Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Power on February 23, 2012, 11:15:39 PM

Title: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Power on February 23, 2012, 11:15:39 PM
Yeah I just played ten desires and I would say it's too easy for me.  When I first started that game I had problems and said it was too hard but back then I was a noob at that game.   Now I can beat normal easily and hard's kind of meh.  Hell I can beat lunatic maybe easily if I spent some time on it but the spellcards in that game are kind of meh.

What I'm trying to say is what should the perfect interval in touhou difficulty be for you?  I for one in the future would like touhou to be sort of hardish in generally as the series go's along just for us veterans but still be fair to new comers and maybe add a few easy games just cause.  So what do you think should be the perfect interval for difficulty in the future?   :derp:
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 24, 2012, 12:00:07 AM
Easy should be what it is.
Normal as is, though a few games could use a boost.
Hard should be harder, especially in a few of the games.
Lunatic should rip me to pieces, chew me up, spit me out, then stomp on me before kicking my pathetic ass to the curb.
I'm getting hot just thinking about it.
still be fair to new comers and maybe add a few easy games just cause.
There is no need for this. The easy difficulties can be easy for begginers and the higher difficulties should be geared toward veterens. UFO works nicely like that.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 24, 2012, 12:32:23 AM
When you put the whole series together, there's quite an even distribution of difficulty already. I'd rather new games with a natural progression of difficulty and a Lunatic fit for Lunatics, than new games that randomly cater to some demographic and leave out others, or have weird spikes in progression. Easy shouldn't actually be stupid easy (cough IN), but easy enough to complete if you try hard enough. Lunatic should kick my ass.

I'm pretty sure it goes without saying, but game mechanics and resources are a heavy factor too.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 24, 2012, 01:46:34 AM
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.  If they're made for the super-players then a majority of people would never even come close to beating them (a greater majority if applicable).
Easy is fine, normal is fine, hard is usually fine, lunatic is also usually fine, although they have gotten harder since MoF (TD is harder than EoSD is harder than IN is harder than MoF lunatic).
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on February 24, 2012, 02:39:11 AM
I play Easy to relax, I play Normal to have fun, I play Hard for a challenge, and I play Lunatic when I'm feeling ridiculous.

That's the general idea for me, and it expands over every Touhou I've played so far :V
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 24, 2012, 04:08:06 AM
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.  If they're made for the super-players then a majority of people would never even come close to beating them (a greater majority if applicable).
That's why you have lower difficulties. If most people can't come close to Lunatic then they can just play something easier. If Lunatic were to be made as easy as what would have otherwise been Hard, you shouldn't feel any better about clearing it just because it happens to be called "Lunatic" instead of "Hard." The highest difficulty should be all but unattainable, and the others descend from there.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 24, 2012, 04:19:17 AM
That's why you have lower difficulties. If most people can't come close to Lunatic then they can just play something easier. If Lunatic were to be made as easy as what would have otherwise been Hard, you shouldn't feel any better about clearing it just because it happens to be called "Lunatic" instead of "Hard." The highest difficulty should be all but unattainable, and the others descend from there.
Elitist attitudes suck >.>
and UFO hard felt as good to clear the first time as MoF lunatic did the first time, which felt the same as it did to clear IN easy the first time.  An accomplishment is an accomplishment regardless of the difficulty name (or difficulty of the game), and how hard it is varies from player to player.  You go perfect your lunatic modes and be 'meh that was easy', and I'll fight for my lunatic 1ccs and be 'that was brutal'.
The highest difficulty should be all but unattainable
This is the part I don't completely agree with: it SHOULD be attainable to those who practice, not only to those who invest their lives into the game.

Since that's 2 posts of mine, at the going rate that's my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Vanhaomena on February 24, 2012, 04:31:23 AM
I'd like it if the Lunatics were so insane you could stop cringing ay Youtube experts announcing "Touhou is harder" on every shmup video.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Thanuris on February 24, 2012, 04:31:54 AM
Why would you play the highest difficulty if you do not plan to invest time on the game? That's the whole point of having difficulties in the first place, if you just want to enjoy the ride you play the difficulty that you can handle the best, if you want to challenge your skills and spend time on the game you play the hardest one.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 24, 2012, 04:41:08 AM
Why would you play the highest difficulty if you do not plan to invest time on the game? That's the whole point of having difficulties in the first place, if you just want to enjoy the ride you play the difficulty that you can handle the best, if you want to challenge your skills and spend time on the game you play the hardest one.
I never said that investing time was bad, I said that you shouldn't need to invest your life into it (or hundreds of hours memorizing the game so you can have a slight chance at winning) in order to beat the highest difficulty.  I'd still like to have a chance to win without having to expend weeks (in terms of time spent playing) of time.
I'd like it if the Lunatics were so insane you could stop cringing ay Youtube experts announcing "Touhou is harder" on every shmup video.
Memes, how do they work.

Honestly due to the lunatic players going 'Ten Desires is cake' and the other players saying 'OMG WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?' (exaggeration) ZUN should add (as I believe Zengeku mentioned once) an actual Overdrive difficulty to cater to those players, while not alienating those who are able to do the existing lunatics.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Sen on February 24, 2012, 04:53:46 AM
Elitist attitudes suck >.>

I don't think he was being elitist, I think he was stating a simple fact: if you can't handle the hardest setting, go down a notch. It's pretty basic advice, really.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: MMX on February 24, 2012, 05:37:09 AM
Honestly due to the lunatic players going 'Ten Desires is cake' and the other players saying 'OMG WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?' (exaggeration) ZUN should add (as I believe Zengeku mentioned once) an actual Overdrive difficulty to cater to those players, while not alienating those who are able to do the existing lunatics.
That's why such a ridiculous thing like ultra patches appeared - to please those who find regular lunatics boring and easy :V
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 24, 2012, 05:43:28 AM
Elitist attitudes suck >.>
Well yes, but what he's talking about isn't really elitist at all.
UFO hard felt as good to clear the first time as MoF lunatic did the first time, which felt the same as it did to clear IN easy the first time.  An accomplishment is an accomplishment regardless of the difficulty name (or difficulty of the game), and how hard it is varies from player to player.  You go perfect your lunatic modes and be 'meh that was easy', and I'll fight for my lunatic 1ccs and be 'that was brutal'.
That's exactly his (our) point; since the difficulties of the games vary and provide a relatively even distribution of difficulty, the series already provides something for most players. To expand, you either lower the easiest or raise the hardest; considering easy only gets so easy before it's lost its charm as a danmaku game, the main way to accommodate players is to go up. You still get the lower difficulties, so why should people who can play that blistering difficulty be pushed aside? 10D was boring to most Lunatics because there's nothing harder in the game to challenge.
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.  If they're made for the super-players then a majority of people would never even come close to beating them (a greater majority if applicable).
Here as well, you seem to be missing that "Lunatic" is only a label. They're the hardest difficulty because you're supposed to be able to do all the difficulties lower than it first. That's how difficulties work. On the way up to the Lunatics, you gradually work your way up the ladder until you're good enough at the game. If the majority of people aren't willing to practice or "just can't", then holy cow they won't be able to clear, but they're still happy clearing the difficulty they're comfortable with. Naturally, a majority of people won't be able to beat the hardest difficulties of a game series renowned for its difficulty. If you want to have a chance at beating them, you have to work your way there. It isn't unattainable.
This is the part I don't completely agree with: it SHOULD be attainable to those who practice, not only to those who invest their lives into the game.
While I understand the notion of people not wanting to spend "a lifetime" practicing one game genre, this is very unspecific. Where does your boundary of "investing a lot of time/practicing" and "investing your life" lie? If you even have an estimate, why would you assume your standard is the same as everyone else's?

I never said that investing time was bad, I said that you shouldn't need to invest your life into it (or hundreds of hours memorizing the game so you can have a slight chance at winning) in order to beat the highest difficulty.  I'd still like to have a chance to win without having to expend weeks (in terms of time spent playing) of time.
In the Player Stats section of the popularity contest, most of my games range around 100 to 150 hours. Many others practice more than that, many others practice less than that. Just because you don't want to spend a similar amount of time doesn't mean it's unfair, it just means you won't get to beat Lunatics. Too bad for you.

Honestly due to the lunatic players going 'Ten Desires is cake' and the other players saying 'OMG WHAT IS THIS!?!?!?' (exaggeration) ZUN should add (as I believe Zengeku mentioned once) an actual Overdrive difficulty to cater to those players, while not alienating those who are able to do the existing lunatics.
No. Once again, "Lunatic" is just a label for the hardest difficulty. You don't need to add another difficulty level to actually incorporate that difficulty, just leave it as Lunatic and distribute the other difficulties evenly. Unless they're significantly better than the norm, Lunatic players should never be able to go into a new game and 1cc it without much effort. Refer to above.

That's why such a ridiculous thing like ultra patches appeared - to please those who find regular lunatics boring and easy :V
while this is true you're sort of missing the underlying point

Memes, how do they work.
It's a meme in different groups for different reasons. The vast majority of people who claim that have no credibility whatsoever. A lesser portion just take advantage of the obvious stupidity and use it as fickle troll material. The least portion is a group of a bunch of Lunatic players who participated in STGT 2011 under the team names "Touhou is Harder" and "Touhou is TOO EASY". Both did extremely well, and TiH tied for first place. Now it's an in-joke.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Pesco on February 24, 2012, 06:53:22 AM
I play on Easy. With hax. And I'm proud of it. :D
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Lepetit89 on February 24, 2012, 12:24:21 PM

In the Player Stats section of the popularity contest, most of my games range around 100 to 150 hours. Many others practice more than that, many others practice less than that. Just because you don't want to spend a similar amount of time doesn't mean it's unfair, it just means you won't get to beat Lunatics. Too bad for you.
No. Once again, "Lunatic" is just a label for the hardest difficulty. You don't need to add another difficulty level to actually incorporate that difficulty, just leave it as Lunatic and distribute the other difficulties evenly. Unless they're significantly better than the norm, Lunatic players should never be able to go into a new game and 1cc it without much effort. Refer to above.

Agreed. Difficulty of Lunatic is just fine, catering to people who want to stroke their egos without too much effort because they beat something called "Lunatic" that's somewhere around the level of Hard would be just boring.

Quote from: I have no name
Elitist attitudes suck >.>
and UFO hard felt as good to clear the first time as MoF lunatic did the first time, which felt the same as it did to clear IN easy the first time.  An accomplishment is an accomplishment regardless of the difficulty name (or difficulty of the game), and how hard it is varies from player to player.  You go perfect your lunatic modes and be 'meh that was easy', and I'll fight for my lunatic 1ccs and be 'that was brutal'.

You're saying it yourself - an accomplishment is an accomplishment as long as it was hard to you, regardless of the name of the difficulty level, but the actual difficulty of the game definitely plays a role.

As long as you can accomplish something, isn't that fine already? If you don't want to invest the time necessary to clear the highest difficulty level, be content with beating Hard or Normal or whichever suits you best, that's what the difficulty levels are for in the first place - creating a game that players of all skills can enjoy to genuinely feel a sense of accomplishment.
Some will stop at  Easy or Normal, others at Hard and the rest can fight for their Lunatic 1CCs.

However, demanding that the overall difficulty be lowered would amount to little more than a slap in the face to those who happen to be too strong for lower difficulties or don't consider a 1CC much of an accomplishment unless they were pushed to their limits - it would essentially alienate an entire demographic just so some who want to beat the mode "called" Lunatic can beat it with an amount of effort they're comfortable with. That would completely contradict the purpose of having four different difficulty levels for little to no gain except for some people to get a false sense of accomplishment because they put too much thought into the name of the difficulty mode they just beat.

For that reason, demanding difficulty isn't elitist at all, on the contrary, demanding that the overall difficulty be lowered is quite egoistical in my opinion.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Desu_Cake on February 24, 2012, 12:56:43 PM
I feel that in the newer games, the difficulties are too close together. In TD I often forget whether I'm playing easy or normal, they're so similar. I much prefer the spread-out-ness of the earlier games. Mostly because I suck and still haven't managed to beat MoF, SA or UFO even on easy yet, while in EoSD, PCB and IN I have no problems on easy, then when I move to normal I get a bit more of a challenge. I wish it went back to that.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 24, 2012, 02:25:13 PM
Lunatic should rip me to pieces, chew me up, spit me out, then stomp on me before kicking my pathetic ass to the curb.
All of my posts basically come down to disagreeing with this.
I'd like to at least have a chance at beating the lunatics.
I've beaten all of the lunatics up to MoF, and each of the other hard modes too.  So if lunatic were to suddenly become th elunatic Zil wants, the lunatic players are now split into 2: those who clear, and those who can't clear the difficulty level they're used to playing, and hard mode is too easy for them (unless of course hard becomes harder, in which case the hard players get that dilemma-hard is too hard, normal is too easy).  From a game design perspective, you don't want a huge difficulty gap between difficulties.

I guess my reasoning is I want the difficulty of each difficulty level to be somewhat standard across each game in the series-a slight rise is fine by me, it gives the series a difficulty curve.  This might be why the lunatic players are the only ones that seem to bash TD-it's relatively easy compared to UFO, the previous game.

I don't feel like digging through quote walls and responding to each wall of text post individually, I just figured I'd explain my reasoning which I realized overnight.

tl;dr I have my opinion, I have reasons for my opinion, I identify myself as playing hard/lunatic, if lunatic were to become http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ) i nthe next game, and hard were to match anything but UFO, then I wouldn't have a difficulty to challenge myself-hard would be to easy, lunatic would be too hard.
Well yes, but what he's talking about isn't really elitist at all.
It came across that way to me last night.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 24, 2012, 03:21:48 PM
All of my posts basically come down to disagreeing with this.

If you want Lunatic to be as easy as, say, Hard, why don't you just play Hard? What would be the point of playing Lunatic then? Just to be able to say "I played Lunatic"?

Your problem is already solved - if you found Lunatic too hard, there are easier difficulties. If you just want the easier difficulty to be called "Lunatic", well, tough.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: MTSranger on February 25, 2012, 12:31:22 AM
The easy difficulties can be easy for begginers and the higher difficulties should be geared toward veterens. UFO works nicely like that.
Imo UFO doesn't rly work nicely like that. UFO normal had got to be the most frustrating 1cc I had back then. I jumped from EoSD and IN to UFO, and the result was arfgh. Now, if I had worked through the series in order, it might have been a bit easier, cuz by the time I get to UFO I would've had plenty of experience, so I don't blame the game.

tl;dr I have my opinion, I have reasons for my opinion, I identify myself as playing hard/lunatic, if lunatic were to become http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ) i nthe next game, and hard were to match anything but UFO, then I wouldn't have a difficulty to challenge myself-hard would be to easy, lunatic would be too hard.
^ Yeah, if easier difficulties were to stay the same and harder difficulties slowly increase, you can only do so much before the gap (of, say, hard -> lunatic) becomes too big (i.e. like easy -> lunatic in PCB). However, imo that won't happen for quite a while unless every game has a jump akin to MoF -> SA or even SA -> UFO (lunatic).

I support a bit slower increase in difficulty - so that I can keep playing something harder each time, but not so hard that it requires me to take an extra loooonng break practicing lots of stuff before I have any chance of beating it. I guess a lot of the opinions from lower level "lunatic" players like me are because in the lunatic difficulties, MoF -> SA and SA -> UFO are such huge jumps that we get stuck with nothing new to play with for a long time (almost 10 months for me, from MoF -> SA, and I'm slowly chewing away at UFO, but don't plan to 1cc anytime soon).

For newcomers, I guess the later games will start to have the hard/lunatic drift further and further away from normal, which could look really intimidating (ala UFO). That might be fine imo, considering that older games will have the more user-friendly hard difficulties from which newcomers can slowly work their way up.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: trancehime on February 25, 2012, 01:06:34 AM
I'm sorry, but the whole notion that higher difficulties need to be forcibly catering towards those who aren't even willing to invest a reasonable amount of time to get to that point where they can handle a higher difficulty is just selfish. As primarily a PC-98 player who has 1cc'd all the PC-98 games with all the characters on Lunatic, spending 2+ months PER GAME and PER CHARACTER to get to that point, to see people saying that they want that point to be attainable in a few days is just being ridiculous. Lunatic difficulty exists precisely for those who are seeking an incredibly difficult challenge - hence the name Lunatic. If you really want to just have a "hard" game, play the games on Hard difficulty. That's why it's THERE. It hurts and pains me to see people that feel genuinely entitled to demand that Lunatic difficulty should be lowered to a "doable" state of difficulty when they completely ignore the fact Hard difficulty exists. What is the big deal about Lunatic now? Just the name? It is not like anybody here cares about my PoDD Lunatic 1cc, and I know there was a time when MANY people thought PoDD Lunatic was one of the hardest Lunatic clears to even pull off consistently, until the newer games came out (which I don't play because I don't like them and I never will probably).

From a game design perspective, you don't want a huge difficulty gap between difficulties.

From a game design perspective, progressive difficulties should be noticeable! You already have a Hard difficulty, so it's only natural that the next difficulty from Hard is something that's harder than Hard. In some games, like UFO, Lunatic is going to be balls-hard and I don't think many people will outright disagree with me here unless they rely on cheese-hax. And that should be fine. The Lunatic difficulties are SUPPOSED to cater to people who enjoy a ridiculous challenge. If you happen to be able to beat it easily then that's all nice and good but when you encounter a Lunatic which you have trouble with because you encounter things you don't know how to deal with without considerable amounts of practice and then start complaining about it, then that's kind of... Yeah. You claim to have beaten all the Lunatics up to MoF, yet seem to be completely apprehensive towards the idea that Lunatic could and might probably even get harder from your base expectations.

Is there a reason for that?

Quote
I guess my reasoning is I want the difficulty of each difficulty level to be somewhat standard across each game in the series-a slight rise is fine by me, it gives the series a difficulty curve.  This might be why the lunatic players are the only ones that seem to bash TD-it's relatively easy compared to UFO, the previous game.

Well this doesn't answer my question directly. But uh, I don't think difficulty level intervals have ever been standard. Difficulty levels in games should have proper difficulty curves but an entire goddamn series should NOT be restricted to that same freaking curve, it just makes the series mind-blowingly boring from a gameplay perspective and people would expect the same things all the freaking time. AND keep in mind that each of the Windows Touhou games had their OWN unique mechanics which attributed to the difficulty, or the difficulty of getting a good score on it, so you have to keep THAT in consideration too. I have half a mind to say UFO was difficult not only because of the danmaku and stuff but also because of the obnoxious (IMO) UFO system.

Quote
tl;dr I have my opinion, I have reasons for my opinion, I identify myself as playing hard/lunatic, if lunatic were to become http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ) i nthe next game, and hard were to match anything but UFO, then I wouldn't have a difficulty to challenge myself-hard would be to easy, lunatic would be too hard.

Yeah, you have your opinion, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to disagree with it. Which most of us do. Pretty flagrantly, I might add.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Erppo on February 25, 2012, 01:15:28 AM
Please tell me what does easier Lunatic level give to anyone.

If the game has a difficulty level that's beyond your current skill level, then what does it take away from you? You should still have one level that's best suited to your skills, and as an added bonus, you will still have something left when you get better.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 25, 2012, 01:15:38 AM
Imo UFO doesn't rly work nicely like that. UFO normal had got to be the most frustrating 1cc I had back then. I jumped from EoSD and IN to UFO, and the result was arfgh. Now, if I had worked through the series in order, it might have been a bit easier, cuz by the time I get to UFO I would've had plenty of experience, so I don't blame the game.

It's good that you have that perspective. I think it's healthy to do like you do, accepting the games on their own terms. Also bear in mind you went from one of the easier games in the series to one of the more difficult ones. That might have contributed to the steep learning curve, too.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 25, 2012, 01:24:06 AM
It is not like anybody here cares about my PoDD Lunatic 1cc
I care about a PoDD Lunatic 1cc. It's only the best game in the series, after all. :D

Wow this thread's really... taken off.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: LeviLamprey on February 25, 2012, 03:09:48 AM
I don't really mind how spread-out and badly tested the games are: the difficulties are all accomplishable, and while I guess five difficulties would be really good, it's not really necessary. What I DO have a little bit of annoyance with is spellcard inconsistency. I'm not talking about the natural variation within difficulties, I mean things like IMperishable Night. Just look at the spells. Words cannot even begin to describe...
And Kogasa's final Easy card is also far harder than all of IN Normal, etc. etc.
./pointless raging :U
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 25, 2012, 03:13:24 AM
What I DO have a little bit of annoyance with is spellcard inconsistency. I'm not talking about the natural variation within difficulties, I mean things like IMperishable Night. Just look at the spells. Words cannot even begin to describe...

Can you try? I'm having trouble understanding what you're referring to here.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: chirpy13 on February 25, 2012, 03:31:10 AM
Can you try? I'm having trouble understanding what you're referring to here.
Easy, easy, easy, HOLY SHIT IT'S KEINE, Asteroid Belt, easy, easy, Kaguya.  Or at least that's what I got from it.  Stage 3 feels like a stage 5, stage 5 feels like a stage 3.  You typically expect your game to get steadily more difficult as you progress, but IN was just all over the place.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Lepetit89 on February 25, 2012, 08:22:31 AM
I care about a PoDD Lunatic 1cc. It's only the best game in the series, after all. :D

Wow this thread's really... taken off.

But of course, Shoot 'em ups are one of the genres left untainted by the demand for easier and easier games, the very notion of changing that comes close to setting a hornet's nest on fire.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: LeviLamprey on February 25, 2012, 09:49:26 AM
^What he said.
The stage difficulties are all crazy because of all those spells.
Normal players face Earthlight Ray, while Lunatic players go FUCK IT'S KEINE and then cheese off Shoot the Moon. Asteroid Belt is harder on Hard than most Lunatic cards, TBH. Kaguya's Normal Dragon Necklace is largely RNG-based (as are most of her spells, to an extent, especially Buddhist Die-mond) and very hard to capture when compared to lots of Lunatic spells, outperforming all of Wriggle and Mystia's with ease, and then Salamander Shield is just really easy. Keine's EX spells are grossly mismatched to Mokou's in difficulty (even though I suck at Mokou ;A;). Tewi's nonspells are harder than Reisen for most everyone (I say this because I myself am better at Kaguya than Reisen D:). ZUN himself has admitted to being drunk at times while working on IN, but it still bugs me...

etc. etc.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 25, 2012, 09:58:16 AM
But of course, Shoot 'em ups are one of the genres left untainted by the demand for easier and easier games, the very notion of changing that comes close to setting a hornet's nest on fire.
Way to go completely ignoring the arguments presented in the thread and just going "well they're just elitist". You're sounding really passive-aggressively snarky for someone who seemingly just glazed over the meaty posts. EDIT: lol my mistake whoops. I posted a wall anyways.



The series is a danmaku (translator's note: it means bullet curtain, because there are supposed to be a lot of bullets) that is renowned for its difficulty and beauty. As people play the games, they don't get progressively worse through practice, and they aren't trying to not-clear the games. You don't have to open up a new, easier difficulty because people spontaneously have the desire to fail at the games and therefore need easier difficulties to fail at. When you talk about game series becoming progressively easier, you're actually talking about lowering the barrier to entry. You're talking about opening the genre up to people who have no initial desire to improve and complete the game, but rather to get the instant gratification of completing the game without much effort at all. You're talking about people who are being introduced to video games or don't have an attention span great enough to stay on a single difficult task without giving up and doing something else. If the series did need to become easier, it would be because the lowest difficulty is too difficult for people to obtain interest in the game, to the extent that you are actually losing a significant amount of sales. And if you were talking about a game that is attempting to target a certain casual audience and the producers had to make a decision on whether to lower the barrier to entry so today's little kids can play Mario for two minutes without throwing the controller out the window, then you'd be right; that, unfortunately, is a good idea.

However, Touhou is a doujin project that is run by a single person, and doesn't rely exclusively on sales, so the number of people playing the games does not really affect the game's structure. Furthermore, Touhou's notoriety is already greatly established. If people want to play the games, it's because they want to delve into the challenging realm that is danmaku. They've almost certainly seen someone else playing, whether a video or in person. If they want to play and actively get good enough to clear some difficulty, then they know they're in for a bumpy ride. If they go even further, then that applies even more so. If they don't want to actually play the games, but instead create doujin material like music and books and art because they're interested in that side of Touhou, then awesome for them; that's probably a significant portion of the fandom. They don't have any bearing on the overall demographic of the people who play the games.

Now, if we're talking about the people who want to clear the game, but are currently so bad that they need a lowest difficulty, they have... IN Easy. Arguably the easiest entry in all of Touhou. If you made something much easier than IN Easy, I'd be inclined to reject it as actually being a danmaku anymore. It'd be more like playing a VN where the only bad options are things like "burn your house down" and "see if you can fit that whole knife in your throat". From IN Easy, the difficulties throughout all the games mesh into a fabric that basically has something for everyone between there, and UFO Lunatic. I don't think there is anyone who fits into that range who is left out. Anyone who's made it to the point of UFO Lunatic has a game that probably yields a sufficient challenge such that they struggle to beat it but can feasibly aim for completion. Through demographics alone, it's pretty safe to say that if anything, the Easy and Normal mode players have a greater variety of games and difficulties to challenge them, than the Lunatic players do. The gaps in difficulty increase fairly non-linearly, so naturally the Lunatic players have less to work with (this is also why many venture towards other danmaku series). And that's okay; the demographics also point out that the vast majority of Touhou players fit into the Easy-Normal categories. Moreso, the Hard and Lunatic players have likely been playing so long that the challenge alone is enough motivation. The ever-slightly larger gap in difficulty is equalized by the player's insistence that beating it is a feasible goal, and that mindset is learned through practice and clearing the easier difficulties.

As said, people do not attempt to get worse at a game and therefore need easier difficulties. After time, people improve at the game. They get better and better until they can conquer everything there currently is to offer. Until there is nothing left to challenge and you need to make up your own challenges or go find another game series. The Lunatic players do not need to play an Easy mode. They do not need to play a Normal, or a Hard mode. They want their own difficulty, they want a Lunatic mode. They want a Lunatic mode that gives them a challenge. They don't necessarily want one that trumps the previous record-holder of ass-rape, but they want something that will keep them interested and, you know, actually challenge them. 10D was not this. 10D has one of the easiest Lunatic modes in the series, akin to PCB and MoF (with bombs). I don't think anyone expected another UFO, but 10D is truly not very exciting for us. The mechanics don't even have a big hand in this; the raw danmaku is easy, as a Lunatic mode: wait no, as "the hardest difficulty in the game".  Bar overdrive, but that isn't a game. People often say that ZUN makes the games largely for himself, so you shouldn't question changes made. To an extent I find this true, but if this were invariably the case, by that reasoning he would have also made consecutive games harder because he got better. He would not make himself difficulties that challenge him further and further, then suddenly drop, unless he had a stroke or something.

If the Lunatics get something they're happy with, then you look at what your bottommost difficulty range is. From those two points, you balance the middle. Obviously, I don't mean disregard the opinions of the players who play at lower difficulty, but mainly you should look at the people who are left looking for something to challenge. It may seem a bit selfish to say that ensuring the difficulty of Lunatic is a priority, but that's really how it naturally turns out. When you balance everything properly, you have your lowermost range which should stay relatively steady throughout the series, you should have your uppermost range which tickles the fancy of the top players, and the in-between difficulties take care of themselves. The jumps in difficulty between each rank shouldn't vary much even if you increase the highest difficulty a lot: the jumps should clearly increase about a third as much as the highest increase, and that's even considering there's a max increase at all. If everything stayed the same difficulty as UFO there shouldn't be any change in climb. However, since not every player can look up to UFO Lunatic and still want something to do, the difficulty of Lunatic as the series progresses should dip a little before climbing and reaching a new peak. 10D was clearly too much, but if it dipped to say MoF Lunatic without the whole bomb abuse, then rose to SA and UFO again, that would be a good scenario for all parties. Even if it did eventually progress to a point where the jump between difficulties becomes too much for most people, they still have the other games to play, which people naturally become interested in, and as said before, they make a pretty even fabric of difficulties.

Now I'm pretty sure the claims we're making in this thread have been made perfectly clear. Ahem. I've had a bit too much wine. I think I'm done.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Lepetit89 on February 25, 2012, 10:39:28 AM
Way to go completely ignoring the arguments presented in the thread and just going "well they're just elitist". You're sounding really passive-aggressively snarky for someone who seemingly just glazed over the meaty posts. I'm going to post a wall anyways. EDIT: holy shit big wall sorry, this isn't targeted solely at you anymore lol

Okay, first of all, sorry for instigating you to write a rather long post (nice read nonetheless!), but I'm glad that it wasn't solely directed at me towards the end.
On the matter of "glaz[ing] over the meaty posts", though, sorry, but did you read my other posts? I'm on your side! You can't go unleashing the Bismarck on me!
I admit, maybe it was rather subtle sarcasm that could have gone both ways, but still, didn't think that this would happen. I have to admit, I'm pleasantly surprised. Anyway, sorry for making you outline your arguments like that to someone who never disagreed with you in the first place.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 25, 2012, 02:59:21 PM
^What he said.
The stage difficulties are all crazy because of all those spells.
Normal players face Earthlight Ray, while Lunatic players go FUCK IT'S KEINE and then cheese off Shoot the Moon. Asteroid Belt is harder on Hard than most Lunatic cards, TBH. Kaguya's Normal Dragon Necklace is largely RNG-based (as are most of her spells, to an extent, especially Buddhist Die-mond) and very hard to capture when compared to lots of Lunatic spells, outperforming all of Wriggle and Mystia's with ease, and then Salamander Shield is just really easy. Keine's EX spells are grossly mismatched to Mokou's in difficulty (even though I suck at Mokou ;A;). Tewi's nonspells are harder than Reisen for most everyone (I say this because I myself am better at Kaguya than Reisen D:). ZUN himself has admitted to being drunk at times while working on IN, but it still bugs me...

etc. etc.

Ooh OK, I think I get you now. I guess the reason why I don't see it is I play IN in Normal, and only Normal. So for me, my first time with IN was:

Stage 1: Yawn.
Stage 2: Pfft.
Stage 3: Whoah, hang on, OK ...
Stage 4: Heh, that was fun.
Stage 5: Oh cmon, Reisen, this is noth- WAIT WHAT WHERE ARE THE BULLETS?
Stage 6: Pretty pretty pretty! Wooo look at me it's a raaainbow!
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 25, 2012, 05:08:28 PM
If you really want to just have a "hard" game, play the games on Hard difficulty. That's why it's THERE. It hurts and pains me to see people that feel genuinely entitled to demand that Lunatic difficulty should be lowered to a "doable" state of difficulty when they completely ignore the fact Hard difficulty exists. What is the big deal about Lunatic now? Just the name?
I read your entire post of self-indulgent garbage.  You call the players who want it easier (note: I never said I want it to be easier, I said I don't want the to have a massive difficulty spike) selfish and in the same post insist you should have it your way.  Pretty selfish if you ask me.
Specifically the bit about 'play on hard mode': I did.  They don't challenge me, except UFO, which isn't enjoyable because of the UFO mechanic.  But yeah, I can effortlessly clear any of the hard modes bar UFO (Windows only, PC-98 is kind of meh to me), but the lunatics past MoF have a large difficulty jump.  You say to go practice on the 'right stuff', but at my skill level, that doesn't exist.  I either have to go play trivial stuff or stuff I can't do.

Ok, so I basically just explained why hard mode doesn't exactly work, lets add some numbers to this shall we?
EoSD NF H: 1/0 finish
PCB NF H: effortless clear
IN H: 3 deaths total, 2 to Kaguya, 1 to Marisa
PoFV H: *yawn* easy clear
MoF H: no focus in 1 try, no vertical in 1 try
SA H: 4 lives to spare, could have been 6 but I tried to capture the last spells
UFO H: 2 lives left at my clear.
GFW H: ~300 motivation left IIRC
TD H: can do easily except the game isn't that fun

and now for why not lunatic?
EoSD: clear 0/0 ages ago, since then have captured every pattern in Stages 5 and 6 lunatic
PCB: I beat ultra lunatic first try.  Regular lunatic is pretty easy.
IN: All teams cleared with in quick succession, Magic team expending more resources to one of Reimu's nonspells than to the entirety of Kaguya.
PoFV: Won with Aya, then with Marisa a while later.  It's not hard to not die (except Shikieiki who is BS)
MoF: I can clear this whenever.
SA: Can't pass Stage 2 satisfactorily,
UFO: no just no
GFW: can't get a solid Stage 1
TD: Haven't reached Seiga in a 1cc.

Specifically, looking at the pre-MoF to post-SA games, there's a difficulty spike in the lunatics with nothing in between for me to practice on to improve to be able to surpass the other lunatics.  My reason is not just 'because it's lunatic', I never said I'm not willing to invest time, I never said that I didn't expect the lunatics to get harder/change in difficulty, I never said each game shouldn't get its own mechanic, etc. etc.


Yeah, you have your opinion, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to disagree with it. Which most of us do. Pretty flagrantly, I might add.
I have my opinion, you have yours, everyone else has theirs.  But if you're going to 'wall of text' refute my points, at least do it without putting words in my mouth.

You claim to have beaten all the Lunatics up to MoF
What do I stand to gain from lying?  Either way, here's some stuff I did.
EoSD lunatic (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=16000)
PoFV lunatic, nonbroken character (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=18156)
MoF lunatic (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=16472)
UFO hard (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=16583)
lunatic Kanako fight,4 bombs, VoWG capture. (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=17920)
PCB perfect extra (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=18547)
MoF perfect extra (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=17624)
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: MTSranger on February 25, 2012, 06:36:40 PM
SA: Can't pass Stage 2 satisfactorily,
UFO: no just no
TD: Haven't reached Seiga in a 1cc.
Seriously I think you are ready for TD at least - it's not harder than MoF lunatic, just more careful resource managing.
For SA, if you can pass stage 5 by spamming continues, then you can 1cc for sure (after some period of practice, of course).

I agree that MoF -> SA/UFO is such a huge jump, that it seems insurmountable, but I'm sure one day you will reach it.
I mean, ZUN already gave us TD - and even if I'm mistaken about its difficulty (due to 1cc'ing it much later than most other lunatics), it is still easier than SA or UFO, so... there you go, difficulty bridge I guess.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 25, 2012, 07:24:26 PM
I read your entire post of self-indulgent garbage.

How about you dial this back a bit? This is completely unnecessary, and at this point you're only repeating yourself - hard mode is fine, lunatic is WAY too hard for you, so even though a bunch of other people can manage, you wish Lunatic were more personally suited to your particular skill set so you don't need to push yourself further.

If you reach the point where you have nothing new to come back with but added vitriol, it may be time to bow out gracefully and with dignity intact.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 25, 2012, 08:07:36 PM
I will agree that saying that was unnecessary, but I was reacting to what came across to me as both hypocritical and a personal attack.

I meant to stop responding to this thread a while ago after my second post, but then (in my eyes) I got attacked, so i defended myself.  and hey look, now I'm doing that again.

, you wish Lunatic were more personally suited to your particular skill set so you don't need to push yourself further.
Nowhere did I say this.  If the next games' hard mode had the right difficulty so I could bridge the gap, I'd be fine with that, even if lunatic was above UFO difficulty.
If you reach the point where you have nothing new to come back with but added vitriol
My previous post had something to add.  I also restated things because people seemed to be missing what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: XephyrEnigma on February 25, 2012, 09:27:09 PM
I meant to stop responding to this thread a while ago after my second post, but then (in my eyes) I got attacked, so i defended myself.  and hey look, now I'm doing that again.


Except you weren't being attacked then, and you aren't now. Seriously, if you don't have anything else to say, then don't. Anger doesn't lend itself to discussion.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 25, 2012, 11:14:00 PM
In any case, even if you figured Trance's post was a personal attack, and hypocritical, it wasn't tactful at all to call it self-indulgent garbage, especially since you're the one in the minority group in this discussion. The reason this got so heated is because your "opinions" are viewed as attacks against the Lunatic players and you aren't bringing up a very good defense for yourself while still sticking by it. I'm sure most people posting here think your opinion is what's self-indulgent, myself included. Which would make you a hypocrite calling someone out for hypocrisy. Don't play the victim and claim you were going to stop after you poked the beehive. You attacked, we defended, you defended in return.

Nowhere did I say this.  If the next games' hard mode had the right difficulty so I could bridge the gap, I'd be fine with that, even if lunatic was above UFO difficulty.
In other words you still haven't understood what we're been saying, and would be ok with moving Hard mode up and thereby screwing up the lower difficulties as long you get what you want. Unless this was extremely badly worded, you're re-introducing the exact same problem but with a different group. The difference between what we're talking about and what you're talking about, is that we want balance for all players, but want Lunatic players to keep being challenged instead of ZUN catering to the lower tier players who already have plenty of challenges. You just keep reiterating that you want catering to what you want, because you're currently "unable to get any better".

My previous post had something to add.  I also restated things because people seemed to be missing what I was trying to say.
Your previous post had nothing to add besides arbitrary stats. I'm pretty sure people get what your "main" point is: you don't want there to be such a large difficulty gap between Hard and Lunatic that you have to spend a lot of time on it before clearing. You're masking it as "I want the difficulty gaps to be natural for everyone!", which isn't the problem. Mostly everyone agrees with that sentiment, you're just working on all the wrong reasons and are pissing people off because of it.

I never said I want it to be easier, I said I don't want the to have a massive difficulty spike
You never said you wanted it to be easier, but your overall attitude and everyone else's experience are against you. You plainly want some game to be easier (or have a lower difficulty harder) so you can "bridge the gap", you just aren't explicitly saying it.

You call the players who want it easier selfish and in the same post insist you should have it your way.  Pretty selfish if you ask me.
Except you completely ignored all the reasons explained throughout the thread, why wanting the games to be easier is selfish, and why we actually have balanced reasoning for why the series shouldn't be getting easier. You aren't putting up a defense at all and are just responding to tonality, so you have absolutely no place to say that Trance is being selfish in that. Please, if you actually have something more to say, then do it. Otherwise you're still just poking the beehive.

We don't care about your completely arbitrary game statistics either, dude. They don't contribute towards your argument at all. Your excuse is basically "I can't do it", which is ultimately poppycock. When you're at the Lunatic level you don't go "this is too hard I can't do it ever". It only makes everyone else wonder how you got to this stage in the first place.

MoF: I can clear this whenever.
TD: Haven't reached Seiga in a 1cc.
SA: Can't pass Stage 2 satisfactorily,
UFO: no just no


Here. You have a very clearly defined path for you to improve with. You have four games to get better at, and the only thing actually stopping you is you saying "the difficulty gap is too much so Lunatic should be easier / Hard should be harder to cater to me". Why don't you TRY HARD?
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Vibri on February 25, 2012, 11:56:10 PM
Wow people really exploded because a guy said "the gap between Hard and Lunatic is too big in the newer games" let's just relax OK

Noname guy you're probably good enough to 1cc the games you haven't gotten to yet, you just gotta put in the effort. If you can do Hard, the majority of the stages and boss attacks aren't going to be fundamentally different on Lunatic, just denser/faster. Play some more, plan out how to use your resources, etc. You shouldn't have to put in a million hours.

I don't have any issues with the difficulty progression in most games, but when SA came out I thought the Normal was on par with Hard in the other games, while Easy was as trivial as always. That sure sucked.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 25, 2012, 11:59:52 PM
Yeah, SA's Normal is definitely on par with Hard in a lot of other games. Fortunately Reimu B and even Reimu C (if you can master that shot type) provide some great assists.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 26, 2012, 12:05:17 AM
Why don't you TRY HARD?
try harder or hard mode?

I was going to say something about how my opinion wasn't wanted except then
Wow people really exploded because a guy said "the gap between Hard and Lunatic is too big in the newer games" let's just relax OK
which is true.  Both sides (myself included) blew this way out of proportion.-
Noname guy you're probably good enough to 1cc the games you haven't gotten to yet, you just gotta put in the effort. If you can do Hard, the majority of the stages and boss attacks aren't going to be fundamentally different on Lunatic, just denser/faster. Play some more, plan out how to use your resources, etc. You shouldn't have to put in a million hours.
I know this stuff, but the changes are enough so that most of my strategies are invalid.
I don't have any issues with the difficulty progression in most games, but when SA came out I thought the Normal was on par with Hard in the other games, while Easy was as trivial as always. That sure sucked.
Honestly I agreed with this then and the reason I overcame this gap was IN hard mode-it felt in-between to me.

Nowhere did I say this.  If the next games' hard mode had the right difficulty so I could bridge the gap, I'd be fine with that, even if lunatic was above UFO difficulty.
In other words you still haven't understood what we're been saying, and would be ok with moving Hard mode up and thereby screwing up the lower difficulties as long you get what you want. Unless this was extremely badly worded, you're re-introducing the exact same problem but with a different group.
It was badly worded, I meant to imply that the game went back up to SA/UFO difficulty throughout the entire game.
In any case, even if you figured Trance's post was a personal attack, and hypocritical, it wasn't tactful at all to call it self-indulgent garbage, especially since you're the one in the minority group in this discussion. The reason this got so heated is because your "opinions" are viewed as attacks against the Lunatic players and you aren't bringing up a very good defense for yourself while still sticking by it
I will agree that saying that was unnecessary
This whole thing started (at least IMO, not that that seems to count for much here) as a misunderstanding of me disagreeing with Zil.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Vibri on February 26, 2012, 12:12:01 AM
Make new strategies! Lunatic is harder than Hard, so obviously you can't do the same stuff and have it work out the same. If you're skilled enough to clear EoSD/PCB/IN then you should be able to get the rest with some work.
I would agree with you more if UFO was the only Touhou game that existed, but there is something to bridge the gap between the new Hards and the new Lunatics, and it's the old Lunatics. Across all the games I think there's a pretty reasonable progression of difficulty.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: chirpy13 on February 26, 2012, 12:20:19 AM
I find it kind of ironic that you criticize the difficulty jumps in UFO, when it's actually pretty even across the board.  Easy is easy, Normal is hard, Hard is nuts, Lunatic is ultranuts.  Yes, the jumps are big, but they're even nonetheless - the game is just hard as fuck towards the Lunatic side.   In any case, big jumps shouldn't matter for Lunatics so much.  You've got other Lunatics if you aren't good enough for the big ones, and there's also the whole idea that you don't really practice on Hard to get good at Lunatic.  You either practice Lunatic, or preferably something well beyond that (90FPS or playing harder games and moving back to your whatever your goal is to learn the game-specific stuff when you're ready for it).  It's the same idea as Normal mode players practicing on Hard/Lunatic to accelerate the learning curve for their Normal clears.  It's also always nice to broaden your horizons beyond just Touhou.  You might find something else you really enjoy along the way :V.

try harder or hard mode?
Try harder.  It's a reference to DonPachi's game over screen (http://i.imgur.com/0qBqW.jpg).
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on February 26, 2012, 12:49:49 AM
Here's the easiest to hardest difficulties for me, excluding Easy Mode because I was so much of a perfectionist (And Overdrive made me too paranoid).

Normal mode
TD > IN > MoF > PCB > EoSD > SA > UFO

Hard mode
IN > TD > EoSD > PCB > MoF > SA > UFO

Lunatic mode
IN > EoSD > PCB > MoF > TD > SA > UFO

See a pattern here?

I'll copy and paste it and bold what I'm trying to get across

Normal mode
TD > IN > MoF > PCB > EoSD > SA > UFO

Hard mode
IN > TD > EoSD > PCB > MoF > SA > UFO

Lunatic mode
IN > EoSD > PCB > MoF > TD > SA > UFO
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 26, 2012, 12:54:25 AM
Here's the easiest to hardest difficulties for me, excluding Easy Mode because I was so much of a perfectionist (And Overdrive made me too paranoid).

I will forever hate that song for legitmizing the elitism and snobbery of ridiculing Easy Mode players.

Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: XephyrEnigma on February 26, 2012, 01:06:47 AM
I will forever hate that song for legitmizing the elitism and snobbery of ridiculing Easy Mode players.
Seconding this. Theres no shame in playing Easy. And if thats all you can do at the moment, practice until you get better.

@Ammy, the post below: Thats a given. But if youre enjoying the game, then chances are youre playing it often, and that means youre eventually going to get better and start challenging yourself more.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 26, 2012, 01:17:39 AM
Or hell, play Easy Mode because you like it. Sometimes I don't want to approach a game as an athletic competition with myself; sometimes I just want to fly around and shoot stuff.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on February 26, 2012, 01:23:27 AM
I will forever hate that song for legitmizing the elitism and snobbery of ridiculing Easy Mode players.

THIS.

Or hell, play Easy Mode because you like it. Sometimes I don't want to approach a game as an athletic competition with myself; sometimes I just want to fly around and shoot stuff.

Okay that is where I draw the line, depending on the game.

With IN, I play NORMAL if I want to fly around and shoot stuff.

With SA, I play Easy if I want to fly around and shoot stuff.

With UFO, I play Ultra 30FPS Easy if I want to fly around and shoot stuff.
I can't stand UFO. Fuck you ZUN.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: DX7.EP on February 26, 2012, 01:24:33 AM
I will forever hate that song for legitmizing the elitism and snobbery of ridiculing Easy Mode players.
Agreed. It's one thing to put in limitations in-game for Easy Mode (EoSD S5, for instance) but this....

Anyways, major arguments and textwalls aside, well...I've found the overall differences between the difficulty levels fairly decent and appropriate within their respective games. Across the games, well, that is another matter.

It's also always nice to broaden your horizons beyond just Touhou.  You might find something else you really enjoy along the way :V.
This, definitely, going by personal experience. After taking a break from Touhou and filling in the STG craving with mostly Cave's STGs and a bit of Gundemonium, upon getting back to the Touhou series my playing skills noticeably improved. Not yet on the level to 1cc most Normals but it's gotten more attainable.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on February 26, 2012, 01:32:24 AM
Here's what I meant when I said I agreed with Tengukami's hatred of Overdrive.

I've 1cc'd one game on Easy, which was UFO.
And actually could say with a straight face that I legitimately enjoyed UFO

I then moved straight up to Normal because I thought Easy Mode was for babies due to seeing Overdrive.

I spent FOUR MONTHS TRYING TO BEAT SOMETHING ON NORMAL

FOUR MONTHS

FOUR MONTHS

FOUR MONTHSSSSSSS

FOOOOOOUR MOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNTTTTHHHHHHSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Why I drew that out: Four months is the time that borders Easy and Hard, maybe LUNATIC for some people.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Vibri on February 26, 2012, 02:11:15 AM
There are plenty of people who take that long (or much longer) to accomplish the same thing. You shouldn't worry about other people so much.

Easy mode is pretty cool. I had fun doing a little scoring on IN Easy because I didn't have to concentrate really hard on dodging stuff. Just had to have good timing and positioning. It was legitimately enjoyable and I got some runs I actually take pride in. Anyone who says Easy mode is for babies is free to try and beat them :>
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: MTSranger on February 26, 2012, 02:12:02 AM
I think we should all calm down a bit.
Seriously, why are people pretending that the glaring jump in difficulty is something really trivial?
Just because you are all way beyond UFO lunatic doesn't mean some of us newer players are.
There is no need to patronize us for complaining about THIS huge difficulty jump and pretend it doesn't exist or smthing:
MoF -> SA
SA -> UFO

I find it kind of ironic that you criticize the difficulty jumps in UFO, when it's actually pretty even across the board.  Easy is easy, Normal is hard, Hard is nuts, Lunatic is ultranuts.  Yes, the jumps are big, but they're even nonetheless - the game is just hard as fuck towards the Lunatic side.   
We are criticizing MoF -> SA -> UFO lunatic with practically nothing in between for a new lunatic player to progress through.

In any case, big jumps shouldn't matter for Lunatics so much.  You've got other Lunatics if you aren't good enough for the big ones, and there's also the whole idea that you don't really practice on Hard to get good at Lunatic.
but there is something to bridge the gap between the new Hards and the new Lunatics, and it's the old Lunatics. Across all the games I think there's a pretty reasonable progression of difficulty.
I don't get how people are still saying this!
The big leap is: MoF -> SA, and SA -> UFO. Imo none of your "other lunatics" come between them!
And I would rather say, those jumps are akin to the jump in a level of difficulty (e.g. normal -> hard).
It's like this:
Lunatic: EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF
Lunatic+: SA
Lunatic++: UFO
Telling us that we should simply "practice hard" and be able to clear UFO lunatic no problem is like telling a normal mode player to 1cc lunatic mode. Yes it can happen. No it is not as "reasonable" as you think. It takes many many months of hard work, and we would like to be able to clear something a bit less difficult and frustrating while we are slowly moving towards that goal.

When I went from normal to lunatic, I had an abundance of games in between to play with - everything from hard mode to extra stages.
When I went from lunatic to lunatic+, there was practically nothing - and I had to resort to taking a long break doing random things such as timing out VoWG and stuff. You can argue that I'm just bad or that I can go play other STGs, but that's beside the point.

The difference between what we're talking about and what you're talking about, is that we want balance for all players,
but want Lunatic players to keep being challenged instead of ZUN catering to the lower tier players who already have plenty of challenges.
How can you have "balance for all players" if the lunatic difficulty keeps drifting away to infinity and beyond?
And especially if the drift is particularly fast?
If the drift is a bit slower, then you can argue that lower tier players have "plenty of challenges" from the previous games
But, as it stands now, there is a scarcity of stuff to do between most lunatics and SA/UFO.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 26, 2012, 02:18:55 AM
How can you have "balance for all players" if the lunatic difficulty keeps drifting away to infinity and beyond?
And especially if the drift is particularly fast?
If the drift is a bit slower, then you can argue that lower tier players have "plenty of challenges" from the previous games
But, as it stands now, there is a scarcity of stuff to do between most lunatics and SA/UFO.
This is basically what I was trying to say this whole time, I just wasn't finding the right words.
Thank you for both agreeing with me (nice to know someone does at least) and phrasing what I was trying to say in a much better way than I did.
Lunatic: EoSD, PCB, IN, MoF
Lunatic+: SA
Lunatic++: UFO
Although I am curious where you place TD, for me it's under lunatic+ (while all the higher tier players seem to say it's the easiest lunatic because they just came off of UFO lunatic)
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Vibri on February 26, 2012, 02:28:37 AM
I'll agree that UFO is kind of out there, but I don't think SA is as bad as you make it out to be. It's hard, yes, but it's not unreasonable to go from the other games (and its own Hard mode) to Lunatic. I cleared MoF, EoSD, and TD for the first time this year and I believe the only thing keeping me from nabbing SA is the fact that I don't feel like playing it ever. I've hit stage 6 a couple times, though, so the removal of one or two deaths should guarantee a 1cc if I actually practice a little.
Your experience may vary, though! I'm not going to deny that you feel SA and UFO are way harder than every other Lunatic, but I think most other people don't feel that way. Thus the disagreement.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on February 26, 2012, 02:29:53 AM
I was just playing MoF easy


People should play easy modes when they don't feel like dodging things because just shooting things and getting high points gratis ( minus SA ) is always a good time

SA is the most fun Lunatic :<
UFO is probably the worst because I thoroughly cannot enjoy the UFO mechanics while dodging.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on February 26, 2012, 02:49:03 AM
Signs of hating UFO:


If you have any of these problems, you hate UFO.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 26, 2012, 02:53:25 AM
I think we should all calm down a bit.
Seriously, why are people pretending that the glaring jump in difficulty is something really trivial?
Just because you are all way beyond UFO lunatic doesn't mean some of us newer players are.
There is no need to patronize us for complaining about THIS huge difficulty jump and pretend it doesn't exist or smthing

Folks have long since calmed down, and no one is pretending the difficulty leap doesn't exist. The point being made is that rather than want Lunatic to bend towards the player, the player should just ... try harder maybe? The number of replays of UFO Lunatic 1cc's out there attests to the fact that the difficult leap, while significant, is not moving "towards infinity and beyond". So let's drop the hyperbole.

The way I see it, we all have our own skillset. This skillset is, believe it or not, flexible. It's something you can develop, like a muscle. Some people are born with large muscles. Some people will build their muscles faster than others. But everyone has the potential through training to develop muscles strong enough.

Furthermore, barring something majorly buggy, the onus is not upon the independent one-man game-maker to change his game in any way. But ZUN did anyway - the whole point of Ten Desires was to tone down the difficulty a bit. So not only do I not see this trend towards Lunatic accelerating towards the impossible, the game creator has demonstrably taken steps to prevent this.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 26, 2012, 03:07:04 AM
EDIT: Thank you Ammy.
Guys, Ammy plays on Easy and Normal, last time I checked. Just by the way.

Seriously, why are people pretending that the glaring jump in difficulty is something really trivial?
Just because you are all way beyond UFO lunatic doesn't mean some of us newer players are.
I for one, am not. I still haven't beaten UFO Lunatic. I understand that I should have by now, but that's due to my playing, not the game's difficulty jumping stupidly. And you know what? I probably still would have argued this position two years ago. My current standing has nothing to do with the points I'm making. For people to have surpassed UFO Lunatic to begin with, they were previously at the same point as you guys. It isn't as if we're completely past you guys and just don't understand your position. We weren't born naturally good at the games or anything.

Second, It isn't a trivial jump in difficulty. If you go straight from UFO Hard to Lunatic you're probably going to get your ass handed to you for a while. But that's how it works. If you go from UFO Normal to Hard, you're probably also going to get your ass handed to you. Similarly with other games. Averaged out, the increases between difficulty levels inside each game, are fairly even. However, to provide a bigger challenge as the series goes on, the highest difficulty gets harder, and it ends up that the difficulty gap between games becomes non-linear, as mentioned previously.

Not sure why you're including MoF though. MoF is one of the easier Lunatics when you consider how many bombs you're given. Of course the jump to SA is large. I'd say IN is worse than MoF for sure, and probably EoSD as well.

Quote
I don't get how people are still saying this!
Maybe because we've went through this and know what we're talking about. We could say the same with you guys, you know?
Quote
Telling us that we should simply "practice hard" and be able to clear UFO lunatic no problem
I don't understand how you're getting that from what we're saying. Nobody's saying it's easy, nor are we saying raw hours practiced inevitably turns into a clear; that's stupid.
Quote
is like telling a normal mode player to 1cc lunatic mode
No, it isn't. Don't be absurd.
Quote
It takes many many months of hard work, and we would like to be able to clear something a bit less difficult and frustrating while we are slowly moving towards that goal. How can you have "balance for all players" if the lunatic difficulty keeps drifting away to infinity and beyond? If the drift is a bit slower, then you can argue that lower tier players have "plenty of challenges" from the previous games.
Yes okay awesome! I agree! But that wasn't the issue being argued! If your entire point is that you want things to do before SA and UFO, then congratulations, we all agree on that! I'm pretty sure I explicitly said this twice already. As I mentioned, Lunatic should not be drifting away into infinity, and seeing as 10D was herp derp, it demonstrably isn't. Not many people are actually wishing for something as ball-bustingly hard as UFO, immediately. Maybe in the future, but to have a proper balance it's going to have to start, as said, around MoF sans bombspam, and climb from there. This is the only way to ensure a proper spread in the Lunatic difficulties while still keeping the lower difficulties in check. It isn't the "drift" that's fast, but rather naturally the Easy and Normal difficulties are going to bunch together in difficulty more than Hard and Lunatic, simply because having an linear increase in difficulty along difficulty levels, means a non-linear increase along the games, which is why it seems that SA and UFO have huge gaps between other games. I can make a graph for you if you want.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on February 26, 2012, 03:09:57 AM
Essentially implying that it would be ridiculous for a Normal player to 1cc Lunatic-level difficulty.

Okay, that isn't too ridiculous. I know people who can play IN Lunatic like any piano player can play Chopsticks but have 1cc'd about half of the other games on Normal.

Back on bitching about Touhou difficulty, FUCK YOU UFO.

There, that's about every post in the rage thread summed up here.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on February 26, 2012, 03:13:45 AM
^^^

I do find it ridiculous

I've 1CCed every Windows Touhou on Normal, but can barely scrape through Stage 4 on Lunatic on all of them
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 26, 2012, 03:17:15 AM
Okay, that isn't too ridiculous. I know people who can play IN Lunatic like any piano player can play Chopsticks but have 1cc'd about half of the other games on Normal.
When talking about the overall demographic of the people who play the game it is. Of course there are going to be a few silly little anecdotes that go against the norm.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 26, 2012, 03:22:27 AM
EDIT: Thank you Ammy.
Guys, Ammy plays on Easy and Normal, last time I checked. Just by the way.

Yes, that's right. Every now and then, when I'm feeling suicidal, I'll fire up a game on Lunatic just to be like "oh, what the hell?" and laugh my ass off as I get steamrolled before the Stage 1 midboss. But that's still nothing compared to the first time I 1cc'd MoF on Easy, using Reimu A. I was so happy to finally beat VoWG, to hear that final explosion and see the screen turn white ... only to be told "try playing on Normal next time, bad end lol".

But hey, no hard feelings, ZUN.

Funny enough, for someone like me who doesn't play above Normal, I still go wild on StB and DS. Maybe because it's nothing but spell cards, that you try over and over until you clear them. The camera games have no difficulty settings, perhaps for good reason, but I think the structure of the camera games lends itself to the meth-like addiction of these games.

"OK, I'm going to take 10 more tries on this spellcard, and if I don't clear it by then, I'm going to bed."

~Three hours later...~

"AAAAAAAAHHHH KEINE I hate you you stupid cow! OK, just ten more tries ...!"

Lather, rinse, repeat. Still can't get enough of those camera games.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Byaaakuren on February 26, 2012, 03:45:21 AM
I don't see why people are talking about Easy mode players as if they're the plague. I occasionally play Easy mode when I feel like breaking my current score (I'd like to break my 2.3 billion in IN Easy with Youmu). I used to play Normal to clear it but now I play it for the same reason I play Easy. I think Easy should remain as it is, a way for newer players to get the hang of the games without discouraging them too much for not getting far.

"OK, I'm going to take 10 more tries on this spellcard, and if I don't clear it by then, I'm going to bed."

~Three hours later...~

"AAAAAAAAHHHH KEINE I hate you you stupid cow! OK, just ten more tries ...!"

Lather, rinse, repeat. Still can't get enough of those camera games.

Story of my life xD
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: chirpy13 on February 26, 2012, 03:52:29 AM
I don't get how people are still saying this!
...
Telling us that we should simply "practice hard" and be able to clear UFO lunatic no problem is like telling a normal mode player to 1cc lunatic mode.
I don't have the slightest clue how you got that from my post.  I'm saying you DON'T play hard and then think you're ready for lunatic, you play lunatic (or beyond) until you're ready to clear lunatic.  If you're playing lunatics as serious runs in the first place, then you should know quite well by that point the amount of effort you'll need to put in to get the clear, because you've already put in that effort with your previous accomplishments.  You're also quite ready to learn how to deal with the increased bullet density and whatnot.  I understand that a lot of people get tired of being beat down time after time - I've gone through that phase a few times and took relatively long breaks from the series because of it (throwing in a credit here and there to maintain what I'd built up).  That's shmups though.  If you can clear ANY lunatic, or the more difficult hard modes, then you're more than ready to clear any lunatic you want.  It's now just up to how motivated you are to achieve it.  As far as the between-games difficulty jumps go, they're not as big as you think.  SA is hardly more difficult than any other Lunatic (Orin's tough, but the rest isn't so bad), and while UFO does stand out a bit from the rest, I'd still say the vast majority of the difficulty jump is from inexperience with the game, the irritating UFO system, and losing a power level on death.  The bullets themselves are nothing special for the most part, and once you learn how to deal with those then nothing else matters because you're no longer dying and losing that power, which also means you aren't in such a great need for red UFOs that you end up dying to collect them.  None of this is coming from a superplayer or anything either.  I'm still getting my ass handed to me by Murasa on a good run, but it's nothing that pumping credits can't fix.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Lepetit89 on February 26, 2012, 07:46:01 AM
On the matter of SA and UFO Lunatic being too hard when compared to the other games, what exactly are your problems with the games?
I cleared IN first, PCB after that, then EoSD, PoFV, MoF, then I got started on SA. Sure, it was hard, but ever after clearing EoSD almost all of my 1CCs boiled down to the mere question "How do I manage my ressources?". Both SA and UFO are filled to the brim with spots (tough ones, mind you) which you can just bypass with Bombs at little to no expense (Power gain is greater than the loss or equal, for instance); the only difficulty is finding out how to move, how much Power (or Bombs) to use up and which parts you should definitely make it through safely. Trying to figure that out, I'd just practice the stages again and again and again. There are so many ways of doing that that even weaker players should be able to get up to a certain point safely.

The way I see it, SA's and UFO's particular systems (overabundance of Bombs or other ways to clear the screen of bullets) were implemented exactly because the games featured rather tough patterns, to give weaker players a shot at beating them. The only problem is how to use those systems properly. If you cannot handle the patterns, use strategy - that's how I got to this point despite being, admittedly, not a particularly strong player. I use strategy to my advantage, and that's also what's fun about the games for me. Seeing new stages, new problems, then developing strategies on my own, practicing the last 30 seconds of UFO Stage 3 for the 250th time if necessary, just to figure out that I cannot safely squeeze out another Bomb there - no problem, I just adjust my overall strategy accordingly.

Admittedly, UFO strategy is tough, mainly because it involves lots and lots of factors. For most stages, I had to time the destruction of the UFOs down to seconds based on the BGM or other factors and even then there is only so much you can do in a single run without messing up, despite practicing each stage hundreds of times. And after that, I still only cleared 0/0, but given the level of skill I have, it was by far the most satisfying feeling of accomplishment I had felt - strategy overcame the odds. Mind you, it was a bad run, it always depends strictly on how many mistakes I would make. Theoretically, however, you can get through all of the Stages up until (and including) Stage 4 without losing a single life, building up your Bomb stock, picking up red UFOs occasionally to get to the Extra Life cap.

That's why I don't really see why SA and UFO are so different from the other games - they just require more strategy, more precision when bombing if you're weaker. That's exactly what weaker players have - not brawns (well, reflexes), but brains! Well, hopefully. Can't say I'm particularly big in the brains department either. Nonetheless, taking UFO Lunatic for instance, on my best run I got to to LFS with 2 full Extra Lives. On my worst with 0/0. That's the power of strategy! Of course, the 0/0 run was my actual clear, but that's the lack of skill I guess. LFS at the end was rather cruel because it put an end to everything I used to get to that point - bombs are useless (hell, they don't even clear the bullets properly!), Byakuren is nigh invincible most of the time and the pattern is hard. You can figure that pattern out or you can just call it quits. If I had to name one complaint about UFO, it would be that, though I don't regret anything. It just added to the satisfaction afterwards.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Pesco on February 26, 2012, 08:25:37 AM
I play on Easy. With hax. And I'm proud of it. :D

Furthering on this that I said. I can actually clear the games on Easy without hax consistently. But that's as far as I see myself going. I don't plan on trying the higher difficulties when I can just watch replays and enjoy the stages with the player.

The games have friendly suggestions of who each difficulty in each game would suit. No harm in following instructions.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: ExPorygon on February 26, 2012, 09:35:18 AM
The more I read this thread, the more I wonder if a fifth difficulty would be useful to more effectively bridge the gaps between the existing difficulty modes; if not now than perhaps in future games where lunatic may reach new heights in difficulty. The ultra patches already attempt to do this, with often practically impossible results.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 26, 2012, 09:55:43 AM
Actually, the Ultra patches were only impossibly ridiculous in their first iteration. I think all of them are currently well within acceptability; even UFO.

I don't think adding another difficulty fixes the problem. Not only is it a lot of extra work, but the exact same problem would soon arise anyways. If you try to add a difficulty to fix the gap between games such that Lunatic doesn't jump from game to game, then you have one game with three difficulties that are barely spaced apart from each other, which seems like work for nothing. The small increases in difficulty in that case almost makes it seem as though the player doesn't have to work to climb the ladder, and likely introduces more balancing problems I don't feel like thinking about. On the other hand, if you try to just level Lunatic down a bit and have an even greater difficulty, not only is that an incredible amount of work for a small portion of the playerbase, but it would soon lead to the same predicament since it isn't solving the underlying problem, even if it sort of fixes it temporarily.

I (once again) really think one of the best methods would be a one-two-three slow climb, which is a possible strategy acquired as a long-running series. An easier (but still challenging) difficulty, then a slightly harder one, then a really hard one. Then you start over, with the new baseline being just a bit above the baseline before it. This strategy basically covers everything without leaving players out, while still slowly raising the bar, as I see it. The only thing is that it's incredibly difficult to balance that sort of thing on purpose, even with craptons of playtesting.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 26, 2012, 03:57:25 PM
Well here's my take on bridging the difficulty gaps. First of all I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of SA, especially accusing SA's Normal of being equivalent to Hard in other games. SA was my very first Normal 1cc, and when I tried out the other games I still had difficulty doing them on Normal as well. MoF and EoSD in particular really put me through the wringer, and it was a few months before I got any Hard 1cc, which also happened to be SA. :I

And so even if SA is harder than the others, it's nothing that some familiarity with the game doesn't cure. It's along the lines of what Petit was saying. SA and UFO really reward the player for having some idea of what the game is going to do. I think what happens with a lot of people is they start off with some earlier games and get a concept of themselves as "Normal players" or "Hard players." Then they play SA or UFO and think, "well I've done Hard in the other games so this shouldn't take too long." They get their asses kicked (which is completely inevitable your first time in UFO) and think the games are way harder than the others. Each game is it's own thing, and even when you can clear one in your sleep, you should expect to have to put a lot of effort into getting good at another. Skill only takes you so far, and strategy is very important in these games. My personal opinion, when all is said and done, is that EoSD is the hardest. Lots of plain old dodging, few gimmicks, and fewer resources than most. (Well, PoDD is hardest, but that's another thing entirely.)

And then when it comes to "bridging the gap" in difficulty, you really shouldn't be looking for some kind of stepping stone game to carry you to the next difficulty. Unless you're new to the games in general, if you want to 1cc UFO Lunatic, there's only one thing you should be doing, and that's playing UFO Lunatic. Playing a different game's Lunatic mode isn't going to prepare you for the patterns and stages in UFO, and if you want to get better at plain old dodging, you really don't need to gradually work up like that. If you expose yourself to difficult things, you get better. It may keep kicking your ass despite your improvement, but that's just because it's hard. You still get better by playing anything like that; it doesn't have to be slightly above your current skill level just so you can see yourself beating it quickly. (All of this within reason of course. Diving into Hell's Tokamak on Lunatic and dying repeatedly because you can't even get a grip on it isn't going to help you get better, but if you're doing Hard in other games, UFO shouldn't have many things that would rip you to pieces like that.)
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: MTSranger on February 26, 2012, 06:49:38 PM
And so even if SA is harder than the others, it's nothing that some familiarity with the game doesn't cure. It's along the lines of what Petit was saying. SA and UFO really reward the player for having some idea of what the game is going to do. I think what happens with a lot of people is they start off with some earlier games and get a concept of themselves as "Normal players" or "Hard players." Then they play SA or UFO and think, "well I've done Hard in the other games so this shouldn't take too long." They get their asses kicked (which is completely inevitable your first time in UFO) and think the games are way harder than the others. Each game is it's own thing, and even when you can clear one in your sleep, you should expect to have to put a lot of effort into getting good at another. Skill only takes you so far, and strategy is very important in these games. My personal opinion, when all is said and done, is that EoSD is the hardest. Lots of plain old dodging, few gimmicks, and fewer resources than most. (Well, PoDD is hardest, but that's another thing entirely.)
Maybe our experiences differ then.

I've been playing SA lunatic for a looong time - like almost ever since I started playing normal mode - for the training of course, and it wasn't until 3 months ago that I started making breakthroughs in that game that allowed me to 1cc. I mean, by the time I got my SA normal 1cc I had already mapped out an easy route for SA lunatic stages 1-4 to the best of my ability - and they didn't change very much when I got my SA lunatic 1cc almost 1.5 years later. The only thing that changed was improvements in dodging ability that reduced resource lost by like 15 bombs or so.

In contrast, after I 1cc'd EoSD lunatic (which I had been playing for like 1 year already), it didn't take very long before I proceed to 1cc IN, PCB, MoF (1-2 weeks for each game), and that was almost 10 months before I 1cc'd SA lunatic. For me, I don't think I'm overblowing the difficulty. There were just things that I couldn't seem do before no matter how many times I try.

Mind you, UFO still rips me to pieces, although much less than before (I can reach Murasa! - compared to game over at Kogasa, that's a huge improvement imo). It's not one or two things either. Pretty much the whole Ichirin and Murasa fight for example, not to mention dying randomly to Kogasa. And if I ever get pass Murasa, Shou and Byakuren will also mean bomb pretty much everything at my current level.

I need many more small breakthroughs (capture this spell, dodge part X of the stage reliably, etc) before I even have a chance. It's not that they aren't happening at all, but rather slowly. That's because they depend on raw dodging ability, not strategy, and dodging skills don't improve that fast for me.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Archin on February 26, 2012, 07:34:24 PM
Easy mode shouldn't be reduced in difficulty. Even for newer players, leave a challenge for those being introduced to the series. Lunatic should be getting harder and harder as series progresses for those of us who have put in the time and effort to accomplish them. There should be a challenge for everyone, new and lunatic players. If the games become so hard that you have to dedicate you life to it, so be it. For those of use who can't do it. Just see it as an impossible task that you can't do and jump in it just for fun. I rather stay as a Hard player and never become a Lunatic just so I can always have that feeling of something that I can never accomplish. The amount of adrenaline from trying the impossible and some how surviving the pattern is not only the reason why I got into the series but what keeps me wanting more. Even with the major gap in difficulty from hard to lunatic. You might not be 1ccing Lunatic in a month but putting time and effort will still show in the long run. With the mind set of always getting better instead of just winning, you will be 1ccing Lunatic sooner or later.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: trancehime on February 27, 2012, 12:28:05 AM
 :matsurismirk:

Woah, dude. I just read the stuff I missed and holy hell did I piss someone off. "Self-indulgent garbage" aside, I'm still a staunch believer that if you can't handle the hardest difficulty yet, start small and then go higher up that way. That is the fundamental behind "skill progression." If you can already clear something on Hard that you find "trivial" yet find Lunatic "too difficult," then I'm sorry but you're gonna have to continue chipping away at it. Finding it an experience similar to running into a brick wall and then getting frustrated? Take a break for a while to clear yourself out before trying again. Watch replays. Ask people for advice. There's a lot of ways to go about trying to attain a clear you think is "too difficult."

EDIT: Oh yeah, and PC-98 never had any of the conveniences of replays and spell practice, so I was more than offended to hear of the initial outcry posted here, seeing as I spent a metric tonne of time (2004~2009 was my PC-98 heyday) practicing Easy/Normal/Hard/Lunatic clears for the PC-98 games. So I apologize for that.

stuff

I agree with this guy. I see no issues with difficulty now and I foresee that there won't be such issues in the future. Yes UFO is balls-hard and to some TD might be a little disappointing, and maybe the difficulty scaling may need tweaking, but it's not anything that's been outright debilitating or offputting.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: ark on February 27, 2012, 12:46:07 AM
Holy hell you guys. Just be thankful that you *have* a selection of difficulty levels to begin with. Look at all those arcade games (by Cave or whomever), which didn't have difficulty selections, didn't have stage practice, and people actually had to put their own money in for every credit. And they liked it.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: trancehime on February 27, 2012, 12:49:03 AM
Holy hell you guys. Just be thankful that you *have* a selection of difficulty levels to begin with. Look at all those arcade games (by Cave or whomever), which didn't have difficulty selections, didn't have stage practice, and people actually had to put your own money in for every credit. And they liked it.

oh god I must have spent literally hundreds of bucks worth in credits on arcade shmups ahahahaha

it was totally worth it though!
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Vibri on February 27, 2012, 01:43:16 AM
Oh jeez grampa Nereid's here to tell us stories about the war again, everyone act interested it's the respectful thing to do
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Lepetit89 on February 27, 2012, 06:28:36 AM
From that long a time ago? In that case, the arcade was uphill both ways, I assume? 10km through the snow?
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Archin on February 27, 2012, 07:58:36 AM
Well here's my take on bridging the difficulty gaps. First of all I think people are exaggerating the difficulty of SA, especially accusing SA's Normal of being equivalent to Hard in other games. SA was my very first Normal 1cc, and when I tried out the other games I still had difficulty doing them on Normal as well. MoF and EoSD in particular really put me through the wringer, and it was a few months before I got any Hard 1cc, which also happened to be SA. :I

I missed this post some how, not really sure about that. I've played SA a lot more then I've played EOSD and currently I just reached SA's stage 6 a few days ago on normal. Stage 5 drugged me around for quite a while before I was able to get the hang of it. Now I practice it like the plague, today I managed to reach Remilia on hard for the first time. SA could be the equivalent to hard in some cases. More bullets, funky patterns or play styles of the characters could provide more of a challenge. I will say that picking up a replay for EOSD from a player scoring provides a lot more information then a replay for SA. You are still correct that knowing what the game is going to throw at you and having a strategy still takes you a long ways.

Holy hell you guys. Just be thankful that you *have* a selection of difficulty levels to begin with. Look at all those arcade games (by Cave or whomever), which didn't have difficulty selections, didn't have stage practice, and people actually had to put their own money in for every credit. And they liked it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but many arcade games provide a difficulty through some sort of ranking system. I know the Donpachi series ranks as you use hypers. It isn't the same as choosing normal or lunatic but you can decide if you want to make your game harder or not. We are fortunate that we don't have to spend our money and practicing is a lot easier with Stage/Spell practice and the ability to use save slots in some cases.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on February 27, 2012, 08:48:55 AM
Rank as a game mechanic doesn't work the same way as choosing a difficulty: generally doing well means the game will get harder, and doing poorly means the game eases to a sort of baseline. Rather, the game attempts to kill the player because he isn't dying enough. The Hyper mechanic in Dodonpachi Daioujou (in particular) also works a bit different than this and is for a different purpose. Donpachi uses the first rank mechanic, note. EoSD had a rank system too; would you call that system a player's decision? Would you call it something that varies enough to enable lesser players and challenge better ones? I see what you're getting at, but the purposes and applications between rank and choosing difficulties are ultimately different.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Raikaria on February 27, 2012, 08:57:33 AM
I'm a Normal [I've moved beyond Easy for the most part] mode player, but, to be honest, I would like to see the game difficulty more even.

TD Normal was easier than IN Easy... although Reimu's shottype in that is overpowered as all hell, unlike Scarlet in IN. On my very first run of TD I got to Stage 5. But TD was made for newcomers to the series, like me, unlike UFO and SA, which probobly pushed away newbies with their difficulty.

Meanwhile I can't even 1CC SA Easy [Furthest I've got is Subterranian Sun], or even get past Murasa on UFO Easy [Nor can I get past her on Normal, while I can get to her]

As for Lunatic? I agree Lunatic Mode should always be difficult [Unless you have pro skills and can clear it consistantly, but it was probobly difficult initially], but personally I think the jump in difficulty between modes is fine.

Easy -> Normal is a jump that greatly varies depending on game, but is generally rather modest.

Normal -> Hard is a bigger jump

Hard -> Lunatic is another bigger jump

Because by the time you've 1CC'ed the previous difficulty, and can do it consistantly, your ability should be enough that the 'larger' difficulty jumps are made up quicker, because you know the basics. I played TD Hard and Lunatic for the purposes of unlocking Yuyuko's Overdrive for the lulz, and I can certainly say the jump from Hard to Lunatic was bigger than Normal to Hard, I could no-death Hard, but had to continue on Lunatic.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 27, 2012, 09:06:34 AM
Heh, if I could find a way to keep the rank down in EoSD I'd be all over it. On Lunatic it's pretty much "if you die, we'll make the next three spells a bit easier." It's not a decision at all, unless you're bent on capturing a certain spell and kill yourself right beforehand, but that's all kinds of crazy.
TD Normal was easier than IN Easy... although Reimu's shottype in that is overpowered as all hell, unlike Scarlet in IN.
You are comparing her to the wrong shot type. Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zengeku on February 27, 2012, 09:51:29 AM
Heh, if I could find a way to keep the rank down in EoSD I'd be all over it. On Lunatic it's pretty much "if you die, we'll make the next three spells a bit easier." It's not a decision at all, unless you're bent on capturing a certain spell and kill yourself right beforehand, but that's all kinds of crazy.You are comparing her to the wrong shot type. Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

Why would you want to keep rank down? That's almost the worst part about dying in a shooter with rank. Killing yourself to lower rank to capture a spell almost invalidates that capture. At least that's how it feels for me. Oh and speaking of rank, it needs to return ZUN. Without the rank dropping with deathbombs that I'm pretty sure EoSD had.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 27, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
Because I can't win at 90fps. :qq:

Nah, I probably can with practice, it's just been beating me up because I can't bomb spam everything. And for the record, deathbombs don't do anything more than a regular bomb to the rank.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Pesco on February 27, 2012, 11:00:15 AM
Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

PCB ReimuA - Timeout every spellcard. It's the only shot type I could be bothered to clear PCB with.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Archin on February 27, 2012, 06:04:47 PM
Rank as a game mechanic doesn't work the same way as choosing a difficulty: generally doing well means the game will get harder, and doing poorly means the game eases to a sort of baseline. Rather, the game attempts to kill the player because he isn't dying enough. The Hyper mechanic in Dodonpachi Daioujou (in particular) also works a bit different than this and is for a different purpose. Donpachi uses the first rank mechanic, note. EoSD had a rank system too; would you call that system a player's decision? Would you call it something that varies enough to enable lesser players and challenge better ones? I see what you're getting at, but the purposes and applications between rank and choosing difficulties are ultimately different.

I stand corrected
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on February 28, 2012, 12:38:48 AM
The more I read this thread, the more I wonder if a fifth difficulty would be useful to more effectively bridge the gaps between the existing difficulty modes; if not now than perhaps in future games where lunatic may reach new heights in difficulty. The ultra patches already attempt to do this, with often practically impossible results.

Easy
Normal people play this mode.

Normal
For people who play shootemup games.

Hard
For masochists.

Lunatic
For crazy people.

Ohgodwhat
It's been nice knowing you...
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Skyler on February 28, 2012, 12:48:25 AM
Easy
I play this when I just feel like playing Touhou without accomplishing something. Which isn't very often. I tend to only play IN on easy when I feel like this instead of EoSD and PCB.

Normal
I play this mode on IN and sometimes PCB. I'm still trying to get more PCB Hard 1ccs though :V

Hard
Probably the mode I play most often, although I can't consistently clear it. I tend to avoid IN Hard since the two teams I find the best to play as both have to fight Marisa and she's That One Boss for me in that game. I can 1cc EoSD on Hard most of the time, although PCB is still mocking me.

Lunatic
I'm starting to play EoSD on this difficulty in hopes that I'll 1cc someday. When I feel like fooling around I'll play IN Lunatic, which is the most fun of all the lunatics (in the games I have) in my opinion. However, I try to avoid PCB Lunatic at all costs. I've never gotten past stage 3 with no continues and sometimes I don't even make it past Chen (damn cat).

Ultra
Never played this and I don't really want to until I've gotten a Lunatic 1cc and Hard 1ccs of all the games I own. I want to get a bit better before installing the patches.
Is a normal version of the game available when you install the Ultra patch or do you have to get rid of the patch to play normal difficulties?
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Tengukami on February 28, 2012, 12:52:38 AM
Hm. What about a fifth difficulty somewhere in the middle, or at either end? Here's a few suggestions:

Before Easy: Peggle Nights
Between Easy and Normal: Spry
Between Normal and Hard: Athletic
Between Hard and Lunatic: GENKI DESU!
After Lunatic: Meth - Not Even Once
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on February 28, 2012, 01:03:11 AM
Yes I believe the ultra patch replace every difficulty with an "ultra" version. So it's not precisely a difficulty beyond Luntic. More like a boost to each one, so there's Ultra Easy, Ultra Normal, etc. You have to remove it to go back to normal.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: XephyrEnigma on February 28, 2012, 01:07:34 AM
Yes I believe the ultra patch replace every difficulty with an "ultra" version. So it's not precisely a difficulty beyond Luntic. More like a boost to each one, so there's Ultra Easy, Ultra Normal, etc. You have to remove it to go back to normal.

This is exactly what they do. They make every difficulty a bit harder across the board.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on February 28, 2012, 01:24:36 AM
Yes I believe the ultra patch replace every difficulty with an "ultra" version. So it's not precisely a difficulty beyond Luntic. More like a boost to each one, so there's Ultra Easy, Ultra Normal, etc. You have to remove it to go back to normal.
Exactly this.
I'd suggest backing up the folder before applying the patch though.
(also play PCB ultra Phantasm)
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: chirpy13 on February 28, 2012, 06:41:35 PM
I'd suggest backing up the folder before applying the patch though.
With the exception of EoSD/IN, this actually isn't necessary with the ultra patches.  The patch just makes a new thXX.exe and renames the original to thXX.OLD.  Just rename the original back to a .exe and you're good to go.  Also note that whichever is named thXX.exe will be the one to run with vsync, so keep in mind you may need to rename the files every so often for that.  EoSD/IN are special because they can't be English patched beforehand.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Random on March 02, 2012, 04:57:06 AM
PCB ReimuA - Timeout every spellcard. It's the only shot type I could be bothered to clear PCB with.

Same goes for IN Sakuya. Seriously, why do Sakuya and Alice Solo both have to suck so much?  :(
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Pesco on March 02, 2012, 05:02:02 AM
Alice solo is pretty damn powerful for Extra according to what I heard. Something about killing Hourai Doll extremely fast.

Shot analysis thread did rank Sakuya as weak, so I don't disagree there.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 02, 2012, 05:10:34 AM
Alice's laser can hit the familiars with the malice cannon, though she has to be paired with Marisa. At least, I've never heard of her doing anything special on her own.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Random on March 02, 2012, 05:16:05 AM
Yukari and Remilia, with both of their familiars attacking simultaneously, outdamage Alice. Although there's no need to shotgun with Alice, her range is abysmal compared to the other youkai shots.

Yeah, she's only effective with Marisa.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: I have no name on March 02, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
Alice's laser can hit the familiars with the malice cannon, though she has to be paired with Marisa. At least, I've never heard of her doing anything special on her own.
Mokou's wing familiar is also hit by Alice, dealing 1.5x her normal damage whenever the wings are out (almost all spells and some of the nonspells)
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: shadowbringer on March 02, 2012, 05:23:51 AM
Heh, if I could find a way to keep the rank down in EoSD I'd be all over it. On Lunatic it's pretty much "if you die, we'll make the next three spells a bit easier." It's not a decision at all, unless you're bent on capturing a certain spell and kill yourself right beforehand, but that's all kinds of crazy.You are comparing her to the wrong shot type. Reimu's overpowered in pretty much every game in the series.

- timeout spells that seem less risky to do so
- try to avoid being in full power mode for as long as you can
- deathbombing is good if you have good enough timing
- don't try to play for score, don't lose your focus (1cc) -- I avoided point items (until when lives were low and I didn't bother to memo the score-based extend marks) to remind myself to deviate from my tendency of trying to play for score (which gets me killed invariably)

other thoughts on my "flight plan" (not related to rank control) were:
- bomb the clippier patterns (because I didn't bother and still don't bother to try to memorize the player/bullet hitboxes -- I still overestimate them and underestimate them, and my memory has proven, to me at least, to be chronically unreliable)
- bomb stage 5 midboss Sakuya if you need to, don't try to kill her at the center of the screen :(  (she seems to take the most damage at the sides of the screen)
- play until you bring enough resources to stages 5 and 6, 1cc the game (by bombing Sakuya's huge-looking green knives and occasionally bombing the patterns from Remilia that you happen to not remember at the time, and maybe bombing the streams of large bubbles during her bat transformation nonspell.. because I can't remember bullet hitboxes lol)
- MarisaB has powerful bombs that will aid you through most of the spellcards/nonspells (since Remilia has bomb invincibility in latter patterns), and a good laser too.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 02, 2012, 06:18:57 AM
If the information on the wiki is correct, as well as my conclusions from my own experiments, timing out spells will not reduce rank. The wiki also suggests that no matter what you do, the rank increase from grazing is going to dwarf whatever negative factors you can try to utilize. You would have to let two items drop for every single bullet you graze just to keep the rank the same, and that's ignoring the steady increase which it gets by default. And despite what appears to be a common misconception, deathbombing does not have the same effect as dying. As far as I can tell, and according to the wiki, it is the same as a normal bomb, that is to say, any effect on rank is imperceptible and instantly undone by unavoidable grazing. I've spent four bombs in immediate succession against Patchy and still seen no change in rank. The only real way to reduce it is to die, and then it's back up to max in seconds.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: shadowbringer on March 03, 2012, 04:21:39 AM
I thought capturing spells (not sure about nonspells) made rank angrier, like being in full power mode did? iirc, timing out some patterns made the latter ones less dificult.. and I didn't pay much attention to grazing, at least no more than avoiding the point items, and power items (both the 128 power mark and the surplus power items) unless I needed the extend (at 60 million, not sure though). (shameless plug (http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=9579) because I'm not in the mood to try to learn/play EoSD again :p)

Looking at some revisions on the rank section on EoSD's wiki, we have..

[quote http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Gameplay&oldid=41636]18:01, 24 September 2006 J Lau (Talk | contribs) (15,344 bytes) (→Rank)

There exists a rank system in this game. As rank increases, enemy bullets will generally become faster and more plentiful. This effect that rank has in this game is most prominent with boss attacks, where the bullet difference between minimum and maximum rank can differ by a factor of 4 or more.

The longer you stay alive, the higher the rank will increase, until it reaches the maximum for that stage. Dying decreases rank by a fair amount. Bombing affects rank in a few select spell cards, e.g. Water Elf. [/quote]

[quote http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Gameplay&oldid=41638]01:01, 11 March 2007 Veracity (Talk | contribs) m (16,201 bytes) (→Rank)

There exists a rank system in this game. As rank increases, enemy bullets will generally become faster and more plentiful. This effect that rank has in this game is most prominent with boss attacks, where the bullet count difference between minimum and maximum rank can differ by a factor of 4 or more, and bullet movement speeds can double. Note that the game does not display the numerical value of rank at any point - under most circumstances, it can be estimated only by observing bullet pattern behaviour.

Rank ranges from zero to thirty-two, and is reset to sixteen at the beginning of each stage. It increases gradually with survival time, and jumps up noticeably on defeating spell cards, until it reaches the cap of thirty-two, corresponding to the highest variable difficulty. The rank value is decreased by sixteen whenever the player is hit. This means that, for the most part, the only way to reduce the variable difficulty is to die. Since the rank drop occurs on a hit, not a death, it is theoretically possible, through counter-bombing (see Lives, above), to reduce the value by sixteen without the loss of a life. Since the game's allowed counter-bomb interval is so short, though, it is not possible in practice to do so deliberately.

Bombing affects rank in a few select spell cards, e.g. Water Elf. [/quote]

and the most recent version,

[quote http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil/Gameplay&oldid=227646]18:40, 28 October 2011 ThibG (Talk | contribs) (17,599 bytes) (→Rank: Fixed a few misconceptions, based on observation of the memory during gameplay, as well as using a debugger)

There exists a rank system in this game. As rank increases, enemy bullets will generally become faster and more plentiful. This effect that rank has in this game is most prominent with boss attacks, where the bullet count difference between minimum and maximum rank can differ by a factor of 4 or more, and bullet movement speeds can double. Note that the game does not display the numerical value of rank at any point - under most circumstances, it can be estimated only by observing bullet pattern behaviour.

Rank ranges from ten to thirty-two (from twelve to twenty in easy), and is set to sixteen at the beginning of the game. It increases gradually with survival time (+1 every ~32 seconds), item collection (from +0 to +2 depending on the item type), grazing (+0.06) and gaining an extra life through score (+0.02), until it reaches the cap of thirty-two, corresponding to the highest variable difficulty. The rank value is decreased by sixteen whenever the player is hit, by two when the player uses a bomb, and by 0.03 when an item disappears through the bottom of the screen. [/quote]

maybe, based on this, some things need to be analyzed:
- if capturing spells/nonspells make the rank angrier
- if being in full power or collecting point items while in full power or collecting point items while they've reached their maximum value (51200 iirc) makes rank angrier
- if rank is maintained across stages
- if rank is decreased on hit, not on death (or vice-versa)
- if score or number of lives/bombs affects rank
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on March 03, 2012, 04:44:30 AM
Whoa, no more grazing Demarcation for me. I also die a little on the inside when items drop out, so I guess I'm screwed :V
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 03, 2012, 04:56:52 AM
Since it (presumably) resets at the beginning of each stage there is no risk in grazing Demarcation. Grazing Daiyousei is another thing, but I don't think it matters much. If you don't die, you hit max rank pretty soon.

I would like to know precisely how it works though. So far I can only be sure that the things I've tried (timing out attacks, dropping items, and deathbombing) seem to have no effect, at least on Lunatic. Rank may work differently on different difficulties.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: LolMeiling on March 18, 2012, 07:07:22 AM
Meh  I'm newish, But if most of them are as hard as EoSD, I'l be occupied for a LOOOOONGGGG time. I still can't get past patchoulli on EASY DX :blush: :o :]
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: xForeverFanaticx on March 19, 2012, 01:08:53 AM
Hmm... okay. So the deathbombing does work to reduce the rank. ALthough... does it reduce it by 16 from the hit AND 2 from the bomb? Or just 16 from the hit?

Does the rank's effect on attacks count into the decimal places as well? Or just the integer, but there exists decimals still?

Hmm... well, this just makes scoring all the more tough. If only rank also had some sort of effect on score multipliers... :\ But then scores would be insanely higher too xD
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on March 19, 2012, 02:27:37 AM
Neither. Just from a bit of screwing around...
- You start at 16 rank
- You cannot go below 10 rank nor above 32 (In Extra mode, min is 14 and max is 18)
- Bombing (incl. deathbomb) drops 2
- Extend raises 2
- Dying drops 16
- Grazing increases rank
- Getting point items at max value increases rank
- Rank slowly increases during stage

- Capturing cards does not increase rank
- Killing enemies does not
- Hitting the boss does not
- Collecting power does not (incl getting full)
- Collecting items below PoC does not

Memory address is 0069D710
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 19, 2012, 02:54:21 AM
And despite what appears to be a common misconception, deathbombing does not have the same effect as dying. As far as I can tell, and according to the wiki, it is the same as a normal bomb
Why does nobody believe me when I say this? Thank you Drake, for figuring all of that out.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: K.B. on March 19, 2012, 10:24:18 PM
I find it astonishing that anyone believed otherwise.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on March 19, 2012, 10:25:46 PM
Maybe it's the fact that EoSD will tally deathbombs under "miss" on the result screen.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: fondue on March 30, 2012, 09:30:37 PM
Maybe it's the fact that EoSD will tally deathbombs under "miss" on the result screen.
EoSD deathbombing? I always thought you couldn't deathbomb in TH7 and under, including PC-98
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Byaaakuren on March 30, 2012, 09:31:40 PM
EoSD deathbombing? I always thought you couldn't deathbomb in TH7 and under, including PC-98

You can definitely deathbomb in EoSD and PCB. Just run into a bullet while pressing X. If you hear the picchun~ and bombed, you did it
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on March 30, 2012, 09:32:28 PM
But I deathbomb all the time in both 7 and 6 >:I

It's just that the window is Quite Fucking Small in 6.

In fact, the character screen refers to Reimu's deathbomb window being larger in PCB.

So ???
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 30, 2012, 09:53:33 PM
lol yeah. Reimu gives you a ton of time to deathbomb in PCB. It can be done in some PC-98 games as well. MS for sure, and probably LLS.

If you thought you couldn't bomb in PCB... IN has probably been spoiling you.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zengeku on March 31, 2012, 07:18:09 AM
According to the wiki you get 0.25 seconds to bomb with Reimu. I'm pretty shocked to find out of this. That means you can probably deathbomb based entirely on reflexes.

Really though Zil, all death-bombing spoils you. Death-bombing is a forgiving way to say, 'you are too slow, but i'll let you bomb anyway'  :V
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 31, 2012, 08:37:10 AM
True enough. It was annoying to find myself bombing too late in other games, for sure. In particular SoEW, where even bombing a bit before you get hit is too slow. :derp:
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Ghaleon on March 31, 2012, 09:16:07 AM
Eh, I'm pretty easy to please regarding difficulty settings in games as long as there's at least 1 setting that's reasonably challenging. I do enjoy a really hard game sure, but I'd rather have one that's hard just because it's hard, than one that's hard but is less hard after memorization. EVERY game becomes easier after a certain level of memorization, but I think some games have their difficulty depend on it more. R-Type for example, often isn't very hard at all once you memorize what to do, but is seemingly impossible before you do. EoSD IMO had a great deal of spellcards, that even if you knew exactly how they worked, weren't any easier (most of patchy's spellcards, scarlet gensokyo, etc). IN on the other hand, really seemed to be all about learning each spellcard's "trick", that, once used, made them more tame than the equivilent ones in the series.

Scoring on Touhou is often all about memorization, which is probably very normal for shmups in general, but that's also why I'm not a big fan of it... like you NEED to know about that big gap in enemies for MoF so you can let the ones before live as long as possible so you don't lose all your faith. Or you NEED to know that you can't hope to get certain colour combinations of UFOs in certain points in UFO. I really hate that, but understand it's what some people like too. It's just not my cup of tea is all.

But yeah, as long as the game has at least one setting that is still considered the equivalent "nintendo hard" on TVtropes AFTER you memorize it, I'll be happy...

As for deathbombing in PCB and EoSD. I do it more often than regular bombs...Not out of reflex of course (though sometimes I swear I do..sometimes...if I count on it I'll fail hard though). When I was a Touhou noob, I was a good boy and I made sure I never counted on deathbombing. But now my bombing habits went down the tubes thanks to exceed, Phantasm romance, and Reimu generally being the superior choice in every Touhou game for the last while. It's kinda sad really, I did my first EoSD lunatic 1cc way back without relying on deathbombing, and PCB, but after that....it's really a hard habit to break. I mean I know intellectually it's bad, but now my gut reflexes say "I think I'm safe" when I'm really not..argh....Basically, now I pretty much never bomb when I think I'm in trouble (cuz I never do, derp). But rather, I'll be playing, and if I somehow "sense" that I'm about to make a mistake (kinda like you make a typo, and you hit the delete key before you even SEE the letter, you KNOW you made the typo), I mash bomb... 90% of the time it's a deathbomb. This sounds good and all, but it still isn't.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Esper on March 31, 2012, 01:59:12 PM
According to the wiki you get 0.25 seconds to bomb with Reimu. I'm pretty shocked to find out of this. That means you can probably deathbomb based entirely on reflexes.

Why haven't I 1cc'd Lunatic yet if I can do this?
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on March 31, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Your reflexes must be rather fail, then :trollface:

Last I checked standard human reaction time was within half of that :derp:

/spitefulness
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zengeku on March 31, 2012, 06:25:03 PM
Why haven't I 1cc'd Lunatic yet if I can do this?

Because you aren't properly utilizing your resources. PCB doesn't really require you to dodge much to 1cc it because of the Cherry border system. I'm sure you could do it if you focused your efforts on it.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Zil on March 31, 2012, 07:58:07 PM
I like how so many people find the Ultra patch makes the game easier just because of the autobombs.
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: チソウ タイゼン on March 31, 2012, 08:05:57 PM
Autobombs do have the capacity to increase your number of collisions from 15 or 18 to 40, 50, or more >_>

If I gave the original Lunacy Star autobombs you'd get over 90 hits before dying >_>
/shamelessselfpromotion
Title: Re: Touhou difficulty intervals
Post by: Drake on March 31, 2012, 08:44:13 PM
I like how so many people find the Ultra patch makes the game easier just because of the autobombs.
this is probably why we've seen a huge influx of people playing ultra normal and ultra hard and such instead of actually going for lunatic
from now on i think i'll mostly ignore non-lunatic ultra clears if they're with autobomb lol