On the Interview of Cara☆Mel vol.8, ZUN mentioned that he tried to keep her from being indecent during the design process by adding a cannon on her arm instead of having an additional leg, thus solving the analogy of the third leg of the Yatagarasu.He calls it a cannon right there, so that kinda puts an end to discussion, and Okuu's arm is a gun.
I would like to believe most of us know that it's a control rod, but it's served its uses as a cannon in Soku - people thought it was cool so we just kind of stuck with it?Even in Soku it didn't have an actual barrel; she just focused energy at its tip. People were depicting it as an arm cannon long before Soku though.
samus aran would like to have a word with youWell I think megaman is going to take a while, but ok.
On the other hand, I'm not sure what its function as a "control rod" would be either. (I highly doubt she uses it as you'd use an actual control rod. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_rod) I guess you could speculate that there are buttons and levers inside it, but that seems far fetched to me. Why not just have a hand held device or something similar?I certainly don't think it works like a real control rod. I just think naming it a control rod was appropriate from their perspective since it is a rod and it does control things.
I personally don't think it's meant to have any particular function. At least nothing much different than what her feet do, assuming they do anything special themselves. I think it's primarily an aesthetic thing, as are most characters props, accessories, etc.
I can't really back this up, but I think she actually uses the control rod as an actual "control rod." She wields the power of a god, so the rod can possibly be used to keep Yatagarasu's power in check so that Okuu doesn't go ballistic and destroy Gensokyo a la "Utsuho of the Void." Either that or the rod stops Okuu from destroying herself with the ridiculous amount of power she wields. This would also coincide with the real world use of a control rod.I considered that but it didn't make sense to me, that the device that controls the Yatagarasu is on her arm. Like, is that where the Yatagarasu lives? I dunno, maybe she's like Ovan from .hack.
I considered that but it didn't make sense to me, that the device that controls the Yatagarasu is on her arm. Like, is that where the Yatagarasu lives? I dunno, maybe she's like Ovan from .hack.I remember that
I formed an idea of what Okuu's relationship is with the Yatagarasu. From what cuc told me, Okuu only contains part of the Yatagarasu, so I'm tempted to think that there is a second sentience inside of Okuu (maybe in that red eye thing has something to do with that) that would have just as much interest in not destroying Okuu as Okuu has in not destroying herself.
I'd like to point out too that she's seen in Oriental Sacred Place without her...uhh..yatagarasu stuff on, so I don't think she's outright needs the control rod to control her power. I've kinda thought of it as more of a dimmer switch, otherwise it could start an unstoppable chain reaction, and those aren't fun.Ugh, I hate these shots to my beautiful interpretations. So maybe Okuu isn't chained to labor in the furnaces of hell. Maybe she can also be a normal girl from time to time.
On her left leg is the "Leg of fission";
On her right leg is the "Leg of fusion";
Finally, on her right arm is that which controls this, the "Third Leg"
Her right foot is supposed to be encased in concrete (representing either the concrete sarcophagus that was built to contain the Chernobyl reactor or the cement-like corium found inside), but is often depicted in fan art as a gray ruffled legwarmer or an armored greave. The electrons orbiting her other leg are also often omitted in fanart, and sometimes the control rod on her arm is too.
Utsuho had the job of controlling the flames of old hell before she gained Yatagarasu's power, so her control rod isn't necessary for that. Her job at the fusion reactor is a side-job, I think, so it can't really be full-time, since she still has to regulate the flames (unless the reactor is also used to regulate the temperature of old hell now?)I always figured there was one furnace that was the flames of old hell and the nuclear reactor. Certainly there are other ways of maintaining the fire but none of them are quite as effective as just being able to control nuclear fusion and fission. Now that I think about it, was the Yatagarasu in old hell before Okuu got those powers? Was old hell always a sun inside the earth? If not then Okuu and her control wouldn't have been needed prior to Kanako installing nuclear power.
Do the symbols on her control rod/cannon mean something specific?
Ugh, I hate these shots to my beautiful interpretations. So maybe Okuu isn't chained to labor in the furnaces of hell. Maybe she can also be a normal girl from time to time.I wouldn't get too worried, I don't think you were that much off track.
I always figured there was one furnace that was the flames of old hell and the nuclear reactor. Certainly there are other ways of maintaining the fire but none of them are quite as effective as just being able to control nuclear fusion and fission. Now that I think about it, was the Yatagarasu in old hell before Okuu got those powers? Was old hell always a sun inside the earth? If not then Okuu and her control wouldn't have been needed prior to Kanako installing nuclear power.I remember seeing a furnace kinda like this in DragonBall, I think it was powered by special wood or was a fire that simply burned.
maybe it had a shrine in hell that was abandoned, or something.
Yeah... the nuclear reactor was most likely built on top of the furnance. According to Okuu's profile, she controlled the temperatures by either opening the skylights in the courtyard if it got too hot, or by dumping corpses in the flames if it got too cold, so I guess nuclear fusion is more pratical than that.There is no reason why Okuu can't still be controlling the temperature using corpses and a sky light, I just assume she's also controlling reaction speeds. Corpses are, after all, mostly fusile, and it is conceivable to cool the reactor via convection (although it would be a very efficient method). The sky light idea actually creates some problems which aren't really the topic of this thread. If hell has a sky light, where is that on the surface? How does air circulate through this sky light if it isn't massive?
Gods can split themselves infinitely without losing any power, IIRC the explanation from SSiB; maybe Kanako just asked the Yatagarasu to lend its power to Okuu. Then again, Okuu's profile states that Kanako said to her that "the Hell of Blazing Fires hides the secret to the ultimate form of energy that humans can attain", which would point at the Yatagarasu being already there... maybe it had a shrine in hell that was abandoned, or something.
Okuu's profile and the wiki don't really contradict themselves; she absorbed the Yatagarasu that was in old hell after Kanako said where she could find it. She didn't actually hand Okuu the god itself.Except the profile made it sounds like like Okuu was given the power while Kanako was talking to her. The story goes from Kanako talking to Okuu to Okuu being enveloped in light. Also, where did this part of the article about Okuu eating the Yatagarasu (which I'm getting tired or typing so shall now be called Yata) come from?
Old hell is not really part of Gensokyo; its skylights could be somewhere in the outside world, or perhaps old hell is in it's own "dimension", similar to Gensokyo. This is just conjecture, though, so eh.That only means that there's a massive home somewhere in our world. It doesn't bother me that much.
Iit still leaves the "what the hell was a Yatagarasu doing in hell in the first place?" question open.I actually have no problem just saying that's where the Yata chills out, so long as there is nothing saying that it should be doing something else.
I always assumed that the Yatagarasu was in old hell because it somehow died. Orin, or some other Kasha, retrieved the body and brought it into former hell. Okuu threw it in but the body didn't burn up, or couldn't burn up. This could have happened a long time ago and Okuu forgot...or she just doesn't pay attention when she throws in corpses. Yes, it is a god in a sense, but it is still possible that it died at some point (not enough faith and whatnot). Though, this does in a way throw out the whole "gets its faith from Amaterasu" thing Sagus was talking about.The bigger issues is that if the Yata died from lack of faith then how is Okuu able to use it's power after eating it (assuming it still runs on faith which I think is fair)? Who started having faith in the Yata again?
Another explanation is that Kanako found the body and threw it in old hell just for her to tell Okuu to find it. Seems like something Kanako would do.
The bigger issues is that if the Yata died from lack of faith then how is Okuu able to use it's power after eating it (assuming it still runs on faith which I think is fair)? Who started having faith in the Yata again?Clearly Soccer/Football.
Another question that this is all circling around is did the Yata agree to merge with Okuu, or was that done against its will. If we accept the former things become easier since the Yata could still have ample faith from some other source but if we insist that Okuu "ate" the Yata then that would imply the latter.Pretty sure the Yatagarasu didn't have a choice in the matter.
I always assumed that the Yatagarasu was in old hell because it somehow died. Orin, or some other Kasha, retrieved the body and brought it into former hell. Okuu threw it in but the body didn't burn up, or couldn't burn up. This could have happened a long time ago and Okuu forgot...or she just doesn't pay attention when she throws in corpses. Yes, it is a god in a sense, but it is still possible that it died at some point (not enough faith and whatnot). Though, this does in a way throw out the whole "gets its faith from Amaterasu" thing Sagus was talking about.
Another explanation is that Kanako found the body and threw it in old hell just for her to tell Okuu to find it. Seems like something Kanako would do.
I'll just throw this wild theory here: maybe when Kanako said "The Hell of Blazing Fires hides the secret to the ultimate form of energy that humans can attain", she wasn't talking about the Yatagarasu, but about the flames of hell; like, the flames always had the potential to be a nuclear fusion reactor, all that was needed was someone to control them. Kanako believed Okuu could do it, and so gave her the means to make it work: the Yatagarasu, who could give to someone the power to control nuclear fusion.This is somewhat validated by issue 2 of WaHH. (I think was the one)
The Yatagarasu wouldn't reside in hell itself, as one of the key points is that former hell doesn't reactivate until Utsuho receives its power. If the Yatagarasu was always there then it makes no sense that it only reactivates now.The Yata could still be in hell without running a nuclear reactor. It's not like it has any incentive to power Gensokyo.
What Sagus says is correct. I almost find it weird that people would think otherwise, partly because of that line and partly because it's explicitly stated that Utsuho, knowing how to control the fires of former hell, is the only one capable of managing the Yatagarasu.
You're forgetting that gods aren't restricted to a single body. They can, and do, split themselves in as many bodies as they need, with no decrease in power at all (Suwako says so in her victory quote against herself in 12.3, and I think this is mentioned in SSiB). For instance, Suwako can appear as a frog when a part of her is enshrined in other places (according to her SoPM article), but it's not like her human form suddenly vanishes and she appears as a frog in a far away shrine everytime someone calls to her. The same, I assume, applies to the Yatagarasu; what's inside Okuu is just a portion of it's spirit, not the full extent of the being.I'm not forgetting that, in fact I'm almost counting on it. This lets us answer the question of where the faith comes from. Okuu contains a portion of the Yata and the other portions are out gathering faith. In addition, a portion of a god may be easier to contain then the entire god (I know a god can apparently split itself without lousing power, but that can't be all there is to it). However, containment is still containment and it does beg the question, why the Yata doesn't just pull out, assuming that's what it wants to do.
How Kanako managed to turn Okuu into a shrine to the Yatagarasu is a good question, but really, the enshrining of gods itself is unexplained; like, if I built a shrine and started workshipping Kanako there, would a portion of her spirit just appear there so she could manifest herself to me? Or it's necessary for the god itself to show up and leave a part of it there? And after it's enshrined, can it just choose to leave the shrine, or it only disappears if people stop workshipping it there?I think the god has to choose to be enshrined. I think it was WaHH where Reimu wanted to trick (or convince) a fortune god into residing in the Hakurei shrine. I imagine it can also leave. Although, in SSiB, when Yukari was captured by Toyohime, I recall they did mention the rope hanging in front of the Moriya shrine, and how it means that the shrine has something powerful enshrined there, and that this same technique was now being used to hold Yukari. I'd like someone who knows more about this stuff to throw in their two cents.
As to why Okuu even is necessary, I'd guess the Yata simply doesn't have a reason to work as an operator in a hell furnance for the benefit of a fantasy reserve, so Kanako needed a pawn that could channel his power and do the work. I'm guessing here that Okuu is something like Reimu's yin-yang orb (which is the Hakurei shrine's go-shintai); when Reimu uses the orb, she's using the blessing of the Hakurei god, but the god itself isn't actively doing anything. Same thing with Okuu; when she uses her nuclear powers, she's using the blessing of the Yatagarasu, but the Yata himself isn't actively doing anything.I figure something like that, in the same way that a faucet controls water but doesn't actually produce it. I think of it as, the Yata needed a presence in hell, so something like a shrine, and it needed an operator for it's power, so something like Okuu. For Kanako, combining both into one, is just efficient. However, I would not say that the Yata doesn't do anything, it would still have to be taxed for the use of it's power.
I'm not forgetting that, in fact I'm almost counting on it. This lets us answer the question of where the faith comes from. Okuu contains a portion of the Yata and the other portions are out gathering faith. In addition, a portion of a god may be easier to contain then the entire god (I know a god can apparently split itself without lousing power, but that can't be all there is to it). However, containment is still containment and it does beg the question, why the Yata doesn't just pull out, assuming that's what it wants to do.
I figure something like that, in the same way that a faucet controls water but doesn't actually produce it. I think of it as, the Yata needed a presence in hell, so something like a shrine, and it needed an operator for it's power, so something like Okuu. For Kanako, combining both into one, is just efficient. However, I would not say that the Yata doesn't do anything, it would still have to be taxed for the use of it's power.I don't really think the Yata is being taxed for the use of its power; nowhere in canon we've seen gods having their power lessened by people calling on them. The Hakurei god has nearly 0 workshippers and Reimu can use its power without any trouble at all (hell, Kasen's arm blows up just by touching the yin-yang orb, which goes to show that his "youkai extermination" blessings works perfectly even without the shrine maiden around); if using a god's power would be taxing on it, the Hakurei god wouldn't be able to sustain itself at all, considering that faith in it is most likely nearly non-existant
Well, considering that the Yatagarasu hasn't left Okuu, it's simplier to assume it just doesn't care that it has a shrine in old hell. It doesn't care enough to go work there personally, but doesn't mind lending it's power. Shimenawa (the giant ropes), IIRC, are a lunarian invention that is used to bind gods into shrines. If the Yata was locked there against his will, I think Okuu would have one as part of her design, to represent that a part of the god is sealed inside her.Maybe. I think we've taken this pretty far as information at this point will be sparse. I don't think it's a good idea to say that just because any normal person would try to do something about their captives if they were held against their will is grounds to say that the Yata is not being held against its will.
As for the whole "splitting themselves without losing power" thing... AFAIK we don't have any other canon info about it other than that, so unless it's expanded upon on future canon material, that is all there is to it...Again, true, as far as I know.
I don't really think the Yata is being taxed for the use of its power; nowhere in canon we've seen gods having their power lessened by people calling on them. The Hakurei god has nearly 0 workshippers and Reimu can use its power without any trouble at all (hell, Kasen's arm blows up just by touching the yin-yang orb, which goes to show that his "youkai extermination" blessings works perfectly even without the shrine maiden around); if using a god's power would be taxing on it, the Hakurei god wouldn't be able to sustain itself at all, considering that faith in it is most likely nearly non-existantThat's how gods work though. That's why Kanako can treat religion like a business with faith as its currency. They get worshipers and, using faith, they give blessings. If they have more worshipers they can use more faith to give better blessings. I don't want to say faith is like a mana bar, the situation is a little more nuanced in my mind, but it kinda' is.
Maybe. I think we've taken this pretty far as information at this point will be sparse. I don't think it's a good idea to say that just because any normal person would try to do something about their captives if they were held against their will is grounds to say that the Yata is not being held against its will.'Tis mostly that there really isn't anything suggesting the Yatagarasu doesn't want a shrine there. Nothing really points at it being a prisioner. The most we get on its possible opinions on the matter is Akyuu wondering "what the Yatagarasu thinks of being sent to the Former Hell to divide spirits while living among the despised, when it has the status and the supreme divinity of the Sun". So I dunno, it being held there against its will doesn't really seem likely to me.
That's how gods work though. That's why Kanako can treat religion like a business with faith as its currency. They get worshipers and, using faith, they give blessings. If they have more worshipers they can use more faith to give better blessings. I don't want to say faith is like a mana bar, the situation is a little more nuanced in my mind, but it kinda' is.I kinda like Drake interpretation of the reason a god needs faith more:
The Hakurei Shrine is not normal, as illustrated in SWR. It continues to function even after it is destroyed by Tenshi. Yukari also found it necessary to destroy again after Tenshi placed a keystone in its foundation when rebuilding it. Reimu is also not a normal priestess, as illustrated in a few places throughout the series.
It's entirely possible that the god's power is not even proportional to faith in it, particularly in Gensokyo. I would wager that the god is inherently powerful, and as long as they have some faith they can use their abilities. Instead, a need for a large base of faith is primarily for their influence on the population, allowing them to act for that population. A god you don't believe in can't really help you as that god. A god many people believe in grants the god influence over those people and allows for direct interaction. This is fairly obviously Kanako's goal, rather than accumulating sheer power. Having sheer power proportional to faith makes no sense. Rather, the mechanisms for faith in Touhou follow heuristics that are very similar to how they act in real life, but are applied in a world where said gods physically exist and exert influence. It's good stuff.
you guys are posting too muchwe shall post
The Hakurei Shrine that breaks isn't the actual shrine. It's said at least once, maybe twice, and not only does Yukari give no shits when it's destroyed by Tenshi, she later destroys it herself.Wait, what? Then what's the building that's destroyed in the background of the "Hakurei Shrine" stage? Reimu's living quarters?
But the whereabouts of the goshintai will probably remain a mystery (OSP 17 and WAHH 15). Indeed, wherever it's housed is the true Hakurei Shrine.I had the impression that the go-shintai was the yin yang orb, going by the end of OSP 17 (Kasen says so, at least...)
you guys are posting too muchI know, you got in just before I was about to make another. This is going to be hard to reply to.
"The Yata could still be in hell without running a nuclear reactor. It's not like it has any incentive to power Gensokyo. "I don't understand the problem. Can't the Yata just be chilling somewhere without doing much of anything? P.S. I don't think this is what was actually going on anymore.
Inconsistent. Why even bother having the Yatagarasu at this point if it was already in Former Hell but just didn't want to do anything.
"so I'm thinking the Yata did not want to do that. Kanako took more drastic measures and forced the Yata into Okuu."How is it baseless? If Kanako can put put the Yata into Okuu then she can probably also ask it a question like if it would help with her plans. If the Yata did want to help with her plans I feel like she could just set the Yata up in Hell where it can then get a portion of itself to do the work. Why risk the potential error of having the intended vessel of a god go rouge? It seems to me that Kanako had to take a risk with Okuu and did so because she thought she could get Okuu to go along with her plan, after failing to get the Yata to go along with her plan.
no, baseless speculation, etc
"I think the god has to choose to be enshrined."Mess up, on my part. I don't think that anymore.
why say it's being kept against its will and then say it chooses to be enshrined
"I think of it as, the Yata needed a presence in hell, so something like a shrine, and it needed an operator for it's power, so something like Okuu"Are gods generally lazy?
More or less. Even if a god can split into several parts, most are probably too lazy to do the bulk of their work themselves, so they use priestesses and goshintai and whatnot as outlets.
"Also I'm gonna ask the wiki about why the article says that Okuu ate the Yata. "Oh, I'm gonna need to check that out. Should we believe her? Could they be metaphors? Her profile in SA doesn't say anything like that.
Because nearly every instance in dialogue of Utsuho obtaining said power says she ate it, drank it, consumed it, etc.
Yukari: （霊夢、貴方なら見える筈 目の前の鳥は、何の神を喰らったと思う？）I can't read that but I think your talking about the eating bit.
Suika: （でも、どうやらこいつ 厄介なもん飲み込んだみたいだねぇ） [...] （神を飲み込んだね）
Aya: （さっきの猫が言ってましたよ 神の力を飲み込んだって） [...] （貴方が唆されて神を飲み込んだ者ですね？）
reimu also says it a few times in dialogue and then in the pre-extra story
To note, her "eating" things is a hell raven thing. It's worded like that on purpose.
I actually can't recall exactly where it was said that the real shrine is elsewhere. You can make your own judgments until I remember where it is.The Keystone was part off the foundation of the building. You can't just remove it.
A keystone will affect the surrounding area too, though. There's definitely more to it considering she toppled the whole building rather than just take the keystone out.