implied" that Former Hell is another world, as the wiki says. If I can't find anything, I think I'll suggest removing that part.
That's exactly it. They have pretty much achieved enlightment, the final goal of the lcycle of incarnation and gained immortality and place in Heaven. And yet, it seems like Yama just wants to drag them back to the cycle reincarnationNot quite.
"There are no contradictions" doesn't give you license to assume what's in the gaps. There's a difference between using the gap in knowledge to supplant what you like, and actually assuming that it's true.
Well, the Netherworld is explicitly not to a part of Gensokyo; it's why Yukari had to manipulate the border between them in the first place.
I have also thought that Yukari is the one that weakened the Netherworld barrier, but it is actually Yuyuko who did it.Ah, true, Yuyuko just asked Yukari to fix it after the main events.
The wiki and TVT are secondary sources; they cite primary sources - i.e., the game dialogues, official manga and other official works - for what they contend in their pages. But, just like Wikipedia, how the information in a primary source is portrayed is up to the discretion of the editors of the secondary source.Yeah, people citing the wiki for information instead of the original texts that happen to be hosted on the wiki has made me rage on several occasions. Although, um... most of the problems on TVT come from people reading the wiki and then putting that stuff on TVT. Not to assign blame or anything, but that's a recurring problem we have.
In other words, it's always best to go to the primary source for head-scratchers like this.
Drake is right about the humans. Unless a youkai can be confirmed to be a hermit, then we can't say for sure that it can happen. I say I think youkai can be hermits but only because that seems very reasonable to me. However, I don't forget the part that this has never actually been confirmed.I agree that it's not confirmed, but I think the default stance some people are taking is incorrect. Byakuren's comment in SoPM strongly implies that it's possible for tengu to become hermits, and none of the people attending seem at all surprised or confused. Whether or not any tengu in Gensokyo are actually hermits is irrelevant: it's just a fact that youkai becoming hermits doesn't sound that unusual to them. So while it's not proven that they can be, I think the neutral stance on the matter should be "maybe they can" instead of "they probably can't".
The situation is similar to Hell being outside of Gensokyo. I'm not sure where I got that Old Hell, New Hell, Bavah Agra, of Yuyuko's place were not part of Gensokyo but it makes sense. cuc pointed out that Parsee guards the bridge between the mortal world and the underworld. Here's a thing. People from our world still got into old hell, so unless people got into Gesoskyo that would have to be resolved.I've always thought it was just literally underground. It seems directly connected to Gensokyo in terms of physical paths and geysers and whatnot. If it's "another world" then I think the definition of that terms itself comes into question. I mean, is China "another world" from Japan? That seems like an odd thing to say.
Sounds like there might be some ZUN-worthy questions here.
That's true, that alone won't be enough to assume otherwise. However, given that Chinese and Japanese lore indicate that non-humans can become hermits and that there are no contradictions. I would assume non-humans can become hermits, instead of assuming only humans can become hermits.No. A type of youkai having a trait in folklore does not imply it holds for Gensokyo's youkai unless there is any sort of confirmation of it. I don't see why you would go the extra step when we have no reason to believe it's true. You should be holding the null hypothesis that (as far as we know) only humans can become hermits because that is all the information available to us. We don't know if non-humans can or cannot, and so assuming either is too much.
Of course, that is not saying that it is true, both of these are just assumptions, as there is no actual confirmation.
"maybe they can" instead of "they probably can't"Exactly.
No. A type of youkai having a trait in folklore does not imply it holds for Gensokyo's youkai unless there is any sort of confirmation of it. I don't see why you would go the extra step when we have no reason to believe it's true. You should be holding the null hypothesis that (as far as we know) only humans can become hermits because that is all the information available to us. We don't know if non-humans can or cannot, and so assuming either is too much.Ok, I think we're all being reasonable here. Drake I think everyone can agree on the, "Maybe they can, maybe they can't" idea. At this point I think Clarste talking about "What if they did".
My theory is that the world that Yumemi and Chiyuri come from actually IS The Outside World,
Okay, now two things bug me for some time, the first one is rather silly, the second one not so much.
Why exactly is Yumemi's theme called "Strawberry Crisis"? I didn;t find in the story or profile translations any actual reference to problems with fruit in her world, and Renko and Maribel stories with their artificial fruit in Outside World, came a long after that. My theory is that the world that Yumemi and Chiyuri come from actually IS The Outside World, however unnamed at that time - something like a rough draft of an idea ZUN made so important later on.
The second is Yukari's gaps, and what we see in them. They're creepy in a really disturbing way, full of eyes, hands... Why do they look so... otherworldly? I think that this might be either Yukari's true youkai form, too impossible to comprehend for any mortal, or a reference to her as a Laplace Demon. I'd like to hear some more theories on those two matters
I have also thought that Yukari is the one that weakened the Netherworld barrier, but it is actually Yuyuko who did it.
It's silly to go into it, but anyway, about Yumemi and Chiyuri, their dimension supposedly has a near identical version of each inhabitant of Gensokyo, hence Chiyuri's story. I don't think it's the "outside world" of the current canon. They shouldn't be compared anyway. I doubt ZUN had the current universe in mind when he made the PC-98 games.
IIRC, there's no mention of time travel. It's just a motif. They came from another dimension, not the future.
It's silly to go into it, but anyway, about Yumemi and Chiyuri, their dimension supposedly has a near identical version of each inhabitant of Gensokyo, hence Chiyuri's story. I don't think it's the "outside world" of the current canon. They shouldn't be compared anyway. I doubt ZUN had the current universe in mind when he made the PC-98 games.
IIRC, there's no mention of time travel. It's just a motif. They came from another dimension, not the future.
What I know about "sukima" isn't that much, but I talked with some people and it looks like they didn't really know. So here: (please disregard this if you already knew... I... I didn't read the whole topic, sorry XD)
A gap youkai can be varied, however some most famous stories are they were originally a female human. Due to an accident, or a crime, she was trapped inside a solid surface that accidentally has a gap that allows her to breath. It could be a wall, a pile of rocks,... The girl experienced fear, hopelessness, trauma and many things more. Her mind is pretty fucked up after that thus force her into a youkai. Her purpose can be revenge or just pulling people inside the gaps, like how drown people tries to get help and unconsciously kill others with them.
In the old time, this youkai was created after a landslide, people heard things from the crevices and made her up. Urban versions had her murdered and shoved into a wall. All of them are the same at the point of the "sukima" is invincible. She can be anywhere as long as there is a gap. And well, everywhere has gaps, you can't deny that. Even if you tried to sleep, there is a gap betweet your body and the blanket. Event if you run into a complete empty room with no door, no window, or in a ball that has no gap, there is a gap between your fingers, your lips,... You can't escape from a sukima once she's got eye on you. You can't defend against her, that's the whole point and why sukima should be so scary.
Because of her original death, getting crushed and pressed inside those wall/rocks, sukima's body is pretty much deformed. And her mental state won't help making her look any better. I think that somehow explain the things inside Yukari's gaps.
My theory : One of the japanese folklore character, Kiyohime, is possibly related or even have a sibling relation with the Watatsuki Sister. An unwanted child of the Watatsuki family, so she may have been abandoned by her parents on earth and adopted by the village headman. She also turned into serpent/dragon when angered (which increase the possibility of relation to the Watatsumi Dragon God).Sorry if I'm missing something. How is Kiyohime related to touhou?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime)
Sorry if I'm missing something. How is Kiyohime related to touhou?
My theory : One of the japanese folklore character, Kiyohime, is possibly related or even have a sibling relation with the Watatsuki Sister. An unwanted child of the Watatsuki family, so she may have been abandoned by her parents on earth and adopted by the village headman. She also turned into serpent/dragon when angered (which increase the possibility of relation to the Watatsumi Dragon God).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyohime)
Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?
I'm glad you asked! (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,5755.0.html)"That just raises further questions" -Hermes from futurama
Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?
If this is a joke post, it made me laugh.Hey now, I just started the franchise a month ago.
Speaking of theories does anyone else think maribel is yukari?
Taking the long route to the present, her powers will continue to grow greater and greater (as they are already show to be doing in NToJ), ending up as the current Yukari.
It's Christmas I'll bite.
My personal opinion is no. The whole 'Yukari is Maribel when sleeping' theory was jossed in 7.5 and 9.5; as well as 13.5; where Yukari is clearly awake during the daytime. All of these games are canon; and I think we'd have heard of Maribel going into comas randomly if she was doing so whebever Yukari was awake during the day.
I already mentioned this before. While I think it is a sound theory, I don't believe it. I already mentioned the leaps of logic you must make.What leaps of logic? Maribel's powers are shown to be growing as time goes by. She was already shown to be able to get lost in different time periods (and CiLR also confirms that humans can, rarely, get lost in time). Maribel and Yukari have the same ability (Maribel's have grown to the point where she can travel to different worlds as she wishes; it certainly isn't just "seeing boundaries" anymore), the main difference being their strength. Yukari went to the moon manipulting its reflection on a lake; Maribel is implied to have had the same idea when looking at the reflection of the moon on a lake. "Yukari" is explicitly not Yukari's original name, which ties to ZUN's comment about Lafcadio Hearn (who, again, changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo when he became a Japanese citizen.).
It was ignored because your association to Seiga still doesn't make any sense with your explanation and you're merging in another video game series for some reason.
What leaps of logic? Maribel's powers are shown to be growing as time goes by. She was already shown to be able to get lost in different time periods (and CiLR also confirms that humans can, rarely, get lost in time). Maribel and Yukari have the same ability (Maribel's have grown to the point where she can travel to different worlds as she wishes; it certainly isn't just "seeing boundaries" anymore), the main difference being their strength. Yukari went to the moon manipulting its reflection on a lake; Maribel is implied to have had the same idea when looking at the reflection of the moon on a lake. "Yukari" is explicitly not Yukari's original name, which ties to ZUN's comment about Lafcadio Hearn (who, again, changed his name to Koizumi Yakumo when he became a Japanese citizen.).Hmm. . That raises the question of what was would be the hypothetical event that caused her to be trapped in the past? If Maribel is Yukari then that would mean that there's a unknown third party responsible for her no longer being able to time jump. Whatever it was it would have been present both at the shrine and at the moon. The question is what was so powerful or so important that she either lost the ability to jump through time or chose to no longer to?
The only event missing is the one that sends Maribel back in time and traps her there. Everything else falls squarely in place.
Really, you'd need leaps of logic to explain why Maribel isn't Yukari. I don't see a single piece of solid evidence that points to the contrary.
If Maribel is Yukari then that would mean that there's a unknown third party responsible for her no longer being able to time jump. Whatever it was it would have been present both at the shrine and at the moon. The question is what was so powerful or so important that she either lost the ability to jump through time or chose to no longer to?Not really? Where do you get the idea that a third party was required to begin with, never mind why they'd have to be at the shrine and moon?
"Oh, her powers are evolving in a different way than Yukari's so that's proof that Maribel isn't Yukari!!!!"answer: no they aren't
This is a cool theory, and if i used it in a fanfic (Assuming i ever write any.) i would totally credit you, but there is one contraction i can find:
Oh yeah, and I forgot that I have a theory that hasn't been covered yet. I've forgotten almost all of PMiSS so maybe there's something in there that outright refutes this, but my theory is that Yukari creates Yuyuko's servants (Youki and Youmu that we know of) by tampering with the Konpaku family's children while they're still in the womb. She manipulates their border of life and death to create beings that can comfortably live in the netherworld but who can freely travel to the world of the living on errands, possibly with the added bonus that their freakiness will make them want to isolate themselves, and therefore be more inclined to be willing to hang out with Yuyuko instead of living normal lives. That's why we've never seen any other examples of the things that Youmu and Youki are, and as far as we know it isn't fully hereditary because it seems to have skipped a generation. Yukari passed over Youki's child or children because he was still fit to serve Yuyuko, but altered Youmu because he was getting old enough that he may need a replacement soon.
I don't have a ton to back it up aside from the fact that Yukari and Yuyuko are pals, it's awfully convenient that Yuyuko was able to find beings that are willing to be her servants and who also happen to have perfect physical qualities to do that, and their nature could be interpreted as the manipulation of some kind of border (because what can't?). Again, for all I know there's some huge detail just hanging out in open canon that completes derails this, but it was a thought that I had and it seems to make sense from what I know.
Youki Konpaku is like a stubborn old man.http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Personal_Memo_on_Youki (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Personal_Memo_on_Youki)
He is Youmu's old man, and moreover her shishou.
He is not a good-natured old man, possessing dignity and arms that are difficult to get near,
and was a guard who was hired and replied upon by the Saigyouji family.
Yea, the ONLY piece to the Maribel puzzle we're missing right now is the event that traps her back in time. Even that piece has been explicitly stated by a Lunarian that it's possible. How is it a leap of logic to say Maribel went back in time to become Yukari when it's been stated that such a thing is possible and when Mari's shown the ability to time-travel, already?Considering that maribel can time jump into the same time line without the creation of another time line is a direct contradiction to the idea that she can't or won't become yukari. What I mean by that if time travel in the real world is possible then more than likely you would just create a parallel time line instead of actually changing this time line. Maribel's powers to directly violate this means her powers is extremely similar to yukari's. When you break both of their powers down it's pretty much the manipulation of spacetime and while yes I am aware that space and time may be different all together it's been extremely hard for people to try to prove they're entirely separate of each other all together. People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
There are a lot of specifics to that puzzle piece we also don't know (was it voluntary? Involuntary? Can she return or not? etc etc), but all of them are irrelevant to main question of if Maribel is Yukari or not.
If I recall correctly, the other "leap of logic" that people claimed was the leap of logic that Maribel's powers would evolve into Yukari's. These people apparently decided to ignore the blatant statement by Renko in Changeability of Strange Dream that her powers were evolving into "the ability to manipulate boundaries" or brushed off by the nay-sayers as speculation by Renko with no proof. But it's more than obvious NOW that her powers are getting stronger and evolving, so that "leap of logic" is pretty much 100% confirmed to be true. ....but now we're all going to start repeating ourselves and I'm going to have to deal with reading ridiculous leap-of-logic stuff like "Oh, her powers are evolving in a different way than Yukari's so that's proof that Maribel isn't Yukari!!!!" and stuff like that. Sigh.
Not really? Where do you get the idea that a third party was required to begin with, never mind why they'd have to be at the shrine and moon?Hypothetically if maribel is yukari then something she saw at the shrine sent her down the path of becoming yukari and once again when she travelled to the moon in the past she saw that something.
I don't mean to nitpick, but if that post used to say "Seiga Kaku" (I can't see it's pre-edit form) then when you went back to correct it, it seems you put down "Seija Kaku" which is neither of the two. I think you meant Seija Kijin.
Until we learn what happened at the shrine I'm going to sarcastically chalk it up to gremlins.