Touhou doujins outnumber all others in Japan

[Bias Bus]

Erebus, with all due respect, you seem lately to be making it your personal mission to be sure everyone is aware of your general dissatisfaction with the games. If you're wondering if anyone's caught on, I can assure you, we have.

I believe the popularity of the games will probably fade. I'd say it's a near certainty. It is a certainty that the series will one day stop. I'm not really sure what this changes though. One day the person you love the most will die. And so you enjoy the time you have with them now.

I'm not saying to be quiet about what you don't like about the games, of course. Just that you lately seem to be venting and repeating yourself when it comes to this subject is all.

Yeah, you're like Ruro was with Nue a while back. And, like with her, we do not take issue with the fact that you don't like some parts of it (or at least I don't -- I mean, I have my fare share of bones to pick), just with the fact that you seem to bring it up in every thread you post in at TARC.

Yeah I am pretty much venting my frustrations with the seires (said frustration is something that's accumalated over the course of me playing the games and seeing them for what they really are). I may not be the fan I used to be, but I just can't see how people can deal with the same thing over and over and over again. It annoys me to no bounds to see a series with such potential be wasted with such a redundant factor crammed into it.

How can I stay interested in Touhou if it's not giving me something interesting to look at? I want to fully enjoy it as everyone of you do, but it's these factors that keep me from doing so.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Yes, but broadly speaking, this is your problem. Lord knows I sympathize with the "gods, will you just do SOMETHING different already!" point of view, but I don't go to Wings of Yuri or some theoretical "The 'Alice is tsundere for Marisa appreciation thread" and constantly tell them I think it sucks.

[Tengukami]

Yeah I am pretty much venting my frustrations with the seires (said frustration is something that's accumalated over the course of me playing the games and seeing them for what they really are). I may not be the fan I used to be, but I just can't see how people can deal with the same thing over and over and over again. It annoys me to no bounds to see a series with such potential be wasted with such a redundant factor crammed into it.

How can I stay interested in Touhou if it's not giving me something interesting to look at? I want to fully enjoy it as everyone of you do, but it's these factors that keep me from doing so.

I'm not trying to change your mind about anything, of course. You're entitled to your opinion. I was just saying that we get it already: Erebus is bored silly with Touhou.

But if you want, I'd say that it's also a matter of what you choose to focus on. Where you see 6 stages of vertical scrolling followed by a tea party, I see new characters, new music, new point systems, new bullets, new strategies and so on. Again, not telling you to change your mind, but since you asked, there it is.

For example, I think Double Spoiler was a real step forward, personally. Rather than it just being Shoot the Bullet Part Deux, there's a neat little puzzle game aspect added to it. It's not a game you need to play in a straight line, either - unlock a few stages of a level here, move on, come back later and try them again. The contrasting strengths and weaknesses between the unlocked player and the original player are pretty interesting, too.

ZUN is still a young man, and the fandom for his games is anything but stagnating. He will always be trying new things and going in new directions. The core principles of the games might stay the same, or they might not, but ZUN seems like a guy who bores easily, to listen to or read his interviews anyway. I wouldn't expect him to revisit EoSD, for example.

I'm not going to tell you how to look at Touhou or that your opinions are wrong. Everyone has individual tastes. But there's change going on from game to game, there is an evolution happening; just maybe not to the extent that you'd like. I was just trying to say that you've kinda ... repeated yourself many different times on this topic. That's all.

(Personally, on my wish list is something I love about Imperishable Night - the fork in the road in Stage 5. Wouldn't it be great if he created more intersections in a game? That I'd love to see. And maybe he'll go there again, who knows?)

[OkashiiKisei]

(Personally, on my wish list is something I love about Imperishable Night - the fork in the road in Stage 5. Wouldn't it be great if he created more intersections in a game? That I'd love to see. And maybe he'll go there again, who knows?)

Maybe two intersections or something like that? Or an intersection early on in the game that may lead to a drastically different storyline and bosses? That would be pretty neat, actually. :3

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

You mean "different storyline" as in "same source of conflict, but they go about it differently", or "different storyline" as "different source of conflict and results"?

[Bias Bus]

Yes, I'd like to see that too. This could make for a larger game, more characters and basically something that is a little different from the norm. Maybe add somethings in one route you can't see in the other, like say a character exclusive to that route or a storyline that takes a turn that's different from the normal route?

Metal Slug 3 comes to mind when I think of something like this (albeit in less of a story oriented way and more in a 'choose this way to get some new scenery and face new enemies that can kill you in 2 seconds).

[orinrin]

Always save before a route split.


Oh wait.

[OkashiiKisei]

You mean "different storyline" as in "same source of conflict, but they go about it differently", or "different storyline" as "different source of conflict and results"?

Rather that, around stage 3 or so, that you can pick which path you take, and then you fight a completely different enemy depending on your path. Like, there is a war between two factions, and both aren't really the good guy or the bad guy. You can either go beat up faction 1 (stage 4A, 5A and 6A) or faction 2 (stage 4B, 5B and 6B). Each has completely different bosses and result in a completely different enemy. The faction that doesn't get beat up by you wins this 'war', and tells you that everyone will be alright. However, in either ending there is a small indication that it will just start over again soon, or that the faction that won will bring major changes/chaos to Gensokyo. In the Extra Stage you will find the one who caused this feud, and by beating him/her up you get the two factions to stop fighting and come at peace. That way Gensokyo isn't in danger anymore!

Yes, I'd like to see that too. This could make for a larger game, more characters and basically something that is a little different from the norm. Maybe add somethings in one route you can't see in the other, like say a character exclusive to that route or a storyline that takes a turn that's different from the normal route?

Metal Slug 3 comes to mind when I think of something like this (albeit in less of a story oriented way and more in a 'choose this way to get some new scenery and face new enemies that can kill you in 2 seconds).

Exactly, but with different endings, like in Sonic Adventure 2. The Extra Stage will function as the True/Last Story.

[E-Nazrin]

Tengukami and N-Forza have the right of it.

It's worth noting that there are two possible camps for what can happen when there's a significant change to a series, if I may invoke TV Tropes: They Changed It, Now It Sucks vs. the "gods, will you just do SOMETHING different already!" bit Muffin pointed out. Either way it's a risk, but to be fair, you probably have fewer existing fans to please in the latter camp, most of the time.

But I think the best way to handle this risk once you have a basic formula that works is to only play with little things in the main series itself, but do some branching out in the meantime to experiment with bigger changes in spinoff series/games and see what the response is. That way, your main series is less likely to get directly tanked/tarnished by an over-changed (or badly-changed) entry, while it gives you some weight to start off other ideas with.

Via the N.5 games, I think this is what ZUN's BEEN doing, by trying out (endorsing?) a danmaku-based fighting game mini-series and apparently getting industry recognition for the innovations of Shoot the Bullet. The changes in the main series are mild (but existent) aside from a new set of characters and music and slowly shifting styles, but he's still playing around with the spinoffs. And one of the big benefits of a strong fandom with relatively free reign is that fan creations can cover an even broader range of gameplay and styles than a single individual or studio can hope to achieve - if you like the characters and/or music and/or whatever, but don't care much for the official games, then keep an eye out for other ways to capitalize on what you like. Origins are important, but not the be-all-end-all.

What was I saying again?

[Iced Fairy]

On a different note...  I wonder how much of this is due to the weakening of the anime/manga market in general?  I wonder how many of the doujin writers looked around, saw nothing they liked except Touhou and just went for it?

In addition, Touhou is pretty much easy mode for fanworks.  Weak canon, loads of characters, and self contained storylines.  Toss in a bit of bandwagon and you could get pretty impressive numbers.

[Tengukami]

In addition, Touhou is pretty much easy mode for fanworks.  Weak canon, loads of characters, and self contained storylines.  Toss in a bit of bandwagon and you could get pretty impressive numbers.

Definitely. I never considered writing fanfiction until Touhou. It does seem to have all the right elements for translating into any number of mediums.

[N-Forza]

And thank (insert favirote gensokyo shrine here)'s god for that because I cant get enough of the music.

Litterally, I can't because I cant find where to get some of it  :V

Japan :V

[Sabino]

Definitely. I never considered writing fanfiction until Touhou. It does seem to have all the right elements for translating into any number of mediums.

Yeah, I guess that's for leaving open lots of loose ends. I find that those "loose-end settings" like Sakuya and Eirin, or life of Reseidents of SDM, and Moriya shrine before Gensoukyou really help stir up imagination.

Oh, and if nobody mentioned already; ZUN says OK to all those doujin stuff (except for the anime which he said to watch out of overdoing it)
as opposed to all those stuff out there saying "Copy right protected! Get too close and we'll have your fingers for breakfast!"
...Well, maybe that's over saying it, but the fact that ZUN has acceptance to doujin stuff is really important too.

[♛ Apher-Forte]

Yes I think it would be fun if we can get something like a bad end.

heck, if one wishes to, maybe if you defeated a boss with a continue you get to fight an alternative boss?
all these multi-faceted ideas changes the idea of Touhou for those who have had experience with it and wanted more.

Ideally, how is a story that doesn't end with a tea party but OMG TORTURE sounds like?

On a different note...  I wonder how much of this is due to the weakening of the anime/manga market in general?  I wonder how many of the doujin writers looked around, saw nothing they liked except Touhou and just went for it?

In addition, Touhou is pretty much easy mode for fanworks.  Weak canon, loads of characters, and self contained storylines.  Toss in a bit of bandwagon and you could get pretty impressive numbers.

I am sure most doujin artists in order to ensure their circle gets recognized quickly will bandwagon into the nearest most popular subject, in this case Touhou. A while ago it was Idolmaster, and a while longer before it was Futari Prettycure.

[Aisha]

When the Touhou fanbase begins to decline, I don't think there is anything ZUN could change to keep it afloat. He would need to something radical like come out with Touhou on a completely new medium, like a (good) anime. He mainly puts out Touhou through the games, but I don't think that most of the fanbase revolves around them as much as it does around particular elements from them, namely the characters and the music. Sure ZUN could change his games up; I've mentioned elsewhere that he should introduce an entirely different scoring system to change the gameplay completely; but that's only good for the fans who are mainly into the games. Once Reimu loses her appeal and fans realize that some other guy in another wing of Tokyou Big Sight can also create good music and draw lolis with funny hats, ZUN is fucked. Of course Touhou won't die, especially if ZUN keeps making the games for himself, but the fanbase won't be as big as it is now, and there won't be as much derivative work based on Touhou. It's inevitable that something else will come along.

This is heavy speculation (as was the above paragraph :V), but I'm also wondering if there's some growing resentment towards Touhou overall from doujin fans who aren't into Touhou. Going by what someone said about Touhou making up about half of all doujin (probably a huge overstatement), the present situation has to suck for non-Touhou doujin fans. I know that if I were in such a position I'd probably start reconsidering my hobbies and stop making regular trips to Comiket and doujin shops if all I saw was all Touhou, all the time. Applying this to the general doujin fanbase and I'm wondering if traffic to Comiket and doujin stores will decline, and we'll see second party (i.e., vendors) regulation of Touhou supply, perhaps opening the window for something else to take its place.

[Iced Fairy]

This is heavy speculation (as was the above paragraph :V), but I'm also wondering if there's some growing resentment towards Touhou overall from doujin fans who aren't into Touhou. Going by what someone said about Touhou making up about half of all doujin (probably a huge overstatement), the present situation has to suck for non-Touhou doujin fans. I know that if I were in such a position I'd probably start reconsidering my hobbies and stop making regular trips to Comiket and doujin shops if all I saw was all Touhou, all the time. Applying this to the general doujin fanbase and I'm wondering if traffic to Comiket and doujin stores will decline, and we'll see second party (i.e., vendors) regulation of Touhou supply, perhaps opening the window for something else to take its place.

Hm... I don't know if it'll be fan blowout, burnout or just a shift in the market as new anime and manga come out, but I'm certain the amount of Touhou doujin will drop rapidly at some point.  Those numbers aren't really sustainable.

However I also don't think it'll damage the fanbase too much.  Sure the numbers will decrease a bit, but I hardly think anyone would be crushed if next year there was only 2000 touhou doujins instead of 5000.  I personally think the doujin craze isn't totally linked to the fanbase as a whole.

[Sabino]

This is heavy speculation (as was the above paragraph :V), but I'm also wondering if there's some growing resentment towards Touhou overall from doujin fans who aren't into Touhou. Going by what someone said about Touhou making up about half of all doujin (probably a huge overstatement), the present situation has to suck for non-Touhou doujin fans. I know that if I were in such a position I'd probably start reconsidering my hobbies and stop making regular trips to Comiket and doujin shops if all I saw was all Touhou, all the time. Applying this to the general doujin fanbase and I'm wondering if traffic to Comiket and doujin stores will decline, and we'll see second party (i.e., vendors) regulation of Touhou supply, perhaps opening the window for something else to take its place.

The doujin craze of the comicket is partly there for people who want to get in to the field of manga, games, music, anime... etc.
Its just that there are also lots of people who come to enjoy that as a sort of party and lots of people who come to target that certain market.
For example, many of the manga artists that we see today has had experience making doujins in the Comick market.
A famous example is the artist Koge donbo.

So, even if the majority of the stuff is Touhou, it wouldn't matter for people that are actually there for the Comick market.
People who go there to get "entertained" or feeling like they're "guests" or "customers" or something.... THOSE are the people who shall get lost quickly.
(Or at least that's the ideal of these events. Same goes for the Hakurei Shrine Reitaisai)
Another thing to note is that doujin artist rarely do stuff like "only on series", and that's because they will put "what they want to make" in front of what'll sell.
(One of the doujin artists that I follow went from Leaf and Kea only all the way to making Gundam, Geass, and Touhou stuff. Mind you, I actually do go around to their home pages and check out what thay're up to. Been doing it for quite some while actually.)
So its not rare to find something like a Magical girl R18+ doujin beside a clean Touhou doujin. ... Or even a JOJO doujin artbook.
The only places where your speculations can take place are doujin shops, but the guys running those stores are quite smart too and they do a good job of balancing out what they have as well as checking out the market too.

When the fanbase will fall is most likely when ZUN decides to quit Touhou, and new stuff stops coming out. (Or ZUN dies from alcohol overdose)
-Which is unlikely to happen since he said that he makes the games for his reliever from actual work.-
or when it finishes going through its prime.  ...Although we have yet to decide when was the prime... or has the prime yet to come?

[Kinzo the Astro Curious]

Japan :V

Where the hell is ruro's headshot emote!! ah here it is-

 :colonveeplusalpha:

*dead*

[Firestorm29]

Yes I think it would be fun if we can get something like a bad end.

heck, if one wishes to, maybe if you defeated a boss with a continue you get to fight an alternative boss?
all these multi-faceted ideas changes the idea of Touhou for those who have had experience with it and wanted more.

Ideally, how is a story that doesn't end with a tea party but OMG TORTURE sounds like?I am sure most doujin artists in order to ensure their circle gets recognized quickly will bandwagon into the nearest most popular subject, in this case Touhou. A while ago it was Idolmaster, and a while longer before it was Futari Prettycure.

That got me thinking to R-Type Final with the 3 stage split depending on if you hit certain flags or not. I just hope if ZUN does do that, it won't be a Stage F-A.

[Bias Bus]

Yes I think it would be fun if we can get something like a bad end.

heck, if one wishes to, maybe if you defeated a boss with a continue you get to fight an alternative boss?
all these multi-faceted ideas changes the idea of Touhou for those who have had experience with it and wanted more.

Ideally, how is a story that doesn't end with a tea party but OMG TORTURE sounds like?

Yes that sounds very interesting indeed.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Where the hell is ruro's headshot emote!! ah here it is-

 :colonveeplusalpha:

*dead*

GAME OVER YEAAAHHHHHH

[Kinzo the Astro Curious]

GAME OVER NOOOOO ... noooo!

 :V

Spoiler:

extra lives bitch!