Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: cuc on June 03, 2012, 10:48:54 PM
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My recent discussions have led me to retranslate a few old passages from the character profiles, which may help clarify some long-standing confusions. This is a compilation of them. My Japanese skill is limited, so correct me if I'm wrong.
UPDATE: Updated the entry on spirit strikes.
Touhou 6: ESoD
1. Flandre Scarlet profile
Perhaps she doesn't even know whether there's any difference between what she eats and living humans.
The profile actually says perhaps Flandre can't tell if there's any difference between her human blood food and living humans, (because the food tastes just like human, or because she has never tasted living human?) i.e. her mind is undeveloped, and she doesn't know anything about life.
This clarifies the confusion that the SDM makes food using living humans. There's no concrete proof for that.
2. Name of the SDM library
The appendix to Eastern and Little Nature Deity includes an introduction to Touhou characters. This introduction is not written by ZUN, and is infamous for its many errors, one of which is calling the library "Voile Library". The publisher issued errata (http://www.comptiq.com/release/comic/55touhou_owabi.html) (supervised by ZUN) correcting it to "the library inside SDM".
In other words, not only is the library never called Voile in canon, it is canonically nameless.
3. Canon spelling of Flandre's name
The EaLND appendix misspells several English names. It spells her name as "Frandoll". The errata's correction is "Frandre".
PMiSS should be a more reliable source on name spellings, since it has TOKIAME, who has always been working closely with ZUN, writing each character's name in caligraphy. PMiSS spells her name as "Frandle".
Why the inconsistency? My guess is that ZUN came up the name as pure katakana that feels European, without thinking through what it is in European language.
In language, convention is more important than "factual correctness". so I don't see any need to try to stop people using "Flandre". I prefer "Flandre", too.
Touhou 7: PCB and Touhou 9: PoFV
The door to Netherworld
At the end of PCB Stage 4 there was the door to Netherworld. People often see an "eye" on the door. It is in fact a door knot. Anyone familiar with East Asia culture already know that, and this can be verified from the original texture file in game.
Touhou 8: IN
1. Houraisan Kaguya profile
Out of curiosity, she had Eirin make the Hourai elixir - a forbidden medicine, and participated in its making.
The IN profile doesn't say Kaguya drunk the elixir. Also, her motivation was curiosity.
Several years later, [everyone considered] / [it was publically recognized that] Kaguya's crime had been atoned for, and it was time for her to return to the moon.
Only a few years, and Kaguya's crime was considered cleared. Apparently exile on earth for a few years is equal to capital punishment. When Eirin recounted the past in CiLR, "Kaguya's crime had been atoned for" was no longer mentioned.
My understanding is, ZUN made a few very stealthy retcons when writing Silent Sinner in Blue / Cage in Lunatic Runagate. In the end, this may be just another theory, and has been overridden anyway, so you don't have to agree.
IN:
Kaguya's power over eternity makes her naturally immortal. The Hourai elixir is made using a fraction of her power (ghost team ending). It's also not mentioned anywhere that those who drunk the elixir is considered tainted. Only Mokou and Eirin drunk the elixir.
SSiB / CiLR:
Kaguya drunk the elixir, and is thus considered forever tainted. Kaguya and Mokou are both immortals created by the elixir. Chang'e is introduced, and the moon rabbits have been working for 3000 years as a replacement of her punishment.
(Full post is here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12670.msg837553.html#msg837553).)
2. Fujiwara no Mokou profile
Kaguya is but another human forced to change where she lives [i.e. on the run]. Knowing that Kaguya is [in] the same [situation] as her, Mokou felt her drive/rage suddenly went away.
I still despise Kaguya. And Kaguya is still trying to destroy me. However, I won't die. Each day is so fulfilling. This place, deep in the mountain, away from the human village, is no different from Hourai/Penglai.
To live, is wonderful.
Mokou's issues are less severe than people tend to assume. The correct translation of her IN profile shows she had already lost her thousand-year-long grudge, and later she would receive new character development in CiLR: she stopped being hung up on Kaguya, deciding that even without Kaguya, she can still enjoy her life in Gensokyo.
ZUN calls Mokou a "person of Hourai" partially because of the elixir, partially because she is living freely now. Calling the immortals "people of Hourai" is fanon.
(Full posts is here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12670.msg837482.html#msg837482) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12670.msg838011.html#msg838011).)
Touhou 7.5: IaMP and other games
Two types of bombs
There are actually two types of bombs in the Windows canon: Spell Cards and Spirit Strikes.
The bombs in most shooting games are Spell Cards, while the bombs in IaMP, MoF and SA are Spirit Strikes. Spirit Strike is also available in SWR/Soku as a System Card (unlike in IaMP, it does no damage). That's why the bombs in MoF and the fighting games appear as a circle of shockwave sent out from the character, very different from spell card bombs. Meanwhile, the bombs in SA are Remote Spirit Strikes, meaning that they come from the partner characters.
The English translation patches have always translated Spirit Strikes as simply "Bombs" following the original UI text in IaMP, that's why this difference is not obvious to oversea fans.
In the PC-98 games, "Spirit Strike" is the name for Reimu's bomb attack, and can be seen in the UI of HRtP and SoEW, and in the manual files for PoDD, LLS and MS. The bombs in PC-98 games look and function very differently from the Spirit Strikes of Windows canon.
BAiJR and other books
Tengu newspaper
The numbering (e.g. "1st of Fumitsuki") in the tengu newspaper headers are very likely not dates, especially not Gregorian dates. Instead, the numbers are probably issue numbers (e.g. "1st issue of the seventh moon in youkai lunar calendar").
Full post is here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.msg842797.html#msg842797).
PMiSS
1. Yukari Yakumo
There is no critical mistranslation in PMiSS's Yukari entry. However, people often seem to forget an important fact stated here: Gensokyo is surrounded by two borders.
The first border is Border of the Illusionary and the Real (I'd translate it as Border of the Unreal and the Real). It is proposed and implemented by Yukari over 500 years ago, turning Gensokyo into a land of the unreal. The youkai who had grown weak in the outside world would automatically feel the call of Gensokyo, and migrate into it, ensuring youkai to stay strong in Gensokyo. Foreign youkai began migrating into Gensokyo after this event.
The second border is the 1885 Great Hakurei Barrier, which is a Barrier of Common Sense (PMiSS Afterword, CoLA, CiLR), separating Gensokyo from the outside world. Yukari is said to be among the sages who proposed the barrier.
Another thing to note is that Gensokyo has existed long before there was any border. For example, the First Lunar War happened over 1000 years ago.
2. Draft of Spell Card Rules
The third reason behind the rules, in the "Concept" section:
Pure determination-by-strength is to be denied.
The current translation "use of one's full abilities is to be denied" seems like an attempt to convey the spirit of the text rather than a mistranslation.
Nonetheless, there is a difference in meaning. The original text makes it clearer that it's about leveling the playing field between the strong and the weak, not forbidding everyone to use full power.
3. Akyu's age
The news article about the ninth Child of Miare is accompanied by a photo depicting a young girl a few years old. The scan of the whole page can be seen here (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/File:PMiSS_Bunbunmaru.jpg).
In the original context, there is very little doubt that the girl in the photo is Akyu.
The most plausible explanation is: a girl was born some years before 1994, and something happened in 1994 summer, turning her into Akyu, the ninth Child of Miare. Akyu thinks of the event in 1994 summer as her birth.
For a detailed examination of this issue, see here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12670.msg842762.html#msg842762).
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But I thought Flandre was pretty much accepted?
Still, you're right that the game profiles themselves need to be revised. I've been focusing on the books so much lately that I haven't even considered it.
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The SDM library is called Voile in the stage 4's music title, and then it was expanded upon in Afterword Shanghai Alice Correspondence where ZUN mentions that the name holds no real meaning. Whether or not the name was corrected in the fairies manga doesn't change that, but it does make it an odd thing to correct.
Flandre is the french name for Flanders County, which is famous for the battlefields in WWI, dubbed Flanders Fields. Not only is there the imagery of bloodshed, but also for the red poppies that covered the graves and so on so forth. Even if there's an inconsistency, "Flandre" is likely what ZUN was going for anyways.
While I acknowledge the retcon point, I think it's more of an expansion than anything. In her profile she's banished (well, attempted to be killed) for what's implied as getting Eirin to create the elixir, but even she did it out of curiosity there's no real reason why she would want to since she was already immortal, so that's weird. Eirin not being punished as well would also be really odd. Not explicitly mentioning that the elixir causes impurity doesn't really matter since obviously it was bad enough in some way that it warranted death, regardless of who made it or drank it or whatever. If Kaguya were just a Lunarian then it also seems weird that she just randomly holds power over eternity. This seems like a pretty natural and progressive explanation, to me.
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Yes, that's what I meant, no need to change a name so commonly accepted.
Flandre is the french name for Flanders County, which is famous for the battlefields in WWI, dubbed Flanders Fields. Not only is there the imagery of bloodshed, but also for the red poppies that covered the graves and so on so forth. Even if there's an inconsistency, "Flandre" is likely what ZUN was going for anyways.
Every Japanese know about Flanders because of this 19th century book: A Dog of Flanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Dog_of_Flanders). It's one of those common knowledge things in Japan.
If Kaguya were just a Lunarian then it also seems weird that she just randomly holds power over eternity.
There isn't one part about the IN / Ephemeral Moon story that isn't odd. The Tale of Bamboo Cutter is weird to begin with.
Kaguya isn't a random Lunarian. She was a princess with the highest social status, meaning she's very likely a daughter of Tsukuyomi.
Whether the retcon is for the good... Touhou is still developing. We shall wait and see.
The SDM library is called Voile in the stage 4's music title, and then it was expanded upon in Afterword Shanghai Alice Correspondence where ZUN mentions that the name holds no real meaning. Whether or not the name was corrected in the fairies manga doesn't change that, but it does make it an odd thing to correct.
The library is always called "Great Library of SDM" in the fighting games for a reason.
To clarify: the appendix to the EaLND tankoubon is not part of the manga, and most of which don't seem like they were written by ZUN. The first part is an introduction to the characters. It says Patchouli "manages the Voile Library". So after the correction it should be "[Patchouli] manages the library inside SDM." Strangely, it also says Patchouli is on good terms with Marisa.
I'm reminded to take a few more looks into the matter. BAiJR contains very short character profiles. It doesn't say much in Kaguya's profile, and says "the Hourai elixir left behind by Kaguya" in Mokou's profile. More ambiguity.
The EaLND appendix however says Kaguya drunk the elixir. EaLND tankoubon was published in 2007.1, while Ephemeral Moon was first announced in 2007.5.
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That Flandre/Flandle thing kinda reminds me of the Clashman/Crashman problem in Megaman 2, the l and r sound very similar in Japanese that they are interchanged sometimes, and both spellings have shown up in different games that Crashman has sown up in.
I'd recommend to just go with what's the most meaningful rather than just stating that X person used l or r, therefore they explicitly intended that spelling.
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IN
1. Houraisan Kaguya profileThe IN profile doesn't say Kaguya drunk the elixir. Also, her motivation was curiosity.Only a few years, and Kaguya's crime was considered cleared. Apparently exile on earth for a few years is equal to capital punishment. When Eirin recounted the past in CiLR, "Kaguya's crime had been atoned for" was no longer mentioned.
What's actually happening, is ZUN made a few very stealthy retcons when writing Silent Sinner in Blue / Cage in Lunatic Runagate.
IN:
Kaguya's power over eternity makes her naturally immortal. The Hourai elixir is made using a fraction of her power (ghost team ending). It's also not mentioned anywhere that those who drunk the elixir is considered tainted. Only Mokou and Eirin drunk the elixir.
SSiB / CiLR:
Kaguya drunk the elixir, and is thus considered forever tainted. Kaguya and Mokou are both immortals created by the elixir. Chang'e is introduced, and the moon rabbits have been working for 3000 years as a replacement of her punishment.
(Full post is here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12670.msg837553.html#msg837553).)
Soooo... did Eirin still drink the elixir or what? And if so, when/where was this mentioned?
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Soooo... did Eirin still drink the elixir or what? And if so, when/where was this mentioned?
Yes, she drank it. Discussion on this starts here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.msg836584.html#msg836584).
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Yes, she drank it. Discussion on this starts here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8344.msg836584.html#msg836584).
Now all my Touhou knowledge has become a lie!! :qq:
/me laments
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Now all my Touhou knowledge has become a lie!! :qq:
To be fair. this is never brought up outside of the IN ghost team ending.
Another interpretation is this: if Eirin truly is Omoikane the god of knowledge and thought, for a goddess of this level, drinking the elixir probably means nothing.
If it has no effects, Eirin might just be taking a sip to taste the medicine she made.
Whether it has any effects or not, Eirin would be using a partial truth to conceal an even greater truth, so she didn't have to tell Yuyuko "your power is useless on a goddess like me".
By the way, do you remember the scene in SSiB where Reisen II called Eirin using a censored name "Yagokoro XX"? It's easy to think this means her true name is unpronounceable (the wiki currently says so), because the only other censored name in Touhou is the name Lunarians call Chang'e, appearing in the same dialogue,
Instead, it's probably just a really blatant and clumsy hint that Eirin's true name is "Yagokoro-omoikane".
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Haven't heard of that deity or theory before. Sounds interesting though, and might explain how Eirin got into the Netherworld despite supposedly drinking the elixir.
Either that or she only took two sips, granting her eternal youth and immunity to disease (and perhaps poison), but not absolute immortality (for which you need three sips). That would make her mortal enough to still enter the Netherworld.
Though, Lunarians already can't die from age, but the second perk is still neat to have.
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I'm really not getting what the solid evidence for Eirin being a deity is. It sounds a lot like filling in the blanks with what you want the blanks to have. But I'm curious to have some clearer proof, and welcome it.
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I'm really not getting what the solid evidence for Eirin being a deity is. It sounds a lot like filling in the blanks with what you want the blanks to have. But I'm curious to have some clearer proof, and welcome it.
This interview here (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Interview) has ZUN mentioning something along those lines. Specifically:
My thought is that the Lunar Capital is where the highest, noblest gods live - that sort of setting. On the other hand, Gensokyo is where the more friendly, indigenous gods live. I figured that there are factions even among gods. Eirin is one of them, which is why she isn't interacting with the other humans after she moved to Gensokyo.
The phrasing used is a bit ambiguous since he doesn't clarify what "them" means so I don't want to exactly call it proof (that, and translation's a tricky thing; I don't know how it's worded in the original text, and that question's following a discussion on Lunarians in general). However, mentioning Eirin off-handedly in a question raided about Gods strikes me as ZUN's way of hinting at it in a roundabout way, like he did with the whole Maribel/Yukari thing. The fact that she's the brain of the moon and Omoikane is the God of wisdom and knowledge is another possible connection as well.
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He could've also just as easily meant "those who live in the Lunar Capital", but I can see the inference anyway.
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Now we're playing the circular logic game again. Some of this was already done in the Misc Questions thread and it's sort of bled out.
Sounds interesting though, and might explain how Eirin got into the Netherworld despite supposedly drinking the elixir.
As covered in the Misc Questions thread, the notion that immortals can't enter the Netherworld traces to a mistranslated (and possibly misconstrued) quote from Mokou. There isn't really anything pointing to Hourai immortals not being able to step foot into the Netherworld. It doesn't make much sense to begin with.
Though, Lunarians already can't die from age, but the second perk is still neat to have.
Lunarians don't die from age because the Moon is a "pure" place; on Earth their lifespans are still finite assuming they aren't already immortal by whatever circumstance.
Either that or she only took two sips, granting her eternal youth and immunity to disease (and perhaps poison), but not absolute immortality (for which you need three sips). That would make her mortal enough to still enter the Netherworld.
This is an interesting proposition though; the whole "sips" thing has been explicitly mentioned before, but nobody has really been implied to have only sipped it. It's still just speculation though, and considering all the mystery and ambiguity behind IN's characters, trying to pin down any "truths" is probably futile.
I'm really not getting what the solid evidence for Eirin being a deity is. It sounds a lot like filling in the blanks with what you want the blanks to have. But I'm curious to have some clearer proof, and welcome it.
It pretty much is just filling in the blanks, but it's Eirin's whole imagery, character and attachment to the Shinto stories that allude to her being Omoikane. Again, it's still all speculation.
I'm also going to press that the translation on the interview is unclear because the phrasing itself is unclear. I don't think it could be something ZUN intentionally shuffled in, this was likely a verbal interview that was transcribed. Probably isn't a good idea to try and find hidden meaning in that sort of medium.
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Can always count on Drake to clear the cobwebs on stuff like this.
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Hmm, I don't know which thread does this belong.
I've been told today that "our consensus was that Reimu has always known Yukari; any conflict with PCB can be explained by PCB being made when ZUN's world design was incomplete".
One important evidence seems to be CoLA, the "Light Transcending Purple" chapter where Reimu introduces Yukari to Rinnosuke. Reimu said she didn't want to see Yukari, but Yukari kept bugging her, except "紫はね、いつも冬は出て来なくなるのよ"/"Yukari never shows up in the winter", which only makes sense if she'd known Yukari for several years. This chapter happened in 2004 winter, which was only the first winter after PCB.
Oh my, sounds irrefutable. So PCB was already retconned in barely more than one year?
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(would normally go in the misc questions thread btw)
I dunno. That's a pretty confusing conflict if it were indeed correct, but considering Ran tells Reimu that Yukari hibernates in the winter in her Extra scenario and that Yukari actively bugs Reimu after PCB anyways, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have Reimu know (or at least deduce) that she sleeps during the winter and wouldn't show up for no reason.
In any case, it's going to take more than that one line to contradict the whole of PCB. It would be pretty ludicrous to not assume that:
- Reimu has the deductive ability to claim that Yukari sleeps all winter after Yukari's shikigami tells her so
while instead assuming:
- Reimu has actually always known Yukari
- ZUN's world design was incomplete during PCB (when his writing sort of implies that he's put a crapton of thought into it by that point)
- all (assumed) conflicts with PCB can be brushed aside because of that
One answer doesn't take much rationalizing and assumption at all, the other creates a field of assumptions. I think an appeal to Occam's razor in this case holds quite a bit of ground.
The only other thing I can think of that points to Reimu previously knowing Yukari would be the introduction of the Spell Card Rules, which Yukari almost definitely took part in (including the draft being written on the same paper as the youkai-pacifist contract). However, seeing as Yukari nor Reimu made Yukari's influence known she might as well have done it without Reimu knowing.
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The only other thing I can think of that points to Reimu previously knowing Yukari would be the introduction of the Spell Card Rules, which Yukari almost definitely took part in (including the draft being written on the same paper as the youkai-pacifist contract). However, seeing as Yukari nor Reimu made Yukari's influence known she might as well have done it without Reimu knowing.
Can't say I agree with that assertion. As the story line goes, Reimu does not know Yukari prior to PCB, at least nothing gives the impression she does.
The introduction to Spell Card Rules does not need to have anything to do with Yukari. There are two different contracts at work here, one is the Vampire contract, which it is fairly safe to say, Yukari had a hand in. And Spell Card Rules, which we do not know who has a hand in.
What we can safely assume is that Reimu had a hand in agreeing to the Spell Card Rules. Take this and the fact that Reimu does not know Yukari prior to PCB, I see no reason why Yukari would have anything to do with the Spell Card Rules.
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Sorry, yes, I am assuming that she was involved in the creation of the Spell Card Rules, since there isn't anything outright saying she did. Some powerful youkai beat the vampire (presumably Remilia) during the Vampire Incident, somebody got the vampire(s) to sign the pacifist contract, and some youkai wrote down the Spell Card Rule draft on youkai contract paper. They don't necessarily have to all be the same, but even shuffling in a mention of the youkai contract paper is enough to arouse suspicion. Yukari and Remilia are already acquainted by IaMP, Yukari's the one who always holds Gensokyo's and its inhabitants' wellbeing as top priority; in my opinion it very easily fits to have Yukari being instrumental in all of these things. Of course, that doesn't mean it's right.
I wasn't actually arguing for Reimu previously knowing Yukari, by the way. I was just speculating based on what's presented. The point was that I can't think of any other evidence that would point to Reimu knowing Yukari. However, Reimu not knowing Yukari doesn't mean that Yukari couldn't be involved in the Spell Card Rules. Her position by itself makes it very unlikely that she wasn't involved.
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Oh, I'm sure things like the spell card rules draft and the IaMP dialogue are reasons to believe Reimu already knew Yukari, while the CoLA line was used as an evidence that adds weight to it.
Regarding the Touhou universe not being finalized in the PCB era, I was given small examples such as "Cirno is a youkai" (PCB profile, note that her ESoD profile doesn't literally say she's a fairy), "Yamabiko is a type of spirit" (source?) and Sakuya can turn back time (I vaguely remember seeing this in early canon, but where?).
Of course ZUN saying the PCB Prologue (record of 13th Hakurei) being "distorted history, repeatedly overwritten by others, extremely unreliable" is taken as a significant strike against PCB's rank in canon.
By the way, they have actually already come around, and tried to reinterpret PCB dialogue under the assumption "Reimu knew Yukari" :)
As for me, the PCB dialogue being overridden is no big deal. I'm willing to accept it if only to make post-PCB canon such as spell card rules draft work better. I do think the PCB dialogue can't be interpreted as anything other than "Reimu didn't know Yukari" though.
(Yes, I know fairies can be considered a type of youkai, but this doesn't seem to be the intention of Cirno's PCB profile. It's just a minor detail, no need to dwell on that.)
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I've kinda taken it as more of Yukari being introduced into the series, so perhaps the script was written in such a way to act more like a first impression? Kinda like how Sakuya was "assassinated" in stage 6 of ESoD.
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Updated 3 PMiSS entries.
1. Why youkai can't defeat the Hakurei is more ambiguous in the original text.
2. I don't really know, but lots of people seem to have forgotten about the first border, Border of the Unreal and the Real? For example. it's only somewhat implied in the wiki's current Great Hakurei Barrier entry by saying the Barrier is "the strongest barrier in Gensokyo". I hope that entry doesn't come off as too condescending.
3. The third reason for SC rules.
UPDATE 2:
Added explanation for bombs in Touhou games.
UPDATE 3:
Added Akyu's age problem.
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I was given small examples such as "Cirno is a youkai"
That is a non-example you just provided. Cirno is a youkai. Youkai cover yousei and yuurei and many other things.
@Yukari and Reimu: I cannot think of any reason why Yukari would know Reimu. Which is why I believe Yukari is not involved in the spell card rules. There is nothing telling us or hinting to us that Yukari does know Reimu.
That line proposed in Curiousities of Lotus Asia is not an argument. Given what has been told to Reimu, it makes sense for Reimu to make that judgement. Which by the way, is false. Since Yukari was around during that portion of the story.
The thing is, for Yukari to be involved in Spell Card Rules, she needs to know Reimu, because Reimu is the one that agreed to this. So, whoever was discussing it with Reimu would have met her. There are 2 canon characters that know Reimu prior to their introduction. One is Yuuka and the other is Alice. Both of these could have possibly be in this discussion with Reimu.
By the way, they have actually already come around, and tried to reinterpret PCB dialogue under the assumption "Reimu knew Yukari"
An assumption you should not be making. Yuuka and Alice both know Reimu prior to meeting her. We know this because the dialogue in the game says so. There is no such special introduction for Yukari.
As for me, the PCB dialogue being overridden is no big deal. I'm willing to accept it if only to make post-PCB canon such as spell card rules draft work better. I do think the PCB dialogue can't be interpreted as anything other than "Reimu didn't know Yukari" though.
Which I find is a dangerous assumption. There is no reason to make such interpretation when other better interpretations exist.
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UPDATE:
1. The door to Netherworld. Seriously, I've seen people asking about it a few times.
2. Tengu newspaper.
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The thing is, for Yukari to be involved in Spell Card Rules, she needs to know Reimu, because Reimu is the one that agreed to this. So, whoever was discussing it with Reimu would have met her. There are 2 canon characters that know Reimu prior to their introduction. One is Yuuka and the other is Alice. Both of these could have possibly be in this discussion with Reimu.
An assumption you should not be making. Yuuka and Alice both know Reimu prior to meeting her. We know this because the dialogue in the game says so. There is no such special introduction for Yukari.
Which I find is a dangerous assumption. There is no reason to make such interpretation when other better interpretations exist.
Not really: she could have easily delegated negotions to someone else, or even just left a note on the table while Reimu was sleeping.
As for the whole knowing Yuuka and Alice thing: PC-98 is seperate canon, so it's uncertain if they met before the spellcard system was proposed, or who else Reimu knew before EoSD.
We have couple of lines in PCB by Alice that would be written off as a throwback to PC-98 if the Touhou fandom didn't take such joy in overanalysis, to which Reimu inferred she had no idea who Alice was, which seems odd if they had such an important discussion, so she can probably be ruled out.
IIRC in PoFV Reimu pretty clearly indicated she already knew Yuuka (or at least that she had a flower thing going on), but made no indication of whether they met before or after the spellcard rules were proposed. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation, but I find it really difficult to imagine Yuuka see the vampire incident, decide to implement a system that restricts youkai combat into sport where humans can fight on par, and decide to go to Reimu of all people to say "Sup Rei, take a look at this shizzouse: these here spellcards be trippin'. Whelp imma go back to gardening, have a goodun", and leave it up to her. Generic berserker!Yuuka would probably be against them in the first place, PoFV!Yuuka would probably be too laid back to bother, and take it to the youkai rather than the shrine maiden if she did.
I personally like to think twas Yukari that wrote the draft and had it sent to Reimu one way or another, considering she was involved with the incident that led to it and it entierly fits with my idea of her character.
Got motive, means, precedent; no personality clashes or such, and Yukari is apparently pretty involved with the Hakurei. If I'm allowed to take a leap of logic too, I'd say that since it's pretty unlikely Yukari never met Reimu's predecessor, she could've just sent a letter using that relation to get Reimu to play ball. We know she does things like slip donations to the shrine under the latter's nose, so a little anonymous suggestion seems pretty reasonable.
(As an aside, there's also Yukari's page, which states "Reimu first met Yukari when she asked her to repair the border between the Netherworld and Gensokyo in Perfect Cherry Blossom. However, Yukari indicated she is already familiar with Reimu to an unspecified extent", though admittedly I'd take that with a grain of salt.)
TL;DR: Yukari seems to have at least as much supporting her as Yuuka, but since ZUN meant for it to be open, trying to insist it isn't X character is an exercise in futility.
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My own interpretation of PCB's dialogue is that Yukari knew Reimu, but Reimu did not know Yukari. Yukari instantly recognizes her as "that shrine maiden" whereas Reimu asks "Who are you?" or something like that, showing that Yukari is familiar with Reimu but not the other way around.
My own speculation then is thus that Yukari's been observing Reimu in secret up to that point (at the very least). It's hard to imagine someone in Yukari's position not caring about/watching over the Hakurei Shrine Maiden to at least some extent, after all.
Going by that, I also believe that Yukari is the writer of the original draft of spell card rules written on a youkai contract (due to all the thematic emphasis of her and contracts in PMiSS, as well as her position/role as general overseer of Gensokyo) and that she simply slipped the paper to Reimu anonymously. It's not like it'd be something hard for her to do. Hell, we already have canon confirmation that she slips Reimu donations anonymously, so slipping Reimu a draft of the spell card rules anonymously wouldn't be very hard or out of place for her, either.
As for CoLA, I imagine (but can't say with certainty) that either falls under "You're reading too much into one line" or "ZUN simply didn't think so much about that one line".
As for Yuuka and the evidence that she wrote the spell card rules... I still think Yukari was Yuuka's replacement for whatever reason (my current belief leaning towards "ZUN prefers/decided on blondes", hilariously enough). There's just waaaaay too many parallels between the two. I believe all the evidence of Yuuka being the one who wrote the spell card rules in PMiSS is ZUN's personal private inside-joke/reference/remnant/nostalgia to that. Although obviously such a thing can't even begin to be proven.
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Reimu not knowing Yukari doesn't have to affect things like the rules draft.
It's very difficult for a person to leave an impression on Reimu's mind, if that person doesn't befriend her the way her defeated enemies tend to. Other than PCB dialogue with Alice, recent manga have given us two examples. In the final chapter of Oriental Sacred Place, the three fairies had been hanging out around the shrine for a long time, but Reimu didn't recognize them. Seiga took an interest in Reimu, and kept bugging her for some time (TD parallel ending), nonetheless Reimu had completely forgotten about her.
Normally, a strong and perceptive youkai or youkai hunter would sense the great power in Yukari. But that's part of what's special about Reimu: she doesn't differentiate between the strong and the weak.
Given the way Reimu's mind works, it's quite plausible for Yukari to occasionally visit Reimu and influence her in some subtle way for some time, without Reimu remembering her.
However, I must say the PCB dialogue doesn't seem to be written with this intention in mind.
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I'd also like to mention again that the draft being shown, yet explicitly being attributed as anonymous/unknown, is essentially a literary ploy that implies the exact opposite: that whoever suggested this draft is likely among the already-known characters, or was soon to be revealed. Having this fundamental piece of Gensokyo's history with absolutely no plan behind it is frankly impossible. The draft is not done by Reimu, and more notably, Reimu does not attribute the draft to anyone, nor is any third party mentioned at all, ever again. Mentioning that the draft was done on a youkai contract, rather than using some other device to show that it was a youkai who thought of it, is probably a throwback to earlier in the book, with the Vampire incident. The vampire was defeated by powerful youkai, and a contract was made to prohibit their actions. These contracts are only mentioned in these two cases, and are very likely connected.
In fact, it almost seems too perfect to Yukari's character. I could easily see Yukari introducing the more one-sided contract on purpose in order to get other youkai to urge a more universal solution rather than have it only affect the vampires. If the Vampire incident never occurred, there might never have been an agreement to introduce such rules.
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(due to all the thematic emphasis of her and contracts in PMiSS, as well as her position/role as general overseer of Gensokyo)
I disagree with the thematic emphasis, I don't see how beauty and elegance is Yukari's theme. The draft of Spell Card Rules thematic emphasis is more of what Yuuka would draft over Yukari. PoFV Yuuka emphasizes beauty and elegance, which is what the spell card rules emphasize. Also, whatever rules Yuuka uses when she fights in her PMiSS article seems to be what the Spell Card Rules are.
Yukari does not emphasize such things. Her style is more chaotic, as we see in the fighting games.
@Alice knowing Reimu: Yes, which is why I mentioned PCB's dialogue. Reimu not knowing Alice just means they do not meet often enough for Reimu to remember her. It isn't like Reimu is good at remembering names, but after meeting a few times, Reimu does remember people.
In the final chapter of Oriental Sacred Place, the three fairies had been hanging out around the shrine for a long time, but Reimu didn't recognize them.
That isn't too suprising, considering that Reimu does not actually meet the three fairies that often. They always run from Reimu and maybe once or twice do the fairies actually meet Reimu. Even then, it was only a brief meeting.
@Spell Card Rules: The way I view it. It is not the anonymity that is making me think the person should know Reimu. It is this dialogue:
PMiSS: Some of the more willful youkai found these terms distasteful and entered into discussions with the Hakurei shrine maiden.
The result of this were the spell card rules, which allowed duelists to seemingly stake their lives in individual combat (*4).
This seems to indicate that whoever the youkai are, are in an active discussion with the Reimu and not just something that gets signed off by Reimu.
Because of this, while it is not necessary that the said youkai are the ones we know, it at least gives strong evidence to whoever it was to at least know Reimu prior to the Spell Card Rules.
The only two people we know that know Reimu prior to their introductions are Yuuka and Alice.
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@Alice knowing Reimu: Yes, which is why I mentioned PCB's dialogue. Reimu not knowing Alice just means they do not meet often enough for Reimu to remember her. It isn't like Reimu is good at remembering names, but after meeting a few times, Reimu does remember people.
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The only two people we know that know Reimu prior to their introductions are Yuuka and Alice.
The same logic from the first section of the quote can be used to counter the second, unless you meant "the only two people that we know knew Reimu before their introductions are Yuuka and Alice".
In any case, PCB and PoFV don't support that they knew each other at the time the discussions were being held, only that (if we ignore that it was probably meant as a tongue-in-cheek reference) Alice knows Reimu since before PCB and that Reimu knows Yuuka has a flower motif going on by the events of PoFV.
As for the whole "beauty and elegance" thing, you have her manner of dress, speech and poise, for one.
And her spellcards. Shizzlick be mad elegant, yo. Purdy, too.
Meanwhile, PMiSS's Yuuka article makes it pretty clear Yuuka's preference is to steamroll people, which doesn't seem particularly elegant to me.
I agree that "whatever rules Yuuka uses when she fights in her PMiSS article seems to be what the Spell Card Rules are", but I don't think that's particularly strong evidence to support the argument. Consider that Yuuka is the first powerhouse PMiSS covers, and that bringing it up again later when there's a full article for it would be redundant.
From what I can tell, your side seems to be that it was Yuuka because:
- Reimu probably knew her at the time
- PoFV Yuuka is elegant, elegance is mentioned in the spellcard draft
- Her PMiSS article mentions how youkai decided on the spellcard rules
Sure, it's reason enough that it's not a crack idea (like, say, Nitori or Rumia would be), but then neither is the idea that it was Yukari, especially if you take literary devices into account.
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Another translation post under construction, will return when I get confirmation from people who knew Japanese better.
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I disagree with the thematic emphasis, I don't see how beauty and elegance is Yukari's theme. The draft of Spell Card Rules thematic emphasis is more of what Yuuka would draft over Yukari. PoFV Yuuka emphasizes beauty and elegance, which is what the spell card rules emphasize. Also, whatever rules Yuuka uses when she fights in her PMiSS article seems to be what the Spell Card Rules are.
Yukari does not emphasize such things. Her style is more chaotic, as we see in the fighting games.
Er... I said thematic emphasis on CONTRACTS, not on beauty. Obviously Yuuka's the one with the beauty emphasis in PMiSS.
However, I disagree on Yukari not emphasizing beauty. Here are some examples (although I'll admit that mistranslations are possible).
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Scarlet_Weather_Rhapsody/Story/Yukari%27s_Scenario
Yukari: "You shall leave the earth beautifully yet cruelly!"
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia/Chapter_26
Yukari's name: "The contents are very simple: 'In the land of Izumo, covered by beautiful, heavy clouds, I've built a great fenced mansion to let my wife, Princess Kushinada, live a peaceful life in seclusion.'"
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate/Fifth_Chapter
?Correct, well done. The moon was covered with a very beautiful sea and the youkai knew instantaneously that the way back would be to go through the planet that was reflected on its surface.?
She's also glad that she was able to see the cherry blossoms twice in another chapter of CoLA, showing another time she's appreciated beauty.
And from Seasonal Dream Vision, she acknowledges the beauty of cherry blossoms (that's she's canonically been stated to go to viewings of)
"It's certainly unusual for you to come this far to Muenzuka. The cherry blossoms at the shrine are much more beautiful and brilliant than the ones here, you know."
She gets distracted by such things, too.
"Blast. I was careless. Maybe I was distracted by the sinful violet spectacle of the cherry blossoms."
Also, her story in Seasonal Dream Vision, where Yuyuko in the ending states that the flower represents Yukari (""I've been thinking this for a while, but I think the violet cherry blossoms seem like they're your flower. I wonder what that says about the sinfulness of your character, Yukari?"), is called "A BEAUTIFUL Flower Blooming Violet Every Sixty Years"
Also, as stated in PMiSS, "She prefers extravagant clothes."
It seems darn clear to me that beauty is emphasized at least a pretty good amount when it comes to Yukari, thematically. Even in-story, it's VERY clear that Yukari herself enjoys beautiful things. Certainly this aspect of her character is downplayed compared to Yuuka, but her love of beautiful things is shown or inferred to more than enough (more so than any other character besides Yuuka, really) for her to have conceivably been the author of the spell card rules, in my opinion.
...as an aside, I still see that as another one of the many parallels that leaves open the possibility Yukari was intended to be Yuuka's replacement before ZUN ended up bringing Yuuka back anyways (with a completely new theme). Also as an aside, I generally personally ignore the question of "Did Yuuka write the spell card rules instead of Yukari?" due to this cause it's honestly hard for me to view this current flower youkai Yuuka as anything more than ZUN nostalgically bringing the original version of character back for a brief cameo at the moment (with a new theme to differentiate her from the new version of her), due to Yuuka not showing up or being referenced in... well, ANYTHING besides PoFV or PMiSS (not even anything more than a cameo in any of the print works, IIRC, and even those were rare and more minor than the cameos most characters got). Therefore I'm personally inclined to view any such inquiries of Yuuka writing the spell card rules with a "Well, Yuuka was intended to have Yukari's role before Yukari replaced her anyways so it doesn't matter" personal reaction in my mind, though I don't expect such a statement to actually convince anyone of anything.
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I'm still waiting for a good answer, but this is as far as I can get now.
PMiSS, Reimu's entry, "Vampire Incident" section:
Originally, the raison d'etre of youkai lies in attacking humans. Since the Great Barrier was established, the youkai could no longer simply attack humans, what's more, they began to depend on [youkai who's responsible for food] to provide their food. As a result, the youkai's willpower began to decline.
Other than being forbidden from attacking villagers, specialization (so most youkai don't have to find food by themselves) is another cause for youkai's lack of exercise.
Some youkai still had willpower left. They found the situation unsavory/not good/not fun, and discussed it with the Hakurei shrine maiden. The shrine maiden agreed with their opinion that daily life without large incidents would make youkai lazy, and a few battles are absolutely necessary.
"The shrine maiden also dislikes life without incident" is a mistranslation.
There were more than one youkai who still had willpower left. This passage comes after the vampire incident ending in a treaty, I initially presume that's saying some youkai weren't completely exhausted after the great vampire battle.
Then I realized there's a far better explanation, and the logic of the entire "Vampire Incident" section becomes clear. it's calling back to the "willpower decline" passage above, saying there are youkai who still hadn't completely lose all their willpower in time of peace. This suggests that the vampire incident gave them the best fight they had in a long time, and rekindled their desire for fighting. Of course they would be disappointed when the war ended in a peace treaty and new prohibitions. So they came to talk with Reimu, saying the youkai needs to fight more.
EDIT:
"The shrine maiden also dislikes life without incident" is probably not a mistranslation. Then the sentence would be:
The shrine maiden also found daily life without large Incidents extremely boring, and agreed with their opinion that a few battles are absolutely necessary.
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If the youkai don't do anything to reaffirm the fear and belief in them, they disappear. I've touched on this a few times throughout the "discuss canon" threads. That's how youkai come into fruition and logically it's also what sustains them in both the outside world and Gensokyo.
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Hey, I've said that in this forum myself! I think it takes "willpower to fight" to attack humans, and "willpower to fight" is (was?) an important virtue for the youkai, but willpower in itself doesn't maintain youkai's existence.
Further discussion and speculation:
1. My previous view was that there had always been as much fighting as we now have within Hakurei Barrier. Now I had to question this view. These passages imply that the time between Barrier Incident (a youkai civil war in which some youkai strongly opposed the creation of Hakurei Barrier) and Vampire Incident was a time of comparative peace. There might be the occasional Incident, but on average, since the youkai could no longer attack humans at will, fighting occured far less than in the pre-modern world. I'm not sure whether the banishment of underground exiles happened during this time.
2. Hatate is a typical new generation youth, used to living in peace. I think that's the real change caused by peace: the youkai society became further developed, in a way that's comparable to humans' Agricultural Revolution. Each youkai no longer has to go scaring humans by herself. and can devote her life to other pursues such as science or entertainment. This created relatively "civilized" youkai who have no "willpower" and take it easy. If you are a grumpy old youkai, or an admirer of the ever-changing outside world like Rinnosuke, certainly you can call it a horrible deterioration of youkai spirits. The fact youkai now have lives, identity and culture outside of scaring humans, and the protection of Gensokyo's borders, combined to make them capable of evolution independent of human imagination (SoPM, Kanako's speech). From a metafictional perspective, this ties in with the youkai's transformation from classical monsters to quirky girls (WaHH Ch. 9, Reimu's speech).
3. The spell card rules allow youkai to fight as much as they want again, so that Gensokyo now enjoys both the benefits of peace and fighting, ushering in a new golden age for Gensokyo. In a metafictional sense, this completes the fictional setting where quirky girls fight a lot.
4. We all know the essence of youkai is humanity's fear of the unknown. Are Kanako and Reimu suggesting that the very concept of youkai is changing into something else? ZUN is very careful about maintaining some of the mystique of the supernatural, even across the fourth wall (which causes people to endlessly wonder how dark the Touhou universe really is), so his youkai haven't completely stopped being manifestations of the unknown.
I hope this gets the point across; I kind of lost my steam in the middle.
On another note, I prefer the SC rules to be not sui generis, but rather a formalization of a convention already in use, just like a lot of rules in real life. It's a good thing that my idea can still fit in.
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Seems "the shrine maiden also dislikes life without incident" is probably not a mistranslation after all. Then the sentence would be:
The shrine maiden also found daily life without large Incidents extremely boring, and agreed with their opinion that a few battles are absolutely necessary.
How Reimu feels about life without incidents, that makes for a great difference.
It's possible that the fightings, whether between youkai and humans or youkai and youkai, were greatly reduced after the Barrier Incident (pretty much confirmed), almost eliminated after the Vampire Incident (implied), and greatly increased after the spell card rules (implied).
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Even if it was a mistranslation, I don't think the meaning and interpretation changed much at all. Reimu dislikes boring things, and saying "she dislikes life without incident" is just a way of saying "having a boring life is boring". That's sort of what I like about Reimu's character too; despite how often she says she doesn't want to have to go do work and would just like a normal life, that's completely the opposite of her actual feelings and she's obviously happiest whenever she's busy and when things are actually boring, she's miserable.
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Yea, Reimu actually gets mad in Wild and Horned Hermit about the lack of youkai activity lately (she says it's because she can't do her duty without it, but...)
There's also that time she's clearly bored in SSiB, and it becomes a running gag when she thinks a new incident has sprung up only for it to be just someone visiting the shrine for no particularly interesting reason ("Oh. It's you.")
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(http://i.imgur.com/2mLp5.jpg)
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I only just realized the parallels between my theory above and Monster Inc.
Now to further examine the part about youkai changing:
(Don't forget there are other parts to my theory!)
Before Hakurei Barrier:
- Youkai was nothing but manifestation of human fear.
- Youkai's existence depends on human fear.
- Youkai is all about scaring humans, not much life and personality beyond that.
After Hakurei Barrier:
- Youkai have their own lives and personalities.
- Youkai have been somewhat decoupled from human fear, and can exist on their own to a certain degree.
- Youkai's images can now evolve on their own.
These are different facets of the same thing.
Metafictionally, this reminds me that, we modern people no longer perceives myths and legends as direct descriptions of the Real, but are still willing to turn them into stories, and take our characters from them, giving them new characterizations.
The youkai have disappeared from the domain of "what we believe to be real", yet live on in the domain of "what we don't believe to be real, yet important to us" - the domain of fiction.
In this light, the Hakurei Barrier is indeed a boundary between fiction and non-fiction.
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The same logic from the first section of the quote can be used to counter the second, unless you meant "the only two people that we know knew Reimu before their introductions are Yuuka and Alice".
What I mean is that while Reimu is not good at remembering names, but she does remember them, if she meets them more often. If we take a look at Mystic Square, Reimu only briefly met Alice and Alice looked different back then. So whether we use Mystic Square or not, the real point is that Alice recognizes Reimu. It could be that they fought back then, but considering that it was one fight, Reimu would not recognize Alice.
So, what I am saying is that Alice and Yuuka are the two people that Reimu is likely to know, however, as you have also mentioned, the description of Reimu's profile on Spell Card Rules, it seems like Alice is unlikely present, since Reimu would have known Alice if Alice did participate in discussions with her.
Which leads to why I don't believe Yukari is involved in the spell card rules. Whichever youkai who were discussing with Reimu would be the ones involved and the only one we know for a sure that Reimu recognizes prior to her introduction is Yuuka.
I don't quite agree that Yukari focuses on that much beauty. We can't quite use spell cards as an example of it being beautiful, since the idea behind a spell card is elegance and beauty. Which would mean that most spell cards are meant to be beautiful. What we should use is their theme and personality. PoFV's Yuuka emphasizes beauty and elegance, which is mentioned in the spell card rules. Yukari's theme and personality does not emphasize beauty, it emphasizes chaos.
The key points are really the 4 concepts listed on the spell card rules:
That youkai can easily cause disasters.
That humans can easily resolve disasters.
That use of one's full abilities is to be denied.
That there are no things superior to beauty and thought.
Concept three is most likely for the protection of the weaker participants.
Really, the main issue I have with Yukari being involved in spell card rules is that Reimu does not appear to know Yukari. Which should not be the case if Yukari were involved in the spell card rules, since there were discussions with the Hakurei Shrine maiden on this topic. So, my belief is either random youkai we have not met who Reimu recognizes or Yuuka.
@Yukari and appreciation of beauty: Yes, she appreciates beauty, like many other people, but that is not her thematically speaking. If it was Yuyuko, then yes, I can see it, because Yuyuko's theme also has beauty in it. Same deal with Kaguya, not so for Eirin, Remilia or Flandre.
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Maybe the "beauty" that the Spell Card Rules refer to is each one's personal interpretation of the concept or to simply show off their creativity or to express their true selves, the essence of who and what they are and what makes them tick.
*shrugs*
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Really, the main issue I have with Yukari being involved in spell card rules is that Reimu does not appear to know Yukari. Which should not be the case if Yukari were involved in the spell card rules, since there were discussions with the Hakurei Shrine maiden on this topic.
It's the youkai that didn't like the restriction contract that decided to discuss the matter further. It's never said that these are the same youkai that actually suggested the rules or gave Reimu the draft; the only evidence of that process is indeed the draft, which is completely unattributed to anyone. And as we've mentioned, Yukari could have easily shuffled the draft to Reimu anonymously without her noticing anyways. Especially so if the previous theory of her masterminding the restricting contract in order to introduce balanced rules lines up. If you want to stretch lack of information, it's even possible Ran gave the draft to Reimu in Yukari's stead and Reimu doesn't have to know either of them that way. Lastly, if there actually were many youkai discussing the rules with Reimu, then why would she necessarily have to remember one of them in particular, or any of them at all, really?
Besides, as mentioned, wouldn't it make sense to have taken note of who gave her the draft or who suggested the rules if it were a character that actually discussed it with her? Akyuu makes a pretty clear "lol who did it" move on top of that, so it seems really weird to think it's Yuuka and then have no other passages besides the concept of formal battling and gracefulness, which it does attribute to all older wise youkai. She's almost never shown in the series after PoFV and she doesn't really do much of anything. The formal battling fits, but her personality and style is quite the opposite of what's described in the rules. Yuuka isn't interested in "incidents", she never goes easy, likes to use physical attacks while neglecting her own magic and ability, and is only interested in powerful opponents rather than evening the field between all fighters. The spell card rules explicitly attempt to balance incidents between all humans and youkai, suppress your full power, express yourself meaningfully, can't repeatedly use physical attacks, and you can't kill humans.
If you want to use "beauty" as theming of Yuuka, then I'm going to say "thought" and "meaningfulness", "order" and "balance" described in the rules are all common attributes of Yukari. Yukari is also fully aware of the possibility of youkai vanishing and/or Gensokyo collapsing if there is no conflict, which is the point of the first paragraph. Yukari winning out in a battle of planning and thought amongst which rules to use, when the other participants were also wise youkai, is just too perfect. Realize though, I can certainly humour the idea of Yuuka suggesting the Spell Card Rules; I did at some point think it could have been her as well, and there are some nice nudges in her direction. But in a discussion like this where we're trying to find the best possible fit when considering all the details we can think of, I'm going to stand my ground here.
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The key points are really the 4 concepts listed on the spell card rules:
That youkai can easily cause disasters.
That humans can easily resolve disasters.
That use of one's full abilities is to be denied.
That there are no things superior to beauty and thought.
Concept three is most likely for the protection of the weaker participants.
Really, the main issue I have with Yukari being involved in spell card rules is that Reimu does not appear to know Yukari. Which should not be the case if Yukari were involved in the spell card rules, since there were discussions with the Hakurei Shrine maiden on this topic. So, my belief is either random youkai we have not met who Reimu recognizes or Yuuka.
@Yukari and appreciation of beauty: Yes, she appreciates beauty, like many other people, but that is not her thematically speaking. If it was Yuyuko, then yes, I can see it, because Yuyuko's theme also has beauty in it. Same deal with Kaguya, not so for Eirin, Remilia or Flandre.
So, you reckon Yuuka has a thematic emphasis on the fourth concept, fair enough.
One could argue Yukari has thematic emphasis on the other three, though. She lectures Reimu on her duty regarding solving disasters, and her PMiSS article clearly points out that she restricts herself to around her opponent's level when fighting.
Meanwhile Yuuka, staying at her field most of the time, doesn't have much to do with incidents in general, and seems to prefer curbstomping to holding back.
...I was going to write more, but Drake's pretty much covered it already, so I'll settle for pointing out that since PC-98 canon is seperate from windows, so using Mystic square evidence on a windows discussion isn't worth much. For all we know, Alice met Reimu when she tagged along on one of Marisa's shrine visits or something.
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"Use of full ability is denied" is an extremely liberal translation. A literal translation is:
Pure determination-by-strength is to be denied.
The point isn't about forbidding full power, but explicitly about leveling the playing field between the weak and the strong.
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I'm going to contest that; while I agree that 完全な実力主義 is roughly "entirely true-power-based principles", in the case of high-level youkai, it basically is the same as outright forbidding the use of full power. Perhaps it's a misnomer and isn't quite the point, but the previous arguments still apply to both Yuuka and Yukari. Yuuka still isn't interested in small fry and prefers beating the pulp out of the opponent, while Yukari tends to balance herself, simply to provide a fairer and more interesting fight.
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According to Yuuka's profile, she fights under rules (not necessarily "restriction of power" if I recall correctly, but it's probably essentially the same thing depending on what the rules are) when dealing with other high power youkai. Which is where the spell card thematics come in regards to that (however, the current translation also makes it clear that ALL old youkai do this because to fight at full power against another old youkai would be stupid and lead to a never ending battle. I suppose it's debatle how much that reason applies to the spell card rules). Of course, holding back is also mentioned in Yukari's profile, albeit much more briefly (again why I think Yuuka is mostly an inside-reference to before ZUN switched her role with Yukari.... and again, I don't expect anyone else to believe that).
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Let me write down the supporting theories I know of for each character and add on my comments:
Yukari - Strong evidence suggests that she wrote the vampire contract.
She is involved in many of Gensokyo's activities, including but not limited to Lunar War, barrier of illusion and reality, creation of Hakurei barrier.
Therefore it can be safe to assume that she could possibly have suggested the Spell Card Rules.
Holding back is something mentioned in Yukari's profile, which is concept 3.
Con - Does not know Reimu prior to her introduction.
Does not have a beauty theme.
Yuuka - Her theme fits the Spell Card Rules. PoFV, which is her first Windows appearance suggests that she values beauty.
It can been seen in her motif and what she does.
Reimu knows her prior to her introduction.
Her profile suggests she fights with certain rule sets, which can possibly be what spell card rules become today.
Con - One of the spell card rules listed attacks of physical attacks are not to be repeated, this is not what Yuuka would like to propose.
@Spell Card Rules:
Yes, you are right that it never said those same youkai also suggested the rules. However, the implication is there.
It is hard to believe that those same youkai would not have inputted their idea on what kind of rules they would use to make life less boring.
It is only logical to believe that those same youkai who had a discussion with Reimu would also be the ones that created a draft of some kind.
As for the amount of youkai in discussion with Reimu, there are probably not a lot of them. Unless there is a translation error, it seems to imply that only the more willful youkai are in this discussion, so my assumption is small number.
These are the relevant texts from PMiSS with suggestions on creation of Spell Card Rules:
Some of the more willful youkai found these terms distasteful and entered into discussions with the Hakurei shrine maiden.
The shrine maiden, who was also tiring of an uneventful lifestyle, agreed to the youkai point of view that some battles were necessary.
The result of this were the spell card rules, which allowed duelists to seemingly stake their lives in individual combat (*4).
4: It appears various other rules were also considered, but as the beauty and volume of danmaku especially appealed to youkai and women, they aren't as popular.
On the Draft of the Spell Card Rules, PMiSS suggests that a youkai proposed it to Reimu. Since Akyuu wasn't actually there, she can only have theories on who actually proposed the draft.
She's almost never shown in the series after PoFV and she doesn't really do much of anything. The formal battling fits, but her personality and style is quite the opposite of what's described in the rules. Yuuka isn't interested in "incidents", she never goes easy, likes to use physical attacks while neglecting her own magic and ability, and is only interested in powerful opponents rather than evening the field between all fighters.
Wait, I am confused, I don't remember it ever saying that she never goes easy. I don't believe there is any indication of that matter.
Is there a passage somewhere that implies that this is the case?
She does like to use physical attacks and is interested in powerful opponents.
I was under the impression that the first 2 concepts were that youkai did not want to live a boring life style. The 3rd concept is precaution, because going all out has repercussions on Gensokyo.
I did not mention the first 3 concepts, because they would fit any youkai that would propose this. The 4th concept is the only one I mentioned, because that concept is more specific to some youkai.
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I actually got the exact opposite feeling regarding the youkai that talked with Reimu and the one that wrote the spell card rules, personally. The way I read it, Akyu bringing up the mystery of the youkai thematically implied that it was a mystery to EVERYONE, Reimu included, and the fact that Akyu brought it up at all showed that it must have been a different youkai from the ones that discussed things with Reimu (since Akyu didn't show any curiosity regarding those youkai that did). Of course, there is nothing in-story to show/state that's the case, but it seemed to me an author would write it that way to make it one big "Who did it?" thing for all involved. That was my first instinct when I read it long ago as a Touhou newbie (even before I started piecing together all this Yukari stuff) and I still feel that way reading it today.
On a different note, the youkai (as in, youkais, but like "Ninjas", I'm not sure you're supposed to add an 's' to refer to the plural) that discussed things with Reimu was specifically plural according to the current translation ("some of the youkai"). Which IMHO to me would mean that the one who wrote the contract, assuming it's a singular youkai, would thus likely thematically be a different youkai. Although I guess you could also make the argument that maybe multiple youkai teamed up to write the spell card rules (which is a possibility. Not my own personal belief but it could be true. As a side tangent, the possibility of it as well as other things does make me wish for a moment in canon where Yuuka and Yukari interact with each other)
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Ahem, have you realized that what I posted was directly related to your discussion? I'll give you a summary of the relevant bits:
- After the Hakurei Barrier was established, youkai can't attack humans easily (forbidden from attacking villager?) and have their food provided by youkai food suppliers, so youkai's willpower was on decline.
- Some youkai still had willpower left. After the vampire incident, they found the situation distasteful / not fun / not good for Gensokyo's future, so they came to discuss it with Reimu.
I offered two interpretations of the "distasteful" bit:
1) The prohibitions and the peace treaty after the vampire incident was suffocating for those youkai;
2) The vampire incident gave them a chance to fight again, and they wanted to fight more.
So, it seems entirely reasonable some old youkai who had willpower (to fight) gave the rules to Reimu, as long as you trust Akyu here.
Regarding Yuuka, Eiki specially told her she didn't attack humans enough, which puts whether she belonged in this "still had willpower left" group in question.
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I thought she just said that attacking humans was the good deed she could do?
Although Perfect Memento specifically states that Yuuka's pretty darn inactive these days, too ("She doesn't move from her flower fields very much these days" or something like that)
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Regarding Yuuka, Eiki specially told her she didn't attack humans enough, which puts whether she belonged in this "still had willpower left" group in question.
Is that what Eiki said? The dialogue I am seeing on the wiki does not seem to say that. Were there some changes to the translation?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Story/Yuuka%27s_Scenario#Yuuka_vs._Eiki_.28Episode_Final.29
@PMiSS article about Yuuka: Yeah, it does say that.
So, my question is, is she active during the creation of the Spell Card Rules? Or does PMiSS imply that she is inactive during that time as well?
The creation of spell card rules happen some time before EoSD, which is a while ago.
Oh, I have some more comments about the 4 concepts.
Concept 1 and 3 seems to be something the youkai proposed.
Concept 2, I believe Reimu added that, as I don't really see youkai adding concept 2.
Concept 4, I guess either one could have proposed that, but I believe the youkai also proposed this.
However, if you were to argue concept 2 is added by youkai, then Yukari or Alice would be one of the few youkai that it would make sense to add this concept. Though, I do believe Reimu added this, as it makes the most sense.
@cuc: I was not aware that what you mentioned was relevant to the spell card rules creation, so I did not mention it on my previous post.
@draft: I guess I read it differently that you. The way I read it, I was always under the impression that some youkai proposed this to Reimu and the reason why Akyuu does not know was because she wasn't there. I also got the who did it vibe from Akyuu. I think she is curious to know who could have written that.
In either case, if it was Yuuka that wrote that, it would still be a who did it vibe, since Akyuu wouldn't know. Same deal with if it was Yukari that wrote that.
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The last part about Akyuu needing to point out a whodunnit expands beyond Akyuu simply not knowing and turns into a literary device. In context, Akyuu would just go ask who composed the draft (or be written to already know, for the sake of information in the book), or make some guesses (beyond "a youkai"). That's how the whole book is written. Pointing it out without expanding at all is why there's a clear question posed that is meant to have an answer, rather than having the book simply ignoring the whole thing and leaving it to the imagination.
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Is that what Eiki said? The dialogue I am seeing on the wiki does not seem to say that. Were there some changes to the translation?
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Phantasmagoria_of_Flower_View/Story/Yuuka%27s_Scenario#Yuuka_vs._Eiki_.28Episode_Final.29
Why does this dialogue look so different from what I remembered? Guess I really should've double-checked and maybe third-checked using the actual game.
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That was the dialogue I read when I looked into PoFV, which is why I am confused. However, it does not necessarily mean that is the correct dialogue, because translation errors exist.
In context, Akyuu would just go ask who composed the draft (or be written to already know, for the sake of information in the book), or make some guesses (beyond "a youkai"). That's how the whole book is written. Pointing it out without expanding at all is why there's a clear question posed that is meant to have an answer, rather than having the book simply ignoring the whole thing and leaving it to the imagination.
I guess, if you read it that way. I thought it was meant for people to make guesses, kind of like how Akyuu makes a bunch of wild theories about Mokou, Sakuya, and several other characters' backgrounds. But I guess the way you are interpreting it is that since she is not pointing out theories, there is a clear answer, which I disagree.
We do have some sort of hint to who made the spell card rules, but it is vague. Pretty much, we have this under Colophon:
PMiSS: Spell Card Duels, written by The Society for Creating a New Gensokyo
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A minor update. I finally started to play the PC-98 games. How can I forgot this...
The term "Spirit Strike" actually is the name for bombs in all PC-98 games (including HRtP), except for PoDD, where each character's bombs have a different name, and only Reimu's bombs are called "Spirit Strikes". The bombs in PC-98 games look and function very differently from the Spirit Strikes of Windows canon.
It's still safe to presume that the English fandom convention of translating Spirit Strike into "bomb" originated from IaMP's interface. Of course, I'm unfamiliar with the history of the Western Touhou fandom, so I can't say for sure. Is there anyone here who participated in the translation of SWR, MoF, SA and UFO?
Some personal musings:
Actually seeing the PC-98 games running is an entire different experience from watching heavily compressed 30fps videos. There are even more special graphical effects than I thought. I've always seen them as comparable to programs written by the demoscene, squeezing graphical effects out of obsolete hardware, and coupling it with memorable music. The comparison now seems even more fitting. I wonder How many programmers were experimenting with similar tricks on old Japanese computers back then?
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I think it is more of a shooter game thing. If you play games like Raiden, 1942, and other games that let you shoot things as a plane. A lot of them have a "bomb" and a regular shot. The bomb sometimes provides short duration invincibility and also usually clears the screen of bullets and enemy units.
This is probably where the term bomb comes from, since Touhou is a shooter game.
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Another really minor update: I looked at the manuals of the PC-98 games slightly more carefully, and realized that only Reimu's bombs are "Spirit Strike" (current wiki translation is "Spiritual Attack").
In the Reimu-only games (HRtP, SoEW), "Spirit Strike" is written on the game UI.
The PoDD manual named everyone's bombs, and Reimu's are "Spirit Strikes".
According to the manuals for LLS and MS, "Spirit Strike" is one of Reimu's abilities, but they didn't name the other characters' bombs.
Of course these details mean nothing in the current canon. :derp:
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Of course these details mean nothing in the current canon. :derp:
That's not totally right too. Reimu's system card in Soku is "Spirit Strike Talisman", still giving her a special link to Spirit Strike.
Anyway, I'd like to ask you: what are some common myths and misunderstandings regarding the canon? I may try to turn this thread into a collection of them. Of course, first I'll need the spare time to do that...
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Not all misunderstandings are results of mistranslations though.
One topic on my mind recently is that the SSiB plot summary in the wiki's Tewi page says the earth rabbits are unaware of the fate of Ookuninushi, when SSiB itself has made absolutely no such statement.
Due to the white hare of Inaba story, rabbits are sacred animals at Izumo Great Shrine (the main shrine of Ookuninushi, and where he is sealed according to SSiB), I find it more likely they know exactly what has happened to him.
<Tengukami> For future reference, you don't need to triple post - just edit the last post you made. It'd be appreciated, thanks!
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I read SSiB, but I don't quite remember all the details of that manga. So, contrasting what the wiki says, SSiB makes no mention of the earth rabbits being unaware of Ookuninushi's fate?
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Here's the relevant chapter (http://mangafox.me/manga/touhou_bougetsushou_silent_sinner_in_blue/v01/c019/1.html) where they talk about Daikoku's fate. 12-16 is the Reisen section.
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So Takeminekata is sealed in the Moriya Shrine as well?
I wonder what would happen if those two got unsealed? I bet a lot of fun would be had.
(The rabbits would definitely be happy, that's for sure.)
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Yeah, I suppose so. It seems kind of crowded with so many deities being housed there, though. Kanako, Suwako, Takeminakata, Sanae and Mishaguji, if you want to count the last two. Although that chapter kind of says Kanako and Takeminakata are the same.
Kanako is really a strange, somewhat complicated mishmash of Takeminakata, the one who defeated him on behalf of the highest gods, Takemikazuchi, and the Suwa goddess Takeminakata married, Yasakatome. Thus, as the goddess who was already at Suwa, Suwako is basically in Yasakatome's role. Like I said, complicated, although I've seen fanstuffs that have tried to rectify everything.
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And then we got the Mishaguji, who were there before everyone else.
Man, I bet if Takaminekata were unsealed, and the Mishaguji could do stuff outside of spellcards, the Moriya Shrine'd be one hell of a party place.
Wish I could go there, too bad it's all fictional...
(Outside of the regular festivals and banquets they have to further relations with worshippers and such that is.)
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Here's the relevant chapter (http://mangafox.me/manga/touhou_bougetsushou_silent_sinner_in_blue/v01/c019/1.html) where they talk about Daikoku's fate. 12-16 is the Reisen section.
Looks like there is no mention of unawareness.