Author Topic: On fixing errors in learning to draw  (Read 30177 times)

Teewee

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On fixing errors in learning to draw
« on: June 09, 2012, 01:37:41 AM »
Sorry if this is an inappropriate topic to post  :ohdear: I've been trying to learn drawing for 4 years now, and hardly made any significant progress (considering the time I invested). I've had similar learning issues in the past, and I found the solution was to do things differently. But, I don't know how to in this case, so I made this topic for people to list what they've been doing to learn, so others can tell them what to do to expedite the process of learning to draw a variety of subjects in various angles.

Here's what I've been doing:
Drawing in a comfortable space in my room, with pencils and erasers specifically for sketching. It's on an okay drawing table.
Holding my pencils between my index and middle fingers, supported by my thumb. It made the process comfortable compared to the usual grip for writing words.
When I feel inclined, I listen to lyricless music that doesn't make me uneasy.
I avoid listening to words, since thats for the left brain (which wasn't made to draw).
When drawing hands, I go into the bathroom, do the pose I'm drawing, observe, then go back to my drawing desk to draw the hands. (it's not very effective tho)
I sit up straight.


I'd appreciate advice :)

 

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 01:47:59 AM »
When drawing hands, I go into the bathroom, do the pose I'm drawing, observe, then go back to my drawing desk to draw the hands. (it's not very effective tho)

To make things easier, you can probably take a picture of your hands in the mirror with your camera or your phone (if it has a camera). That way, you can spend less time running back and forth to the mirror to look at your hands. (And rely solely on memory at that.) You could even get a friend or family member to help pose their hand/body for you.

That being said, reference pictures are your best friends. Although I don't use them that much, they're really a good tool to use if you don't know how a body part is suppose to bend. (Or you want to draw a specific pose from a specific angle.)

You probably might have heard this many times before, but it's seriously encouraged for you to draw every single day. If you ever have periods of free time, you should probably sit down and doodle for a bit. You can draw things from observing what's going on outside/inside or pictures in magazines.

Hope this helps.
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 02:35:20 AM »
Well the main thing that has worked for me is to just do nothing but study my subject and draw.
- Dedicate time to drawing every day if you can.
- Reference pictures and visual aids will help you (I don't have one but I'm sure you can get a hand manikin in some art stores)
- Study objects, animals and people as much as you can.  (Ether through reference images or looking at live people)
- Do some 30 sec or 5 min (whatever short amount of time works) sketches
- Come out of your comfort zone and tackle those hard spots. 
- Do not draw the same things over and over again when they are easy for you to draw.
- With that said draw things you are having trouble with and want to get better at over and over again. The more you draw it the better you get.
- When studying the human body take in the different shapes and sizes of people. A lot of artists get 'same face/body' because they forget that people have more than one shape.  Same thing goes for animals and objects.
- Don't worry about things coming out perfect and learn when you just stop. I have ruined a lot of things because I felt that it wasn't perfect and needed something more. 
- Don't worry about developing a style. Don't spend time tying to copy another artists style
- Visual Research
- I also recommend art classes and life drawing sessions if you can find any in your area
- Criticism
- And continue to motivate yourself!

Theres also the Art tips thread  :V That I need to update Ahah.



pineyappled

Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 02:37:26 AM »

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 04:54:16 AM »
For learning how to draw human body proportions, I'd recommend the book "Drawing the Head and Figure" by  Jack Hamm. His other books are really good as well.

Also, as always, drawing little random things everyday really does help improve drawing skills.

Merp

Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 05:08:19 AM »
Andrew Loomis also has a neat little collection of books you should check out ~
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 05:33:35 AM »
Andrew Loomis also has a neat little collection of books you should check out ~
This is what Merp meant. Link removed. My bad.

I have this book I scanned months ago but it's a manga anatomy-like and you might brick me for that...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 05:37:08 AM by UsadaLettuce »

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 05:37:21 AM »
Might want to remove that link.
Oops, my bad. Removed it.

Merp

Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 06:08:48 AM »
Oops, my bad. Removed it.

I almost made that mistake as well lol, anyways i have some animu tutorial pages i grabbed from /jp/ draw thread a long time ago if u want some.
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 11:59:39 AM »
A nice way to go at it is to always have at least pen and paper with you and sketch things that piques your interest (or things that you find difficult doing). The more you try to do things over and over again, the more your body will remember doing it the next time you try drawing that particular part.

Works for me.

I've had problems with hands since forever but I guess I'm getting that hang of it.
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 04:44:00 AM »
Hmmm let me ask a question, do you guys are used to draw that Human Skeleton Sketch ( one circle for head, one for body, etc ) before draw some human character or not?
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2012, 05:01:31 AM »
Hmmm let me ask a question, do you guys are used to draw that Human Skeleton Sketch ( one circle for head, one for body, etc ) before draw some human character or not?
I'm one of those and it's a good practice for those who has a hard time on anatomy. I also add guidelines inside my human skeleton sketch in case I did something wrong.

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2012, 10:43:21 AM »
Here's what I've been doing:
Drawing in a comfortable space in my room, with pencils and erasers specifically for sketching. It's on an okay drawing table.
Holding my pencils between my index and middle fingers, supported by my thumb. It made the process comfortable compared to the usual grip for writing words.
When I feel inclined, I listen to lyricless music that doesn't make me uneasy.
I avoid listening to words, since thats for the left brain (which wasn't made to draw).
When drawing hands, I go into the bathroom, do the pose I'm drawing, observe, then go back to my drawing desk to draw the hands. (it's not very effective tho)
I sit up straight.

Not to appear rude or anything, but I think you're focusing more on the things surrounding the drawing part rather than on the.... act and spirit of drawing.
What I mean by the spirit of drawing is to get into your atmosphere for drawing. Technical issues like the way you hold your pen or the space where you draw are important to be able to comfortably focus solely on drawing, but I don't think will help you improve. Music can certainly help you- the trick is to find things that'll get you motivated. And yet you might just lose it all when you stare at a blank sheet of paper for a few minutes right? Generally when you want to improve, and this goes for anything, you should be able to identify 1) what you're lacking and 2) where you want to end up. If you're like me, and your brain just stops when you get to the paper, plan things out. Start your drawing prepared. Even though you don't and wont always want to be crazy prepared, just start with a solid idea, not an abstract one. "I'll work on drawing feet today" is a solid idea. "My body proportions don't look right" is not, but "I'll try to draw a 7 head tall person today" is better.
When it comes to poses, try stuff like this. Just get used to drawing wireframe people in crazy positions, and then start to flesh out those figures. Same goes for hands, get comfortable with them, then just start stretching and twisting them. Use reference pics, getting up and trying to remember your hands can eventually tire you out, defocus you from your session, and get you unmotivated.
Basically:
Get comfortable with stuff -> screw it up

What I do when I want to learn?
Well, I'm kind of a tunnel vision attention kind of person so when I get interested in something, I just immerse myself in it. So what tends to happen is I have about 4 tabs of Youtube up and playing and about 30+ more tabs on the thing I'm trying to learn. I'm pretty much trying to learn to walk by running into walls.
And then I just lose interest in it like a toy and find more rocks to pick up, but that's leading off into another tangent.
Just to sum things up: be motivated, have a goal (a solid goal, btw. Make small goals if you have to. If your goal is to have a score of 18 at golf, you don't just shoot 18 balls, you get 18 hole-in-ones, one at a time), and then follow through.
Apparently rewarding yourself works with certain people. I could never trick myself into doing something so I can reward myself later though. I think that's dumb, so I just go "Here, me, have some sugar. Now go get 'em."
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Teewee

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2012, 07:15:02 PM »
@Aoshi: I have a camera, but my folks never have the time to pose for me, and when they do, they expect me to memorize the pose in 30 seconds. They're way too impatient for that. I can't take a pic of myself, since then i'd be using one of the hands needed for the pose. And I finding ref pics I want is pretty much impossible for me; I've tried countless times, and couldn't find anything close to what I've been looking for. I do draw as often as possible, though.

@SuperParadox: (edited) I think I misunderstood, nvm, hehe

@Kinoko: I don't know how to make use of that :/

@Walthermelonz: I'll see if I can get that book.

@Merp: His books never helped me at all :/ It's the same for books in general.

@ruikomatsu: It works, but the whole process of drawing is pretty stressful for me. Anything to help alleviate that?

@Kaze Senshi: no.

@EdibleGhost: I'm not offended. I do know where I want to end up; I'm just ungodly far away from it considering all the time I spent. What do you mean by planning this out, though? I get what you mean about getting a solid idea. Posemaniacs is unhelpful, since it's no hard to navigate and I never find the pose I'm looking for. How do I get comfortable with hands, and what do you mean by "stretching and twisting"? How do I "just" immerse myself into drawing?

I'm a very psychologically-damaged person  (it's probably the reason I can't "just" make use of any of the advice), so maybe some methods to make that less of an obstacle would help? Thanks for giving the advice, though; I'm glad you guys care :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 11:57:24 PM by TEspeon »

pineyappled

Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2012, 08:39:06 PM »
photos
of people
what is there not to get
:I

Don't draw just what you're "looking for." You're practicing, not ~drawing~. Find pictures of live, not-anime people and put it onto paper.

Teewee

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2012, 11:58:56 PM »
I'll try that out sometime, I guess. I just can't help but feel uncomfortable when I'm drawing something I don't want to draw, but I'll see if I can overcome that at least once. Thanks, though.

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 08:42:22 AM »
@EdibleGhost: I'm not offended. I do know where I want to end up; I'm just ungodly far away from it considering all the time I spent. What do you mean by planning this out, though? I get what you mean about getting a solid idea. Posemaniacs is unhelpful, since it's hard to navigate and I never find the pose I'm looking for. How do I get comfortable with hands, and what do you mean by "stretching and twisting"? How do I "just" immerse myself into drawing?

I'm a very psychologically-damaged person  (it's probably the reason I can't "just" make use of any of the advice), so maybe some methods to make that less of an obstacle would help? Thanks for giving the advice, though; I'm glad you guys care :)
Well that's just the thing, you shouldn't just draw people in poses, but be able to have such a familiarity with the human anatomy (and perspective too, I suppose) that you can draw people in any pose. Posemaniacs isn't supposed to be a place to find certain poses, but to get used to drawing the human body in different positions from different angles. "The armpit and chest stretch like this when the arm is raised", "this is how far the feet can bend", "this is how the hand curls when people walk". Stuff like this is what you should try to notice. Have you ever played with action figures? I have, and I hate the solid ones that don't bend at the joints. It's the different between having 100 models and 1 pose-able action figure. So although you may not originally find the pose you want, you'll learn the nuances of the human body then be able to bend and twist the body in your imagination and then draw it on paper, though I'm not saying that this is easy. If that makes sense?
Same thing with hands, start primitive, with squares and circles, then boxes and spheres, and then flesh it out. Of course, this is a whole lot easier said than done. I still have a hard time with hands. I'll bring up another action figure analogy. I used to like building GunPla kits (Gundam Plastic models), and the first steps are the frame. You build the frame, the skeleton, and then at the very end you apply the familiar armor parts that you're used to seeing on the show. In other words, being able to draw hands from a reference is good (a mirror, in your case), but that's just the outside. Start from the inside out, so to speak. Going back to body anatomy, even in anime drawings, you can tell who knows some anatomy because you can see like rip cages, just as one example. You can't bend the rib cage, and it stops above your stomach; that's where you can start bending people. There's tons of hand tutorials on the internet, just Google search at will. But again, try to avoid the situational poses and look for the tutorials that'll teach how to draw hands, not hand poses.
If I had to describe immersion in other terms, it would be words such as 'pure focus', or 'total dedication'. I don't think they catch the... mentality of immersion quite well though. I can only say to just find your atmosphere for it. It's like how some people hate watching movies on dvds at home and prefer the big dark room and giant screen and audio of the movie theatre: because they find they can immerse in the movie experience more. For example, music helps me get into the mood for drawing. When drawing Touhou characters, I generally tend to listen to their character music to help me get into the mood for drawing them, and set my own atmosphere for working on my piece. Immersion is easier if you really enjoy and want to do what you are wanting to immerse yourself in. As another example, I'm currently really wanting to get better at the piano (after watching Nodame Cantabile lol) and I found myself ending at like 6pm when I started practicing right after lunch. But once again, it may be harder for other people, so I say again: find your optimal atmosphere for whatever you want to do. I think that maybe understanding yourself is quite as important in these cases.
By planning it out, I mean if you tend to get lost and disinterested (like me) because of it, get into drawing with a solid direction and idea in mind.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by severe psychological damage, but it just means you might need to take things from another angle if it's a really key factor in your inability to progress further.
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Teewee

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2012, 09:36:35 AM »
So, I should draw any pose I find there? And no, I haven't really played with action figures, so I don't get those analogies :/ I think I get what you mean by finding an atmosphere, but what do you mean by "finding another angle"?

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 10:47:55 AM »
Well to put it bluntly in an overly simplified way: find what works for you and apply the crap out of it
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2012, 05:29:58 AM »
One thing you might try is varying your media and techniques. It sounds like you only work with pencil and eraser, and if you're anything like how I used to be, you've just been doing anime-style line drawings with that pencil. That doesn't really help you learn, and it gets boring to boot.

The ultimate goal of learning to draw is learning basic forms--how to portray a shape in 3 dimensions, what shapes make up a human or a car or a dinosaur, and how those shapes connect together. Changing up your routine once in a while does wonders for getting you back on that basic task, and away from rote memorized finger movements. Try out some pens or paints sometimes. Try ignoring the contour (outline) of the thing you're drawing, and constructing the shape from shadows. Do whatever you need to do to shake up your learned behaviors and get to really thinking through fundamentals.

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Teewee

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2012, 08:22:26 PM »
@Edible Ghost: I just hope I can find what works soon.

@MaullarMaullar: Wow, thats pretty much it, surprised you knew o_o though now I'm trying to do the same, but with a tablet. I agree that it's boring.

But, how do I learn how to pull off basic forms, shapes, and figure out how they connect? Looking at that third link, I don't really have that many options, and I can't comprehend the rest of the advice; I can't afford a drawing class or to go outside (I'm never permitted to unless its to go shopping. And even then I'm forced to always move, so I can't even find time to draw). I'm not even sure on how to imagine things in ways helpful to drawing (like seeing something as 3D to help me draw differently); my mind always just draws a blank. Really, I just have no idea how to "grasp the fundamentals"...I'd appreciate help with that. I think I can try out pens, though. Also, how do I draw something from shadows?

All of this is just so foreign to me  :ohdear:

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2012, 10:21:56 PM »
squint until you realise your fingers are cylinders connected to each other;  or at the very least, everything can be drawn from a  box :v
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 03:53:13 AM »
All of this is just so foreign to me  :ohdear:


Sometimes you just have to run headfirst into things and go from there.  I know what it's like wanting to understand what you're doing before you try doing it, but with something like drawing, there won't be any negative consequences to messing up aside from your drawing not looking how you want it to.  Remember that a lot of artists started out not understanding a lot of the advice in this thread, but by attempting it, it might just "click" for you instead of having it explained.  It's like how some people are more visual learners, some are more hands-on, and so forth.  It seems like you have some inhibitions about drawing, and that's okay.  I'm the same way, and it makes me afraid to try certain projects I'd love to do just because I'm afraid of messing them up.  I'm still working on it, but what really helps is to think "Okay, screw it, I want to do this, I don't care if I don't think I'm ready, I can always try again later if I don't like it."


It helps to look for tutorials and stuff, but you can learn a lot from your mistakes, too.  It's why it's a good idea to save some of your older work.  I'm a hypocrite in saying that, since a lot of my old stuff has gotten pitched/thrown away, but I do keep a few things for the sake of nostalgia.  Improvement might not be very apparent until you have something old to look at.  With some of my older things, I can see mistakes I've made in the past, like "Oh, I made the arms too long" or things like that.  Sometimes you can do that with a very recent drawing, too.  I think a lot of people will finish a piece and feel really happy about having it done.  When they look at it 3 days later, they see things they can improve on or what they could fix.


Taking a break from a project can be really helpful, too.  When you're stuck drawing something for a long period of time without taking a proper break, you start to see how you want the drawing to look, but not what it really looks like.  If you take the time to get your mind off of it and go do something else, you can come back to it and look with fresh eyes, and see things you might've messed up, or things you can fix.  (It can help to look at things from a distance, too)  Breaks can be helpful, but sometimes I get into the habit of working on and off of projects and losing interest, or I end up constantly fixing old portions instead of making any progress.


Oh and the thing about drawing from shadows means you don't rely one outlines to give an object shape, but rather, the colors, values, hightlights, shadows, etc.  One of my college teachers always said that she wanted the projects to use "Value as an edge" instead of relying on outlines.  If you were drawing something flat-looking or that's not meant to look 3-D it's easy, but when you try to give "body" to a 3-D object, you need to rely on highlighting and shading.  I'm sure you've seen people practicing shading by drawing a ball, right?  If you look at this example, you won't see any outline, but you can tell it's a ball, and that it looks relatively realistic.  There's nothing wrong with starting the project out with an outline, but you want it to be very light/subtle so once it's done, you can't see it.


It really all depends on style preferences and what you're drawing and whatnot, but it's still good practice to try the activity yourself.  There's nothing wrong with outlines (some people love them and use them really effectively) but outlines can potentially ruin good pictures, or make something look a lot less realistic.  Practicing different styles and drawing different things can help you get better at drawing things you want to draw in your style.  It's the same with practicing different forms of media.  Techniques from one medium can be transferred to a different one and produce interesting results.  I took Painting 1 last year and while I was working on a project, I was thinking "Hey, maybe I can try something like this in Adobe Photoshop."

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2012, 10:51:24 PM »
I'm not even sure on how to imagine things in ways helpful to drawing (like seeing something as 3D to help me draw differently); my mind always just draws a blank. Really, I just have no idea how to "grasp the fundamentals"...I'd appreciate help with that. I think I can try out pens, though. Also, how do I draw something from shadows?

All of this is just so foreign to me  :ohdear:

What is meant by grasping the fundamentals is to see a cute girl, or a dinosaur, or a house not as a collection of lines, but as an amalgam of simpler shapes. Although a drawing is made of lines, it's not the lines that you're drawing. As the above linked shadow exercise shows, sometimes you can do away with lines entirely--because it's ultimately volume that you're trying to show, the peaks where light gathers and the valleys where light can't get in. As an illustrative example, and these links are slightly NSFW:

I start with a basic stick figure to get the pose down. At this point I'm not worried about details at all, as long as the joints are in the right places and proportions are about correct (torso and arms 2 heads long, each half of the leg a little less). For further guidance, I draw in a ball and plane for the head, a cut-off egg for the rib cage, and a couple angled ovals at crotch level to represent the pelvic bones.

Second, I start adding volume to my stick figure. In this, art books provide useful practice - these studies come from Loomis's Figure Drawing for All It's Worth.

Only here, with the underlying form, pose and shapes laid out, do I concern myself with hair and eyes and other details.

e: Finished product.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:28:36 AM by Bad Appellant!! »

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Teewee

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
@Red Frost: Hm... I'm still confused, but it'd be easier if I wasn't so afraid of making mistakes. I've been trying to get over that inhibition, but it's a lot easier said than done.

@MaullarMaullar: I think I get some of it. Problem is, I'm not so good at learning from books...but I'll keep trying.

Also, I could use something to learn shading from. Anyone got any suggestions?

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2012, 04:01:07 PM »
Learning shading is learning fundamentals--you can't effectively shade if you don't know the topography of the object you're trying to depict. For that reason, there's no substitute for drawing from life. Draw apples; draw furniture; draw tablecloths. Draw people as they walk by, or if you can't manage that, use Posemaniacs. But always remember to hold the basic shapes in mind--you're not drawing Reimu, you're drawing a spine and a head (ball + plane) and a flattened egg that shows the basic position and bulk of the ribcage, etc.

The suggestion to draw from shadows, mentioned earlier, still holds. Learn hatching, or turn your pencil almost flat and smear the side of the lead against the paper. Start from the darkest shadows you see (usually, cast shadows--here, a couple areas around the top of the apple) and work your way out. Again, don't worry too hard about outlines.

The ultimate goal is to be able to draw something like this:
[nsfw]http://i.imgur.com/zd7wM.jpg[/nsfw]

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Teewee

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 05:32:51 PM »
I don't get what you mean by topography, but basically I just draw real things? I can't really draw people moving (my memory isn't that great) but I can try drawing things in my house (will that work?). I'll try out hatching too, but I'm a bit intimidated...

I really appreciate the advice, guys ^_^

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2012, 10:04:59 PM »
By topography, I mean where a surface is raised or lowered or curved, and what that means for the light falling over it. For example, take this demonstration piece from ConceptArt:



Notice that the left-hand drawing is immediately recognizable as a face despite being just a few shadows (under the brow ridge, under the nose, under the lips, along the opposite side of the head from the light source.) Once you have those shadows, you have the shapes that are making those shadows--and that's what you're ultimately after. Of course, you're not going to start straight off drawing faces, which is why art school types start with fruit and other simple shapes, and move up only once they can convincingly place all the shadows on that fruit. Basically draw a million of these. When that gets old, work from art books and other resources (the Art Tips thread linked earlier is always great)--don't worry if you don't immediately understand the lesson, just copy down the exercises. If you're afraid of making mistakes, just don't show anybody. Draw with the knowledge that 99% of your practice sketches will get thrown out. Make it your goal, in fact, to burn through a whole legal pad every month.

Nothing in this post should be construed as legal advice, nor as creating an attorney-client relationship, nor as an advertisement for legal or law-related services.
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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2012, 05:22:15 PM »
I get a little of it, but I'm still really confused on applying the advice. Anyone know how I can make myself "enjoy drawing for the process, not the result"? I'd also like to know how to really tolerate making constant mistakes; I can't help but feel really demoralized when I make so many mistakes in one sitting. Also, how do you guys approach drawing? I try to start all calm-like with calm music playing, but that doesn't work for me.

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Re: On fixing errors in learning to draw
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2012, 05:47:48 PM »
I don't know if this will work for you but, try making a few quick doodles with a marker. It can be either the small felt tip one or the large chisel tipped one. As you can see where this is going, obviously you can't erase marker lines, so the lines you'll put down are there are on the paper are there whether you wanted them there or not. Basically this is just helping you live a little with the lines you put down, and not have you erase every little mistake you make. (Besides, some people make several versions of a drawing, refining the drawing little by little until you get the version of the complete product.)

Ah, and don't think too much about what you're drawing. It's supposed to be fun and derpy.  :3
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