東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[Gpop]

Amra, you need to really calm down because you honestly seem to be offended with anyone questioning your thoughts on tier lists

Tier lists are subjective in the end because of the experience people has with each character. Suwako is considered low tier because she's really hard to use and hasn't been explored to its full potential, while Sakuya is pretty easy to use (in my own experience) so a lot of people tend to stick with her over others.

You can ask the American community whatever they want, but that doesn't represent the Japanese community and how they play the game itself. Let's take Thor fro MvC3 as an example. Here they think he's a pretty damn low tier character with just high health. But if you see the Japanese community a lot of them USE Thor as think of him as a pretty good character. The Japanese mentality of fighting games are pretty different from the American view. And remember when Vergil was thought to be only okay at first when the game first came out? Japan ALREADY knew Vergil was top tier at the start, and it took the West a few months before they realized this (when they went with Wesker first, then Zero, then Spencer, and finally Vergil).

Sure I can definitely agree with Sakuya being top tier for sure. She's really simple to use, but this does NOT take away from the fact that Suwako is terrible and an unplayable character against her. AGEOJOE was a great example of use low tier characters (and Frank West) and winning AN ENTIRE MAJOR TOURNAMENT WITH THEM because they all thought they were low tier.

Even Hsien-ko is still pretty good. She has one of the best assists in the game with her super armor hyper. Seriously, it's so broken :V And Phoenix Wright is good too, look at Lythero and his videos with him. He just takes a lot of time to learn, but he can kill almost every character with one combo in turnabout mode.

Anyways ENOUGH about tier lists okay? This kind of stuff is what brings players apart and discourages players to ever TOUCH other potential characters and be good with them, and encourages "over-saturation" (aka Wesker over-saturation when in the end everyone knew how to counter him). Just let people be, tier lists are just subjective that a lot of people feel are good because of their own personal experience. You just need to put them to their full potential and I would believe Suwako hasn't been explored too much yet because of this. I believe to ignore tier lists entirely and just play my characters (which is why I play Reimu or Suika main :V)

EDIT: Oh yeah, remember when pre-2012 Yun (who was ridiculously "top tier") won EVO 2011? Neither did I

[Suikama]

tires don exits

[Amraphenson]

If I sound offended, then sorry about that (because I am actually a little offended that no one's actually listening to me beyond the 'wah tiers'), but what I'm trying to point out here is that the Hisoutensoku tiers are only a part of the problem, and considering how bad the matchups are in Soku that's saying a lot.. Marvel's fine, Thor's fine, all that's fine, but Soku isn't. Soku is where a matchup between a B-tier character and a F-tier character is statistically worse than an S and an F (which is what I'm trying to emphasize here, not the Sakuya/Suwako matchup because that's nothing special, Sakuya has lots of 70/30 matchups). Soku is a game that's schizophrenically swapping between wanting to stay in neutral/zoning forever and yet at the same time completely ignoring neutral and zoning because of the same mechanics it's trying to use to promote it. Soku is a game where you can get completely screwed over by chance regardless of what character you're playing and there's nothing you can do about it beyond picking a character that can abuse weather.

I'm a firm believer in tier lists, because the only way you couldn't have tiers is if you weren't playing a fighting game (even when Street Fighter only had Ryu the left Ryu was statistically better because people were just used to those inputs), but that's not the only problem here. What I'm trying to say is that, not just character/tier wise, not just system wise, and not just concept wise, but ON A WHOLE, Soku is badly put together, and that history of it being bad is :not: giving me high hopes for this game. There were a bunch of neat ideas they added to it that all could've been great, but in the end they were all subpar and ended up bogging down each other.

[Gpop]

Serious question: Are you more of an IaMP player?

[Amraphenson]

I never got into IaMP, sadly, and I'm pretty aware that was a neat game. If they went back to simple stuff like that for Hopeless, I think they could make a great game that could honestly bring in people to Touhou because it's a great game on its own merits, much like how Melty Blood has benefited Tsukihime.

[Tiamat]

Honestly, it's pretty rare for characters to not have been explored to their full potential (or close enough, as far as is possible for us imperfect humans to achieve) for a game as old as 'soku.   There are quite a few dedicated Suwako players out there who have had years to hone their art and gameplay with her. At this point, most tricks and strategies that exist have likely been discovered by now and it'd probably require inhuman levels of skill, reflex, and precision for the current top Suwako players to get any better with her than they are, already, yet they apparently still lose to Youmu, Sakuya, and other players that are generally considered not-very-good Youmu, Sakuya, and whatever players.

Me personally, I always thought the Touhou fighting games were meant to be more for the fun boss-rush 1P modes with the 2P competitive scene as kinda an afterthought. There aren't many other fighting games that focus on story as much as the Touhou fighting games, and there are absolutely NO other fighting games that focus on making unique one player match ups as the Touhou fighting games (where story-mode computer characters bust out all sorts of zany spell cards that you need to come up with the right strategies to counter).  Touhou has always been a very story and spell-card focused series, so I figured the fighting series was more of the same (hence the focus on those instead of competitiveness).

[Tengukami]

I'm a firm believer in tier lists, because the only way you couldn't have tiers is if you weren't playing a fighting game (even when Street Fighter only had Ryu the left Ryu was statistically better because people were just used to those inputs), but that's not the only problem here. What I'm trying to say is that, not just character/tier wise, not just system wise, and not just concept wise, but ON A WHOLE, Soku is badly put together, and that history of it being bad is :not: giving me high hopes for this game.

What you've been saying, repeatedly, is that you think tier lists are important ... just because you say so, pretty much.

Gpop very astutely points out that match-ups differ depending on who's actually controlling the players, and that's a real-world, relatable opinion. I'd add that his point that tier lists more or less mean whole sections of the cast are going to be ignored for all the wrong reasons is a very good point. He's even provided video evidence to this effect.

So we've got Point/Counterpoint. The dead horse is beaten. I'm sure everyone in this thread is now very much aware that Amra thinks tiers are important. Can we move on now?

[Zil]

What you've been saying, repeatedly, is that you think tier lists are important ... just because you say so, pretty much.

I don't think it's right to just dismiss what he's been saying like that. He has, in fact, given examples of characters having unfair advantages over each other. It's really an inevitable fact that some characters will be better than others. Not just in fighting games, but in almost anything competitive, from racing games to trading cards. Personally I'd say that the relevance of tiers is almost unarguable.

In any event, what I'm trying to say is that balance is a real issue in these games, and the discussion so far about it has been pretty interesting, in my opinion. More so than speculating about who will be included, etc.

[shadowbringer]

one important thing to know: Tiers don't matter for non-advanced players, because the tiers are made with advanced (high level) players in mind, who can make better use of the characters' resources than average players. Thus, tiers are objectively inaccurate for said average players, and so, there's no reason for said average players to worry about tiers. But still, for the more advanced players, high imbalance can destroy the game's depth (and thus, the fun) and replay value, or take out a large part of it.

[Tengukami]

I don't think it's right to just dismiss what he's been saying like that. He has, in fact, given examples of characters having unfair advantages over each other.

My point wasn't regarding whether or not they exist, but whether or not they're important.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Yeah, I mean, to Hell with competitive rankings, I just want to see a UFO cast member in one of the brawlers for once this time.

I will never understand you competitive guys. I think there's only so far one can tweak the balance for a fighting game and beyond that part it comes across as a bit obsessive.

If I wanted competitive balance I'd join a judo club, or play chess. :V

[Ikari]

So, uh, a bit out of the tier subject thing...

I really hope the new game won't have different mechanics (As in, Attack, Special1, Special2, Inputs, blablabla) because I thought Hisoutensoku was awesome for that; I didn't need to memorize a bazillion combinations of input to actually do good combos and different attacks. I suck at fighting games, yet love them, so I end up finding one attack and spamming it. (Which I am very ashamed of)

IaMP had great mechanics too, so I'm expecting great things~

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

I agree with Alliterator. I don't even care about tiers neither... best thing for me to do is playing the games just for fun, while taking it easy and using my dearest characters.

I'm never good on fighting games for that matter... except if you count the -smash series. I just like mashin' buttons and etc, hoping to see awesome shiny stuff happening on the screen :V

Tourneyfags for me are too annoying, they ruin all of the purpose of the fun. It's also just so nerdy... hence why I stay far from competitive battling. VEEEERY far from it.

Now, MOVING ON (like Tengukami said)

I'm really impressed with the graphics of the game so far... and I really enjoyed the visual of the Hakurei Shrine stage. It's really beautiful and colorful... so... I can't wait to see the beauty of  the other stages as well, instead of that pixelated stuff we got from the previous fighters.

Some stages I'd like to see are:

Garden of Sun: I think it'd be really cool to see those lovely, dear sunflowers all over the place. With dragonflies floating over them and all... it'd be an awesome scene to watch.

Muenzuka: Because I love those crimson spider-lilies. The colors are really vibrant and powerful.

Bamboo Forest of Lost: I also really like bamboo forests, they bring a really oriental/japanese atmosphere.

Hakugyokurou: Cherry blossom trees. Nuff said.

Pand?monium: As much as I'm aware that the chances of this place being in the game are close to zero, I'd really like to see the crystal fortress at full HI-RES glory. I was imagining something like this:

[Amraphenson]

I know a lot of people that would take offense to the term 'tourneyfag'. :\
stage wise I have a feeling it's going to be three stages or something per major faction in the game, then random stages like Garden of the Sun.

[Clarste]

Isn't it traditional to just have one stage per character? Also associated with their theme music.

[Savory]

Hmm...even with a plot like this, I feel it won't be easy to guess most of the roster. Who's to say we won't get unexpected characters siding with a faction?

Here's a good example. Say Suika is in and sides with Reimu. Perhaps Yuugi might join as well to support Suika.

Another example. Remilia might want in on the "fun" as well (possibly out of boredom) and have Sakuya, Meiling and Patchouli fight on her behalf.

It could either be a straight, predictable story or a tale with a winding path that could lead anywhere.

[Ikari]

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody pretty much proved that no matter what it looks like at first, you'll just end up getting some random albeit popular characters thrown at you.

*Looks at Reisen and Aya*

Oh and that even though you may think major characters will appear, they probably won't, because they'll be using their underlings. Y'know, I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the game doesn't even include Miko or Byakuren. I'll be super pissed, but not surprised.

Hmm...even with a plot like this, I feel it won't be easy to guess most of the roster. Who's to say we won't get unexpected characters siding with a faction?

God knows 99 % of Gensokyo's population doesn't give a damn about the incidents and only end up participating because they're bored, making most rosters completely unpredictable. So I completely agree with you.

[Starxsword]

Byakuren, Miko, and Sanae are very likely to appear. I have high confidence in them appearing.

Everyone else though, it is hard to tell. It could be anyone really, but my guess is that Youmu seems likely to appear. There would almost definitely be a new character.

[cuc]

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody pretty much proved that no matter what it looks like at first, you'll just end up getting some random albeit popular characters thrown at you.

*Looks at Reisen and Aya*

Reisen is IN's Stage 5 boss, aka the servant character of the Eientei faction, aka protagonist equivalent. It makes perfect sense for her to appear as the IN/Eientei representative for this reason alone.

In plot terms, Reisen connects SWR with the Vignettes of Ephemeral Moon storyline, which are two stories with a lot of parallels, and also taking place very near to each other.

Aya is a scout of the youkai mountain. People are going up and down the youkai mountain without tengu permission. Surely at least one tengu would try to stop them, if only to put up a token resistance?

[Ikari]

In plot terms, Reisen connects SWR with the Vignettes of Ephemeral Moon storyline, which are two stories with a lot of parallels, and also taking place very near to each other.

Aya is a scout of the youkai mountain. People are going up and down the youkai mountain without tengu permission. Surely at least one tengu would try to stop them, if only to put up a token resistance?

Yeah, Aya was related to the story directly, hell, she's one of the only character that didn't just beat up people because it's totally how you find a criminal. But the only reason she appeared was because people climbed Youkai Mountain. Aside from that, she has no reason to be there. She's comparable to a boulder, an obstacle.

But for Reisen? It's still pretty far-fetched. Even if it was supposed to make parallels, it barely did any. Reisen's presence in the story was pretty much her being the only sane one of the group and getting beaten up by (and beating up too) a bunch of people who just randomly fought each other because, hey, you! I bet you're DAH CRIMINAL!

I mean, it's kind of obvious SWR pokes at PoV a lot, taking Reisen (first time playable), Aya (first appearance) and Komachi (first apearance) in the game, even though it's meant to be ''Touhou 10.5'', it doesn't present any MoF character at all, all the way until UNL where Sanae appears, and then, CIRNO. Let's be honest, Cirno in that game was pure fanservice. And that's my point; Predicting the roster is pretty much for fun rather than actually aiming to be right because god knows what random plot twist will show up, forcing a character to appear?

[Amraphenson]

just keeep hyping me up for random yamame people. keep at it.

[AnonymousPondScum]

I don't want to see faith vs faith

I want to see SPIDER VERSUS INSECT

YAMAME VS WRIGGLE

MAKE IT HAPPEN ZUN

[iK]

Tier Lists don't matter for advanced players either. Players at that level can keep in mind what their personal hard matchups are already, being you know, human beings capable of memory capacity and being in posesion of the ability to learn from mistakes and pick up patterns ("Oh, I seem to always lose against Hazama when I'm Tager, and nothing I've explored seems to make the match any easier; I should look out for Hazamas and find some new strategy or character to deal with this problem"). You'll never see a GF winner saying anything like "Yeah, I thought for sure I was going to lose, but then I remembered that he was using a low tier character! Thanks to that wonderful tier list, I was able to take the set!"


Other topics

I really would like to see some Suika Kasen Yuugi oni party time in this game. Hell, perhaps the ever-elusive fourth diva will make an appearance stirring up this approval business?

[Maiden Synnae ミ☆]

Oh and that even though you may think major characters will appear, they probably won't, because they'll be using their underlings. Y'know, I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the game doesn't even include Miko or Byakuren. I'll be super pissed, but not surprised.

THIS! Exactly my thoughts... there's a huge chance we'll only be getting Sanae, Futo and Murasa, maybe. But seriously... If that really happens then I swear I'll throw a can of beer at zun's head because I've had enough of his trollage already. He likes to keep hinting us about the appearance of a character due to the circumstances and atmosphere of the game in question, but then, in the end, said character doesn't appear at all (take what happened with the fanbase's expectations about Mima's return on TD for example).

I'm gonna get really pissed off as well because that's by far Byakuren, Miko, and Kanako's greatest chances of getting playable, and if they miss this opportunity now, then I'm pretty sure it won't ever happen in the future, at all.

Also I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE RELEVANT TO THE PLOT OR NOT, I WANT MY MIMA, SHINKI, YUUKA AND YUMEMI ON THE GAME BECAUSE THEY'RE AWESOME PC-98 FINAL BOSSES! :getdown:

[cuc]

SWR started its life as Touhou 9.8, and only became Touhou 10.5 later. It was never intended to have anything to do with Moriya Shrine, and for all we know, ZUN might have already written most of the story before he made MoF.

>Cirno
"ZUN never cares about fan opinions that much", or more accurately "ZUN would never allow his creative decisions to be swayed by the fandom", should be a mantra we hear more often. ZUN likes Cirno; he and Tasofro thought she presented interesting game design opportunities. These are enough reasons.

Some characters are popular despite the author's preference, and some are popular because of it. I think Cirno is more of the latter category.

[Savory]

But seriously... If that really happens then I swear I'll throw a can of beer at zun's head because I've had enough of his trollage already. He likes to keep hinting us about the appearance of a character due to the circumstances and atmosphere of the game in question, but then, in the end, said character doesn't appear at all (take what happened with the fanbase's expectations about Mima's return on TD for example).

Okay, I have to address this, because it gets on my nerves.

Why do people state that ZUN is "trolling" because he doesn't follow through to their expectations? Whether or not the atmosphere gives a hint is irrelevant. It's unfair when you hype yourself up for nothing only to get angry with ZUN when you don't get what you want.  Like your example with Mima. That was a 50/50. When it was mentioned that "a certain character was returning", it could have meant a new character who used to be active or a character we know who has been out of commission for a while. Such a phrase can be interpreted in diverse ways.

When fans speculate about something or have their own ten desires about what they want, but find that it's something else, it's not ZUN's fault; it's everyone getting their hopes up to the point where things go out of control. So can we please stop with the "ZUN IS TROLLING LOL" comments already? The meaning of the "word" has lost its flavor.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Okay, I have to address this, because it gets on my nerves.

Why do people state that ZUN is "trolling" because he doesn't follow through to their expectations? Whether or not the atmosphere gives a hint is irrelevant. It's unfair when you hype yourself up for nothing only to get angry with ZUN when you don't get what you want.  Like your example with Mima. That was a 50/50. When it was mentioned that "a certain character was returning", it could have meant a new character who used to be active or a character we know who has been out of commission for a while. Such a phrase can be interpreted in diverse ways.

When fans speculate about something or have their own ten desires about what they want, but find that it's something else, it's not ZUN's fault; it's everyone getting their hopes up to the point where things go out of control. So can we please stop with the "ZUN IS TROLLING LOL" comments already? The meaning of the "word" has lost its flavor.

We get annoyed because our instinctive thought is "Who else could it be?"

[Clarste]

For the record, I never once considered that ZUN would actually put Mima in TD. That always felt like fans reaching for straws. It's basically been a running joke every time a new game comes out. Although Forbidden Scrollery opens up the door in an interesting fashion...

Anyway, while the basic standard has always been to favor servants over bosses (ie: Youmu, Sakuya and Sanae are more likely to be playable than Yuyuko, Remilia and Kanako), it's important to realize the other criteria that they all fit into. Humans. Or half-humans. That's... basically it. Humans are the main characters of this series about youkai. You might say it's racist or something, but it's written into the plot. Youkai cause incidents, and humans resolve them (sometimes with youkai assistance).

So what does this mean for HM? Well, mostly it applies to Miko and Byakuren. Bykauren has no human servants, nor is she human herself. Her entire faction consists of youkai. Therefore, no one really has any priority over her to act as her agent. I guess you could also say she's a former human, but personally I think that's not something ZUN would ever emphasize. Likewise, the Miko faction contains no token humans to act as agents. You could say that Futo is closer to humans than any of the youkai, but the same logic applies to Miko. Miko also sort of identifies as human, or as least as a leader of humans. So that's why I think the old pattern of bosses sending "agents" isn't going to continue. Frankly, it hasn't really been the case since MoF. SA broke the pattern of the final boss being the one in charge, and after that the minions has been deemphasized in favor of characterizing the bosses more.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Bykauren has no human servants, nor is she human herself.

Nyet! Ichirin is...Sorta human. She's not a *born* youkai like the rest of the Myouren crew, and she's not a magician. OTOH she seems one of a kind so I have no idea how much water her exception holds. \o/

[Clarste]

Nyet! Ichirin is...Sorta human. She's not a *born* youkai like the rest of the Myouren crew, and she's not a magician. OTOH she seems one of a kind so I have no idea how much water her exception holds. \o/

Murasa's also a former human, in that she's a ghost of a human. Former humans are still youkai. Yuyuko fills the youkai meter up to full. In a more general sense, humans becoming monsters is a pretty common origin in horror stories. Ichirin's particular circumstances are unique, but "things becoming youkai" is universal. Very few things are born as youkai, actually. Most start as animals or objects.