Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Delfigamer on December 10, 2012, 01:55:09 PM
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(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/213/9/4/kanako__s_science_dance__animated___by_spaztique-d59h1c7.gif)
Where we stopped? Ah, yeah.
- Glow seen from knives that are inside the area of accelerated time is the thermal infra-red waves with frequency boosted enough to turn them into visible light.
- Rumiya represent the fear of darkness, not the darkness itself, so she cannot affect light or darkness, only human's perceiving is under her comparatively weak control (fear's eyes are big).
Share your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen.
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Rumia's ability is said to be the "manipulation of darkness", except this is conceptually wrong and it is more correct to classify her ability as "the manipulation of light". In physics, colour is perceived by the spectrum of wavelengths that a surface reflects. A surface that reflects all light of the visible spectrum appears white, a surface that absorbs all light of the spectrum appears black. Darkness is defined as the absence of light. However, if there's no light to begin with, what's there to manipulate?
In practice, Rumia's power possibly behaves like a black-body, which absorbs incoming light and emits thermal radiation. Another explanation is through fluorescence where visible light is converted to a frequency outside the visible spectrum such as infrared or UV light.
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Be aware that Symposium of Post Mysticism (Futo's section) confirms that at least some of those abilities are self-proclaimed. If Rumia's was, it is likely that she wouldn't be smart enough to realize that her ability conceptually makes no sense.
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Or perhaps "darkness" in this case is an actual pitch black substance that Rumia can produce in order to envelope herself and a fraction of her surronding area, so as to protect herself from the sun (necessary since she states that it makes it hard for her to think and also makes her skin and hair go bad) and confuse prey and predators alike.
not entirely unlike an octopus' ink blasts
we should totally also have a youkai biology thread
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- Glow seen from knives that are inside the area of accelerated time is the thermal infra-red waves with frequency boosted enough to turn them into visible light.
I think light seen coming from the knives that are accelerating is proportionally increased in wavelength, or shifted to the red end of the spectrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift).
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Rumia's ability is said to be the "manipulation of darkness", except this is conceptually wrong and it is more correct to classify her ability as "the manipulation of light".
Saying her power is manipulation of light is pretty much the same as saying Cirno's power is manipulation of heat. In order to not completely mislead everyone, you'd need to clarify their powers are limited to the reduction or removal of heat/light.
And sure, it might be more accurate to say their powers are "the ability to remove/reduce light/heat within an area", but the result is darkness and cold. We have a concept of dark and cold, so we should use that instead of using a more general concept and then appending clarifications to it. Otherwise, why bother having words for it in the first place?
As an example, saying "Satori can read minds" is a tad quicker and more intuitive than "Satori's ability is being able to detect and interpret neuroelectrical pulses within another being's brain", or something.
'Sides, that's also assuming their powers work on a physical level rather than the much more fun idea that they're conceptual in nature to begin with.
Not sure why, but I do rather like the idea that she just shifts light into nonvisible frequencies rather than just pushing it away or removing it though.
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>Youkai biology.
That's relatively simple. The essence of a youkai is its mind, not its body. A youkai's psychology determines its physiology, not the other way around.
>Redshift
During the Kaguya boss fight, the moonlight graphical effect behind her changes in the following way:
-At the beginning, it's blue;
-After her first SC, Kaguya plays a "gathering power" animation, and the moonlight turns red;
-After the second SC, the graphical effect reverses;
-After the third SC, the reversed moonlight turns purple, and stayed that way to the very end.
Now, this is obviously referencing redshift and blueshift. And because the change only takes place after Kaguya's special "gathering power" animation, it's intended to be highly visible and meaningful. So what does it means?
My interpretation:
Kaguya had discovered the endless night magic (but only realized it’s casted by the opponents before her eyes at the end), and was using her power to neutralize its effect throughout the fight.
The endless night might have worked by rewinding time. Thus:
-"normal" blue light = normal speed time rewinding;
-"normal" red light = slowed time rewinding;
-"reverse" red light = slowed time;
-"reverse" purple light = time fast forwarding.
In other words, Kaguya reversed the direction of time again so it flowed in the right direction, and then accelerated it to catch up with the correct hour of the day.
Also consider that the moon is moving from left to right when you first reach the end of Stage 6B (it then stays in the center of the screen). If the left is the West, then the moon is indeed moving in reverse. That's hard to tell, though.
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Not sure about the reversal of time, afaik Kaguya accelerates time or controls time flow? (I am quite confused) Afaik, the night was frozen or moved extremely slow (game wise). Kaguya indeed discovers at the end of the fight that the heroines are the cause of the "frozen/everlasting night".
Kaguya:
What is this! I see, the ones who have stopped the night.. That was you two, wasn't it.
Kaguya Houraisan REVIVES
The half-done everlasting night that you have made... With my art for manipulating the eternal, I'll tear it all away. The dawn shall come immediately. How's that? With this, Imperishable Night will be broken!
Your description of the colours and moon position sparked my curiosity, need to check that out tonight.
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There is some space here allowing for further weirdness, as the moon in Stage 6B is supposed to be the True Moon, the source of magic and insanity, rather than the mundane moon we see every day. So, we have to wonder what those light effects are supposed to represent: Jacob's ladder, lunar halo, or something much more extraordinary and deeply magical?
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Or perhaps "darkness" in this case is an actual pitch black substance that Rumia can produce in order to envelope herself and a fraction of her surrounding area
I don't think this is out of the question... If gameplay mechanics are to be taken at face value, this is the way it appears in Shoot the Bullet, when Rumia seems to be emitting "clouds" of darkness.
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It could also be a tiny cloud of dark matter.
Another thing that's bugged me - Suika. Her power is manipulation of density and sparseness. Notice this is not manipulation of mass. So with that in mind, when she takes on her giganto form, are we to take this to mean she has lessened her density to be able to have the same mass at this size? Are her tiny-little-Suikas actually super-solid?
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Well, she has the ability to manipulate density, but may that is just something else that she could do. For example, how was she able to shatter the heavens?
Like Youmu's ability is swordsmanship, but she was able to gather spring, which is something normal people can't do. That would just be something else Youmu can do in addition to her ability of swordsmanship.
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Well, she has the ability to manipulate density, but may that is just something else that she could do. For example, how was she able to shatter the heavens?
Like Youmu's ability is swordsmanship, but she was able to gather spring, which is something normal people can't do. That would just be something else Youmu can do in addition to her ability of swordsmanship.
Well, Suika is oni. Oni normally have the colossal strength.
Another thing that's bugged me - Suika. Her power is manipulation of density and sparseness. Notice this is not manipulation of mass. So with that in mind, when she takes on her giganto form, are we to take this to mean she has lessened her density to be able to have the same mass at this size? Are her tiny-little-Suikas actually super-solid?
Isn't density a value measured by kg/m3? :3
However, each kg of matter costs 9*1016 J of energy. So, Suika is far more energetic than Marisa and Satorin combined. :3
She also can move all her mass to feet. It is actually useful, with her superstrong legs.
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It could also be a tiny cloud of dark matter.
As what I know, dark matter is just galaxy's parts that don't emit light, such as blach holes, cold nebulas, died stars and similar. It doesn't have any special properties useful to a darkness youkai.
Guys you didn't convince me. Manipulating illusions caused by fear is much simpler and more fitting to a youkai.
Cirno and Sunny aren't just youkai, they are fairies which represent certain parts of the nature. They don't need to control cold/light. They are them, in some sense.
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Another thing that's bugged me - Suika. Her power is manipulation of density and sparseness. Notice this is not manipulation of mass. So with that in mind, when she takes on her giganto form, are we to take this to mean she has lessened her density to be able to have the same mass at this size? Are her tiny-little-Suikas actually super-solid?
I don't see any reason why not.
However, each kg of matter costs 9*1016 J of energy. So, Suika is far more energetic than Marisa and Satorin combined. :3
That's not quite correct. Suika keeps the same mass at all times. When she grows super-large, she "scatters" her mass across a larger volume, and conversely, when she shrinks, she compresses it into a smaller space.
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It could also be a tiny cloud of dark matter.
As what I know, dark matter is just galaxy's parts that don't emit light, such as blach holes, cold nebulas, died stars and similar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
If you're referring to the cosmological meaning of 'Dark Matter', wikipedia says that its absorption of light is quite unsignificant.
Is it possible to explain how manipulation of time can get a larger interior?
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Isn't density a value measured by kg/m3?
Yes? And that being the case, if Suika grows large but has manipulated her density to attain this size, her mass has probably decreased.
As what I know, dark matter is just galaxy's parts that don't emit light, such as blach holes, cold nebulas, died stars and similar. It doesn't have any special properties useful to a darkness youkai.
No, this isn't right. We don't really know what dark matter is. What we do know, though, is it has the same properties as "visible" matter, and that it comprises most of the universe.
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From what I understand, we don't know what Dark Matter is but we know it exists because galaxies behave as if they have more mass that we can not see; however, it could be any mater that we can not seem to detect. Since we detect mater by measuring the effect is has on light, it would stand to reason that dark mater does not interact with light. Explanations for dark mater range from the mundane such as a lot of brown dwarfs (very small dim stars) to the bizarre such as non-baryonic mater (mater that is incapable of interacting with light).
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No, this isn't right. We don't really know what dark matter is. What we do know, though, is it has the same properties as "visible" matter, and that it comprises most of the universe.
All matter that doesn't shine is named "dark" for obvious reasons.
Only source of light - not visible one, but all EM-waves human is able to register - is star. Others are either dim or little-studied (if not theoretical).
Stars make about a fifth of galaxy's mass. Other belongs to dark matter.
I've stated only examples of this matter.
dark mater does not interact with light
Wut?
Anyway, why in the universe a weak Gensokyo's youkai would use a galaxy's ballast matter?
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Is it possible to explain how manipulation of time can get a larger interior?
It is wrong to say that in the general relativity time axis is the same as space ones, since it behaves in another way, e.g. in vector's square's formula square of "time projection" has sign different to squares of "space projections" (like V2 = - t2 + x2 + y2 + z2).
So, first explanation coming to mind - Sakuya's powers aren't bounded by just time. We can also remember that her time distortions are perfectly located in space.
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Wut?
It's in the first sentence of the wikipedia page. It even has it's own peer reviewed reference.
evidently it neither emits nor absorbs light or other electromagnetic radiation at any significant level.
Anyway, why in the universe a weak Gensokyo's youkai would use a galaxy's ballast matter?
There's really nothing wrong with using dark mater. We already know that's it's a thing, the problem is that we can't go and get a sample. In nay case the fact that dark mater is dark because it is hard to see, not because it creates darkness, makes it the exact opposite of what Rumia would need.
So the thing with Suika is that it's easy to imagine either or mass or volume keeping constant; however, there is nothing saying that she can't manipulate the two freely. For example if she doubles her density she could be halving her volume and keeping her mass constant; however she could also be quartering her volume and halving her mass.
Something else that's worth thinking about is that she has a gourd filled with a creature that can turn water into sake, at a rediculous ratio. This means that she has a huge amount of mass which she can use to balance out her volume in any bodily conversion.
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blah
'Sides, that's also assuming their powers work on a physical level rather than the much more fun idea that they're conceptual in nature to begin with.
But the whole idea of this thread is to explain how their abilities work from a scientific point of view, so explicit definitions of their properties are kinda needed... :derp:
Rumia has the power to remove light, but bear in mind that it's impossible to cause light to just "disappear" into thin air. To do that you must transform it into other forms of energy that's not luminous (eg. kinetic energy) or convert it into mass (the famous e=mc^2 relationship). The former kind of transformation is actually practical, try picturing a solar panel or a plant going through photosynthesis. Otherwise, a black-hole is something that converts energy into mass.
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How can you explain Seiga's power to go through the things?
How about the power of Yoshika to eat anything? A dark hole in her stomach?
Don't try to find logic in magic :V
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How can you explain Seiga's power to go through the things?
Her hairpin creates a physical hole in walls for her to pass through. She doesn't actually become intangible.
How about the power of Yoshika to eat anything? A dark hole in her stomach?
Teeth made of incredibly strong material (to be able to chew anything), inability to feel pain, very quick regeneration (to allow her to eat sharp or poisonous things without dying... again), and the most efficient digestive tract ever (to completely breakdown everything she ingests and absorb it fully).
Don't try to find logic in magic :V
"Logic" does not mean "scientific explanation". For instance, youkai are a manifestation of humanity's fear, so it's logical for them to grow stronger the more they are feared. Something is only "illogical" if it's entirely arbitrary.
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So the thing with Suika is that it's easy to imagine either or mass or volume keeping constant; however, there is nothing saying that she can't manipulate the two freely. For example if she doubles her density she could be halving her volume and keeping her mass constant; however she could also be quartering her volume and halving her mass.
Ah, thank you. That was the explanation I was looking for.
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But the whole idea of this thread is to explain how their abilities work from a scientific point of view, so explicit definitions of their properties are kinda needed... :derp:
I'm just saying that "manipulation of darkness" is not conceptually wrong (in fact, "conceptually" is pretty much the only modifier that makes it undeniably valid, other than "thematically" or something similar), and that "manipulation of light" is completely misleading, unless you append clarifications that make it equivalent to darkness anyway. It's like if you ask someone what they had for dinner, and they answered "food"; it's technically valid, and the given set includes the desired answer, but it also includes a lot of data that would actually be an incorrect answer which obfuscates it more than a more specific answer would (nested analogy: like answering a game of "guess the number" with "it's contained somewhere in Pi"). I simply find it hard to reconcile the idea of "correct" correllating to a less informative, more general super concept.
Your actual explanation I'm fine with, and TBH seems more interesting than a general black field of blackness.
Rumia has the power to remove light, but bear in mind that it's impossible to cause light to just "disappear" into thin air. To do that you must transform it into other forms of energy that's not luminous (eg. kinetic energy)
She turns light into sound energy in the form of her theme music. Also, she follows the player characters throughout the rest of the entire series, just offscreen, playing theme music for stages and fights and whatnot.
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Yeah I get what you mean. Like "sunrise" is much more convenient word to use than the phrase "the Earth spinning", since it gives you a better idea of what's happening, although techincally the sun doesn't rise. Anyway I wouldn't stress too much on the wording, let it be light, darkness or whatever suits you. The theory behind is what I am really interested in.
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Well, Suika is oni. Oni normally have the colossal strength.
Shattering the heavens is a bit different from having colossal strength. I don't think strength alone can allow you to shatter the heavens.
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how was she able to shatter the heavens?
This was actually answered in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red on the page about Suika
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Suika
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...Doesn't that explain how she broke the moon, rather than how she broke the heavens?
In fact, the next line is "I understood how she'd broken the Moon, but it was unclear how she'd managed to shatter the heavens."
Maybe she just dispersed the heavens rather than applying ridiculous amounts of force, which had the same result since the scattered remnants couldn't reflect the moon as a whole, and then gathered it back up afterwards. It would fit the description in that passage, and she did imply it was done through some usage of her gathering-diffusing shtick.
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Shattering the heavens is a bit different from having colossal strength. I don't think strength alone can allow you to shatter the heavens.
Oh.
Seems you don't know Ilya Muromets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Muromets) good.
His strength was given by volhves. In that episode, Ilya was forced to drink water enchanted by them. After second ladle, he feeled the strength compared to oni's: "I feel like I can turn the Earth upside-down." Then volhves gave him third ladle, and his strength was reduced to just great.
How can you explain Seiga's power to go through the things?
Her hairpin can do spacewarp holes through solid masses.
How about the power of Yoshika to eat anything? A dark hole in her stomach?
Anti-matter! :V
Don't try to find logic in magic :V
Cool magic always has a strong system comparable with physics.
That's the difference between a fairy tale magic and a proper one. Latter has determined laws which cannot be broken in bounds of that magic.
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Seems you don't know Ilya Muromets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Muromets) good.
His strength was given by volhves. In that episode, Ilya was forced to drink water enchanted by them. After second ladle, he feeled the strength compared to oni's: "I feel like I can turn the Earth upside-down." Then volhves gave him third ladle, and his strength was reduced to just great.
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Cool magic always has a strong system comparable with physics.
That's the difference between a fairy tale magic and a proper one. Latter has determined laws which cannot be broken in bounds of that magic.
First you proudly referenced an example of pre-modern magic, and then immediately said they are not as cool as modern fantasy fiction magic, because they don't have strong systems. That's a bit inconsistent ;) .
Touhou has always been making use of both pre-modern magic and fantasy fiction magic, sometimes even playing with the distinction between them. Much of what happens in Touhou can be understood as "fairy tale magic" that doesn't need any explanation, yet from time to time we do get absurdly detailed explanations of how things work.
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I sure ZUN have some principles standing behind all kinds of magic in Gensokyo. At least he should determine how they must interact.
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I sure ZUN have some principles standing behind all kinds of magic in Gensokyo. At least he should determine how they must interact.
I rather think he does not.
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Ok, so here's one to think about, Komachi. All kinds of nice stuff here. She can change the distances between things and uses this power to make trips across the Senzu river reflect the crimes of whoever she is ferrying.
First of all, how does this power manifest. I see a few possobilities. If you are holding a 12 inch ruler and you are space dialated twice as long by Komachi, how long will the ruler be?
The first possobility is that you wouldn't see the ruler because once the building blocks of creation are seperated by twice the distance that they normally are, you became a whole new kind of dead, along with the ruler. This is pretty boring so lets try a diffrent answer.
12 inches. This is because when space stretches those building blocks of creation are also stretched and so everything built on those blocks, is streated. This includes the ruler, along with your head, eye, and light traveling from the ruler to your eye. I'll be focusing on this scenario.
So everything within the dialation looks the same but what about outside the dialation. One possobility is that everything looks the same because as you or anything else (light) passes from normal space to the dialated space, it too becomes dialated (being within space, and all). So doesn't this render Komachi's power useless? To an extent, yes. Unless Komachi has some mechanism by which to ignore spacial dialations. With such an ability her powers become very useful. She can compress space in front of her and them walk into it and appear to grow in size.
This leads us to our final part of the scenario. Consider the ruler, now held by Komachi. After dialating space by 2 she leaves her dialated space while ignoring space dialations, causing her and the ruler to grow. The ruler is now 24 inches long. However, note that the situation could be worked out to the same effect if Komachi had just dialated the universe by 1/2 causing everything else to shrink in comparison to the constantly sized Komachi.
Now lets move onto Komachi, when doing her job. Komachi sees her target, a distance away from her. She dialates space between her sand her target she perpares to ignore space dialations and raises her weapon. Now lets for a second believe that Komachi uses a Naginata instead of a scyth. She swings her Naginata through dialated space and her target's head is removed by what appears to him to be a very long blade (not that he has much time to care). A fine kill but Komachi does not use a Naginata. As many of you might know, the possition of a scythe's blade makes a bad weapon but Komachi his it a little diffrent. Consider that when Komachi swings her scythe, because she ignores space dialations her blade goes around her victim even though he is a distance away. When the blade is in front of him and Komachi, she can pull the blade toward herself through dialated space. The blade travels the distance between the reach of her weapon and her body in a certain time. However, while the pole is in undialated space, the blade travels through undialated space and both have to reach body at the same time so the blade travels many times faster through dialated space, amassing much more momentum when finally hitting her target. The conclusion is that Komachi's attacks are more deadly at long range.
One last thing to consider. What if Komachi just let her blade sit in front of her. Instead of pulling the blade, why not undialate the space? Now her targets neck will try to expand into an area occupied by her blade unless it moves out of the way. While this may increase the cutting power of her blade, because we have no idea on how fast she can dialate or undialate space, we can not predict how much more effective this would be. However, it does mean that Komachi can effectively kill, without moveing her weapon and instead just dialating space around it.
Some problems are that I feel like I'm missing something in my idea here. Something about Komachi reaching around enemies with her scyth doesn't seem quite right. I'm sure there might also be some issues with the blade speeding up through the dialated space and then not comming out the side a the same time. For one thing, if the blade gains momentum in the space, does it still have that momentum when it comes out? Would that momentum break the pole and send the blade flying into Komachi's face? Maybe?
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Ok, so here's one to think about, Komachi. All kinds of nice stuff here. She can change the distances between things and uses this power to make trips across the Senzu river reflect the crimes of whoever she is ferrying.
First of all, how does this power manifest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Consequences_derived_from_the_Lorentz_transformation
Time dilation.
Length contraction.
ZUN is a clever guy, isn't he?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Consequences_derived_from_the_Lorentz_transformation
Time dilation.
Length contraction.
ZUN is a clever guy, isn't he?
What are you addressing here. I might be missing something but approaching the speed of light, is not going to make crossing the river any longer. Yes I'm sure relativity comes into play here somewhere but I don't know enough to say how (which is why I didn't touch on it in my post).
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What are you addressing here. I might be missing something but approaching the speed of light, is not going to make crossing the river any longer. Yes I'm sure relativity comes into play here somewhere but I don't know enough to say how (which is why I didn't touch on it in my post).
I don't know if Komachi actually uses relativity for making trips longer, but its equations can give you an idea of what is going in the distorted space.
However, there's also another explanation for it - human's perception. Komachi just makes a dead to feel like they was floating for long period.
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However, there's also another explanation for it - human's perception. Komachi just makes a dead to feel like they was floating for long period.
I am pretty sure it is not just perception. You can see Komachi teleport herself and her opponent in the fighting games. You can also see how she can put up a field that causes you to not be able to move out of there that easily.
Would that momentum break the pole and send the blade flying into Komachi's face? Maybe?
Why would the blade even hit her if her ability is distance manipulation. She could just make the blade fly elsewhere.
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An extra spatial dimension would be my thing. It doesn't take her (or anything else in normal space, really) any extra effort to do anything through the stretched space, the space can be stretched and unstretched without any artifacts that might occur from other "explanations", and it does directly tie in to reality so it isn't just a perception trick. The speed of light would restrict the propagation of movement regardless, but if the movement/bending is manipulated through another spatial dimension then a movement/space bend may seem as though it were done imperceptibly quickly. It might account for apparent warping in Soku. The length of the Sanzu would also have to asymptotically approach an equivalent crossing at light speed. And junk.
I sure ZUN have some principles standing behind all kinds of magic in Gensokyo. At least he should determine how they must interact.
ZUN has incredibly detailed explanations for some things and essentially no explanation for others. If things need to interact in a significant way then it can be explored further but isn't necessarily the case. It suffices to just say "it's magic dwi"; there does not need to be an explanation for anything. Having what we do have is pretty great in itself. He has said that many inner workings of Gensokyo are in his head and generally they won't be revealed, so perhaps he has more explanations than you may think, and there are definite sorts of principles and standards that he uses when defining new characters and locations and whatnot. But in no way does he have to determine how they interact besides maybe a "this happens just because". He isn't required to satisfy any random fan's demand for an in-universe explanation for some event that he never thought of writing about in the first place. He's probably been asked these sorts of questions in interviews and just makes it up on the spot.
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I don't know if Komachi actually uses relativity for making trips longer, but its equations can give you an idea of what is going in the distorted space.
However, there's also another explanation for it - human's perception. Komachi just makes a dead to feel like they was floating for long period.
I'm not sure they're relevant at all since those equations can't allow space to expand.
Also if it is a perception thing then I'll be disappointed.
I am pretty sure it is not just perception. You can see Komachi teleport herself and her opponent in the fighting games. You can also see how she can put up a field that causes you to not be able to move out of there that easily.
Why would the blade even hit her if her ability is distance manipulation. She could just make the blade fly elsewhere.
Well, I don't know if she can make stuff turn but you're right she can just give the blade space to slow down.
That is a good question though. If there is wall with a thin tunnel that turns on it's way to the other side, can she still get through the tunnel?
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Here's something I theorycrafted somewhere else, about Aya's speed:
Theory has it that if Aya is faster than Youmu, and Youmu can do 100 Yojuna in one slash, then Aya's top speed is at least 1/4 light speed.
299,792,458 m/s = speed of light
/4 = 74,948,114.5 m/s *Theoretical MINIMUM top speed*, also known as Mach 220,247
That's multiple times re-entry and escape velocity. To put into perspective, if for some reason Aya was on the Sun, she could escape it's gravity with ease. Let's ignore the fact she's be KFTengu.
Put simply, Aya is pretty much incomprehensibly fast. She also very, very rarely goes at top speed... simply because at those sorts of speeds... she's cause utter devastation. Not to mention she wouldn't be able to keep those speeds up for long without burning herself to a crisp from air friction
Aya probably can't go anywhere near Mach 10 without harming herself, regardless of how well adapted she is, and Mach 20+ would carry the severe risk of... catching fire, since that's re-entry speed. Her top speed may well be the highest, but that dosen't mean she can achieve it without becoming a fireball. [Or being in space, but that has it's own problems]
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Perhaps Aya's ability to manipulate wind can be used to negate air friction, allowing her to fly at higher speed also preventing her from catching on fire. Of course she'll need to have superhuman reflexes if she doesn't want to bump into every tree in her way..
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It's assumed she flies above the trees though.
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You're still gonna run into things when going that fast.
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I'm sure Aya's brain is fast enough to maintain that speed.
Raikaria, what time did you got for the slash?
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Raikaria, what time did you got for the slash?
I'd like to know this too. First of all, the spell card is called "200 Yojana in 1 Slash" so maybe your figure needs doubling. The wikia mentions your same answer and sites a doujin, Touhou Kaidan Seven #3, as it's source. Unfortunately I can't find a translated copy of it. The wikia also mentions the speed Mach 70 but with similarly poor work.
One thing that kind of confuses me about the whole premise of "200 Yojana in 1 Slash" is what is being slashed. Surely you're not slashing something in front of you, not if it's 1200 to 3000 kilometers away. It would only make sense to me if you approach for that distance and then actually slash at the last moment. I guess the idea is that she's so fast she can just hold the sword next to her and cut things in passing.
If someone wants to try and find the time it takes for a samurai to slash then we could figure this whole thing out for ourselves.
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"In one slash" probably refers to Youmu's instant movement from one side of the screen to the other, rather than slashing something far away. In this case, what's being slashed doesn't matter, it's her being able to move that far in the time it takes for her to slash once.
Also, 200 yojana in one slash. The actual length of one yojana is pretty vague, but a smaller measure would be 10km. The important part however is how fast the sword slash is, since this can vary pretty wildly and would drastically affect the speed. Assuming one slash takes 1/3 of a second, this is 10000*3*200 m/s = 6000000m/s = 1/50 the speed of light. If the slash takes something more like 1/30 of a second it changes it to 1/5 the speed of light. It's pretty much some arbitrary fraction of the speed of light dependent on how fast you assume Youmu is, which itself makes the exercise redundant because you've already determined how fast she is.
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Well, I don't know if she can make stuff turn but you're right she can just give the blade space to slow down.
Her ability is distance manipulation. If she can manipulate distance, there is no reason to believe she can only manipulate that distance in what I guess is would be the X plane(the object going towards you and away from you) from the blade to her, instead of being able to manipulate the distance in all 3 planes, X(towards and away), Y(upwards and downwards), and Z(sideways). What I mean is there is no reason to believe that she can only manipulate distance from point A to point B in a straight line. Who is to say she can't manipulate Point B upwards and towards, in addition to forwards and backwards or sideways?
Not to mention she wouldn't be able to keep those speeds up for long without burning herself to a crisp from air friction
Aya's a youkai... Her physical nature is different from a humans. Whether she burns or not can be contested.
Theory has it that if Aya is faster than Youmu, and Youmu can do 100 Yojuna in one slash, then Aya's top speed is at least 1/4 light speed.
Aya and Remilia are likely faster than Youmu. The prior, because her boast and it was uncontested by anyone. The latter, because of Youmu's comments that against a fast opponent Yuyuko says one must close one's eyes. Youmu, unfortunately, did not understand the reasoning behind closing one's eyes. Youmu only makes this comment to Remilia in vs mode.
Also, 200 yojana in one slash.
How come her spell card isn't translated to 200 Yojana in a Flash?
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Because 一閃 is a (more or less anime-used) term used denoting a quick sword slash, usually also done in iaido-esque fashion. Saying that it could be "in a flash" is nearly the same thing as my pointing out that "in one slash" means a length of time and nothing more.
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When I read Suika "breaking the heavens" interview, I understood that she interfered with the density of the atmosphere over Gensokyo. When you change the density of a medium, you change how light refracts through it, as in this classical phenomenon:
(http://www.andybrain.com/sciencelab/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/straw-refraction.jpg)
Now picture this being made chaotically all over the sky. The result is that the form of the moon seems to "break". She probably can't say exactly what she's doing (Suika and Aya don't look exactly scientifically minded) so she says what she knows, that she somehow "broke the heaven".
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Her ability is distance manipulation. If she can manipulate distance, there is no reason to believe she can only manipulate that distance in what I guess is would be the X plane(the object going towards you and away from you) from the blade to her, instead of being able to manipulate the distance in all 3 planes, X(towards and away), Y(upwards and downwards), and Z(sideways). What I mean is there is no reason to believe that she can only manipulate distance from point A to point B in a straight line. Who is to say she can't manipulate Point B upwards and towards, in addition to forwards and backwards or sideways?
I guess.
How come her spell card isn't translated to 200 Yojana in a Flash?
Ask the wiki I guess. Spell Card 74 in PCB.
When I read Suika "breaking the heavens" interview, I understood that she interfered with the density of the atmosphere over Gensokyo. When you change the density of a medium, you change how light refracts through it, as in this classical phenomenon:
(http://www.andybrain.com/sciencelab/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/straw-refraction.jpg)
Now picture this being made chaotically all over the sky. The result is that the form of the moon seems to "break". She probably can't say exactly what she's doing (Suika and Aya don't look exactly scientifically minded) so she says what she knows, that she somehow "broke the heaven".
Very cool idea. I should point out that density is only only generally associated with the index of refraction so who knows but it's still pretty clever.
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The actual length of one yojana is pretty vague, but a smaller measure would be 10km.
Merry says about 7km.
"And 'yojana' is a measure of distance?"
"Yes, it's a unit of length from ancient India. One yojana is about seven kilometers, so forty thousand yojana would be about two hundred eighty thousand kilometers. <...>"
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In that case it's a better reference of what ZUN uses than simply guessing. Of course, in-story Mary wouldn't really know whether it was 7km or 15km either, but if ZUN uses 7km in one case it's better off to use that for others. Of course, what I noted about sword slash speed still holds; the difference between 10km and 7km is on the same order rather than an order of tens or hundreds.
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Now picture this being made chaotically all over the sky. The result is that the form of the moon seems to "break". She probably can't say exactly what she's doing (Suika and Aya don't look exactly scientifically minded) so she says what she knows, that she somehow "broke the heaven".
I don't think that would be accurate. Suika mentions that she shattered the heavens, so that she can break the moon. It isn't like the result of shattering the heavens is the moon looking like it is being broken, which is what this explanation would imply.
Because 一閃 is a (more or less anime-used) term used denoting a quick sword slash, usually also done in iaido-esque fashion. Saying that it could be "in a flash" is nearly the same thing as my pointing out that "in one slash" means a length of time and nothing more.
I see, so that is why it is translated to that.
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I don't think that would be accurate. Suika mentions that she shattered the heavens, so that she can break the moon. It isn't like the result of shattering the heavens is the moon looking like it is being broken, which is what this explanation would imply.
So one reason I havn't thought about this is because it makes no sense. What is the result of "shattering the heavens".
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I don't think that would be accurate. Suika mentions that she shattered the heavens, so that she can break the moon. It isn't like the result of shattering the heavens is the moon looking like it is being broken, which is what this explanation would imply.
You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~
Whatever Suika did, it was an atmospheric phenomenon. The actual Moon is full of super-powerful humans and gods that probably can do something against their world being shattered against their will.
While Oni can't lie, they can surely boast or simply misunderstand the physics of what they did. Suika used an incorrect analogy there. She compared the sky with a lake's surface. If the water is calm the moon's reflection appears perfect. But if you cause waves, the reflection "breaks".
Now there's also the possibility that the sky on touhouverse works exactly as a lake's surface and "reflects" the moon, but whenever possible, I like to think physics there work as here, and magic works by interfering with the actual physics laws. So Suika messed with refraction, not reflection. Her analogy, while not perfect, was good enough for Aya's article. The oni messed with the medium through which moonlight arrives on Gensokyo and as the result the moon's image broke.
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Whatever Suika did, it was an atmospheric phenomenon. The actual Moon is full of super-powerful humans and gods that probably can do something against their world being shattered against their will.
No, you misunderstand. The point I was making is that Suika mentions it as a two step process. If it were actually an atmospheric phenomenon, it would simply be a 1 step process and shattering the heavens would result in breaking the moon. But that is not the case here.
In the first place, it isn't their moon that is being shattered. Their moon is kind of like Gensokyo, protected by a barrier, so it is in a sense in a different dimension. The moon that Suika shattered would be the moon in the real world.
So one reason I havn't thought about this is because it makes no sense. What is the result of "shattering the heavens".
Have you seen One Piece? Did you see what White Beard did to the air? I presume what Suika did was similar to that. She applied overwhelming force to split the heavens in half. So, instead of "air" there, it results in "nothing" in between the moon and her location. Then, breaking it would be easy, or so she says.
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I'm gonna try contributing to the thread with something.
Not sure if someone said something similar already...... but it's about Cirno's StB Freeze Sign "Minus K"
I suppose the letter K stands for "Kelvin", which is a temperature measurement unit. For this Scale, Absolute Zero (the theoretical lowest possible temperature) is achieved at 0K, or "Zero Kelvin"
I think Zun was trying to make Cirno look badass by going even lower than absolute zero with this spell. Said temperature itself being unable to be achieved (and technically impossible to be achieved by any means) even by the Boomerang Nebula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_Nebula), which is the coldest place in the universe, with a temperature of −272 ?C, which is only 1 ?C warmer than absolute zero (The equivalent of 1K in Kelvin terms). However... since Kelvin is an absolute, thermodynamic temperature scale system, a truly negative temperature with said scale is hotter than any other system with a positive temperature. (i.e... Celsius, Fahrenheit... etc)
So..... would that mean that Cirno can increase temperature and make the surroundings hotter as well...?
.........I really don't think so. Because Zun explicitly stated "FREEZE sign" so... she is still freezing things, right...? In that case, that was just a slip from his part, I guess.
For more details: Negative Temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature)
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So..... would that mean that Cirno can increase temperature and make the surroundings hotter as well...?
.........I really don't think so. Because Zun explicitly stated "FREEZE sign" so... she is still freezing things, right...? In that case, that was just a slip from his part, I guess.
For more details: Negative Temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature)
I assume you're right, Cirno's ability is manipulation of chill after all stated by PMiSS.
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Did you see what White Beard did to the air?
I think that can also be explained by the whole index of refraction thing. White Beard creates pressure waves which would change the index of refraction of the air, which might create a shattered effect. As for the whole two step process... I dunno...
I'm gonna try contributing to the thread with something.
Not sure if someone said something similar already...... but it's about Cirno's StB Freeze Sign "Minus K"
I suppose the letter K stands for "Kelvin", which is a temperature measurement unit. For this Scale, Absolute Zero (the theoretical lowest possible temperature) is achieved at 0K, or "Zero Kelvin"
I think Zun was trying to make Cirno look badass by going even lower than absolute zero with this spell. Said temperature itself being unable to be achieved (and technically impossible to be achieved by any means) even by the Boomerang Nebula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boomerang_Nebula), which is the coldest place in the universe, with a temperature of −272 ?C, which is only 1 ?C warmer than absolute zero (The equivalent of 1K in Kelvin terms). However... since Kelvin is an absolute, thermodynamic temperature scale system, a truly negative temperature with said scale is hotter than any other system with a positive temperature. (i.e... Celsius, Fahrenheit... etc)
So..... would that mean that Cirno can increase temperature and make the surroundings hotter as well...?
.........I really don't think so. Because Zun explicitly stated "FREEZE sign" so... she is still freezing things, right...? In that case, that was just a slip from his part, I guess.
For more details: Negative Temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_temperature)
Calling ZUN a liar is dangerous territory. In my opinion it's much more likely that Cirno lied about the name of her card, rather then the god of all creation being wrong about something.
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Calling ZUN a liar is dangerous territory. In my opinion it's much more likely that Cirno lied about the name of her card, rather then the god of all creation being wrong about something.
Nobody is perfect.
And besides, when did I call Zun a liar? I said it was a "slip" everyone commits slips every now and then, and this is fact. There's no such a thing as "perfection" anywhere. It doesn't matter who you are.
Like any other series, Touhou can also have some flaws/holes. It's not really a negative point. Rather, it's a natural thing.
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Cirno is baka, ZUN is not. Just deal with it. :3
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Cirno is baka, ZUN is not. Just deal with it. :3
Very well.
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Nobody is perfect.
And besides, when did I call Zun a liar? I said it was a "slip" everyone commits slips every now and then, and this is fact. There's no such a thing as "perfection" anywhere. It doesn't matter who you are.
Like any other series, Touhou can also have some flaws/holes. It's not really a negative point. Rather, it's a natural thing.
I think that might have been sarcasm :V
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I think that might have been sarcasm :V
Maybeeeee........... maybe not. :V
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Nobody is perfect.
And besides, when did I call Zun a liar? I said it was a "slip" everyone commits slips every now and then, and this is fact. There's no such a thing as "perfection" anywhere. It doesn't matter who you are.
Like any other series, Touhou can also have some flaws/holes. It's not really a negative point. Rather, it's a natural thing.
The problem is that if we start to consider Zun as errant, the entire Touhou universe falls apart. In the same way that if we start to consider our observations as errant, the entire universe falls apart. If I remember correctly, Kepler, while making his model of the solar system with circular orbits, came to a model that had only around 10% error. He could have wrapped his work up there and accepted the model; however, he chose to adhere to the observations and thus created Elliptical orbits which were later independently confirmed by other methods. ZUN is the most trusted source of Touhou knowledge we have, if we question him on this point then we must question him on all points. For example, how did Suika break the heavens? She didn't, ZUN just messed up. End of discussion. The last important point is why can we trust ZUN to give us accurate information on Touhou? Well, we really can't since he is currently our only independent source of information. This entire community is founded with an asterisks noting "Assuming that ZUN gives correct information about Touhou".
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The problem is that if we start to consider Zun as errant, the entire Touhou universe falls apart.
I hope you're aware that this affirmation can only be applied to Touhou universe right? If that's the case, then yes, everything he says is true, because he is the one that's shaping the world of touhou. But the same can't apply to our real world's theories or myths. Because it was not Zun that shaped them. A negative Kelvin temperature is still hot, and it won't become cold just because Zun said so. If it's in Gensokyo, however, then it would be fair enough if we consider the place might use different physics than the one from our world. Otherwise, we'd still really have to blindly trust him even if he were to say that our Earth is flat, or if Jesus originally came from an east Asian religion...? Just because he is the "God of all creation" ...? That's not how stuff works. And no, a whole universe won't fall apart just because of one or two slips.
For example, how did Suika break the heavens? She didn't, ZUN just messed up. End of discussion.
Well, if this can be applied to Suika's case, then why can't it be applied to what I said earlier ago as well...? Because Zun is such a Self-Righteous person that he can only "mess up" a single time in his life, and everything else he says whatsoever is automatically true, even outside Touhou's universe...? Please, redo your thoughts.
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Put simply, Aya is pretty much incomprehensibly fast. She also very, very rarely goes at top speed... simply because at those sorts of speeds... she's cause utter devastation. Not to mention she wouldn't be able to keep those speeds up for long without burning herself to a crisp from air friction
Aya probably can't go anywhere near Mach 10 without harming herself, regardless of how well adapted she is, and Mach 20+ would carry the severe risk of... catching fire, since that's re-entry speed. Her top speed may well be the highest, but that dosen't mean she can achieve it without becoming a fireball. [Or being in space, but that has it's own problems]
The SR-71 flew at Mach 3.2; at this speed, the aircraft's skin was heated well in excess of 300 ?C, and it was still hotter than this upon landing. The SR-71's cockpit needed a powerful air conditioner to protect the occupants from this heat.
Perhaps Aya's ability to manipulate wind can be used to negate air friction, allowing her to fly at higher speed also preventing her from catching on fire. Of course she'll need to have superhuman reflexes if she doesn't want to bump into every tree in her way..
Even if skin friction is removed, there is still wave drag and the associated temperature rises to consider.
Given that Aya isn't exactly aerodynamic, even just Mach 1.3 is really pushing it, with temperatures in excess of at least 75 ?C (and that's assuming that Aya is as remotely aerodynamic as a 30? wedge or cone, which she isn't). The calculator I used to determine this is found here. (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/shock.html)
Considering this, one could possibly conclude that Aya is immune to heat and can somehow maintain function in such high temperatures, or that the properties of fluids are different in Gensokyo (i.e. it's magic and nobody has to explain shit).
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Wait what. The Spell Card is "Minus K". The very notion that you can't have negative Kelvins is the reason for the spell to be named that. It's Cirno. She isn't that bright. That's the point. You don't even need to get to "what if ZUN was wrong". Really, he has made flubs on detailed points before, but even if this were a flub it changes literally nothing about Gensokyo or its consistency.
Magic: Reading the wiki article you posted, it should be affirmed that the contexts of using "minus K" are quite different, so I don't think it's fair to say that there's an error just because the card is called Minus K. Particularly what's said in the lead paragraph: "That a system at negative temperature is hotter than any system at positive temperature is paradoxical if absolute temperature is interpreted as an average internal energy of the system. The paradox is resolved by understanding temperature through its more rigorous definition as the tradeoff between energy and entropy, with the reciprocal of the temperature, thermodynamic beta, as the more fundamental quantity." It's more than likely ZUN isn't aware of an actual definition of negative absolute temperature, but even if he was aware, pointing out that negative absolute temperature of a system is actually hot sounds like more of a side-note than a discrepancy.
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Considering this, one could possibly conclude that Aya is immune to heat and can somehow maintain function in such high temperatures, or that the properties of fluids are different in Gensokyo (i.e. it's magic and nobody has to explain shit).
I think you are missing my meaning. Aya is a Youkai. Their physiology is functionally different from a human's. For example, Okuu is a Hell Raven and Rin is a Kasha, both can easily function at temperatures way beyond what is normal. They can most likely survive at over 500 degrees Celsius. It is not that Aya is immune to heat, it is more on the lines that Aya isn't human and she doesn't have the same temperature range as a human.
Take for example, when Reimu fights Okuu, you can probably assume temperatures of 200 degrees Celsius and beyond, as they are in the Hell of Blazing Fires and it is very hot there, in addition to Okuu's power up, which makes that area even hotter. How does Reimu survive that? Probably some kind of magic barrier.
I think that can also be explained by the whole index of refraction thing. White Beard creates pressure waves which would change the index of refraction of the air, which might create a shattered effect. As for the whole two step process... I dunno...
It is a 2 step process, because that is how Suika described it. She mentions after shattering the heavens, you can then get to the moon and break it. Now, some things to note for reference. Youmu can steal spring and she is no where near Suika's level of skill. Also, Yukari can do some pretty interesting things with her boundary magic and Suika and Yukari are equals as far as dialogue goes. What I am saying is that there is not much reason to believe an alternate explanation when the normal one makes sense.
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It's more likely Cirno being Cirno and calling her spellcard something that's impossible because she's the ⑨. She thinks there is such a thing as Minus Kelvin, but there is not.
StB is also after PoFV, so it could legitimately be ZUN playing up the ⑨ gag.
The only physics at work is how stupid Cirno is.
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It's more likely Cirno being Cirno and calling her spellcard something that's impossible because she's the ⑨. She thinks there is such a thing as Minus Kelvin, but there is not.
StB is also after PoFV, so it could legitimately be ZUN playing up the ⑨ gag.
The only physics at work is how stupid Cirno is.
I told you so~ ^o^
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It is a 2 step process, because that is how Suika described it. She mentions after shattering the heavens, you can then get to the moon and break it. What I am saying is that there is not much reason to believe an alternate explanation when the normal one makes sense.
Could you qoute the part where she says it's a two-step process? If it's this part:
Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~
that can be interpreted as a result of the action of tearing open the heavens, like saying "It's easy to break a vase if you drop it off a cliff".
(As an aside, when you mentioned the "moon in the real world", did you mean the actual physical moon sans lunarians and the sea and whatnot, or the reflection?
Destroying the actual, legitimate moon wouldn't make a lick of sense)
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that can be interpreted as a result of the action of tearing open the heavens, like saying "It's easy to break a vase if you drop it off a cliff".
Why is that the same? If you drop it off the cliff, there is no implication that you could do the action of breaking it.
Yes, I am referring to that quote, where Suika says: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.
(As an aside, when you mentioned the "moon in the real world", did you mean the actual physical moon sans lunarians and the sea and whatnot, or the reflection?
Destroying the actual, legitimate moon wouldn't make a lick of sense)
Yes, I do mean the physical moon we see in the real world. The Lunarian side of the moon is surrounded by some sort of barrier, which can only been seen through a reflection, as Maribel puts it.
Why doesn't it make sense for Suika to destroy the moon? It isn't like she cannot just dissipate the moon with her ability or something similar. In any case, here is a quote of what happened from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red:
Aya: On the ○○○th of ○○○, I became aware that the Moon had suddenly and silently exploded.
Although this was a major event, it occurred so late at night that most people never realized it happened.
The Moon quietly scattered out across the sky, and its countless glimmering fragments descended to the Earth.
Before long, the fragments thinned out like mist, and then gathered together again to reform the full moon....
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Why is that the same? If you drop it off the cliff, there is no implication that you could do the action of breaking it.
Yes, I am referring to that quote, where Suika says: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.
Neither is there any indiciation Suika can actually destroy the moon, rather than its reflection, which is explicitly what she is doing.
Ragardless, I would argue that the fact that the vase breaks as a direct result of your actions qualifies as breaking it. It's no different from doing the same by swinging at it with a hammer.
Yes, I do mean the physical moon we see in the real world. The Lunarian side of the moon is surrounded by some sort of barrier, which can only been seen through a reflection, as Maribel puts it.
Why doesn't it make sense for Suika to destroy the moon? It isn't like she cannot just dissipate the moon with her ability or something similar. In any case, here is a quote of what happened from Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red:
Aya: On the ○○○th of ○○○, I became aware that the Moon had suddenly and silently exploded.
Although this was a major event, it occurred so late at night that most people never realized it happened.
The Moon quietly scattered out across the sky, and its countless glimmering fragments descended to the Earth.
Before long, the fragments thinned out like mist, and then gathered together again to reform the full moon....
Assuming that the destruction of the world your pocket dimension resides on has no effect on said dimension:
- Nobody of note outside Gensokyo apparently noticed the display
- There were no noteworthy effects of the sudden absence of a celestial body with a significant gravitational pull on the earth, such as tidal activity
- There wasn't catastrophic fallout due to giant pieces of space debris impacting the earth
- There wasn't any problem with restoring the moon, despite a good portion of each fragment having burnt apart in entry
- The entire process was utterly silent, despite countless fragments explicitly impacting earth
...and so on, and so forth. Any arguments that I can think up off the top of my head to account for these require so many secondary powers on Suika's part and allowances in general that it would be simpler to claim she got reality drunk on booze. Especially since it was apparently an entierly spur of the moment thing.
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I'm very certain Suika has also fractured the moon in her IAMP "Gensokyo" stage. Didn't someone said in the last IAMP stage something like "what's wrong with the moon?" That's also why the pre-battle music is named "Broken Moon" in the first place. Perhaps everyone is simply too drunk to notice the moon is broken for this incident to be written down in records.
Also, did you ever see the Hakurei Shrine underneath in that stage, and realize the IAMP final battle took place in the air?
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Assuming that the destruction of the world your pocket dimension resides on has no effect on said dimension:
?Nobody of note outside Gensokyo apparently noticed the display
?There were no noteworthy effects of the sudden absence of a celestial body with a significant gravitational pull on the earth, such as tidal activity
?There wasn't catastrophic fallout due to giant pieces of space debris impacting the earth
?There wasn't any problem with restoring the moon, despite a good portion of each fragment having burnt apart in entry
?The entire process was utterly silent, despite countless fragments explicitly impacting earth
...and so on, and so forth. Any arguments that I can think up off the top of my head to account for these require so many secondary powers on Suika's part and allowances in general that it would be simpler to claim she got reality drunk on booze. Especially since it was apparently an entierly spur of the moment thing.
The logical explanations don't matter as much, because there is no point of view from the outside world. The observation was observed by Aya, not Suika, very late at night and it was for a short period.
Also, the moon exploded and many fragments fell into earth. This is the facts we know, according to Aya's observations.
I don't know what the gravitation effects this would have and this gets deeper into science, which may or may not work the same way. Such as how there is oxygen in space on their rocket when Remilia's group was travelling to the moon. Suika can most likely gather both mass and energy, so that is not too relevant whether it was burned up into energy or not. As long as conversion is not lost, which in theory, should not be lost.
I'm very certain Suika has also fractured the moon in her IAMP "Gensokyo" stage. Didn't someone said in the last IAMP stage something like "what's wrong with the moon?" That's also why the pre-battle music is named "Broken Moon" in the first place. Perhaps everyone is simply too drunk to notice the moon is broken for this incident to be written down in records.
That could be the stage when it happened, but that is kind of hard to say.
I believe Immaterial and Missing Power happened in the summer? This explosion is in the winter, February.
Also, did you ever see the Hakurei Shrine underneath in that stage, and realize the IAMP final battle took place in the air?
Is this where it happens? I never realized.
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The BAiJR event of moon-shattering took place in early 2006, and inspired Remilia's second attempt at building a moon rocket. IAMP was in 2004. 2004 also happened to be one of Gensokyo's most turbulent years, with 3 large incidents in a row.
I think it's probable that the IAMP final battle is either some weird intermediate layer in the sky, or a special temporary space created by Suika, due to how strange the stage looks, and one character did say "where's this place", indicating it's not somewhere they are used to seeing. But we have no further evidence than that.
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In Yuyuko's dialog with Yukari and the name of the Final Stage, it could be inferred that Yukari shrunk Gensokyo's border to force Suika out.
Which raises more questions than it can answer.
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Suika was banned from the feast.
Year 2006, huh? Isn't Touhou supposed to take place in near future?
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In Yuyuko's dialog with Yukari and the name of the Final Stage, it could be inferred that Yukari shrunk Gensokyo's border to force Suika out.
Which raises more questions than it can answer.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't she restricting the border encompassing Suika rather than the border of Gensokyo?
That is, Suika had spread herself out so thinly that she was effectively mist, and Yukari simply did the reverse to bring her back into her regular density.
The logical explanations don't matter as much, because there is no point of view from the outside world. The observation was observed by Aya, not Suika, very late at night and it was for a short period.
Also, the moon exploded and many fragments fell into earth. This is the facts we know, according to Aya's observations.
I don't know what the gravitation effects this would have and this gets deeper into science, which may or may not work the same way. Such as how there is oxygen in space on their rocket when Remilia's group was travelling to the moon. Suika can most likely gather both mass and energy, so that is not too relevant whether it was burned up into energy or not. As long as conversion is not lost, which in theory, should not be lost.
I'm operating under the assumption that the in-universe physical laws reflect reality until shown otherwise.
I'm also reasonably sure that things burning is a chemical reaction that can't be reversed simply through gathering or diffusing, so her ability wouldn't really help in that regard. Imagine trying to recreate a book that was burnt to ashes by gathering up the ashes; even if you could get every part to fit perfectly, which is already kinda far fetched, you wouldn't be able to just turn it back into paper.
(As an aside, the whole fragments falling to earth thing could conceivably be the visual result of shattering the heavens and thus disrupting the reflection, so that's not an absolute contradiction.)
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Year 2006, huh? Isn't Touhou supposed to take place in near future?
Only the Sealing Club CD stories take place in near future. Most Touhou stories generally take place in approximately the time they come out, giving you a relatively real-time update of the state of Gensokyo. For games, this often means the same year; for other stories, the same season.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gensokyo_Timeline
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@haoreos:
Let me clarify everything, starting from what Suika said.
You used the example of the vase, but that doesn't make sense in Suika's dialogue, let me use some examples:
If you drop the vase, it would be easier to break it.
I am saying this does not make any sense. If you drop the vase, it either breaks or not, it does not make it easier to break it. The breaking itself is the action, however, when you drop a vase, you either break it or not, it doesn't make it easier to break. Except in the case of the vase being hard, and when you drop it, you know that it will not break and thus it becomes easier to break as force has been applied to it.
Let's take another example:
This vase is made of steel. If I turn this vase into glass, it would be easier to break.
What I am trying to say is the action of breaking is never done on the vase, what you are looking for is the ease of that action. Like, if I find a hammer, it would be easier for me to break the vase. However, it does not make sense to say if I drop this vase, it becomes easier to break. At least logically speaking, I don't see how that makes sense.
(As an aside, the whole fragments falling to earth thing could conceivably be the visual result of shattering the heavens and thus disrupting the reflection, so that's not an absolute contradiction.)
When you refract the light of the atmosphere, it will not give you what Aya observes. You might see the moon look weird as if you are looking it in the water. But it will not shatter and disappear. You will also not see the moon explode and fragments falling to the earth.
I'm operating under the assumption that the in-universe physical laws reflect reality until shown otherwise.
I'm also reasonably sure that things burning is a chemical reaction that can't be reversed simply through gathering or diffusing, so her ability wouldn't really help in that regard. Imagine trying to recreate a book that was burnt to ashes by gathering up the ashes; even if you could get every part to fit perfectly, which is already kinda far fetched, you wouldn't be able to just turn it back into paper.
Laws reflecting reality in universe does not matter, because there is no observation made from the outside world. You don't know what effects Suika's stunt did to the outside world, because there is no perspective on that. The only perspective you see is from Aya's perspective and thus that is the only one you could use. Which is what Aya observed.
So, you could argue that yes, there is a tidle wave which happened shortly after Suika's stunt, or not, but that delves into science which I don't know what the consequences are having gravity suddenly shift like that and then shift back. But the point is, none of that matters, because these observations are not told to us. What could have happened, what did happened do not apply, because none of those events are observed. The only events that are observed are from Aya and from inside Gensokyo.
We also know what else is observed, the fragments falling from the sky to the earth and there was an explosion. Now, the explanation from Aya's observation is that Suika blew up the moon and then regathered it. How she did it, that is something else entirely. And my argument is why make things up, when the standard explanation works?
Now, onto the piece of paper example. If you could covert energy back into mass, which in theory is possible, Suika would be able to change the burnt book back to normal. Either that or Suika can simply gathered different materials together to recreate the moon.
I think it's probable that the IAMP final battle is either some weird intermediate layer in the sky, or a special temporary space created by Suika, due to how strange the stage looks, and one character did say "where's this place", indicating it's not somewhere they are used to seeing. But we have no further evidence than that.
I thought the fight took place in a separate dimension. But I don't think it takes place in the future though. If you use Suika, she seems to pull people to her and it seems like they are in a separate space and only some of them can head back. It seems like for others, Suika has to send them back.
Suika was banned from the feast.
Year 2006, huh? Isn't Touhou supposed to take place in near future?
What cuc said. Touhou lore takes place about the same time as when the games appear.
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@haoreos:
Let me clarify everything, starting from what Suika said.
You used the example of the vase, but that doesn't make sense in Suika's dialogue, let me use some examples:
If you drop the vase, it would be easier to break it.
I am saying this does not make any sense. If you drop the vase, it either breaks or not, it does not make it easier to break it. The breaking itself is the action, however, when you drop a vase, you either break it or not, it doesn't make it easier to break. Except in the case of the vase being hard, and when you drop it, you know that it will not break and thus it becomes easier to break as force has been applied to it.
Let's take another example:
This vase is made of steel. If I turn this vase into glass, it would be easier to break.
What I am trying to say is the action of breaking is never done on the vase, what you are looking for is the ease of that action. Like, if I find a hammer, it would be easier for me to break the vase. However, it does not make sense to say if I drop this vase, it becomes easier to break. At least logically speaking, I don't see how that makes sense.
I'm not entirely sure why you're bringing up the ease of breaking it; are you talking about where she says this?
Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~
You can interpret this sentence in a few ways (the English translation, at least, no idea how unambiguous the original is);
- "If you first tear open the heavens, breaking the reflection of the moon becomes easy"
- "It is easy to tear open the heavens, thus breaking the reflection of the moon"
I'm personally going for the latter. If we do assume the former is the case, though, I'd have to argue against the part of the quote I bolded;
"breaking a vase via dropping it" is easier than "breaking a vase via punching it". Thus, "if I drop this vase, it becomes easier to break" is perfectly valid, because there is an implicit "than it would be to do so otherwise" at the end of the sentence.
Your example of the steel vase isn't quite what I'm talking about, since I'm saying the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break.
When you refract the light of the atmosphere, it will not give you what Aya observes. You might see the moon look weird as if you are looking it in the water. But it will not shatter and disappear. You will also not see the moon explode and fragments falling to the earth.
To be honest, I wouldn't think it would work like that. But eh, if you're taking Suika's abilities to the N'th degree, I figure "she can bend the light so blah" is as compelling a handwave as any, and certainly much more believable than somehow accounting for every problem associated with destroying the physical moon, simultaneously, on a whim.
Laws reflecting reality in universe does not matter, because there is no observation made from the outside world. You don't know what effects Suika's stunt did to the outside world, because there is no perspective on that. The only perspective you see is from Aya's perspective and thus that is the only one you could use. Which is what Aya observed.
So, you could argue that yes, there is a tidle wave which happened shortly after Suika's stunt, or not, but that delves into science which I don't know what the consequences are having gravity suddenly shift like that and then shift back. But the point is, none of that matters, because these observations are not told to us. What could have happened, what did happened do not apply, because none of those events are observed. The only events that are observed are from Aya and from inside Gensokyo.
We also know what else is observed, the fragments falling from the sky to the earth and there was an explosion. Now, the explanation from Aya's observation is that Suika blew up the moon and then regathered it. How she did it, that is something else entirely. And my argument is why make things up, when the standard explanation works?
For one thing, everything on earth not protected by some sort of magichax would be dead, by dint of millions of tons of space debris crashing into earth at a speed fast enough to cross the distance separating the moon and the surface of the earth within the time Aya was watching, kicking up enough dust to blot out the sun and freeze everything, even discounting the ridiculous energy release of the collisions. Since we have Maribel's arc taking place in the future, it's safe enough to say this is not the case.
My point is that the standard explanation doesn't work, because it makes no sense physically or conceptually, unless Suika's abilities work vastly differently to what is implied, or she has a multitude of unmentioned secondary capabilities, or some other such explanation, all of which are less likely than the other common explanation, that it was the reflection that was broken.
Now, onto the piece of paper example. If you could covert energy back into mass, which in theory is possible, Suika would be able to change the burnt book back to normal. Either that or Suika can simply gathered different materials together to recreate the moon.
Pretty sure you can't do that with burnt paper even if you could somehow grab and reposition all the energy, since it's transformed on a subatomic level.
You could arbitrarily decide Suika can individually reposition every particle back to where it was pre-burnage, I suppose, and then scale that explanation up to the moon, but that would force me to conclude that she'd be a bigger mary sue than the lunarians if they suddenly got four additional middle names each and turned out to be descended from the Dragon.
Also, the moon is, what, a quarter of the size of earth? She'd be restricted to grabbing stuff from space, which opens up a whole other can of worms.
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To be honest, I wouldn't think it would work like that. But eh, if you're taking Suika's abilities to the N'th degree, I figure "she can bend the light so blah" is as compelling a handwave as any, and certainly much more believable than somehow accounting for every problem associated with destroying the physical moon, simultaneously, on a whim.
In the fighting games, she can create miniature black holes and whole holes. I am not taking Suika's abilities to the Nth degree, but I am just observing what has been mentioned as to what she could do.
For one thing, everything on earth not protected by some sort of magichax would be dead, by dint of millions of tons of space debris crashing into earth at a speed fast enough to cross the distance separating the moon and the surface of the earth within the time Aya was watching, kicking up enough dust to blot out the sun and freeze everything, even discounting the ridiculous energy release of the collisions.
Why would there be that much energy released? I assume this would be Suika's power of dispersion that she is doing to the moon. If you were to go into physics, then I guess every time Suika disperses or condenses, then extreme energy would be released, because of Fusion or Fission. However, we should assume that her power to disperse and gather does not cause such a backlash.
If the object is not all that big, it would not really be that much debris entering the atmosphere, as it will get burned up, but some will still enter. I assume it would look like a meteor shower of some sort.
My point is that the standard explanation doesn't work, because it makes no sense physically or conceptually, unless Suika's abilities work vastly differently to what is implied, or she has a multitude of unmentioned secondary capabilities, or some other such explanation, all of which are less likely than the other common explanation, that it was the reflection that was broken.
I guess we disagree here, because I find that the standard explanation does work. The alternate explanation is contradictory and does not make sense. It doesn't make sense from Aya's observations and it doesn't make sense from Suika's explanation.
The point I am trying to make is compare to Youmu stealing spring. That doesn't make sense either, but Youmu could do it, how does she do it? That's impossible to answer.
I suppose, and then scale that explanation up to the moon, but that would force me to conclude that she'd be a bigger mary sue than the lunarians if they suddenly got four additional middle names each and turned out to be descended from the Dragon.
She's pretty high up there. Her introduction pretty much puts her as such, being the leader of the onis and all that good stuff. In SWR, it has indications that the entire Tengu mountain cannot take on Suika.
Your example of the steel vase isn't quite what I'm talking about, since I'm saying the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break.
That doesn't make any sense. If the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break, then her statement is false.
Her statement is such: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.
If you drop a vase and it breaks. It doesn't any sense for it to be easy to break, because the action has been done and it is already broken.
This only works if the statement is a sarcastic statement meant to point out the obvious.
For something to be easy to break, you must first weaken it or have a tool to make it easy to break. The action of breaking the object itself does not make the object easy to break is what I am trying to say.
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In the fighting games, she can create miniature black holes and whole holes. I am not taking Suika's abilities to the Nth degree, but I am just observing what has been mentioned as to what she could do.
It's a question of scale. Sure, she can create black holes that effect an area of a dozen metres, but that's no indication she can make one that could pull the earth out of orbit, for example. Furthermore, it's a question of scope, since she's working with a multitude of fragments each requiring several operations to counteract the problems involved simultaneously.
Why would there be that much energy released? I assume this would be Suika's power of dispersion that she is doing to the moon. If you were to go into physics, then I guess every time Suika disperses or condenses, then extreme energy would be released, because of Fusion or Fission. However, we should assume that her power to disperse and gather does not cause such a backlash.
If the object is not all that big, it would not really be that much debris entering the atmosphere, as it will get burned up, but some will still enter. I assume it would look like a meteor shower of some sort.
It's the energy released on impact. We're talking about millions of tons of debris moving at speeds hundreds of times faster than a space shuttle. This article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment#Project_Thor) can give you a reasonable idea of the forces involved, except that in our case everything from the mass to the velocity would be scaled up by orders of magnitude.
I guess we disagree here, because I find that the standard explanation does work. The alternate explanation is contradictory and does not make sense. It doesn't make sense from Aya's observations and it doesn't make sense from Suika's explanation.
The point I am trying to make is compare to Youmu stealing spring. That doesn't make sense either, but Youmu could do it, how does she do it? That's impossible to answer.
I see a difference between the two examples; stealing spring doesn't work for a debate, since as you said it doesn't make sense, as it's a concept. On the other hand, we can apply physics to the destruction of the moon, so that I think can be discussed reasonably.
But yeah, if I haven't swayed you regarding the explanations by now, I probably won't be able to anytime soon, so I'll bow out of this one.
She's pretty high up there. Her introduction pretty much puts her as such, being the leader of the onis and all that good stuff. In SWR, it has indications that the entire Tengu mountain cannot take on Suika.
She's the leader of the Oni? Always thought she was one of the big four, don't recall anything saying that.
In any case! I still think that "can take on every Tengu in Gensokyo" is still far, far less ridiculous than everything involved with shattering and restoring the moon, on the fly, alone, in a timespan of a few hours or somesuch.
That doesn't make any sense. If the action of shattering the heavens itself is what causes the moon to break, then her statement is false.
Her statement is such: Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it.
If you drop a vase and it breaks. It doesn't any sense for it to be easy to break, because the action has been done and it is already broken.
This only works if the statement is a sarcastic statement meant to point out the obvious.
For something to be easy to break, you must first weaken it or have a tool to make it easy to break. The action of breaking the object itself does not make the object easy to break is what I am trying to say.
Out of curiosity, is English your first language? Seems like the discrepancy here is in how you're reading the sentence rather than your reasoning.
The quoted sentence is equivalent to "Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, it is easy to break it by tearing open the heavens".
The way you're interpreting it, I'd think it would be more correct to write it as "Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it becomes easy to break".
Of course, the translation isn't infallible to begin with, so I'm not saying the latter interpretation is impossible, just that former is also valid.
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Out of curiosity, is English your first language? Seems like the discrepancy here is in how you're reading the sentence rather than your reasoning.
I was just coming here to ask the same question. I think the back-and-forth over this particular phrase is based on a misunderstanding of what it means, which could easily elude a non-native English speaker. A similar misunderstanding arose over a statement regarding Reimu's ability to fly a few months back.
I can't speak to Suika's powerlevel (for obvious reasons, including powerlevel talk being Stricly Verboten 'round these here parts, so we should maybe watch out how we handle that particular topic), but "the leader of the oni" is not a title I ever heard associated with her.
Apart from that, this thread has been an interesting experiment thus far. We know that most of this stuff is explained with "lolmagic", but it is fun to try and push for as much plausibility as possible, to see how far the limits go.
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Humans can only see the moon from its reflection. This includes what you see in the sky.
When you're looking at a mirror or a lake and seeing the reflection of the moon, breaking the mirror or surface of the lake causes the reflection to break.
So if you break "the thing that's in the sky that reflects the moon", what Suika calls the heavens, then the moon will seem as if it was broken.
Also, the fragments of the moon were never said to impact the earth.
I can see where the silly misinterpretation is coming from. Although I would say that most people would read the phrase as the above, and the translation is essentially accurate, I'll rewrite it in a different way.
「天を割れば幾らでも砕くことが出来るのよ」
"If you break the heavens, you can smash [the moon] as often as you want"
The 幾らでも is what's translated to "it's easy to" in the article and my "as many times as you like/as often as you want". You could also say "as much as you want", but you might read that and go back to "if you do X then you're then able to do Y afterwards", which is wrong. The meaning is that given you can tear the heavens, doing so also makes it seem as if you broke the moon, since all you really see is the reflection of the moon in the heavens.
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Sorry if this is pointless backtracking, I just don't want to leave it hanging.
I hope you're aware that this affirmation can only be applied to Touhou universe right? If that's the case, then yes, everything he says is true, because he is the one that's shaping the world of touhou. But the same can't apply to our real world's theories or myths. Because it was not Zun that shaped them. A negative Kelvin temperature is still hot, and it won't become cold just because Zun said so. If it's in Gensokyo, however, then it would be fair enough if we consider the place might use different physics than the one from our world. Otherwise, we'd still really have to blindly trust him even if he were to say that our Earth is flat, or if Jesus originally came from an east Asian religion...? Just because he is the "God of all creation" ...? That's not how stuff works. And no, a whole universe won't fall apart just because of one or two slips.
I see question marks but now questions so I'm thrown off a little. First of all, if ZUN says that a negative kelvin temperature is colder then a positive one, within the touhou-verse then it can be and it would be easier to uproot the laws of physics then think ZUN was wrong. However, both of those things are pretty hard and the path of least resistance is really just to call Cirno a baka and be done with it.
Well, if this can be applied to Suika's case, then why can't it be applied to what I said earlier ago as well...? Because Zun is such a Self-Righteous person that he can only "mess up" a single time in his life, and everything else he says whatsoever is automatically true, even outside Touhou's universe...? Please, redo your thoughts.
You took my words out of context. I gave an example of what we could say if we start assuming that ZUN makes mistakes in places that we find hard to understand.
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@Suika being the leader of Oni:
Not directly stated anywhere, but highly implied, because of her character. The stage of her fight in Immaterial and Missing Power is Shutendouji Oni Hunting. Here is the reference: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Immaterial_and_Missing_Power/Story/Suika%27s_Scenario#Immaterial_and_Missing_Power
I see a difference between the two examples; stealing spring doesn't work for a debate, since as you said it doesn't make sense, as it's a concept. On the other hand, we can apply physics to the destruction of the moon, so that I think can be discussed reasonably.
But yeah, if I haven't swayed you regarding the explanations by now, I probably won't be able to anytime soon, so I'll bow out of this one.
What I am arguing here is we have an observation. We need to first and foremost have an explanation to coincide with the observation. The idea of refracting the heavens to make it look like the moon broke does not coincide with the observation made by one of the characters.
What we do know is that the moon exploding and many fragments fell to earth. That can't be observed if it was just refraction.
It is hard for me to explain what Suika can do without comparing it to other characters. The quickest comparison I can make is the bosses we meet on Touhou 6, 7, and 8. Their abilities include fate manipulation(Remilia), death manipulation(Yuyuko), and time manipulation(Kaguya) with the ability to manipulate parallel time lines. With the scope of these in mind, you can compare it to Suika, who is also a final boss.
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Firstly, the observation can be inaccurate or exaggerated. For Aya, the latter is plausible.
Not that I need to claim she is exaggerating, though. You're reading into the description too much and are giving it your own interpretation. "Descended to the earth" does not mean they impacted in any way or did anything besides fall. She just saw the moon apparently burst into pieces and they fell. At some point they disintegrated and went back to reform the moon. 地上 even means "above the earth".
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Only the Sealing Club CD stories take place in near future. Most Touhou stories generally take place in approximately the time they come out, giving you a relatively real-time update of the state of Gensokyo. For games, this often means the same year; for other stories, the same season.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Gensokyo_Timeline
...This (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Memorandum).
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...This (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Memorandum).
This shows that Maribel travels through time when she dreams (the note was found several hundred years ago), not that they are from contemporany Japan (if that's what you meant to say by linking that note).
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(the note was found several hundred years ago)
What?
This was discovered several hundred years ago in the Bamboo Forest of the Lost.
Oh no, my theory was completely demolished.
Time-travel (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Renko_Usami), you say...
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This shows that Maribel travels through time when she dreams (the note was found several hundred years ago), not that they are from contemporany Japan (if that's what you meant to say by linking that note).
Maribel and Renko are known to be from Japan in a near future, but Gensokyo uses a different calendar. It's 2013 here (in my time zone), but 128 there. You substract 1885 (the creation of the Hakurei Border) from our year. We'd have to check the information we have to derive whether Gensokyo is in the near future as well or not...
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It isn't. Gensokyo's been shown to follow our passage of time exactly. The year is in line with whenever a respective game or written work is released. The season and exact time period can vary but that's mostly due to planning difficulties; notably all of the main shooters come out at Comiket which is always August.
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So, one result we have for sure: we shouldn't get all statements literally. E. g.:
- Youmu cannot cover 200 yojana in one slash. Just because the whole Gensokyo is about 5 yojana.
- Cirno cannot reach frost colder than 0K, she is just boasting baka.
- No, Aya cannot fly faster than light. Just no.
________
During IN, Keine said she had changed history that no people settled in certain place and village hadn't been created. Though, Yukari was like "O RLY? Reimu look this man walks like nothing have happened, Keine lol".
So, what Keine actually did at that time?
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I have no idea on how to explain Keine's power in a physically possible way. The only thing I can do is guess at how it works; I'm pretty sure she can make people's perception of history change to what she wants, but not actually change their knowledge of it (since Reimu still remembered the human village) nor actually change history itself (since Yukari could still see the village). It seems to be a very specific form of illusion, than can be seem through if you're powerful or smart enough.
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So, one result we have for sure: we shouldn't get all statements literally. E. g.:
- Youmu cannot cover 200 yojana in one slash. Just because the whole Gensokyo is about 5 yojana.
- Cirno cannot reach frost colder than 0K, she is just boasting baka.
- No, Aya cannot fly faster than light. Just no.
Where are you getting these?
- The size of Gensokyo doesn't limit the speed someone can travel at.
- So while I agree with this there's also the little issue that you can't get below 0K.
- Can't fly faster then the speed of light or can't travel faster then light? 'cuz that second one is legit.
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During IN, Keine said she had changed history that no people settled in certain place and village hadn't been created. Though, Yukari was like "O RLY? Reimu look this man walks like nothing have happened, Keine lol".
So, what Keine actually did at that time?
The details of her ability are pretty ambiguous, but Keine "hid" the history of the village's existence during IN. ZUN describes history as being reality told from a single point of view, and that history is only history because someone presented it to others (i.e. written down for others to read). While human, Keine's ability is to "eat" history, and as a hakutaku it's to "create" history. So, you could suppose that Keine hiding the human village means she ate its history, and somehow this hides the village from intruders, or rather makes it nonexistent in the intruder's version of "history" of the village. If her ability as a hakutaku is to create history, then it might follow that she pops the village back into history at that time.
could have asked this in misc questions tbh
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Where are you getting these?
- The size of Gensokyo doesn't limit the speed someone can travel at.
- So while I agree with this there's also the little issue that you can't get below 0K.
- Can't fly faster then the speed of light or can't travel faster then light? 'cuz that second one is legit.
- But she still cannot cover ~1400km. :/
- Cirno doesn't know it, and boasts, huh.
- Difference is insignificant. Aya still isn't that fast.
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- But she still cannot cover ~1400km. :/
- Cirno doesn't know it, and boasts, huh.
- Difference is insignificant. Aya still isn't that fast.
Just pointing that while Gensokyo is a rather small country, Youmu's residence is at the netherworld, an unbounded dimension. There's enough space there for her to slash to her heart's content.
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- But she still cannot cover ~1400km. :/
- Cirno doesn't know it, and boasts, huh.
- Difference is insignificant. Aya still isn't that fast.
Yeah, Youmu resides at the Netherworld, which is likely much bigger than Gensokyo. It could be the garden or something that was 200 Yojana wide. It also increased in size sometime ago when Yuyuko petitioned for a size increase to probably Eiki.
Aya is known to be able to take a photo of herself while taking a photo of her opponent. This is mentioned specifically by some of the characters. Something along the lines of "How did she get into that photo?"
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Yuyuko claims her garden is 200 yojanas long in Youmu's PCB profile. It also says she exaggerates, so it's unknown how large it actually is.
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Cool.
Youmu can cut down thousands of garden trees in one slash.
Just as side effect to attempt to hurt Reimu/Marisa/Sakuya.
:/
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you can't have negative Kelvins
I believe that too, but... lolwut (http://newrisingmedia.com/all/2013/1/4/scientists-reach-a-temperature-lower-than-absolute-zero.html)?
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There's a difference between the traditional view of temperature and the more rigorous model used to describe the negative and infinite temperatures. If you don't actually know the physics behind it then don't go throwing it around pretending that it applies to what you're talking about. Even if the concept of negative absolute temperature exists it wouldn't be accurate at all to go "lol negative temperature!" when not talking about the physics surrounding it. It sounds like WMG and that's bad.
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There's a difference between the traditional view of temperature and the more rigorous model used to describe the negative and infinite temperatures. If you don't actually know the physics behind it then don't go throwing it around pretending that it applies to what you're talking about. Even if the concept of negative absolute temperature exists it wouldn't be accurate at all to go "lol negative temperature!" when not talking about the physics surrounding it. It sounds like WMG and that's bad.
:/ You are not taking it easy enough, and that's bad.
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I think the major reason I'm opposed to it is that you're taking serious and complex principles that are very very likely going to be thrown around completely haphazardly with major errors everywhere just to strap them to something silly, which itself defeats the purpose of using that more serious and strict context to explain silly things. Regardless, I can express my disapproval of it all I want but as long as it's in some not-serious-thread that I can avoid there isn't any problem.
I was totally ok (and even participated) until people started getting unnecessarily serious about ZUN making errors and minus Kelvins existing and whatnot. Sorry if I can't take it easy when people start mixing serious discussion into not-really-serious discussion whether it's Touhou official lore or physics, never mind combining the two and having mish-mashes of Touhou canon material with wild interpretations of that material with physics concepts while simultaneously ignoring the physics. My brain is exploding here.