Spell Card Help Topic VI: How do I used Bomb?

[Goldom]

Thanks to savestates and patience (making up for the complete lack of skill I have at 3/9), I do have some times for first-life Yumemi. On easy, it's an average of 326 seconds, 344 on normal. Compared to 98/134 for second life and 84/112 for third. The shortest first life win I've managed was 277 seconds on normal with Yumemi vs herself.

As for PoFV, without savestates I've only managed three true first-life times for the final stage, and all on easy. Reimu vs Eiki cleared first-life in 156s, Komachi won in 224s and Eiki vs Reimu won in 205s.

[Zil]

I checked your spreadsheet for PoDD. Since it seems you only have times while playing as Chiyuri and Yumemi, we should only look at the Chiyuri times. So 374 on Easy and 411 on Normal. Any times recorded while using Yumemi (Or Reimu, Mima, Ellen, and Rikako, for that matter) should be ignored in this case, since those characters can easily win faster than they're supposed to. (Likewise for PoFV, I think only Komachi's time there is reliable.) Times from Kana and Kotohime would probably be best.

@Karisa: Technically Eiki lets herself drop to her last half-orb, then dodges everything, but yeah, it could be the same for Yumemi. And I'm somewhat hesitant to try to guess her Lunatic timer just from Goldom's Easy times, since there are so few of them, but assuming stage 1 on Easy is 40 seconds, and on Lunatic it's 100, I'd guess you could estimate Yumemi's Lunatic timer to between 900 and 1000 seconds. I'd rather just do Lunatic runs and use savestates to no-miss the game though, but there are a number of things I want to test before that. As you said, It's possible that she actually does try to be unbeatable, and only gets hit through bad luck. Further, since I've only ever managed first round wins against her (with low tier characters) after having lost lives earlier in the game, I suspect that in PoDD, dying not only weakens the current boss, but the next ones as well. (So it's easier to no-miss Chiyuri if you died in stage 7, for instance.) So maybe Yumemi only goes "all out" if you no-miss the whole game before her. Basically I want to be really sure about how things work in the earlier stages, particularly 6,7, and 8, before dealing with Yumemi.

[Wriggle]

Okay, seriously. How the hell do I do Rorschach? I've perfected Koishi 3 times (one with lolreimub) and I still don't know a consistent strategy to survive it.

Here's my newest fail. I survive everything up to it in a pacifist run, and then lose ALL my lives there. What I try is to lure Koishi to one side then run to the other before she throws dense shit at me, so from complete bullshit it becomes some pure dodging. But seems like it's not being enough (I can sometimes capture it, but timing out is another thing). Is there a recommended strategy to it, or something I'm missing out? :ohdear:

[Tsym]

Okay, seriously. How the hell do I do Rorschach? I've perfected Koishi 3 times (one with lolreimub) and I still don't know a consistent strategy to survive it.

Here's my newest fail. I survive everything up to it in a pacifist run, and then lose ALL my lives there. What I try is to lure Koishi to one side then run to the other before she throws dense shit at me, so from complete bullshit it becomes some pure dodging. But seems like it's not being enough (I can sometimes capture it, but timing out is another thing). Is there a recommended strategy to it, or something I'm missing out? :ohdear:

It's umm... Reading and muscle memory like most other cards. Although I didn't know that Koishi actually follows you in that card. I thought her movement was random. For the most part, it seems like you have a solid strategy for it, and your only real issue now is just nerves or something. It does seem like you might be able to predict when Koishi will throw out a "thick" wave of bullets from the replay, but I'm not fast forwarding through all those timeouts again (way too long), so I can't be sure. I'm pretty sure there's no other gimmick it though.

[Elysia]

Okay, seriously. How the hell do I do Rorschach? I've perfected Koishi 3 times (one with lolreimub) and I still don't know a consistent strategy to survive it.

Here's my timeout of it.

The best way is to try to avoid being under Koishi as much as possible, but she follows you constantly, so no matter what you do there will be waves where it's pretty much unavoidable. I would recommend doing one or two quick throwaway attempts where you stay under Koishi the whole time, so you learn how to dodge those sorts of waves. That way they'll be a lot less likely to screw you up in the actual run.

[Sakurei]

so, uhh, I suppose I'll do it like Karisa, drop a video and hope someone can tell me i I can doing something generally wrong. it's a game over to kotohime, hurr durr, but marisa and reimu went terrible, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggK6mHXM6Jc

[Wriggle]

Well, okay, thank you both. Yesterday I tried to dodge on the bottom and died, tried again dodging going up through the gaps and captured, but because I got really lucky (I perfected her for the 4th time :V). Looks like I'll have to choose one way to stick with, until I get consistent at it or something.

[Zil]

so, uhh, I suppose I'll do it like Karisa, drop a video and hope someone can tell me i I can doing something generally wrong. it's a game over to kotohime, hurr durr, but marisa and reimu went terrible, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggK6mHXM6Jc

First of all, you seem to be shooting kind of slowly. There were times (like 6:48 and 12:32 for instance) where it looked like you got hit because you weren't shooting fast enough. I'm not sure what you could do about speeding up if that's as fast as you can go. Maybe something like that hotkey thing that Goldom made a while ago. But then, you should probably be relying on charge attacks a bit more in those situations anyway. Like whenever a big shitstorm comes at you, assuming you notice it in time, try to both misdirect it and have a charge attack ready, so you can shoot through any fireballs and whatever.

Then there were a few places where you used a boss attack when you where out of bombs. That's something you should never do. Always hyper instead.

At 14:55, when you nearly avoided everything but then bombed at the last second, you probably shouldn't have used the bomb. You had a pretty good chance of not getting hit, and even if you did get hit, you probably wouldn't have been reduced to your last half heart, since it hadn't been very long since the previous hit and you didn't have much damage. So ultimately you just kind of wasted the bomb. (And also realize that if you had misdirected that wave further to the left, there would have been no danger in the first place.)

So try to realize when shooting won't be enough, and you'll have to use a charge attack, try to misdirect things better, and try to get the best use out of your bombs. I feel like these things were the main reason Marisa killed you, since you didn't seem to have too much trouble with her spells and bosses. It's hard to explain, but just play a lot and you kind of get a feel for misdirecting things and all that. I can't really tell you any specific thing you're doing wrong, at least that isn't already contained in one the previous things I wrote. I think it's just a matter of getting better at everything.

But it's not like know everything. There are quite a few people playing PoDD now, so maybe you guys can help each other out more than I can.

[Sakurei]

haha, it would have definitely been smarter to use a charged attack. especially at 12.32. it's actually hard to say for me, too. I think I can probably tap faster, but I'll try to rely on charge attacks more then.

even if I probably shouldn't, I always worry about my score to an extent, do I use a boss attack instead of just destroying the enemy boss. silly, I know, and it likely killed me more than just a few times already, I'll try to fix that, I guess.

14.55 haha,lolwut why. my movements were really stupid, because I backed down into the way of the bullets, that's why I used the bomb. but you are right, I probably would have had a heart or 1 1/2 left even if I had gotten hit. I chalk that one up to reflex-panic bomb.

there may be quite a few people playing PoDD; but you're likely the only one using chiyuri - and you're also likely the most knowledgable one. just saying that now. I'll try to heed you advice and see how it turns out in hope that I can improve at a not-snail pace. haha

[LadyScarlet]

Am I the only one who finds Starlight Typhoon MUCH easier than Non-Directional Laser? I've always had a weakness for NDL-type spells.

[ScarletRhapsody]

I need some help capturing Sanae's first spell (Esoterica "Nine Syllable Stabs") in SA. I can never get past it without wasting at least a single bomb.

[Validon98]

Okay, to capture Nine Syllable Slabs, while the dialogue is going on place yourself right at the bottom of the text box above the enemy icon. That's a place where the lasers won't hit you. You can go a little lower than that, but the first wave of bullets will be a bit tougher to dodge. After that, simply dodge the bullets as they approach, but try to stay near that original safespot. It's tight, but you should be able to do it.

[PMW]

Okay, this is something I don't get at all, why do people move up to dodge the lasers in Nine Syllable Stabs? One's perfectly fine just staying at the bottom center. The lasers don't hit you at the bottom center and it's a lot easier than a silly method of moving up to dodge the lasers.

[Validon98]

Not above the ENEMY, just above the symbol at the bottom. I'm not saying to move up. ^^;

[Kaze_Senshi]

Looking for some tips about the following spellcards:

* Murasa's penultimate and last spellcard;
* Byakuren's first spellcard;

Also if someone knows good replays to learn how to survive (not how to score) in Touhou 10,12 and 13 I'd be happy to watch them

[Marisa Kirisame]

Doing some hard runs in UFO using Drake's boss rusHow u Kogasa first spell with anyone that is not Frog Sanae?

Also, I fail hard at St. Nikou on hard. any ideas?

[Tsym]

I need some help capturing Sanae's first spell (Esoterica "Nine Syllable Stabs") in SA. I can never get past it without wasting at least a single bomb.

The lasers are static every wave. There are tons of safe spots you can use. Bottom center, like many people suggested, works fine. The only wave of rice bullets you should have trouble with is the second wave where they're all spread out. I believe that the entire array is actually aimed at you, but I don't know how to manipulate that. It's probably easier to just read and dodge than find another method to do it.

Okay, this is something I don't get at all, why do people move up to dodge the lasers in Nine Syllable Stabs? One's perfectly fine just staying at the bottom center. The lasers don't hit you at the bottom center and it's a lot easier than a silly method of moving up to dodge the lasers.

Moving up allows you to graze more for score. If you're really trying to score though, you'd be following the lasers as they come along the left side and top of the screen.

Looking for some tips about the following spellcards:

* Murasa's penultimate and last spellcard;
* Byakuren's first spellcard;

Also if someone knows good replays to learn how to survive (not how to score) in Touhou 10,12 and 13 I'd be happy to watch them

Murasa's penultimate card is aimed. She also moves in your direction after she fires the anchors. If you dodge to the same side every time you do the card, you should find that the first 2 waves or so are more or less static due to how it works. Everything after that is read and dodge. The droplets that come out of the anchors are random though. It's a fairly tough card without practice, but as you get used to how the glowing bullets move, it'll get easier.

Her last card is relatively simple. Just move so that you are lined up either horizontally or vertically with the droplet ring so that when you need to move through it, you'll only be making straight lines. Since the speed at which Murasa moves is different among difficulties, you'll have to adjust based on what difficulty you're playing at. On Lunatic, stopping in every corner and aligning yourself there works. On easier difficulties, it's a bit more variable, though I'm fairly certain that a triangle shape works on Normal and maybe on Hard.

Byakuren's first card is luck and being very skilled at reading and dodging. There's no particular trick to it. Because of how it works, you probably just want to stay under Byakuren the entire time. It's a definite bomb on a full run though because of how easy it is to clip.

As for good replays, I recommend looking at no bomb runs, as you'll get a sense of what's really difficult without bombs and what isn't. There are tons of good replays for MoF so no recommendations there. Riz has done many amazing runs for UFO Lunatic, and I really got nothing for TD because of how little people care for it. You can probably just look up replays of the better people on the forum (Nereid, Zengeku, Zil, Baity, etc etc).

Doing some hard runs in UFO using Drake's boss rusHow u Kogasa first spell with anyone that is not Frog Sanae?

Also, I fail hard at St. Nikou on hard. any ideas?

Kogasa's first spell is more or less a crap shoot. The only advice I can offer is that she moves in your direction after she fires off her wave. Ideally you want to move her to the right given the rotation of her bullets (which never changes. This might also be different on difficulties easier than Lunatic). You do NOT want her to go left, because I believe you will almost always get overwhelmed by the parasols before you can clear the card. There is a safespot you can abuse for it though. Look at any NBNUFO replay for more information. I'm pretty sure that everyone who did that uses the safespot.

St. Nikou on Hard is different than on Lunatic since you can't sit in the left corner and clear it that way. However, each wave has a spot on the screen where dodging it is much easier. Start on the right side, then follow Byakuren to the left, then stay there for the next two waves. Then follow her back over to the right for the next wave. Unfortunately that's as far as I remember because you'll clear the card at that point if you go into it at full power.

[Zil]

Also if someone knows good replays to learn how to survive (not how to score) in Touhou 10,12 and 13 I'd be happy to watch them

I'd personally recommend watching 90fps runs. I think that's better than watching no-bomb runs since good bomb placement is so important, especially in TD. Of the games you requested, there happens to be at least one 90fps run for each. If you can get the replay files themselves, then it may be a good idea to watch them at regular speed.

[Seppo Hovi]

I don't think rescourse management is something you can learn from watching a replay. It's something that comes to you once you learn the game well enough to a certain extent.

You can watch replays for routes and learn to copy them, sure. However, sticking to only one route isn't exactly a good thing, since you'll eventually mess up something within a full run of a game. Fixing things needs some flexibility, which requires knowledge and control.

Also, I'd say that it's much more important to know why do something instead of how to do something.

[fsvgm777]

...I'm blind. Delete this post, please.

[Kaze_Senshi]

Oh thanks for the useful answers

I don't think rescourse management is something you can learn from watching a replay. It's something that comes to you once you learn the game well enough to a certain extent.

Maybe by watching some good replays I can learn something resource management. For example if I watch a replay I could learn when to use the Trance mode on th13 to get more lifes. (Someone could put more details on the th13 strategy page on wiki, it looks poor ;x )

[Marisa Kirisame]

Thanks Tsym. I'll give it a shot.

[ScarletRhapsody]

It's been a while since I posted for extra boss help, but I'm having trouble with Kogasa's spell cards (In the extra stage, of course)

Namely her Surprising Rain "Guerrilla Typhoon" and Halo "Karakasa Surprising Flash." I find that I always have to bomb on these two.

Any tips on clearing them?

[Tsym]

It's been a while since I posted for extra boss help, but I'm having trouble with Kogasa's spell cards (In the extra stage, of course)

Namely her Surprising Rain "Guerrilla Typhoon" and Halo "Karakasa Surprising Flash." I find that I always have to bomb on these two.

Any tips on clearing them?

Guerrilla Typhoon is just a plain hard card. It's mainly a test of your reflexes. For the most part, I recommend stating out by only doing vertical dodges around the middle of the screen, underneath Kogasa. Moving too far to either side makes it much harder to recover. You'll really need to know how to read ahead to do this one, so don't sweat it if you need to bomb it, because it's definitely understandable.

Surprising Flash actually isn't too hard. People use different methods for it. For one, you can read the lasers at around the middle of the screen, closer to Kogasa. The lasers are straight so this shouldn't be much of a problem. The reason why is because, if you remember from physics, tangential speed is less closer to the center, so it moves slower up there. You can also keep your eyes peeled in the opposite direction of the way the lasers are spinning. So if the lasers are spinning to the right, look maybe 2 character lengths to your left, focus on a gap as the array slows down, and move into it. Or you don't even need to find a gap, and you can just move out of the line of the lasers as it stops. It still takes a bit of practice though.

[PMW]

Any tips on Murasa's 3rd spell? I find it to be really difficult for some reason, even harder than luck vortex or the bullshit 3rd nonspell, so, yeah. Any help?

[Tsym]

Any tips on Murasa's 3rd spell? I find it to be really difficult for some reason, even harder than luck vortex or the bullshit 3rd nonspell, so, yeah. Any help?

It's an aimed pattern, and Murasa always moves towards your position after she fires the anchors. If you start out under her, slightly to the left, the first wave will always be static, and that should become muscle memory. After that, try not to move with Murasa from either the left/right side into the corner, because the space between anchors will be smaller than on other places of the screen. The card is pretty much random dodging aside from those tips, but it's kind of muscle memory because the glowing bullets move in a rather predictable fashion after you get used to them.

[BT]

I've come to the conclusion that I can't tap fast enough in PoDD.

[Sakurei]

I've come to the conclusion that I can't tap fast enough in PoDD.

same. I noticed that I was tapping way too slow at times. I got hit a lot of times because I oculdn't tap quickly enough to destroy the enemies.

I find it hilarious how we seem to have similar problems in clearing PoDD

[Zil]

I think it's perfectly fair if people use Autohotkey or something to shoot automatically. I tried playing with a keyboard a while ago and found that I couldn't shoot nearly as fast as I would like to, which is a moronic limitation to have forced on you.

[Karisa]

I've never had trouble shooting quickly enough in PoDD (and unlike SoEW, it doesn't even tire out my hand, probably because PoDD involves firing in bursts rather than continuously). I have a laptop though, where the keys are easier to press than a standard computer keyboard, so that may be relevant.