東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[Ikari]

The flying combat is like that in Astra Superstars. Rather than falling all the way to the ground, the characters gradually rubberband to mid-height. You could think about it as having several 'tiers' that you can go up or down to by pressing 'jump', and eventually automatically return to the center level.  No real 'free flight'

Oh my god, it's like a constant River Mist.

We're freaking doomed.

[TheNewGuy]

It only pulls you down or up to a center horizontal line, rather than pushing or pulling you horizontally in respect to your opponent. It will likely keep people from easily flying away from battles, while providing more air space (below and above) and air time than typical jumps. 

[Ikari]

It only pulls you down or up to a center horizontal line, rather than pushing or pulling you horizontally in respect to your opponent. It will likely keep people from easily flying away from battles, while providing more air space (below and above) and air time than typical jumps.

It just kinda feels like it'll be way harder to dodge. In Hisou, you could dash, fly, jump and run your way out of trouble, and the video shows little to no way of dodging without always having the opponent at one inch of your face. It kinda feels like we'll just end up hitting then blocking until one of us dies, like a pokemon battle.

[Zil]

You seem to be drawing some strange conclusions. You can still jump and dash and all that crap, though you can also go down (so you have more options really.) To look at it from another perspective, just imagine that the characters happen to be standing on an invisible platform. The fact that they're "flying" really means nothing. It's just the presentation, and doesn't have much to do with the mechanics. I don't think you'll be losing much control as far as movement goes.

[Ikari]

You seem to be drawing some strange conclusions. You can still jump and dash and all that crap, though you can also go down (so you have more options really.) To look at it from another perspective, just imagine that the characters happen to be standing on an invisible platform. The fact that they're "flying" really means nothing. It's just the presentation, and doesn't have much to do with the mechanics. I don't think you'll be losing much control as far as movement goes.

There's not much of a jump, it's pretty much just dashing up. I know it's pretty similar to an invisible platform, but from what I've seen in the video, it's more slow-paced and mostly made of close range whacking, save for a few projectiles here and here.

Then again, it's just a demo video. I'll play the demo for sure, I'm just drawing speculations and mindless criticism that really won't matter in the end for now.

[Imosa]

Plus, the fact they naturally fall down requires to player tap the up button to make them stay in one spot, and it ends up making the characters look like they're having a massive seizure.

What makes you think you can tap the up button to stay in the air?

Personally, I'm excited for this system. It's a new idea to me, and I love that. You've always been able to jump over your enemies in fighters. Nothing is really changing here except now you can jump under your enemies too.

[Ikari]

What makes you think you can tap the up button to stay in the air?

1) Logic. If you always slowly fall down toward the middle, gently tapping / kinda going up once in a while will make you stay in place.

2) The seizure Reimu's sprite sometime has to go up / Stay in one spot.

[Imosa]

1) Logic. If you always slowly fall down toward the middle, gently tapping / kinda going up once in a while will make you stay in place.

2) The seizure Reimu's sprite sometime has to go up / Stay in one spot.

While it may be logical for something that flies to be able to pick the altitude it flies at I'm going to have to go against that idea. I didn't see any of these seizures you're talking about.

Something that I thought about but don't think is in the game is some conservation of momentum. For one sequence I thought I saw Reimu and Marisa being pushed apart in  from an attack point, as if they were both feeling a force due to the attack (as they would).

[Tengukami]

To be fair, Ikari did say he was "just drawing speculations and mindless criticism that really won't matter in the end for now". Happens every time a new game is on the way; there's always going to be a couple people who start hand-wringing that the game is going to be terrible and "we're freaking doomed". It's the magic of pre-game speculation.

[Ikari]

To be fair, Ikari did say he was "just drawing speculations and mindless criticism that really won't matter in the end for now". Happens every time a new game is on the way; there's always going to be a couple people who start hand-wringing that the game is going to be terrible and "we're freaking doomed". It's the magic of pre-game speculation.

...More or less that. I'm actually excited about the game, you can bet your money on the fact I'm sure as hell gonna get it. I'll play it, and guess what? I'll love it.

I'm just whining about things I don't like because there's so many ''I can't wait for this game'' comments (I'm part of those!) that there's no point in adding more.

You guys are tired of my negativity? Fine, I'll go with what I like;

1) The sprites are gorgeous. They're really pretty.
2) The backgrounds? Just like the sprites, I love them.
3) The music is once again orgasmic.
4) I'm a lover of little details, and seeing Marisa use her broom to fly and each character having a unique special bar makes me smile.
5) The controls are going to be great. Obviously. I mean, it's Touhou.
6) It's Touhou
7) DJ Miko crew and Mama Byakuren family are my two favorite groups in all of the Touhou Universe. I'm ecstatic to see the character roster.
8.) Nice looking projectiles and effects, just like Hisoutensoku.


Seriously I could go on like this FOREVER.

[Sungho]

About Nitori, it was mentioned in a translation of a transcription of an radio interview of ZUN and is as reliable as the recorder's skills times the translator's accuracy.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Interview_on_Nae_Radio_(September_2009)
If you want to believe that this is a fake or some kind of error, I can't stop you.

I still don't understand why TasoFro put in stupid weathers like River Mist, Typhoon, and Mountain Vapor.
Do people hate weather because of these stupid weathers, or would they still hate it even if there weren't stupid weathers?

About any new game, 'You wouldn't know it's good medicine or not unless you drank it for yourself'.
But it will need some options that lets the game use less CPU or something.

So when would the full game be released? Somewhere around next winter?

[shadowbringer]

I hate all the random ''OMAIGAWD I WANT MIMA TO COME BACK'' or ''She's totally going to appear for x reasons'' when they hardly make sense. That's my opinion. Now for some facts, if Mima was to come back, it would be pretty weird; I'm not talking about continuity (haha, in Touhou?), I'm talking about how she'll hardly have a distinct personality. When Marisa turned into Windows Marisa, she took a few Mima-ish things with her. If Mima was to come back, unless ZUN changes her (which defeats the purpose of having Mima, yes?), she'll feel like a Marisa knock-off.
Nitori wasn't mentionned for th123, Mokou and Kaguya were. And I think Wriggle was a very brief thought or something, but I'm really not sure.

Marisa takes a few everything with her (xmas tree shots from SoEW's Reimu in EoSD, non-directional laser, master spark, skittles). Mima's determinatorness may have been assimilated by Marisa, but not her boastful and self-confident (Marisa at times acknowledges and exposes her limitations, for example before fighting the Prismriver sisters, by saying something like "a magician of my level could never open this gate", and by trying to convince Yorihime to play the spellcard game in SSiB), expert-looking personality, nor Mima's background history. Marisa doesn't even need to fill the role of her apprentice, nowadays.

In my opinion, no one else so far has come so close to the image of a western wizard or oriental magician as Mima did.

Anyway, so I don't stray too far from the topic, is anyone else disappointed by the whole ''floating instead of flying'' thing? I liked Arcana Heart for the fast-paced movements and ability to quickly go from one place to another in a split-second, and this one just seems like a dash makes you cross a tenth of the stage.

I'm disappointed by the system, so far (pacing, melee options, lack of interesting mechanics/customization/character gameplays).

[Amraphenson]

Gotta wait til the demo til I say anything more, but yeah a little worried so far.

[Ikari]

Like everyone else, I'm worried, but refuse to actually make a real judgment until I tried it. I'm not trying to call it the worse game ever, just badly presented so far. (Because I know the video is literally a crumb of the pie that game is)

About Nitori, it was mentioned in a translation of a transcription of an radio interview of ZUN and is as reliable as the recorder's skills times the translator's accuracy.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Interview_on_Nae_Radio_(September_2009)
If you want to believe that this is a fake or some kind of error, I can't stop you.

Oooh, that's where the Wriggle thing is from as well! And I'm not trying to deny the Nitori thing; That's a logical and probably real source. I mean, it's hard to believe a statement when it starts with ''I heard a rumor that'' and ends with ''not sure where I heard it though'', no? Besides, it's not like Nitori randomly popped out, she was a ''playable'' character in SA too.

...Come to think of it, they're all playable in Hisoutensoku save for her. Heh.

Marisa takes a few everything with her (xmas tree shots from SoEW's Reimu in EoSD, non-directional laser, master spark, skittles). Mima's determinatorness may have been assimilated by Marisa, but not her boastful and self-confident (Marisa at times acknowledges and exposes her limitations, for example before fighting the Prismriver sisters, by saying something like "a magician of my level could never open this gate", and by trying to convince Yorihime to play the spellcard game in SSiB), expert-looking personality, nor Mima's background history. Marisa doesn't even need to fill the role of her apprentice, nowadays.

In my opinion, no one else so far has come so close to the image of a western wizard or oriental magician as Mima did.

You make a compelling argument. Sorry for my reactions toward Mima, I've grown sick of all the times where some fans are randomly disappointed that Mima didn't appear or hoping she'll be playable. In my opinion, if Mima doesn't appear, it's perfectly normal, and if she does, it's cool! Unlike a handful of Mima lovers who act like her not appearing is ''trolling'' and that her appearance is only logical. I know it's not the case for many Mima fans, but it's kind of like the ''Sakuya is a lunarian!'' thing, it's seemingly everywhere.

[game2011]

Talking about PC-98 characters, I would like to see Sariel as she's an Angel.
ZUN could also troll us and put the unnamed christian girl from Dolls in Pseudo Paradise's cover.  :3

To be precise, she's a seraphim, as they have six wings, while angels don't have wings.  Two-winged angels are made up by people, as nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that they have wings, only seraphims and cherubims.

[Savory]

We had this derail four pages back, and it'd be oh so super swell if we didn't have to go through this again.

My bad. It's my fault. I just cringe whenever someone goes "ZUN IS TROLLING LOL". But in any case, I'll change the topic to something else.

I could actually see Nitori as a playable character considering her (ambiguous) relationship with Marisa. And with Marisa being in and not belonging to any religious faction, it might...make sense?

[Drake]

Why all the Mima talk? After searching the thread I'm quite surprised nobody's mentioned 東方心綺楼: 神綺

[Starxsword]

I guess UFO taught them that Shinki is not likely to appear, even if her name is in this game.

[Sungho]

Kilgamayan mentioned it in the first page. I deemed that it was unworthy to pursue such meaningless subjects.

And I'm sorry about the confusion about Nitori.
It's one of my bad habits to make words seem to carry hidden meanings, even if it actually doesn't.

Let's see.
th075 basically had everyone in th08, plus Patchouli and a new character.
th105 added Reisen, Aya, Komachi, and two new characters.
th123 added Sanae, Cirno, Utsuho, Suwako, and added back Meiling.

Based on this, one can half-expect Shou and Futo to appear.
It's really getting tough to guess, there are around 70 characters to choose from.

[Drake]

Kilgamayan mentioned it in the first page. I deemed that it was unworthy to pursue such meaningless subjects.

The difference is that Kilga was just talking about Shinkirou = Shinki (which firstly, doesn't even necessarily have to have the same kanji as Shinki, but it does), whereas every main game so far and some others have one kanji in at least one character's name in the title of the game. If Shinki ends up in the game by some miracle then this would be massive foreshadowing.

[EthanSilver]

Like everyone else, I'm worried, but refuse to actually make a real judgment until I tried it.

Like some have expressed, I'm a bit concerned with the whole "100% aerial combat" approach the game has. Replacing jumping mechanics with free (semi-free?) movement makes it feel more like a beat 'em up (eg, Final Fight) than a fighting game to me. But ^^^ this always hold true: until a demo is released and we can see for ourselves how things handle, how good or how bad it will be or what the game will feel like is just speculation and nothing else.

Meh. The way I see it, it'd get redundant having roughly the same mechanics and characters every game. Something new could be good. I'm just hoping most of the usual things to expect from fighting game mechanics won't be dropped to focus on just outmaneuvering your opponent, or that the transition won't be too alienating.

(Also, Momiji as a character. Seriously, that poor pup needs her place in the sun at some point - after all, mad science has proven she's the superior choice for a fighting game character. Katsugeki Kidan-style. )

[Imosa]

@Ikari: I don't really care if your bashing the game or what but if you think there was an instance where any character was going through a "seizure" I'd like to see it.

[Ikari]

@Ikari: I don't really care if your bashing the game or what but if you think there was an instance where any character was going through a "seizure" I'd like to see it.

Let's just say I'm wrong already and get over that.

[KFCbbQ]

Why all the Mima talk? After searching the thread I'm quite surprised nobody's mentioned 東方心綺楼: 神綺

In Japanese isn't 心 pronounced the same way as 神 as well?

[Drake]

yes, that's why it's "touhou shinkirou" which i just finished mentioning, but that's not the point

東方紅魔郷 : 紅美鈴
東方妖々夢 : 魂魄妖夢 (and 西行寺幽々子 has a kanji repetition)
東方萃夢想 : 伊吹萃香
東方永夜抄 : 八意永琳 and 蓬莱山輝夜
東方花映塚 : 四季映姫 and 小野塚小町
東方文花帖 : 射命丸文
東方風神録 : 東風谷早苗 and 八坂神奈子
東方地霊殿 : 古明地 and 霊烏路空
東方星蓮船 : 寅丸星 and 聖白蓮
東方神霊廟 : 豊聡耳神子
This follows throughout PC98 as well, with the exception of HRtP, except 東方靈異伝 and 博麗靈夢 (old writing of Reimu) both use the old kanji 靈.

The main reason I wouldn't grab onto this is because neither SWR nor Soku followed this, and 13.5 isn't a main game either. But even Mystic Square (東方怪綺談) got its namesake kanji 綺 from Shinki.

[Messiah]

Obviously, it's about Mima's daughter :V

[Ikari]

Obviously, it's about Mima's daughter :V

I wonder, do vengeful spirits lay eggs or give birth?

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Also, Momiji as a character.

I totally support that. In fact, I was even wondering how her stage would be if she was really in the game. So, I'd like if it was the waterfall of nine-heavens. The scenario would be something like this (But far more beautiful):



It's really easy to make Momiji a fighting character anyway, because of her sword. So, it's fitting for physical combat.

[Imosa]

Like some have expressed, I'm a bit concerned with the whole "100% aerial combat" approach the game has. Replacing jumping mechanics with free (semi-free?) movement makes it feel more like a beat 'em up (eg, Final Fight) than a fighting game to me.

If my idea is right then the jumping mechanic hasn't been replaced at all. It's just that now there's also a dive mechanic which works just like the jump mechanic except it goes down instead of up and while there is no ceiling there is a floor.

[Vyrien]

I wonder, do vengeful spirits lay eggs or give birth?

They probably divide in two like bacteria and produce a couple of genetically identical vengeful spirits.

I want to see Yuuka in this game, although it certainly won't happen.