Author Topic: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!  (Read 223659 times)

Leon゠Helsing

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #570 on: May 21, 2014, 03:36:01 PM »
Yeah, but now she has a reputation, and Gensokyo is a small place. She probably won't have much luck with that kind of thing in the future, not for anything large-scale at least.
You may have a point there. But then again, new 2hus who might not know better can always show up.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #571 on: May 21, 2014, 05:55:07 PM »
In any case, she's pretty much the closest thing to a Yuuki Terumi equivalent in here, so unless someone manages to seal her...
How so? I don't play Blazblue so you'd need to explain this one. 

So I don't know much about an  amanojaku's nature but what I here is that they need to cause misfortune, or whatever, in the same way that Murasa needs to sink ships? Well clearly these youkai were able to exist in the greater world for some period of time, and so were able to cause whatever trouble they caused. I imagine this is because they were able to cause their mischief and then move before someone came to exterminate them. The problem for Seija is that Gensokyo is not that big so she can't keep running. Furthermore, she hasn't been subtle enough with her actions to keep up something like a sustainable stream of misfortunes for a long time. I would expect Seija to be able to notice this so I'm guessing she decided on this course of action for a reason. Maybe she intends on riding this entire incident for a while. That's the only thing I could guess until we see her do something else and that's rather boring.

Serela

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #572 on: May 21, 2014, 06:20:55 PM »
Not quite; Seija's nature is just to be a rebel. She likes doing things that other people hate, and hates doing things that makes people happy.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

AJS

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #573 on: May 21, 2014, 08:02:40 PM »
Following the logic that Seija always likes to rebel against the norm, that means that she'll never ever win.  Because the moment she stages a revolution that actually SUCCEEDS, she's going to want to turn around and rebel against that as well.

Serela

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #574 on: May 21, 2014, 09:10:46 PM »
Following it as pure logic will always give you some kind of weird result, because people don't work that way.

The rebellion she tried in DDC probably would have satisfied her (At least for awhile) because of how many people it would have pissed off and how very upside-down the heirarchy would be after it succeeded. If people got resigned to it and eventually accepted it as the norm she might decide it was boring, but actually upkeeping the ridiculous situation of the weak ruling the strong in itself probably would keep that from happening. I mean, as soon as the stuff keeping it in place went lax for a minute there'd be no reason they wouldn't get overthrown.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:13:39 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #575 on: May 21, 2014, 10:25:54 PM »
What it seems like to me is that Seija isn't manipulating anyone but rather being influenced by her environment. She'll turn into a saint if everyone becomes evil.

Leon゠Helsing

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #576 on: May 21, 2014, 11:42:19 PM »
How so? I don't play Blazblue so you'd need to explain this one.
In that they're both driven to troll the hell out of everyone due to their nature. Serela already explained Seija's nature, while Terumi IIRC is actually sustained by hate.

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #577 on: May 22, 2014, 02:01:14 AM »
What it seems like to me is that Seija isn't manipulating anyone but rather being influenced by her environment. She'll turn into a saint if everyone becomes evil.
*shrug* Keep moral relativism in mind. She won't be considered a "saint" by all the "evil" people.

Serela

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #578 on: May 22, 2014, 02:34:37 AM »
What it seems like to me is that Seija isn't manipulating anyone but rather being influenced by her environment. She'll turn into a saint if everyone becomes evil.
The manipulation part we were talking about was in reference to DDC, where the whole incident was from her manipulating Sukuna.

I'm also not sure if it'd really be being a saint if she'd just be doing "good" things purely for the sake of pissing people off, even if it was to piss off bad people. She wouldn't do good things that a significant amount of people would actually like, after all.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Abraham Lincoln

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  • Make Bach Great Again!
Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #579 on: May 22, 2014, 11:01:21 AM »
*shrug* Keep moral relativism in mind. She won't be considered a "saint" by all the "evil" people.

I'm looking from a third-party viewpoint.

What are the odds that Seija might be a suicidal, depressed masochist that litters and wastes money? After all, most people would want to be alive, happy, free, clean and wealthy. And Seija prides herself on being able to be the absolute opposite of majority of the things in existence.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #580 on: May 22, 2014, 03:20:21 PM »
What are the odds that Seija might be a suicidal, depressed masochist that litters and wastes money? After all, most people would want to be alive, happy, free, clean and wealthy. And Seija prides herself on being able to be the absolute opposite of majority of the things in existence.
All living things in the universe are carbon-based, too. Maybe Seija is made from silicon!

You can carry this Opposite Of Everything logic into eternity. The main thing is that Seija is a trickster, a contrarian and a trouble-maker. That's the core of who she is. Gensokyo has had to contend with some truly malicious characters in the past, but they've more or less settled in/been neutralized for the reasons already mentioned in this thread - sooner or later, people get shruggo about these villains, and the villains themselves find their niche somewhere in the scheme of things. That's part of what makes Gensokyo what it is.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

pineyappled

Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #581 on: May 22, 2014, 05:54:15 PM »
Maybe she's antimatter.  :colbert:

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #582 on: May 22, 2014, 07:46:46 PM »
Funny how I've seen some people take her reversal shtick so far that they believe that she always says the opposite of what she's thinking for the sole sake of being a contrarian due to her being an amanojaku. But isn't she more of a normal trickster in canon?

That, and the entire Gensokyo ganging up on her to exact revenge (breaking the spell card rules no less) seems too far-fetched for me. The DDC youkai rampage incident wasn't even that serious compared to earlier ones, and that's the first time we've seen that severe of a reaction - Tenshi got other people gunning for her in her story mode, but that's because she leveled Hakurei shrine and caused weather anomalities, meanwhile the rest always got away scot-free and even got invited for tea, including Remilia, the queen of selfishness who spread poisonous mist around to walk outdoors without a parasol. If Gensokyo actually is so big on the "might makes right" idea that being one of the powerhouses is a prerequisite to being granted forgiveness (assuming you don't cause trouble any more), then I can kinda get behind the notion of a social upheaval in Gensokyo.

The big question here: is Seija an Aya or a Sanae?
I kinda wonder about your definition of "an Aya" or "a Sanae", but if you mean the pattern of transformation into playable characters, then she is definietly Aya 2.0, as she got her own game after her initial apperance in order for ZUN to expand upon her character, giving us some alternate spin on danmaku on the side. Sanae is more of a Sakuya 2.0, having only joined as a youkai exterminator and an optional character in a main game, as opposed to a spin-off.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 08:01:08 PM by Critz »

Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #583 on: May 22, 2014, 08:11:12 PM »
Funny how I've seen some people take her reversal shtick so far that they believe that she always says the opposite of what she's thinking for the sole sake of being a contrarian due to her being an amanojaku. But isn't she more of a normal trickster in canon?

That, and the entire Gensokyo ganging up on her to exact revenge (breaking the spell card rules no less) seems too far-fetched for me. The DDC youkai rampage incident wasn't even that serious compared to earlier ones, and that's the first time we've seen that severe of a reaction - Tenshi got other people gunning for her in her story mode, but that's because she leveled Hakurei shrine and caused weather anomalities, meanwhile the rest always got away scot-free and even got invited for tea, including Remilia, the queen of selfishness who spread poisonous mist around to walk outdoors without a parasol. If Gensokyo actually is so big on the "might makes right" idea that being one of the powerhouses is a prerequisite to being granted forgiveness (assuming you don't cause trouble any more), then I can kinda get behind the idea of a social upheaval in Gensokyo.

Technically, Seija's the only one who broke the spell card rules. And the only thing she did was refuse to accept defeat after losing a spell card battle. 1) None of the attacks are impossible (as shown by no item runs). 2) Items ARE allowed in spellcard duels, as shown by Lavaetinn (or however you spell it) Optical Camoflauge and all of Hatate's attacks. 3) As far as I can tell, nobody used their full power. Otherwise Yukari could have just gapped Seija into some prison, Yuyuko could have OHKOd her, or Reimu could have gone all Fantasy Heaven.
This is the first time anyone has continued with their original plan after losing in danmaku (barring all the continues we use in the games, but Gameplay and Story Segregation). Remilia cut the mist as soon as Reimu beat her, Tenshi caused one incident then no more. Seija lost, but she's still trying to strike up a rebellion.

On the whole "might makes right" thing, I can only say "what?" Wasn't that the whole reason the spell card rules were made in the first place? So the average person can stand a chance against people like Reimu and Yukari?

Though I do agree with you about the contrarian thing. I don't think she literally acts the opposite of everything, she just tries to piss people off when she gets the opportunity.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 08:15:29 PM by TresserT »
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #584 on: May 22, 2014, 08:48:54 PM »
Yea, Seija might be a rebel but she seems to act rational enough in her dialogue and personal thoughts, far as I can tell.

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #585 on: May 22, 2014, 10:30:18 PM »
Nevermind the forgiveness thing then. I just re-read the dialogues and it does actually seem more of a case of Seija not willing to give up. The hunt for her is still unusually severe, considering that almost all of Gensokyo is after her, even those who would never have any remote business chasing after her or resolving incidents for that matter. And since I doubt the likes of Remilia, Yuyuko or Suika would even consider her a notable threat to current influence system in Gensokyo (not to mention those who had initially wanted the upheaval considered it not worth the effort and turned on her too), then I suppose the whole deal was more along the lines of a harmless Gensokyo-wide game of tag, with Aya happily adding fuel to the fire via her newspaper and others playing along :V.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:33:11 PM by Critz »

Imosa

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #586 on: May 23, 2014, 01:04:49 AM »
Seija lost, but she's still trying to strike up a rebellion.
Wait,were the events of this game supposed to cause a rebellion? How?

Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #587 on: May 23, 2014, 01:10:00 AM »
Wait,were the events of this game supposed to cause a rebellion? How?

I'll admit I am jumping to conclusions with insufficient information. I can't read japanese, so I'm going solely off the stage 8 dialogue between Seija and Sukuna from the wiki. :P
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
NMNB: MoF Hard, SA Extra, UFO Extra

CyberAngel

  • Retired
Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #588 on: May 23, 2014, 10:57:14 AM »
The in-game manual has some backstory. There's no translation in wiki yet, but those online patch guys work fast. So it's true, she did want to continue her rebelion and everyone was out to stop her.

Gamer251

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #589 on: May 23, 2014, 12:22:24 PM »
All images have been translated a week after the release of ISC, and put into images some days after.
Really sorry for using the same font for the images since I don't have any decent fonts.
And since nobody was interested, I put the text into images.


tl;dr

Also, all images are translated into English, although as I said, bad fonts.


"You ought to watch out, yourself. Even a high-school girl can make her own weapons these days, after all..."

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #590 on: May 23, 2014, 12:36:50 PM »
The in-game manual has some backstory. There's no translation in wiki yet, but those online patch guys work fast. So it's true, she did want to continue her rebelion and everyone was out to stop her.
Also have in mind, where Seija is concerned: there was once a hellcrow who decided it would be an awesome idea to destroy Gensokyo itself, due in part to a "misunderstood" message from a rival Shinto god. But even then, things calmed down again. Some trickster contrarian running around being a dick to everyone is likely something Gensokyo can handle.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Leon゠Helsing

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #591 on: May 23, 2014, 01:12:00 PM »
Maybe the next incident will be caused by someone pissed off by Seija enough to exact disproportionate retribution and attempt to :flamingv: her? :V

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #592 on: May 23, 2014, 01:46:45 PM »
I'm a bit torn about the possibility of Seija Arc. On one hand, that would be devolving from having groups of new characters with unique goals and motivations into results of a single character trying to screw with everyone. (No, Moriya Shrine conspiracy isn't a thing, only SA was caused by them. UFO and TD were just unforeseen consequences.) On the other hand, that would open a possibility to easily add otherwise good-natured characters (if they were tricked by Seija, for example). So while I think such "arc" is unlikely to happen (compared to her fate left open in DDC, ISC nailed Seija's place nicely), it does have its merits.

Another random thought. Those who like Seija for any reason are missing the point, it would actually make her upset. The whole idea behind her is that you're supposed to hate her, and not as a love/hate thing. Her DDC battle, hidden ISC achievements, everything about her is supposed to annoy you.

Leon゠Helsing

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #593 on: May 23, 2014, 02:04:52 PM »
>You're supposed to hate her
>[Liking her] would actually make her upset


Okay guys, you heard the man. Love her like you've never loved before! :V

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #594 on: May 23, 2014, 05:37:45 PM »
Another random thought. Those who like Seija for any reason are missing the point, it would actually make her upset. The whole idea behind her is that you're supposed to hate her, and not as a love/hate thing. Her DDC battle, hidden ISC achievements, everything about her is supposed to annoy you.
Again, I think we shouldn't take the Opposite Of Everything thing too literally. Even trolls enjoy it when others find them funny and support their trolling. I doubt Seija is any exception where this is concerned. Not to say she needs or even wants friends; I just don't think she would be upset that someone supported her, considering she is trying to incite a rebellion, after all.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

CyberAngel

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #595 on: May 23, 2014, 07:58:03 PM »
Again, I think we shouldn't take the Opposite Of Everything thing too literally. Even trolls enjoy it when others find them funny and support their trolling. I doubt Seija is any exception where this is concerned. Not to say she needs or even wants friends; I just don't think she would be upset that someone supported her, considering she is trying to incite a rebellion, after all.

Um, what I said is based on what's actually written in her DDC profile. As far as discussing her being a contrarian goes, that is something we can be sure about. My point is that it's applicable both in-universe and in a meta sense.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #596 on: May 23, 2014, 08:09:51 PM »
Um, what I said is based on what's actually written in her DDC profile. As far as discussing her being a contrarian goes, that is something we can be sure about. My point is that it's applicable both in-universe and in a meta sense.
Yes, I caught that. I'm just saying that trying to start a rebellion with, you know, other people kind of strongly implies welcoming supporters.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Critz

  • Heartwarming ★ Miracle
Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #597 on: May 23, 2014, 09:20:35 PM »
Um, what I said is based on what's actually written in her DDC profile. As far as discussing her being a contrarian goes, that is something we can be sure about. My point is that it's applicable both in-universe and in a meta sense.
Right. I stand corrected. I don't really like this at all though - not only that makes her a very flat character if her entire modus operandi is being the opposite of others, but it makes it very hard for me to like her either, as opposed to a hell of an amusing trickster that is Tewi. Not to mention makes her virtually impossible to ship with anyone and eliminates my headcannon of her having a tsundere side to her, but such is life.

Tengukami

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Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #598 on: May 23, 2014, 09:27:04 PM »
Right. I stand corrected. I don't really like this at all though - not only that makes her a very flat character if her entire modus operandi is being the opposite of others, but it makes it very hard for me to like her either, as opposed to a hell of an amusing trickster that is Tewi. Not to mention makes her virtually impossible to ship with anyone and eliminates my headcannon of her having a tsundere side to her, but such is life.
Apart from the tsundere thing, none of what you said actually contradicts her official profile - she still is a contrarian trickster type. Even if her MO is pretty straightforward.

Remember: it's Gensokyo. There's a lot of things that will never get mentioned in the official profiles and dialogues that we can nonetheless draw from them, based on logical extensions of what's written there. Or, at the very least, there are things that are possible about characters, if they are not expressly prohibited by canon, and if we can make the aforementioned logical extensions. Otherwise, there are very, very few characters who would have much depth to them at all.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Touhou 14.3: Danmaku Amanojaku ~ Impossible Spell Card announced!
« Reply #599 on: May 24, 2014, 02:16:25 AM »
From their dialogue in ISC, Seija seemed like she'd be fine with Shinmyoumaru supporting her rebellion.  If someone actually supports your beliefs, you can't be contrary to EVERYONE at the same time.  That said, in the end, she probably values her independence more than friendship, as also shown by that dialogue.

Personally, I think it's a personal thing too.  ISC once again makes reference to the fact that Seija is weak.  Certainly, one might assume from her species that she's causing this social upheaval just for the sake of causing social upheaval, but several of her dialogues on the matter imply to me that she's also doing it because she's bitter at being at the bottom of the ladder and wants to move up in life, which is an entirely understandable thing for her to be, amanojoku or not.