Sorry for off-topic but, I often saw the same art from the same artist everywhere (OP's picture). does anyone know who's this person who draws touhou characters? Bad English is bad...
On-topic: Isn't Miko (not Reimu) supposed to be Byakuren's enemy?In the diagram do you notice the red line that connects Murasa to Futo? That line doesn't indicate Murasa is Futo's enemy but rather it indicates Miko's crew is hostile to Byakuren's crew.
I would have linked you to the Touhou wiki page or something but it seems to be not working at the moment. (for me, anyways)(Off topic) Same here, but the wiki's down lol
Momoji is an enemey of Aya?Aya's Double Spoiler quotes imply that they have a mutual distrust for each other (which applies to wolf and crow tengu in general).
Aya's Double Spoiler quotes imply that they have a mutual distrust for each other (which applies to wolf and crow tengu in general).From the wiki, Yukari's entry:
As for Futo/Murasa, if you look closely, you'll see that the line does not actually connect their pictures, but rather the blue boxes surrounding them (the Myouren and the Tao crew, of course).
The line between Yukari and Eirin, on the other hand, connects the characters themselves, although I don't know why they're enemies (probably some SSiB/CiLR stuff which i should get around to reading sometime).
Not quite sure what's up with Alice/Sakuya or Suika/Patchouli, probably some fighting game stuff.Alice-Sakuya -- Sakuya is ususally hostile towards Alice in both fighting games, especially when compared to her treatment of Marisa and Youmu.
I'm also a bit confused why the creator decided to make Cirno/Dai's relationship semi-hostile but didn't bother to green Marisa/Alice or Reimu/Yukari, but oh well.Cirno-Dai (and Cirno-3 Fairies) can be summed up as this, it's fairy logic; The can be friends one day, at "war" the next, and then back to friends.
There's also Seiga/Miko missing (which could be done in a similar fashion to Eirin/Watatsukis),Probably, Seiga is the one who taught Miko Taoism. But nothing beyond that.
as well as Patchouli/Koakuma and possibly Kogasa/Yoshika.Nothing in offical works indicate any relationship between either pairing.
Also seems he got lazy with the Moriyas and Prismrivers. :V Poor Kanako got no relations.I should've explained the color of boxes also indicates what kind of relations for all within in. The blue box (i.e. SDM) means everyone in it is familiar with one another. The green box (i.e. 3 fairies) means everyone is at least on a level of friends with one another. The magenta box (Prismrivers) means everyone in it is related.
Of course, there's no denying that this is a great map, just a few things are off here and there.It is a prototype. It stills has a few bugs in the system.
*snip*guess I've been thoroughly debunked, haha. keep up the good work.
From the wiki, Yukari's entry:
Unknown to each other, Eirin and Yukari's own history actually goes back farther than that. As mentioned by Watatsuki no Toyohime at the end of chapter 17 of Silent Sinner in Blue, one thousand years ago Eirin set up a trap to catch someone who'd try to invade the moon. Yukari was well aware of the trap, apparently having already triggered it before (assuming her "make-believe" story in Cage in Lunatic Runagate actually happened). She seems to bear a grudge against the Lunarian sage (Eirin) that set it, referring to her as "the much-despised Lunarian sage".
However, Yukari hasn't realized who Eirin is. Neither of them make special note of each other in Imperishable Night and are amicable with each other in the ending. Near the end of Silent Sinner in Blue, Yukari remarks to Ran Yakumo that she's unsure if "the Brain of the Moon" had actually settled on earth. Yukari suspects Eirin is a spy for the Moon.
The final chapter of Cage in Lunatic Runagate reveals that Yukari orchestrated the events primarily to teach Eirin to fear the unknown, likely because those who live as humans in Gensokyo are supposed to fear the youkai (as stated in Yukari's lecture to Ran earlier about the aliens).
In short, the two are probably antagonistic to one another. Unknown if they still are.
I should've explained the color of boxes also indicates what kind of relations for all within in. The blue box (i.e. SDM) means everyone in it is familiar with one another. The green box (i.e. 3 fairies) means everyone is at least on a level of friends with one another. The magenta box (Prismrivers) means everyone in it is related.It is a prototype. It stills has a few bugs in the system.Yeah, that would be really helpful. I'll say again, make it bigger. It would help. Also still curious how you're making this.
Why is Reimu and Sanae green? And yet, Marisa and Rinnosuke or Reimu and Rinnosuke not green?I think the relationship chart was based on only canon information. I don't think there's an official canon relationshipping between Rumia and either Wriggle or Mystia. If the chart also incorporated fanon relationshipping, then it would probably look more complicated than the Japanese subway map :V
Wriggle, Rumia and Mystia should all be blue, they at least know each other. At least I think it was them chasing/being chased by Youmu.
Why would patchouli hate Suika? The only times they met were the fighters and she was never too hostile towards her.Yes, she was; in SWR she ignored Tenshi and went straight to Suika, thinking she started the whole incident. She also hosts the Setsubun in the SDM, which started only after Suika appeared IIRC, and both Patch's and Suika's article in the BRiJR imply that the festival and Suika breaking the moon were to show off against each other. Patch in general seems to have a strong dislike for onis, IIRC.
I think the relationship chart was based on only canon information. I don't think there's an official canon relationshipping between Rumia and either Wriggle or Mystia. If the chart also incorporated fanon relationshipping, then it would probably look more complicated than the Japanese subway map
What I mean is that there is no canon information that Reimu and Sanae's are friends. All we really know is that Sanae visits Reimu's shrine. But then Remilia also visits Reimu's shrine often and Reimu also visits the Scarlet Devil mansion in canon, yet no green line between those two. Or how there is no green or yellow line between Yukari and Reimu, when we know Yukari has been Reimu's partner in one of the games and her trainer in one of the books.Simply being familiar with each other doesn't really guarantee blue lines. If that was the case, then certain characters like Kogasa, Kisume, Parsee, etc. should all have blue lines connecting them to people like Reimu and Marisa, since the latter two are obviously familiar with them.
There may not be any official relationship between Rumia, Wriggle or Mystia, but they were together when they tried to scare Youmu in the 3 Fairies' manga. So, they should know each other. Image of Team 9. (http://www.mangareader.net/touhou-sangetsusei-oriental-sacred-place/3/12) Not really a team, but whatever. Team 9 chasing/being chased. (http://www.mangareader.net/touhou-sangetsusei-oriental-sacred-place/4/8)
There are strong indications that these youkai know each other.
Huh. This looks like a good beginning, but the first thing that jumps out at me is there should be a lot more blue lines from Aya.Or Red ones. Aya is not well-liked.
Aya probably need a blanket statement under her or something saying "Disliked by most people." Since the chart would be FILLED with lines, otherwise. As it is, she's disliked by so many people that her being disliked by someone is more akin to "a natural occurence" than an actual relationship.
Probably safe to assume Suwako knows Hina, in fact, since Hina is a Curse Goddess and Suwako can control them...Suwako doesn't control curse goddesses, she controls the Mishaguji; they're earth, curse and harvest gods who arose as personifications of the Moriya area, as is Suwako. They're practically two aspects of the same being. And wasn't Hina supposed to be more a youkai than an actual god?
Heh.
Man, I had a feeling that chart was going to attract all kinds of hair-splitting, but I had no idea. What a fun read.
Her paper is regarded by general consensus in Gensokyo to be a gossip mag, but that doesn't necessarily mean she, herself, is disliked by most in Gensokyo. And even if that were the case, there are likely degrees of dislike, just as there are between us regular non-magical humans - maybe some folks loathe her, while some are just kinda irked by her, while some are just pretty shrug about it. So maybe the "dislike" lines should be color-coded for matters of degree of dislike.
Having said that, it appears she has an indeterminate number of friends and allies - like a lot of these folks - so it'd be fairly difficult to make relationship lines with any accuracy. I think blanket statements would cause more confusion than clarity.
It just occurred to me that I would love to see this in Venn Diagram format, but I think I would go insane if I tried.Rather boring, I should think. In Venn diagrams the circles are states of relationships and the points are relationships, located depending on what the state is. In this case we have a few states and tons of relationships. It would look something like this:
Rather boring, I should think.
Maybe with a small set, as you show, but the entire cast? Doubt it'd be that simple.With the entire cast, so much of this chart would be words, instead of graphical representation, which would almost defeat the purpose of the chart. That might be nice for some people but I would find it to be a boring chart. This just isn't the kind of information that should be displayed on a Venn Diagram.
With the entire cast, so much of this chart would be words, instead of graphical representation, which would almost defeat the purpose of the chart.
Are you sure about that? Maybe we have different ideas of how Venn Diagrams work. As I see it, the names shouldn't repeat themselves, as they do in your example. You wouldn't write "Character A+Character X", "Character A+Character Y", "Character A+Character Z" and so forth - rather, Characters A, X, Y and Z would be inside the same circle. These circles would have to be color-coded to accurately reflect their relationship. Character A would also be in a few overlapping circles - with mutual friends, enemies and so on - as would X, Y and Z. So the text shouldn't be heavy at all - just one instance of each name. You just have to arrange the overlapping circles and the sets within them correctly. That would include not having two separate instances of the same name (such as "Marisa+Sanori" - guessing you meant "Satori" there - and "Koishi+ Satori").Ok. That's certainly not the traditional use of a Venn diagram but that would be more interesting. While that could be interesting in some cases I would say it wouldn't be interesting in this one. I think that this would be an interesting graph if there were a number of circles of 4-5 mutual friends, and these circles linked to form something like a chain mail of friendship. As it stands you would have a lot of circles containing only two people, which might as just be draw a line.
Kind of Off-Topic, and I'm sorry for that but this (http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=manga&illust_id=23412538) is a touhou character chart worth looking at. The guy also has more... they are just so cool.Haha nice work, and indeed it looks as complicated as a Japanese subway map lol
Or Red ones. Aya is not well-liked.The same can be said of Satori.
Simply being familiar with each other doesn't really guarantee blue lines. If that was the case, then certain characters like Kogasa, Kisume, Parsee, etc. should all have blue lines connecting them to people like Reimu and Marisa, since the latter two are obviously familiar with them.
Meeting Reimu once does not really mean they know Reimu or vice versa. It is kind of like walking along the street, talking to a stranger once, but you would not know the stranger. With the exception of Kogasa, I don't think Kisume or Parsee are good examples.It may be true with Kisume, but Reimu definitely interacted with Parsee more than her. It's not like Reimu suddenly walked up to her and beat her up without saying anything or saying very little. Both sides exchanged dialogues to get to know each other better before fighting, so they are definitely not complete strangers toward each other.
Kind of Off-Topic, and I'm sorry for that but this (http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=manga&illust_id=23412538) is a touhou character chart worth looking at. The guy also has more... they are just so cool.
Now this is a really novel approach. You have the connections all there, but it doesn't get too confusing. Also seems more accurate than the one in the OP.It's also mapping something different, appearance in games rather then cannon relationships.
Made a few tweaks. I'll probably make a few more, such as splitting Teacher -> Student separate from the yellow line.I dunno, I feel like you'd be stretching it a little thin there. Also, is there a significant difference between "Circle of friends" and "all familiar"?
It's also mapping something different, appearance in games rather then cannon relationships.
I dunno, I feel like you'd be stretching it a little thin there. Also, is there a significant difference between "Circle of friends" and "all familiar"?It's the same difference as between the blue and green lines. For example, Sunny and Luna are obviously friends, while Tewi and Kaguya aren't (where'd the Tewi/Eirin friendship line come from, btw). And Patch/Remi and Meiling/Sakuya are more tight with each other than they are criss-cross (well, Sakuya and Remi are pretty attached to each other, but it isn't really a friendship, at least not canonically). I'm not quite sure how the Moriya crew qualifies as friends (mostly Sanae <-> goddesses) when it's more of a master-servant relationship, though.
I also think that Mamizou doesn't belong into the Myouren box seeing as I'm not quite sure whether Byakuren is even familiar with her (should reread SoPM aaaah).Byakuren: (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_5) "Well, it is true that we've also had a bake-danuki settle down in our temple." She also mentions her in part 2, so yes, she does know of Mamizou, if that answers your question.
Made a few tweaks. I'll probably make a few more, such as splitting Teacher -> Student separate from the yellow line.
"Team 9" was also grouped together when the 3 fairies put together a festival at the shrine. However, I personally think that this "grouping" occurs mainly cause ZUN was just trying to purposefully select the stupidest/weakest named youkai that existed for both scenes.
It may be true with Kisume, but Reimu definitely interacted with Parsee more than her. It's not like Reimu suddenly walked up to her and beat her up without saying anything or saying very little. Both sides exchanged dialogues to get to know each other better before fighting, so they are definitely not complete strangers toward each other.
Oh.My.God. The confusion is uncanny. Blue lines in the middle are so many. It's like a knotted highway that cars cannot traverse well. I find Nasuverse much more understandable than this...or maybe it's cause of it's "words".Incidentally that was also made by Lord Frozen. It's just disorganized now because it's still being worked on.
Wait, I just noticed that all of the portraits were drawn by alphes, where did you find that?This. I've started looking for portraits and used Walfa's stuff.
Wait, I just noticed that all of the portraits were drawn by alphes, where did you find that?Actually, they're all done by kaoru. Danbooru is your friend.
Few coloring errors:The brown/orange is a student master relationship. You're right, it does need to mentioned in the key.
Eirin-Reisen is orange, which isn't in the key.
The line connecting Eirin with the Sisters is orange checkered. Again not in the key.
Why is Eirin/Tewi Yellow+Green, while Eirin/Reisen isn't?
Wouldn't call Sanae/Reimu Friendly. Tolerant at best. They are rivals in terms of their shrines.
Cirno's connections make her look like a massive Tsundere. :V
Soga/Futo isn't friendly. They're on bad enough terms that Futo killed Soga and is the reason she woke up as a ghost. They only work together because they both work for Miko. If anything, they're hostile to each other.
Seiga has the same line to Miko as Eirin does to the Watasukis, which isn't explained by the key.
Reimu isn't friendly to the Fairy Trio, Tolerant maybe.
As shown in SA, Aya is familiar with who Yuugi is, from the time the Oni ruled. I think IaMP does the same with Aya-Sukia.
Tokiko, her only appearance was apparently working for Rinnosuke, so should have some connection. She should probobly be listed as familiar unless she was explicitly stated as an employee, however.
I'm tempted to delete Tokiko anyway on the basis that she's too minor of a character. (Koa and Dai are just visible enough to warrant inclusion.)If you're going for all canon characters you should keep Tokiko, seeing as she is canon.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Koishi is connected to Myouren/Byakuren.
Going by the wiki. I should add a yellow arrow from Futo to Tojiko. However, their current relationship is mostly friendly as the rivalry has largely dissapated.
I also should add a orange arrow from Eirin to Tei. Tei, technically, is the one who rules Eientei itself.
She often hangs out at the Myouren Temple, but not because she has joined it. Because humans often visit the graveyard, she finds it easier to surprise them from there.Where are they getting Futo's and Tojiko's relationship from?
I'm tempted to delete Tokiko anyway on the basis that she's too minor of a character. (Koa and Dai are just visible enough to warrant inclusion.)
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Koishi is connected to Myouren/Byakuren.
Going by the wiki. I should add a yellow arrow from Futo to Tojiko. However, their current relationship is mostly friendly as the rivalry has largely dissapated.
I also should add a orange arrow from Eirin to Tei. Tei, technically, is the one who rules Eientei itself.
It was something about Futo swapping Soga's vessel for an unfired one, meaning it'd decay before she was able to come back.This is pretty much what SoPM says. The two are only united by their mutual struggle over Buddhism.
Part of the Shikaisen process y'know.
Tokiko, her only appearance was apparently working for Rinnosuke, so should have some connection. She should probobly be listed as familiar unless she was explicitly stated as an employee, however.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how Koishi is connected to Myouren/Byakuren.In SoPM Byakuren says she believes that Koishi lobotomising herself brought her close to enlightenment, and wants her as a disciple (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4).
In SoPM Byakuren says she believes that Koishi lobotomising herself brought her close to enlightenment, and wants her as a disciple (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_4).Byakuren wants everyone as a disciple though.
Those people don't always join, but Koishi did.Kogasa, right? My copy of SoPM would disagree
She often hangs out at the Myouren Temple, but not because she has joined it. Because humans often visit the graveyard, she finds it easier to surprise them from there.
Kogasa, right? My copy of SoPM would disagree
I also second moving Kogasa by the Myouren Temple group, if not including her outright. By TD and SoPm she's living on their grounds, others affiliate her with them, she's seen together with Mamizou and Kyouko, and Byakuren doesn't deny it in any way.
Reimu isn't friendly to the Fairy Trio, Tolerant maybe.
Those people don't always join, but Koishi did.
I wasn't aware that Koishi joined. Byakuren wants her to be the poster girl or something, but I don't believe Koishi joined.The best I could determine is that Byakuren is actively trying to headhunt Koishi for her temple. Nothing beyond that is known.
＊１２ 後日、勧誘により入門したそうです。出家はせず、在家ですが。
12: Afterwards, she was invited into the temple. Not entering the priesthood, but as a laywoman.
Knowing Koishi's character, I highly doubt Koishi would have taken it up, and if she did, it wouldn't have been for long until she wandered off aimlessly again.
Shouldn't there be a line between Utsuho and Kanako?
Shouldn't there be a line between Utsuho and Kanako? The Reimu/Yukari relationship has aspects of teacher-student as well. And what about a one-directional line between Maribel and Mokou?Kanako only approached Okuu in her dreams. Beyond that, there has been little contect between the two.
Kanako only approached Okuu in her dreams. Beyond that, there has been little contect between the two.
Well. someone's still using/ordering Utsuho around in the Nuclear Fusion Reactor, and I doubt it's Satori. Then again, "ordering" might be a bit too generous usage of the word, given Sanae's interactions with Utsuho. For all I know, maybe Suwako and Kanako just bribed her with some boiled eggs and a note saying some things she had to do for more.Or using the kappa as go betweens.
Well, just Eientei now, it is good to start small. Kaguya and Mokou have a feud, but their relationship are not enemies, so I would not go as far as eternal feud. It is also more one sided. Kaguya does not exactly feud with Mokou.Eternal Feud is mostly a joke.
Eirin, with Kaguya's help created the Hourai Elixir. So, she isn't solely responsible for creating the Hourai Elixir.
Do you have the arrows backwards for Eirin to the Watatsuki sisters? Eirin should be the Watatsuki sisters' teacher.
It could be that she couldn't figure how to make some things eternal or needed help. The elixir causes the soul to become invincible or something.The elixir made the body eternal, but the soul still decayed, leaving an empty shell after a while IIRC.
Well, just Eientei now, it is good to start small. Kaguya and Mokou have a feud, but their relationship are not enemies, so I would not go as far as eternal feud. It is also more one sided. Kaguya does not exactly feud with Mokou.
Eirin, with Kaguya's help created the Hourai Elixir. So, she isn't solely responsible for creating the Hourai Elixir.
Do you have the arrows backwards for Eirin to the Watatsuki sisters? Eirin should be the Watatsuki sisters' teacher.
I seem to remember Kaguya helping but if Kaguya has the power to make things eternal, why did she need the Hourai Elixer to be immortal.Characters name their powers themselves, and some are hard to put into words accurately. Also powers aren't infinitely strong or versatile at what they do.
The elixir made the body eternal, but the soul still decayed, leaving an empty shell after a while IIRC.
Kaguya routinely sends assassins after Mokou, and sent the heros of IN after Mokou to try and kill her, hiding it as a 'Trial of Guts'.
I'd say Kaguya cares about making Mokou's life hard.
And generally you don't send assassins after your friends.
Characters name their powers themselves, and some are hard to put into words accurately. Also powers aren't infinitely strong or versatile at what they do.
You have to consider what kind of assassins Kaguya is sending to Mokou. Would you agree that rabbits aren't exactly the deadliest of enemies? Well Reisen (Who Kaguya does send) could be dangerous, but the rabbits, not really.
I believe it's dented on the current chart with the superior having a black dot at the start of their line.That is actually an arrow and I'm talking about my chart which is more like Lord Phrozen's chart. Lord Phrozen has a lot of situations where there are two arrows leading back and forth between two characters. My chart just puts two labels onto a double ended arrow. While this does save space it still comes off as redundant when dealing with stuff like servant & master. Pet and Owner is probably necessary since the fact that some people are "pets" might come off as strange.
I noticed that Aya made Futo the Master of the Hermits, where is that coming from?Note where the arrowheads are going. Miko is master to Tojiko and Futo, I think I read somewhere (SoPM?) Futo is technically Tojiko's superior.
When I made my chart, I paid zero attention to LP's work and built it entirely new. Considering his chart is a fair bit out of date, that was probably for the best.For the most part your charts are the same, simply because relationships don't change so radically. It's not like he missed out on some massive schism in the SDM.
Ichirin and Unzan's relationship could perhaps be "Protector/Protected" or "Guardian/Guarded", since Unzan seems to be her bodyguard, going by SoPM.
Also, shouldn't Murasa be with the rest of the Myouren crew? She's one of their comrades as well, isn't she? At the very least she should have a conection to Byakuren,since she's the one that gave Murasa her ship.
Ichirin and Unzan's relationship could perhaps be "Protector/Protected" or "Guardian/Guarded", since Unzan seems to be her bodyguard, going by SoPM.Thanks, for the input. Guardian sounds pretty good if there isn't anything better.
Also, shouldn't Murasa be with the rest of the Myouren crew? She's one of their comrades as well, isn't she? At the very least she should have a conection to Byakuren,since she's the one that gave Murasa her ship.
As for Ichirin/Unzan, doesn't make sense for there to be a line in the code just for them.Really? How do you figure?
Thanks, for the input. Guardian sounds pretty good if there isn't anything better.She's still with them, as SoPM shows. I think you can put her as comrade and follower like the rest with no problems.
Murasa should be with the Myouren crew but I wouldn't know what their relation ship is. I would just make her a comrade and follower like Ichirin, Shou, and Nazrin but I wasn't sure if I missed something from TD.
She does...I was commenting on Imosa's chart, where Murasa isn't near the Myouren crew and each line has it's meaning written on them.
As for Ichirin/Unzan, doesn't make sense for there to be a line in the code just for them.
She's still with them, as SoPM shows. I think you can put her as comrade and follower like the rest with no problems.Right then. It shall be done. As for Byakuren, this arrow notation is a nightmare to follow. The label is close to whom it applies so Byakuren worships -> shou and shou (is the) disciple (of) -> Byakuren.
Just noticed, by the way your lines work, it seems you made a mistake in the Byakuren/Shou one; it says that Byakuren is a disciple of Shou and Shou workships Byakuren :P
Right then. It shall be done. As for Byakuren, this arrow notation is a nightmare to follow. The label is close to whom it applies so Byakuren worships -> shou and shou (is the) disciple (of) -> Byakuren.Ohh, now I saw it, I had understood the notation but the way those two labels were so close to arrows confused me. Perhaps it'd be better to split that single line in two?
-=+=Edit=+=-
Also, what's up with Rumia living in a "Lump of Darkness" on LP's chart
Kasen should be familiar with Suika, right?
Also, I feel like someone should hate Seiga. Byakuren? Might clutter it up too much though, since it seems like everyone hates Seiga.
Kasen only wanted to avoid Sukia. We don't know why. She could know her, or she could just not like Oni. Since the reason is unknown, we can't put a line.
No-one's shown enmity with Seiga. The only one who *could* be listed as an enemy of Seiga is Eiki, because as the Yama, she's the one in charge of the Kishin who are attempting to take her life, as she is a hermit.
It doesn't matter how or why. She recognizes her, knows her name (she doesn't say "an oni" she says "Suika"), and seems to assume that Suika would recognize her in turn. Thus, she knows her, in a way more important than "coincidentally in the same place at some point." No need to say they're friends or enemies or anything.More than that, she apparently recognises her "energy signature" in mist form.
More than that, she apparently recognises her "energy signature" in mist form.
As for Seiga. I don't recall anything in particular about Byakuren hating Seiga but it could be. I don't know anything about Eiki and Seiga.
It's in part 5 of the debate section of SoPM (the wicked hermit subsection). Byakuren says she feels "extraordinarily strong evil" from Seiga and later says "At this rate, it wouldn't be surprising if someone destroyed her. If other people don't, I might do it myself...". Basically she finds Seiga's evil magic (necromancy, etc) so offensive that she feels the urge to kill her.Yeah, I remember that part in SoPM now. Eiki's connection also makes sense but I don't like how implicit it is. I was planing on placing Komachi and Eiki like they are in LP's chart. Is "Hell" a better location for some reason?
The Eiki connection would be more indirect, since all we know is what Komachi told us about it in WAHH chapter 12. Seiga is on the Bureau of Right and Wrong's naughty list so they send assassins to kill her. Presumably Eiki is aware of this and approved it, since it's in her jurisdiction, but we don't know how she feels about it personally. It'd be a bit more straightforward if there were a "Hell" box around Komachi and Eiki.
Well, the location seems less meaningful to me than the organization she belongs to. Eiki and Komachi clearly don't work in precisely the same place, yet it only makes sense to group them. I guess the notion of Hell is also a bit confusing because of Former Hell and Blazing Hell and a number of other places in use which aren't connected to Hell as a political entity any more.This is a very good point. I was intending for the boxes to be (more or less) physical locations but I can certainly see where the organization would be more important. Luckily there are many places where this does not raise m/any issues.
Anyway, PMISS says she works for the Bureau of Right and Wrong.
She also sends:
The Hakurei Miko
Yukari
Marisa, known for explosions, and Alice, who has dolls filled with gunpowder
A vampire
A person who can control time, makes murder references, and Eirin seems to know her...
Half-Ghost Swordswoman
A ghost with the power to invoke death itself [And Yuyuko TRIES, if the dialouge is any indication]
Those are pretty high-calibur assassins, last I checked, and if it's any indication... who said she sends rabbits all the time?
I'm sorry for all the criticism, I don't mean to bash your chart (for the most part, it's really good)No this is perfect. Like I said, it's really hard keeping all this stuff straight while working on it. I need feed back like this to remind me of stuff that I forget/don't think about.but that's what you get for slandering Patchouli. I really like some of the descriptions (the moon, man). the pink is really ugly though
- Kosuzu and Rinnosuke have some weird golden colour (which I assume is supposed to be just yellow). Kosuzu is fully human, Rinnosuke is half-human/half-youkai.
Rinnosuke has the orange (got the color wrong) to represent his Youkai half. I assumed Kosuzu was a youkai but I see I'm wrong.
- celestials aren't divine to my understanding, they're some sort of ascended hermit, so Tenshi's background should be brown
Good point, this should be investigated
- Unzan is also a spirit I believe?
I think you might be right. Something about him being a monk who couldn't look past his own feet
- Hina appears to be some intermediary thing between god and youkai
SoPM has no trouble calling her a god repeatedly
- Nue doesn't strike me as an animal in her base form, at least not more than Nitori; this is kinda debatable, though
For this part I was just following LP's chart because the immediate point is expanding his chart but I don't think they are canon. The humanoid/fauna split comes out of nowhere, and I don't see where he's getting "fiends" from. I may just take those out unless I get a little more info about them.
- alien is a pretty awesome category, but I'd probably rename it to Lunarian
I know what you mean but what about Reisen and the moon rabbits.
- you're probably working on Kasen's relationships right now, but a line between Yukari and Suika is also missing (friends)
It's there. Yukari, Suika, and Reimu share a "friend" node because the feelings are mutual
- in general, while the chart is awesome and overall organised well, there's still some messy lines here and there going all over the place (especially in the Reimu area and the Myouren temple). a reorganistation is maybe a bit much to ask for, but some shifting around would probably help (the Prismrivers are really in the way)
It wasn't that messy until I realized I forgot stuff and just drew it in. Right now my method for organizing the chart is just nudging things around until they look good
- some lines, like the one between Utsuho and Kanako, are really easy to misread. maybe get rid of the arrow tip and slide the "benefactor" field towards Kanako? same for Patch/Koa et alii
I really need to figure out what to do about the arrow notation, in those cases.
- lastly, there are quite a few typos. alone in the Eientei box, I see "elixir", "attendant", "feud" and "creator" misspelt, for example (misread the latter as "cheater", which wouldn't be far from the truth, lol)
I'm not sure if Visio has spell check. Thanks a lot for pointing this out.
- I'm not sure inhowfar poltergeists qualify as spirits, but this is more of a question than a suggestionrefers to the prismriver sisters, yes I think they are spirits. Poltergeist is German for noisy spirit. However, I'm hesitant on a lot of these species assignments and if a proper objection were raised I/we'd figure out something else to do.
SoPM has no trouble calling her a god repeatedly
Also, if this: refers to the prismriver sisters, yes I think they are spirits. Poltergeist is German for noisy spirit. However, I'm hesitant on a lot of these species assignments and if a proper objection were raised I/we'd figure out something else to do.oh, I'm aware what "poltergeist" means seeing as German is my mother tongue, lol (Geist actually means "ghost" and not "spirit", but I'm not quite sure what the exact difference is). Poltergeists don't seem very "spiritual" though, that's why I brought it up, but I guess in this case there's no distinction between spirits and ghosts.
Actually, SoPM says that she's not a god because she doesn't need faith to live. It does however repeatedly call her a "curse god". You should think of that as a compound word though. A cursegod isn't necessarily a god in the same way that a seahorse isn't a horse. The word "kami" also has a more general meaning of "spirit" and gets used in words like shikigami and tsukumogami. I think it's pretty clear that Ran and Kogasa aren't gods.It says she doesn't seek faith, not that she doesn't need it. I don't believe Suwako or Shizuha seek faith either. I asked some people on the IRC about it and they thought she was a god. Saying that she derives her power from people's faith in the dolls that are sent down the river. I'm not wholly convinced though.
Although jinxes are a kind of god, they do not seek faith. They are not like normal gods, but a kind of youkai.I'm not sure if youkai and god are mutually exclusive.
Also, this is pretty nitpicky, but it never says anywhere that Futo and Tojiko live in Miko's pocket dimension. Akyuu actually claims that Futo lives in the Human Village. They don't really discuss it in detail though, so it may just be something Akyuu doesn't know.lol, that's not nitpicky at all. I'm trying to be accurate here, so if something is wrong then it should be addressed.
Some minor things I spotted:
Hourai is the stronger doll. Hourai is used in the Lunatic Spellcard in PCB, Shanghai on lower difficulties. So it seems. I dunno if I should even keep the dolls as separate.
Seiga -> Yoshika is Master/Servant, possibly even dependance for life. Sounds good
Sanae -> Suwako: ancestor is spelt wrong. lol, thanks
You should probobly list the Dragon as well with Iku, seeing as Iku is the Dragon's Envoy. This is news. I had no idea.
Why is Cirno/Dai listed as 'Enemies?' when Cirno/TMF is '?'. Surely the relation between Cirno and those three is worse. The question marks are there because I have no idea about those relationships. Aya's chart calls Cirno and Dai Enemies and people said it was like that because of something in GFW, which I never played. I went along with it because I assume people are being careful to dispel the friendship that was built up by the fandom.
Also if Dai/Cirno is enemy due to GFW, so's Cirno/Lilly. Never played GFW, I leave that call to other people.
Kasen is freindly with Reimu, and doesn't want anything to do with Sukia. Yup, still need to make those connection. I'm hoping Kasen will be relatively easy to fit in because she's just one character.
Sukia's background is Human, while Yuugi is Feind. This was addressed in the latest version
You should probobly list the Dragon as well with Iku, seeing as Iku is the Dragon's Envoy.Nope, wrong dragon. You're thinking of the one in the Dragon Palace, assuming it exists and Iku's title isn't a pun on oarfish.
As in, people call them gods. The emphasis is put on the fact that it's just a name.
Nope, wrong dragon. You're thinking of the one in the Dragon Palace, assuming it exists and Iku's title isn't a pun on oarfish.
This is interesting, is there a difference though? As far as I can tell, you become a god, because people of faith. So, I don't quite see the difference between naming something a god and that something being an actual god. Since the former would also become a god.As I understand it, gods gain a real, measurable, amount of power from faith, unlike you. You, as a person, can exist even if nobody knows you exist. A god can use faith to manifest themselves and then effect the world.
Then again, if there is emphasis on the difference that is even more confusing.
@chart: If Reimu is friends with Yukari and Suika, then, there should be friend line between her and Remilia. She goes to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Remilia visits her. I think, I recall this.
I'd like sources for these.
There should be a line between Akyuu and Eiki. I think she is under Eiki's employment during periods between reincarnation.
I think Youmu has 3 teachers. Youki, Yuyuko and Yukari.
I think the Prismriver sisters live somewhat close to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Misty Lake.
I think Sunnymilk is afraid of Lily White for reasons unknown.
Sending Hina dolls down the river is a real festival in Japan. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hina_doll#Origin_and_customs) Hina's entire character is based on that. However, they doesn't necessarily mean they worship them. Not every supernatural thing that does a favor for you is a god. Otherwise all benevolent youkai like Keine or Tewi or Zashiki Warashi would also be gods.I believe there is a distinct difference between gods, and Keine, Tewi, and Zashiki Warashi. The people that you mentioned don't seem to survive on faith and don't get more powerful as faith in them increases. A god like Kanako does.
I don't think Hina was created by belief. I mean, the people doing the ritual aren't hoping for a god to take their misfortune away, they already put their misfortune directly into the doll itself. Even if they're "worshiping" the dolls, they do so to a different doll every year and a different doll for each family. Each one would be competing with all the others, and there are seriously a lot of these dolls being thrown away (apparently they have a negative impact on fishermen because there are so many drifting out to sea). There's no faith being put into a central god governing all the dolls downstream, which is what Hina would be.How do humans put misfortune into a doll? I'm sure explanations for this could be created, like perhaps someone taught them how to make special dolls. I would probably prefer to think that Hina wondered into Gensokyo and made the tradition catch on (unless some canon says otherwise). The problem with going there is that we both end up having a missing origin.
Rather, she's more like a youkai feeding off all the misfortune that people were throwing away anyway. They put their misfortune in the dolls, and she eats it from the dolls. The humans don't need her to exist, and she doesn't do a single thing for them. They already got rid of their misfortune, and they don't care whether it stays in the dolls or gets eaten by a youkai. Honestly, having Hina eat it is bad for them because she has the ability to bring it back to them, unlike a doll, which drifts away forever. Apparently she tries not to, but just by walking around with all the collected misfortune, much more than what you would find it any individual doll, she's making life more dangerous for them. As for her origins, it seems fairly like to me that she's a tsukumogami born from a doll, but that's never made clear.
How do humans put misfortune into a doll? I'm sure explanations for this could be created, like perhaps someone taught them how to make special dolls. I would probably prefer to think that Hina wondered into Gensokyo and made the tradition catch on (unless some canon says otherwise). The problem with going there is that we both end up having a missing origin.
Hina's roll as a god would indeed be strange, as you help to point out. I'm thinking that the tradition of sending dolls down a river is less important then the desire to get rid of misfortune and it's from this desire that Hina was created. I also don't think the tradition was started with the intent of finding a god.
It's kind of off topic but I do wonder about where the dolls would go if Hina didn't pick them up. You say that Hina is bad because she can radiate misfortune back to the humans and the dolls just take the misfortune away forever but I doubt the dolls just cease to exist.
From what I understand, it all funnels right back to Faith and Belief. The people believe strongly that their misfortune will be transferred into the dolls. That belief was likely what brought Hina into existence.
Did you somehow miss the part where this is a real tradition with real dolls? This wasn't made up by ZUN, nor does it only happen in Gensokyo. They do it every year in Japan. The dolls go downstream and end up in the ocean, where they're considered a littering hazard by annoyed fishermen. Gensokyo doesn't have an ocean, but presumably the rivers pass through the barrier.No, I got it. I don't see how that's an issue. It could have easily ended up in Gensokyo. The thing with the river is that if it flows out of Gensokyo into our ocean that means there is somewhere in our world where a river comes out of seemingly nowhere. Regardless, it's entirely possible that it goes underground or something. It's really not an issue.
As for "how"? How do you cast magic? How do you fly? Gensokyo is full of humans with supernatural powers, and many of them seem to be learned skills. While the people in real life probably just go through the ritual with nothing particularly spiritual happening, there's no reason to believe that Gensokyo's humans are unable to perform such a simple ritual as this.I would totally believe that there are people who can put misfortune into a doll the problem is that there just isn't enough information to be sure.
Belief and Faith are not, of course, the same thing in this series. Kanako explains the difference.I think I remember reading this in SoMP but I just skimmed over it and I couldn't find it. Where does she explain it?
No, I got it. I don't see how that's an issue. It could have easily ended up in Gensokyo. The thing with the river is that if it flows out of Gensokyo into our ocean that means there is somewhere in our world where a river comes out of seemingly nowhere. Regardless, it's entirely possible that it goes underground or something. It's really not an issue.
There's no faith being put into a central god governing all the dolls downstream, which is what Hina would be.
As I understand it, gods gain a real, measurable, amount of power from faith, unlike you. You, as a person, can exist even if nobody knows you exist. A god can use faith to manifest themselves and then effect the world.
She goes to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Remilia visits her. I think, I recall this.
There should be a line between Akyuu and Eiki. I think she is under Eiki's employment during periods between reincarnation.
I think Youmu has 3 teachers. Youki, Yuyuko and Yukari.
I think the Prismriver sisters live somewhat close to the Scarlet Devil Mansion and Misty Lake.
I think Sunnymilk is afraid of Lily White for reasons unknown.
Pretty sure Gensokyo corresponds to a real place, just like the Lunar Capital corresponds to the real moon. It's just a particularly boring place. I know a lot of older stuff like the PCB prologues and whatnot have been retconned, but as far as I know it's still canon that there's an abandoned shrine somewhere in Japan that corresponds to the Hakurei Shrine. So there's an unnotable mountain valley somewhere covered by a barrier of illusion hiding Gensokyo. Or is Gensokyo the illusion...?Ok, then that means there's a river in our world where dolls just come out of nowhere.
A central god isn't necessary as much as the representation. That representation would be the removal of misfortune. That would be what I call the "blessing". That would also be the center. And that would be Hina.So, what do you think about what Akyuu says about her in the SoPM profile.
As long as there is faith in things, anything, there would exist a god to do it. This is why I classify Hina as a god.
I don't quite see the difference between god in name and god in reality.
You, as a person, can also become a god if people believe in you. This is how humans become gods. This is also how objects become gods. What I am saying here is that there is a ritual and this ritual is something that gets done. I don't see why Hina would not be a god.
Youki is definitely Youmu's teacher. Yuyuko, look for Scarlet Weather Rhapsody win quote Youmu vs Remilia. Yukari, look for SWR story, Youmu's story.I wouldn't call the latter two teachers based on just what you linked. Yuyuko is old and probably has a lot of short sweet bits of advice. One instance of Yukari helping Youmu with something also doesn't really constitute a teacher relationship.
Hmmm I have no idea where the source is, but you can look for it. They live in a mansion (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Prismriver_Sisters). They also moved their concert to the Scarlet Devil Mansion (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Lunasa). But don't know where the source of where they actually live.Regardless I'm not really worries about geographical relationships. I did get the mountain right but it was also pretty convenient that way.
Strange and Bright Nature Deity, Chapter 8, Page 6. (http://mangafox.me/manga/touhou_sangetsusei_strange_and_bright_nature_deity/v01/c008/6.html)Looks good.
- what's with Nazrin in Muenzuka?According to her SoPM article (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Nazrin), she lives there.
- Patchouli has never been human, unlike the other three magicians (she should still have the same colours as Alice and Byakuren)
- pretty sure Yukari doesn't like Tenshi. Tenshi's colour is also a tad off
- what's with Nazrin in Muenzuka?
- Aya seems suspiciously lacking in connections, although stuff like her friendship with Reimu might just be speculation, so I'm not sure on this one
- does Chen actually live in the Yakumo household or in Mayohiga?
Man, this is going pretty well, good job!
a few more things:
- Patchouli has never been human, unlike the other three magicians (she should still have the same colours as Alice and Byakuren)Thanks
- Lyrica and Merlin's instruments are switchedThanks
- pretty sure Yukari doesn't like Tenshi. Tenshi's colour is also a tad offThere is no line between Yukari and Tenshi, colors were fixed though
- Suwako and the Kappa are still thecheaterscreaters of HisoutensokuThanks
- Alice and the three fairies are friends according to SaBND (http://mangafox.me/manga/touhou_sangetsusei_strange_and_bright_nature_deity/v01/c006/15.html)Thanks
- Kanako could probably use some lines to Sanae and Suwako, considering you did the same for virtually all the other clans. That would also fix her lack of connections, lolI'll add something between Kanako and Suwako but I wouldn't know what to do between her and Sanae. LP calls Sanae her "wind priestess" but... what's a "wind priestess"?
- what's with Nazrin in Muenzuka?She lives there. Nazrin has a very interesting relation with the Myouren Shrine
- Hatate is a crow, like AyaThis was a bit of a joke. A long time ago I heard that anyone who distinguishes between ravens and crows outside of an academic field where this difference actually means anything is just nit-picking. Trying to distinguish between a crow and raven tangu is silly because they might as well be the same animal.
- Aya seems suspiciously lacking in connections, although stuff like her friendship with Reimu might just be speculation, so I'm not sure on this oneI'm not doing a line for every resident of gensokyo, perhaps that should go into a note though. I called her a friend of Reimu because that's what LP called them but I may downgrade that relationship to ally because they did work together in SA, and that must count for something.
- does Chen actually live in the Yakumo household or in Mayohiga?According to the wiki... no... look at that. Apparently she should be in Youkai mountain. I guess I'll be making that change.
Also, Lily Black is just Lily White cosplaying Eiki. So answering her question, I don't think she should be there, no :Plol, ok
Also also, shouldn't there be a "friends" line between Rinnosuke and Marisa?There is
Some people I have questions about:
Medicine visits Eirin, anyone know where this might come from?
The mischievous faeries are customers of Maris, not sure where this comes from either.
Medicine is from her ending in Phantsmagoria (not many other places for it to be :P)I just read of Medicine's dialog with Twei and Reisen and there was nothing about visiting Eirin.
Three fairies is from an early issue. They were actually her first customers. Though IMHO by the end of the series, the fairies are more close friends with both Reimu and Marisa than just customers.
The three fairies were only Marisa's customers once, I think. A part of me vaguely remembers a 2nd time but I'd have to read through the entire series to check on that.Thanks a lot for that. I didn't know about that site. I'll probably make the fairies, friends of Marisa. Not sure if I'll keep Medicine's relationship. I will however turn her into a spirit since that seems more appropriate then her current species.
I've checked Medicine's ending and it's actually Eirin that visits Medicine, not the other way around (after Reisen reported about her to Eirin in Reisen's ending). Not sure I'd call it a relationship though since it might just be a one-time incident.
http://touhouendings.wikkii.com/wiki/Th09
On the other hand, I vaguely remember it being mentioned again elsewhere but I'm not sure where.
I wouldn't call the latter two teachers based on just what you linked. Yuyuko is old and probably has a lot of short sweet bits of advice. One instance of Yukari helping Youmu with something also doesn't really constitute a teacher relationship.
So, what do you think about what Akyuu says about her in the SoPM profile.
Also Kogasa is a youkai, a Karakasa is an umbrella that became animate, and developed a spirit.
These are snippets of events that Yuyuko and Yukari are teaching Youmu. So, it is somewhat safe to assume that they teach her other things during their daily lives and thus they would be her teachers.What makes you think that? Why do you think either of these are snippets?
You mean about Hina? From what I gathered on that profile, it seems like Akyuu calls her a goddess and considers her one. The difference being as she says, unlike normal gods, her nature is more like a youkai. I don't believe Akyuu mentions that she is actually a youkai.According the the wiki Akyuu actually does say "[jinxes] are not like normal gods, but a kind of youkai."
@3 fairies: Yes, the 3 fairies "hired" Marisa to help them exterminate the slug, tsuchinoko or something, looking thing. In the end, she failed, and it left on its own after eating everything. That slug thing became Marisa's pet, but I don't know for how long. I believe that is a one time thing, so I am unsure if you want to put a customer relationship with Marisa.Thanks. I don't need a reason for why characters feel the way they do.
Why is there a dislike arrow from Lily White to Sunny Milk? I know Sunny Milk fears Lily White, but we never know the reason why.
On the Sanae-Kanako thing, Sanae is Kanako's Shrine Maiden. Simple as that. It's just that the title she gets for it is 'Wind Priestess' since Kanako is a Sky Goddess.I was just gonna call Sanae the priestess of Kanako and Suwako. I guess I can change that to "Wind Priestess" if that's important.
It should be a master/servant line, or employer/employee.
Also I'm pretty sure Futo is a Hermit, or at least not humanFuto is a human who's soul is in some other vessel. I don't really know what that makes her. Her SoPM profile suggests that something went wrong in Futo's attempt to become a hermit.
Miko is Divine [Saint, her awakening made a massive gathering of DIVINE spirits]
Technically Miko is a god, since she's been deified by Shinto. I think she identifies most as a hermit though. These categories aren't entirely mutually exclusive.I wasn't really sure what to do about Miko's saint status. I can make her part divine if that's appropriate.
Also Kogasa is a youkai, a Karakasa is an umbrella that became animate, and developed a spirit.
Besides, Youkai as a whole are technically a type of spirit. [It means Ghost, in fact] I think 'Spirit' is better called 'Ghost', since it's basically only used for the, well... ghosts.
The umbrella always had a spirit. All umbrellas have spirits, along with pretty much everything else. That's kind of the whole point of an animist religion like Shinto. The spirit got mad for being abandoned though. The word used for spirit here is 'kami', which you may recognize as also being the word for 'god'. So in that sense, Kogasa is one of the Myriad Gods, like Suwako. Except she's not a god because she has no faith. She's a 'kami' who became a youkai.This all sounds pretty good. I'll change Kogasa to a humanoid. I'm not so sure about changing Spirits into Ghosts. Would vengeful spirits like Tojiko still be ghosts?
This is distinct from Divine Spirits ('shinrei') like Kanako.
This all sounds pretty good. I'll change Kogasa to a humanoid.For what it's worth, Kogasa is exactly the same thing as Medicine: a tsukumogami ("artifact spirit"), which is a very classic Japanese monster. Actually, now that I think about it it's pretty surprising that there are so few of them in Touhou.
This all sounds pretty good. I'll change Kogasa to a humanoid. I'm not so sure about changing Spirits into Ghosts. Would vengeful spirits like Tojiko still be ghosts?Vengeful spirits are a kind of phantom: specifically, they're the soul of a human that has a grudge and is full of hatred or some other negative emotion. They are common in hell precisely because of that. According to SoPM, Tojiko is slowly stopping being a vengeful spirit and just turning into a thunder-calling ghost.
Also, while we're on the subject, is Parsee a vengeful spirit? It seems to me that she's the ghost of a specific person.
Yuurei (幽霊, "secluded spirit"): Yuurei are your bog standard ghosts. The incorporeal souls of plants and animals. They are formless and can assume any shape they want. They aren't created by death, in that things are born with souls and some souls are born with no bodies, but they tend to be released by death. Some deaths create multiple yuurei (?!). They cannot be touched, but they have a cold aura. Yuurei are the embodiments of spirit, similar to how fairies are the embodiments of nature. These are the things hanging out in the Netherworld and what Komachi is charged with ferrying, and therefore the cause of POFV. Youmu is half-yuurei and Murasa is a ship yuurei, which is conceivably something different from a normal yuurei. We'll see in SOPM.
Bourei (亡霊, "deceased spirit"): Unlike yuurei, bourei are unnatural and not part of the cycle of life and death. They are created when a soul becomes too attached to the world or doesn't realize it's dead. Bourei are indistinguishable from living humans. They can eat, touch people, have body heat, etc. They can't go through walls or change their shapes. Their bodies aren't made of flesh though. Bourei are anchored to the world by their corpses, which are preserved and hidden somewhere. Destroying their corpses would kill them, so they're kind of like liches I guess. Yuyuko and Tojiko are both bourei.
Sourei (騒霊, "noisy spirit"): Poltergeist. Poltergeists are artificial creations. They are not the spirits of the dead nor of the living. They're spiritual beings with the ability to produce spiritual sounds. Technically they are an "ability" that someone else is using. The Prismrivers are poltergeists, obviously.
Akuryou (悪霊, "evil spirit"): Mima is an evil spirit. Next!
Onryou (怨霊, "vengeful spirit"): Onryou are the residents of hell, sinners sent there by the Yama to atone. They seem to be mindless and reduced to basic desires. As residents of hell, it is very unusual to find them outside of hell, which is why SA was such a big deal. They produce heavy metals based on their desires, such as gold from avarice, arsenic from murderous impulses, mercury from the desire to live at all costs, etc. I suppose this is an explanation for why these metals are found underground? Although of course most of them are poisonous. Rin commands the onryou, and they float around her in her portraits. Kasen hates onryou and kills them with her bandage arm, which annoys the Yama because they're supposed to be atoning.
Shinrei (神霊, "divine spirit"): These are basically the spirits in charge of conveying faith. They live in shrines, but are not gods themselves. They're just sort of attracted to shrines after they're built and hang out in the rafters or something, rather than being officially enshrined. They speak quietly and can only be heard by shrine maidens, although presumably they have to listen. They aren't really individuals in any meaningful sense. They're a manifestations of "prayers", ie: "desires". In TD they're attracted to Miko who apparently can also hear them. They're also attracted to Marisa in her ending. By listening to them you can learn what people most deeply desire, even if they're not aware of it. Futo calls them "teizokurei", meaning vulgar spirits. It's unclear if she knows more than we do or if she just views them differently. It's possible that what we saw in TD are actually completely different things from what Akyuu described.
What makes you think that? Why do you think either of these are snippets?
According the the wiki Akyuu actually does say "[jinxes] are not like normal gods, but a kind of youkai."
Fairly important question: Lily White (and by extension, Lily Black) aren't only present in spring, like Letty in winter and the Aki sisters in autumn?
For Yuyuko, Youmu says, Yuyuko says, blah blah blah. So, you can assume she also says other stuff that would be relevant to teaching her. Like teaching her how to pour tea.I think I define a teacher and student more strictly, as a formal relationship over multiple lessons, or when one side considers the relationship exists.
For Yukari, it was fairly clear that Yukari went to Youmu to tell her this information. Instead of straight up telling her, which she could have, she decided to teach her how to read the temperament.
Yeah, if you only read that sentence. But what she says is:Alright. I know I was taking the sentence out of context but in context it seemed to me to be a contradiction. I think I see what Akyuu is saying now, that jinxes seem more like youkai then other gods.
Although jinxes are a kind of god, they do not seek faith. They are not like normal gods, but a kind of youkai.
It sounds to me like Akyuu states that Hina is a god, which she also mentioned earlier. Then, she went ahead and said they are not like normal gods, but a kind of youkai.
So, when you asked my take on it, I said, her nature is more like a youkai than a god, however, she is still a god.
For further explanation, gods normally require faith to subsist. However, unlike normal gods, jinxes do not require faith. And because of that, they are more like youkai than god. That said, it doesn't mean that they aren't gods. I don't believe Akyuu is saying that anywhere.
Yes, they could be present in the other seasons. However, finding them is quite difficult.Do you think Lily White should be a Spring box like she is in LP's chart, because I'm really not sure.
I think I define a teacher and student more strictly, as a formal relationship over multiple lessons, or when one side considers the relationship exists.If we're talking formal relationships, Youmu is actually Yuyuko's teacher. Youmu's official job is "swordsmanship instructor", it's just that Yuyuko never takes any lessons and makes her take care of the garden instead.
In the case of Youmu and Yuyuko the relationship is very informal, which makes me hesitant to formalize it here. We all naturally teach each other things but when a younger person like Youmu lives with an older person like Yuyuko it just so happens that knowledge will tend to flow from Yuyuko to Youmu and not the other way around.
If we're talking formal relationships, Youmu is actually Yuyuko's teacher. Youmu's official job is "swordsmanship instructor", it's just that Yuyuko never takes any lessons and makes her take care of the garden instead.
I probably wouldn't list that on the chart though.
Regarding the Prismiriver Sisters,I always thought they lived in or close to the Netherworld because they are poltergeist in a ruined mansion and use to be performer to Yuyuko and at her parties;this is as stated In BAJiR,PCB,POFV,PMiSS.Turns out ,instead,that they are indeed located in a secluded part of the Misty lake;probably somewhat covered by the Forest of magic since we have no remark or hint whatsoever of another mansion around the Misty Lake. Moreover their mansion is only known as "Prismiriver Mansion"unofficially and is officially named"Ruined Western Mansion" http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_Western_Mansion ;again it's probably because they are performing(PCB,BAJiR,POFV,PMiSS) or looking for new sounds(POFV;Lyrica's Scenario) most of the time. Too much on my posting-plate ,so space and edit...
Hmmm I have no idea where the source is, but you can look for it. They live in a mansion (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Prismriver_Sisters). They also moved their concert to the Scarlet Devil Mansion (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red/Lunasa). But don't know where the source of where they actually live.
How many other characters can turn into mist?Re-reading the entire discussion I saw none responding to this query so I'll be doing it. So far only three characters are known to turn into mist: Suika(oni) ,Remilia and Flandre(vampires).] It is speculated Nue might be able to "show the fear of mist/fog" to certain people but in the end it would only amount to a situational psionic/psychlogical influence, not true shapeshifting.
It's fine the way it is. Yuyuko's body seals the Ayakashi and in turn this doesn't allow her to reincarnate.
- Is the current relationship between Yuyuko and her tree alright? I actually know very little about this.
It's probably oni in general. Going by what the wiki says:
- Does Patchouli dislike Suika or Oni in general?
Patchouli has no books on the oni, but dialogue shows she knew what oni were before meeting Suika. Her wariness towards oni subconsciously existed before that, as it is revealed in Sakuya's ending that despite claiming she didn't know about oni, Patchouli knew an oni caused the feast, revealing a subconscious knowledge on the matter. Prior to that, every once in a while, Patchouli would order coffee made from good beans instead of the usual red tea. Sakuya did not know why, but after discovering this subconscious trait, she finally understood. Oni are weak to fried beans. Patchouli only consciously realized she was supposed to use fried beans, specifically, for the coffee in her own ending, but by then, she's also realized it'd be better off used as danmaku. It is unclear if she realized that she subconsciously drank coffee all along as a preventative measure to oni. It is unknown why Patchouli developed this wariness towards the oni.
Seiga is almost certainly not staying at the same place as Miko, Futo and Tojiko; going by SoPM, she has no camaraderie with them, and goes around Gensokyo nagging people she finds interesting. Miko seems kinda wary of her too.
- The whole group of hermits are rather a mess. I dunno who's crashing a Miko's (Futo, Tojiko, Sagia), if Miko considered Divine as a Saint, if Futo qualifies as a Hermit in her current state (shes about to be unknown), someone mentioned everyone lives in the Great Mausoleum but I'm pretty sure that place was destroyed, ect. I dunno.
Patchouli <--Steal Books------Annoyance--> Marisa =P
- What should Marisa's relationship with Patchouli be?
Well, Cirno and Dai are shown playing hide and seek in Oriental Sacred Place, so I don't think anoyone will complain if you put them as friends. She appears as a midboos in GFW, but danmaku duels don't really mean actual animosity between the parties involved.
- How should I relate Cirno, Dai, and the Mischievous Fairies
An ancient human who cursed herself to sleep for a very long time. She is attempting to become an immortal hermit by way of escaping from the cycle of reincarnation through a temporary death. But in actuality, it has not gone that well, and she is being watched by shinigami as expected.
Currently, she's a hermit who has surpassed humanity. However, it appears that she hasn't completely severed her connection to the secular world, and has a tendency to become involved with human society. This is most likely a remnant from her days as a ruler.
If you're ever pursued by youkai, she should provide refuge at her residence. However, the entrance is hidden and no one knows where it is... (*3)
Oh, yes. I forgot to mention this but I don't normally live in Gensokyo. . (snip) I live in a space I created myself. Living somewhere that nobody can bother them is the essence of what a hermit is.
In regards to Miko's location along with the rest of the hermits, I found out about this place called Senkai (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Senkai). Among it's interesting things are the list of residents.
Since SoPM states Miko attempts to distance herself from Seiga, and Seiga loses interest in things very quickly, it's very unlikely that Seiga lives in Senkai. [Also she never showed up there in any ending]Just because its a special place for hermits doesn't mean that others can't go there. I think we can rule out Seiga but Futo and Tojiko are a little more difficult.
Yoshika is not a hermit, so she certainly wouldn't be there, since it's a special place just for hermits.
In page 23 of Wild and Horned Hermit Chapter 3, Reimu and Marisa are shown briefly visiting Miko and Futo in what's presumably their residence. There's a third person in the pic with Miko and Futo, but you only really see the bottom of her dress, her legs, and what looks like the end of a scarf or shawl. Given that Seiga has a shawl, that's possibly her (and hell if I know who else it could be), but there really isn't enough of her to be able to confirm for certain.
Futo is practically confirmed to be living with Miko in that pic. Tojiko isn't, but this is kinda a case of "Where the heck else would she live?", I imagine.
About Futo's species from her SoPM article, tho it's not really as specific as anyone would like:IIRC, shikaisen are a step below earthly hermits, but can be promoted to the regular kind if they prove themselves (and you need to do this before you can be further promoted to celestial). So my guess is that Miko has achieved this but Futo hasn't, and Akyuu doesn't consider shikaisen "real" hermits.QuoteAn ancient human who cursed herself to sleep for a very long time. She is attempting to become an immortal hermit by way of escaping from the cycle of reincarnation through a temporary death. But in actuality, it has not gone that well, and she is being watched by shinigami as expected.Miko's is more explicit:QuoteCurrently, she's a hermit who has surpassed humanity. However, it appears that she hasn't completely severed her connection to the secular world, and has a tendency to become involved with human society. This is most likely a remnant from her days as a ruler.
There's a wiki for it floating around on Google. I haven't checked it out myself.I know about this place (http://touhouendings.wikkii.com/wiki/Main_Page) but it only goes till 12.8.
http://vgboy.dabomstew.com/other/TenDesires.txt-_- So I may look like an ideot for not having thought of that but I did try "Touhou 13 Endings".
Here you go. It's the first thing that shows up when you google "Ten Desires Endings"
Just because its a special place for hermits doesn't mean that others can't go there. I think we can rule out Seiga but Futo and Tojiko are a little more difficult.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_Western_Mansion ;again it's probably because they are performing(PCB,BAJiR,POFV,PMiSS) or looking for new sounds(POFV;Lyrica's Scenario) most of the time. Too much on my posting-plate ,so space and edit...
Yeah, I know the wiki says Ruined West Mansion. However, there is no source. I am unsure where the wiki got that source, so I never mentioned it. Is that description part of the instruction booklet in the game that got translated or something?
@hermits: Miko, Futo and Seiga may not be true hermits. At least, I don't believe shikaisen is considered as the true path to hermithood. *shrug*
EDIT: One interesting thing about Higan is that it is specifically mentioned to not be in Gensokyo. Cool, noted
"Ruined Western Mansion" is not the official name, but a generic term, and how one would most likely call it in Japanese. The Prismrivers' profile called it "poltergeist residency" 騒霊屋敷. For this chart, "Ruined Western Mansion" should be sufficient.It seems that the wiki does place Shikaisen as a kind of Hermit. Why is this an issue again?
You have made good progress on the chart. It's my time to chime in. I'll focus on the relationships now, and examine descriptions later.
Locations:
Renko and Merry lives not only outside of Gensokyo, but also in near future. It's better to put a stronger emphasis on how they are from an entirely different world. I can add in the fact that they are from a different time, I just wasn't sure where. To be sure though, they aren't from a different world.
Iku's profile says she lives "inside the clouds", while the name of her stage is 玄雲海, which seems to have been translated as "Mystic Clouds" in the English patch? I think you should just use "Inside the Clouds". Alright
Kasen doesn't live in a pocket dimension. Her house is located on the Youkai Mountain. Are you sure? I'm fairly certain she lives in a pocket dimension. As Marisa found out, you can't just walk to her house. I suppose that pocket dimension is accessed through a location on Youkai Mountain.
I think Rumia can be placed in the Forest of Magic, but that's not very important. I heard she floats around literally anywhere. Her location being in the "Lump of Darkness was just because that's what LP did.
Characters:
Further remove the fanon parts: no need for Lily Black, as it's just Lily White in different clothing; the description for the dolls shouldn't mention Shanghai and Hourai, perhaps something like "still not sentient" would be better. Lily Black does appear though, the least I could do was explain why. At this point she's not even her own character.
Remember to add Namazu's in-game sprite, and change its background to "fauna". (Given its insignificance, I'd actually put in major characters like Tsukuyomi before Namazu.) The chart doesn't use in-game sprites. I'm trying to contact KirbyM to see if he'd be willing to make a Namazu Walfa, and if not I guess I'll do it at some point. Does Tsukuyomi actually play that big of a role in the story? I mean Namazu actually showed up, for one thing.
It's inappropriate to mark Utsuho as half-divine. According to Kanako in SoPM, she's more comparable to a "mobile shrine". In a way, Shou is much closer to divine than Utsuho (I still don't think Shou should be marked "Divine"). That's true, I remember this. I guess I'll change it.
There's no reason Futo is not categorized a hermit. Shikasen is definitely a type of hermit.
The generic "kappa" character feels clunky, but I can't think of a better way to represent it without making large changes, either. If it helps I have a sprite planed for them.
Relationship:
IIRC, there's nothing in canon that says Yukari treats Chen as a pet. That's what it says on the wiki
Remember to change Miko's relationship to Seiga to "Former Teacher" for consistency, and other consistency checks such as "Friends". Thanks
The "Hostile" relationship between Sakuya and Alice is unnecessary. They both attend Hakurei Shrine parties, after all, and since Alice prefers talking to humans, she must have talked to Sakuya a lot. This also comes from the Wiki. It may be a minor point but it does seem canon
I'm also ambivalent about the "Dislike" line between Sunny and Lily. Sunny feels a bit bad about being defeated by Lily once, nothing more than that, which is quite unlike the relationship between Momiji and Aya. Is that how it went? Maybe I should erase that relationship for the same reason I erased the relationship between Cirno and Dai
Other things: according to PMiSS, the heaven realms are above Netherworld, in the same dimension it's in. Not sure if that still stands, and no one cares anyway. Sorry, I fail to see the point thereI'd really appreciate help with descriptions. The format of things is still up for discussion. I figure the most important things to mention are character traits, as appose to things like position, but I really don't know.
BTW, the categorization of "fauna" and "fiend" is a genius idea. Note my idea, and I'm actually not a big fan of the Fiend catagory. Are Oni really any different then other Youkai?
Kasen used magic to make it so you have to follow a very specific path in order to find her house, it's a very common trope in stories.Is that all it is? That makes sense.
It's very considerate of you to not use in-game sprites. ZUN would approve of that. But has KirbyM ever drawn Unzan?
SoPM says that Kanako came from a divine spirit (either one or a group of them), so if she lost all her faith she'd go back to that; Suwako is one of the Myriad Gods and therefore is made of pure faith, so she'd vanish if she lost all of it. I don't think it's really necessary to make Kanako part humanoid; for all intents and purposes she's just like Suwako. Maybe. I thought Kanako confirmed her origin's in the story portion of SoPM.
Utsuho does contain the Yatagarasu within her, but the Yatagarasu seems to still be alive; in SoPM Akyuu wonders how the god must feel living in a place like Old Hell. Then again, Akyuu knew next to nothing about Utsuho, so...
About "fiend": I forgot the whole running gag of "vampires have oni weaknesses".
Divinity is more troublesome than any other categories, because the line between what is and is not a kami is blurry. Akyuu has said in SoPM that Hina shouldn't be called a kami, since Hina doesn't seem to subsist on faith. I don't think the chart has to follow Akyuu with regards to Hina. I dunno. We've talked a lot about Hina's status and at this point I'm not even sure Akyuu was saying that Hina isn't a god.
>Aki sisters and "Autumn Season"
SoPM says Shizuha is mostly active in Youkai Mountain and Forest of Magic, while Minoriko is mostly active in Human Village. It's better to separate "Autumn Season" out from Youkai Mountain, since like Lily White, they can appear in all of Gensokyo. Damn, LP messed up bad. I should have checked that. This might be hard to solve. They don't disappear when it's not autumn right? Might it be a good idea just to stick one into the human village and the other into the forest of magic?
>Locations
To be strict, "Inside the Clouds" and "Bhava agra" (both are parts of the Heavens), and "Underworld" (Former Hell) all should be "Not in Gensokyo". At most, "Inside the Clouds" and upper levels of Underworld is debateable. Alright. Incidentally should I just rename the "Underworld" as "Former Hell"?
The color coding for location types probably can be more distinctive. What do you mean? What's more distinctive then red green and blue?
>"Exact Location Unknown" tag
This... creates additional trouble. Anyway, Suika really needs it (as one of the most powerful characters who can also turn into mist, she can be anywhere she wants), while Letty doesn't need it more than Lily White does. The thought process behind it was for people like Segia, who don't really have a set home, or at least none that we know about. I gave it to Rumia because I think it applies. Letty and Lily got it because they're not around most of the time and when they are they operate in many places. I guess it also works for Suika and the fact that she lives all over the place. I won't give them to Myouren, Youki, and Bishamonten since their locations makes the tag redundant.
>Okuu
There's a small mistranslation on the current wiki SoPM Utsuho entry (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Utsuho_Reiuji). The Yatagarasu in Okuu is a 分霊, a partition of Yatagarasu ("gods can be infinitely divided"), not the whole god. And yeah, even the part in Okuu is still quite alive. That's why the vessel must have a simple mind, to avoid conflict with the god. So Okuu has definitely not absorbed Yatagarasu. Well, it's not like it can just up an leave (can it?)
It's better to add Yatagarasu. My suggestion: Okuu is its "vessel", and Kanako's line points to the "vessel" node: she "arranged" it, something like that. Alright, luckily there's room in the underworld for a change like this.
>Miko
First of all, Miko is divine, because she's a historical figure who was worshipped as a god after her "death". Like, in real life, that actually happened?
The small divine spirits are human prayers and wishes, that is to say, raw faith itself. In theory, a god should give blessings in return of the faith, but Miko instead seems to prefer to take advantage of people by listening to their desires.
Yuyuko is a true glutton. She ate her snacks very fast in SSiB, and Sakuya joked about her gluttony in Soku.
Ran is a nine-tailed fox. The description should emphasize this before everything else. Why? It's a relationship chart so character descriptions should inform people on issues that would influence relationships. That's why I'm focusing on personality. In my reading of the wiki article I couldn't glean much so I left the note (little did I know this would the case with a lot of characters)
Unzan's title is "The Big Wheel That Guards and is Guarded", his "Guardian" status with Ichirin is mutual. There's no evidence that he was once human, and nyuudou don't have to be former humans, so he should be... "Unclassified"? SoPM says "Foreseeing Nyuudou are youkai that were originally monks who were unable to see anything but their own feet."
Some line clusters are too close, and should be more spread out, especially those above Luna and to the left of Sakuya. I'll see what I can do. The lines about Luna will probably stay that way but the ones beside Sakuya will improve.
SoPM says "Foreseeing Nyuudou are youkai that were originally monks who were unable to see anything but their own feet."That's an old mistranslation, already fixed on the wiki now (though the wording is awkward). My translation: "Mikoshi Nyuudou are [a type of] youkai monks. At first you can only see their feet."
Like, in real life, that actually happened?It has happened in real life. In general, theoretically every deceased person should be enshrined as a kami in Japan, not to mention Shoutoku, a great person in history. In particular, Shoutoku was believed by some to be an avatar of the bodhisattva Kannon, and Miko's spell cards and the aura behind her back are references to that.
Alright. Incidentally should I just rename the "Underworld" as "Former Hell"?According to SoPM, Yamame's SA Stage 1 is a cave at the foot of Youkai mountain, and Former Hell starts properly with Parsee and Stage 2.
Why? It's a relationship chart so character descriptions should inform people on issues that would influence relationships. That's why I'm focusing on personality. In my reading of the wiki article I couldn't glean much so I left the note (little did I know this would the case with a lot of characters)I see. If you want to focus on personality for the descriptions, we'll have to go over that for each character. Ran is said to have a mild personality that's not abrasive (profile); but when Yukari is absent, she took over the Netherworld garden for her own flower viewing feast, that's why Yuyuko asked the protagonists to punish her (PCB Extra story). When Yukari is present, she acts as if she can't think for herself.
That's an old mistranslation, already fixed on the wiki now (though the wording is awkward). My translation: "Mikoshi Nyuudou are [a type of] youkai monks. At first you can only see their feet."Unfortunate. For his species, I guess humanoid wouldn't be proper since he isn't that much of a human shape. So yeah, I guess unclassified.
According to SoPM, Yamame's SA Stage 1 is a cave at the foot of Youkai mountain, and Former Hell starts properly with Parsee and Stage 2.Alright. That may be a little hard to fit in but I'll probably figure it out.
I think: put Yamame and Kisume in a separate location, "Underground", which is "In Gensokyo", and the other characters in "Former Hell" which is "Not In Gensokyo", and make it clear that Parsee guards the bridge between the mortal world and Former Hell (source: her profile).
I see. If you want to focus on personality for the descriptions, we'll have to go over that for each character. Ran is said to have a mild personality that's not abrasive (profile); but when Yukari is absent, she took over the Netherworld garden for her own flower viewing feast, that's why Yuyuko asked the protagonists to punish her (PCB Extra story). When Yukari is present, she acts as if she can't think for herself.Well I'll work on it. In retrospect Ran isn't nearly as hard as some people that I've done since then.
...That's way too difficult. I think it's better to only focus on social positions. Ran is a powerful nine-tailed fox, that counts for a lot, for a youkai.
Aki sisters are better together. It's not like human village doesn't have red leaves in autumn.*shrug* Locations aren't exactly set in stone.
Yatagarasu of course should be in another Unknown box.Right
In case people didn't notice: there is a long descent between SA Stage 1 and 2 ("this is the 666th level underground").I did not
About the fact that Parsee is a goddess (her profile: "guardian god", current wiki translation is "guardian spirit"): looking up her species "hashihime", they definitely are a type of goddesses, and the hashihime well-known for the jealousy story is just one of them. Parsee should be divine, too.That's kinda coming out of nowhere. I'm gonna try to look into this a bit.
There's no reason Futo is not categorized a hermit. Shikasen is definitely a type of hermit.
I agree, those should be categorized as a hermit. But please note that Shikaisen are considered different from true hermits, even if they both count as hermits.A distinction like that may be beyond the scope of the chart.
Wait, why is Medicine listed as a ghost?I'm not sure if it's proper but I read that she is or at least is thought to be a spirit that inhabited a doll.
Also, maybe this is too recent but the latest chapter of Forbidden Scrollery has Kosuzu start to idolize Mamizou. While this may be a one-off joke, I think it's pretty cute and funny and deserves to be on the chart.
>ParseeMaybe that's why she's got such a bad attitude.
Probably that's the point: she should be a goddess, but no one remembers that.
Haven't had time to look at it, but I forgot to mention: at least the Prismriver sisters can benefit a lot from having emotes. It's true that not all characters have as strong an association with particular expressions, so an argument can also be made for not giving any character emotes...I don't want to hold up the process with this emotes thing, so I'll probably drop it for now, and maybe add in the future. Incidentally, the plan is that there will be another big push for new versions once 14 and 13.5 come out, and are suitably digested. What should their emotions be?
EDIT:
Should Yuugi be friends with Marisa? Marisa would visit Former Hell and drink with her from time to time after the events of SA.
Of possible note is that Kosuzu doesn't know Mamizou's a tanuki. From Kosuzu's point of view, Mamizou is this awesome and wise human being that taught Misozu about how to "properly" use the Night Parade Scroll and is able to command tsukuyomis to do her bidding. Likely Kosuzu herself hopes to one day be a Youkaimon master (gotta catch them all!), judging by what she's doing with the books, and thus idealizes Mamizou in that regards.I meant to add a note that Kosuzu doesn't know much/anything about Mamizou, thanks for the reminder.
I guess this can possibly be contrasted to Kyouko and other Myouren youkai, who instead see Mamizou as a wise but also bad ass youkai boss who could be their "trump card" against Miko (and, presumably, humans). Which of course if my interpretation is correct, would mean Kosuzu is hilariously looking up to Mamizou for the opposite reasons (a human that can control youkai) than the youkai do (a youkai that can keep humans in line)
Hey, it's already a running gag that people look up to Byakuren for the wrong reasons, why not the rest of her group? :VI gathered this. Note that although everyone who is a part of the Myouren Temple should be worshiping Bishamonten, only Byakuren actually does and everyone else is a disciple of hers. You could argue that makes them worshipers of his by extension but it isn't explicitly stated for a reason.
Shouldn't The Giant Catfish be classified as Fauna instead of Humanoid? :3Did that.
With descriptions being added, there's a lot to comment on. I've been very busy recently, so my feedback may come later.I see. I would be greatly appreciated.
Is Iku really a servant of the Hinanawi family? I got the impression she was just like, a neighbor. She's familiar with them, but not directly involved, and Tenshi doesn't even seem to know who she is before SWR. Of course, her "rank" is lower so she'd naturally be respectful of a full celestial, but is there anything to indicate that she's actually a servant? Unfortunately she was skipped in SoPM so there isn't much detail about her.According to Iku's relationship with Tenshi on the Touhou wiki, "As part of her duties, Iku files reports to the Hinanawi clan whenever an earthquake is about to occur.".
Oh, and you should probably point out that there's some sort of deal between Kanako and Tenma that lets them stay on the mountain in Tengu territory. I'd call it a "Business partnership" but that's just me.Is that true? It sounds right but I wasn't aware there were any formal dealings between the Tengu and the Moriya shrine. The two just sort of got used to each other.
edit: Also, Reimu and Marisa are yellow, which doesn't correspond to any color on the key. Since they're human, they should be dark blue.My mistake. Thanks for pointing that out.
According to Iku's relationship with Tenshi on the Touhou wiki, "As part of her duties, Iku files reports to the Hinanawi clan whenever an earthquake is about to occur.".Well, close enough I guess. Not a huge deal.
Is that true? It sounds right but I wasn't aware there were any formal dealings between the Tengu and the Moriya shrine. The two just sort of got used to each other.
After that, the chief of the tengu, Lord Tenma, entered into secret negotiations with the mountain god.
The details of their discussions were not made public, but it was made known that they had agreed to share the mountain with each other and pursue friendly relations.
According to Iku's relationship with Tenshi on the Touhou wiki, "As part of her duties, Iku files reports to the Hinanawi clan whenever an earthquake is about to occur."Someone please look up an actual SWR quote on that. And even if true, it may not mean Iku is a servant of the Hinanawi clan, only her job involves dealing with them.
Aya's MoF profile says:Right, I can probably fit that in.
So they have a deal of some sort, but we don't know the details. Kanako's newspaper article in SoPM also shows them having a conflict over the specific rights the Tengu are granting to the shrine (specifically, an easement to create a path through tengu territory letting people visit the shrine; reminds me of Property Law).
Edit: Sorry to keep constantly pointing out new things, but there's also a "Former Student" floating underneath Seiga that doesn't point to anything, probably left over from an earlier version. I suppose you should delete it?You suppose correctly. Also constantly pointing out things is appreciated, I'd work on my own if I didn't want that.
I have a question about the nameless kappa in your chart: are they all based on actual characters from the manga? I don't think a typical kappa should have long and wavy hair. I do seem to recall seeing a kappa who wears glasses. They are much more likely to have boyish short and straight hair.There were some kappa in WaHH chapter 12. I think I added the long hair for the sake of variety. I do like her the least though.
Far as I can tell, she isn't subordinate to the Nai clain. She's subordinate to the Dragon's palace. So yea, it's just that her job involves dealing with them, not working FOR them. In the end, Iku is unable to punish Tenshi because Tenshi lies outside of Iku's authority (probably like how a member of the navy can't punish a member of the army because it's two different chains of command), not because Tenshi is Iku's superior.I wasn't thinking about this much at the time. I merely wanted to convey that she reports to the Hinanawi family, but you're right, she isn't described as a servant of the household, or even necessarily works for them and i was only doing that because I couldn't think of anything else to write about her. Thanks.
Edit: Another little input-> seems that the hostility between Yuyuko and Suika has been overlooked.It's mentioned on both their wiki pages and is backed up by their interactions during IAMP(story and vs) and SWR/HST(vs). SuikaOn top of that Yuyuko utterly ignores Suika at the "Feast chapter" ,the end of Silent Sinner, by forgotting to even mention her; Yukari likely goes along with this 'cause she knows there's bad blood,jump to read my quote, between them.
I re-quote myself :On top of that Yuyuko utterly ignores Suika at the "Feast chapter" ,the end of Silent Sinner, by forgotting to even mention her; Yukari likely goes along with this 'cause she knows there's bad blood,jump to read my quote, between them.Sorry, that appears to me to be blown way out of proportion. The Sakuya-Alice enmity has more concrete proof (and even that one, IMO is too subtle as to be out of the scope of such a chart).
A separate general advice would be to keep on adding more ,"respect","avoid",etc. squares and to include a "like"one opposed to "dislike" but there's time for those.
Should there be an arrowhead pointing to Akyuu from "Subordinate"?Yup, thanks.
Re: kappa: I actually like that kappa, but I think you should base the kappa charcters on characters who actually appeared in WAHH.I might get her some shorter hair. You're right, long hair seems impractical for an amphibious species.
On a more general note, I think the arrows are really unintuitive for verbs. For relationships like "student" or "master" they make sense because it's like "my master is over at the end of this arrow", but for verbs like "worships" or "idolizes" or "visits" it seems completely backwards. I really can't wrap my head around how the beginning of the arrow is the "B" in "A worships B". Is that just me?Its not just you, its been bothering me since the beginning. According to the key, all relationships should be singular nouns. To that end I've already noted that "sisters" and "friends" should be "sister" and "friend". However, I feel I will have to break that rule in a few places. The relationship between Suika and Kasen, is "avoids" but I can't really think of a singular noun to put there. Changing "worships" to "worshiper" is pretty easy so I can do that.
My own personal belief is that Yuyuko knows Suika from the past (They're both old friends of Yukari and old big-name youkai in general. The chances of them not knowing each other is pretty slim) and the dialogue in IaMP was them not being very happy at seeing each other (but covering it up badly in snarky metaphors). However, there's nothing to actually PROVE that, and the fact that some of those metaphors get really confusing (at least, far as I can tell from the translation and my extremely limited understanding of Japanese culture) doesn't really help matters.The chart is trying to stay as canon as possible and sometimes that means having to ignore some common sense. For example, that they are both old friends of Yukari, and big-name youkai does seem like reasonable grounds for them to know each other and have a relationship. However, all the members of the SDM live in the same house, and yet relationships are surprisingly sparse.
I just noticed that I forgot Kasen's last name.
Huh. So you did. Are you gonna use Ibara or Ibaraki? Because Ibara is kind of a nickname, but that's how she introduces herself.I'll probably use Ibaraki. Also I'll probably change... that person's name to Eiki Shiki. I just got that from LP's chart.
On the topic of names though: Shikeiki. Um... that's really a pet peeve of mine, but even the wiki has embraced changing it to Eiki Shiki. It's kind of confusing because she ends up with 3 names, but Yamaxanadu is more of a title. And Reisen gets 3 names anyway, so who cares?
You've still got an "avoids" pointing at Kasen. It seems you were trying to change the rest into nouns, so I guess you missed that. Not entirely sure how to put that as a noun though.Like I said, I couldn't noun it.
"Allie" is not a word. The singular of "Allies" is "Ally".lol, right.
Still no line between Tenma and Kanako, but maybe not important.Yeah, things were kinda hectic last night and I didn't feel like adding it. Maybe it will still make it in but honestly, that one would probably get an explanation and just the relationship might be a little unhelpful.
Toyohime's son is Yorihime's husband, but that may also be unimportant.First off, whaaa? Second, yeah I'm gonna call that unimportant for this version.
Eirin in CiLR Ch.1 (literal translation): "to put it in human terms, from my perspective, one of them is wife of my grandnephew, the other is wife of son of my grandnephew husband and wife".You've given us a rather awkward sentence. The grammatical incorrectness makes me wonder what the sentence is actually saying. In regard to the relations of people, you're saying that when she mentions the wife of the grandnephew in the second part of the sentence (it also mentions the husband of the grandnephew so polygamy I guess), you think that's Toyohime? If she was already describing her relation to both of them, why would she mention her so i directly, why allow for the ambiguity at all?
Technically you can say there's room for ambiguity, Eirin can have many grandnephews etc. But there's not much to be gained in assuming their relationship isn't like the gods they are based on, when it is described to resemble that using such specific terms.
You've given us a rather awkward sentence. The grammatical incorrectness makes me wonder what the sentence is actually saying. In regard to the relations of people, you're saying that when she mentions the wife of the grandnephew in the second part of the sentence (it also mentions the husband of the grandnephew so polygamy I guess), you think that's Toyohime? If she was already describing her relation to both of them, why would she mention her so i directly, why allow for the ambiguity at all?
Also it's not a matter of gaining anything by assuming the relationships are different then their counter parts, it's just to be correct about these things.
It's tempting to add something about this stuff since it fits right into the purpose of the chart but it does seem unnecessarily specific. Maybe they all just need a relationship called "Family Lunacy". I don't suppose there's any genealogy on Kaguya is there?
You've given us a rather awkward sentence. The grammatical incorrectness makes me wonder what the sentence is actually saying.It's not grammatically incorrect, only not something a native speaker will ever say. I was trying to be as literal as possible, so as to avoid adding info not present in the original text. A comparatively more natural expression would be "one is married to my grandnephew, the other is married to son of my grandnephew family". The deal with "husband and wife" is that it's just one word 夫婦 in Japanese, and used a lot more often than in English. In English we would just say "my grandnephew family".
If she was already describing her relation to both of them, why would she mention her so i directly, why allow for the ambiguity at all?Because this sentence has an acceptable level of clarity in Japanese, and ZUN always writes with as much ambiguity as possible. However, as I said, this sentence is only meaningful if it is a reference to the background mythology; it would be strange to present so specific a detail that don't serve any clear purpose.
I hadn't realized this until now but it seems that Reimu is in general stronger then Marisa and Marisa sees beating Reimu as a personal goal. How long has this been a thing? I only recently noticed it, although I don't know where.Accorting to TvTropes, Marisa has always considered herself to be the second-best person in Gensokyo next to Reimu (which she finds pride in, and for good reason when you consider how much Reimu has achieved). I cannot find anything to really prove it in games or printed works, so don't think this is straight out true, but the information in TvTropes is fairly relieable in my opinion.
Miko created the masks that eventually became Kokoro, so I guess you could put their relationship as "Miko -> Unintentional creator -> Kokoro" "Kokoro -> Unintentional creation -> Miko", since I don't think Miko actually wanted to make a youkai.Also, accorting to Mamizou's story, Miko later made a new Mask of Hope to Kokoro (though she declines using it due of it being too perfect, which would take away the individuality she has and turn her back to being just ordinary masks)
Accorting to TvTropes, Marisa has always considered herself to be the second-best person in Gensokyo next to Reimu (which she finds pride in, and for good reason when you consider how much Reimu has achieved). I cannot find anything to really prove it in games or printed works, so don't think this is straight out true, but the information in TvTropes is fairly relieable in my opinion.Well, they seem pretty rival-ish here (http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hopeless_Masquerade/Story/Reimu%27s_Scenario).
Kagerou mentions that she accidentaly tried to eat Wakasagihime once. Dunno if that's really relevant to put in the chart, though.Its actually really tempting. I wish there were more A-[tried to eat]->B relationships in gensokyo besides this and Yuyuko Mystia.
Also, accorting to Mamizou's story, Miko later made a new Mask of Hope to Kokoro (though she declines using it due of it being too perfect, which would take away the individuality she has and turn her back to being just ordinary masks)Yeah, you can see it in Miko's ending.
Miko is Kokoro's mommy? :oYeeeeeeeeeep
Its actually really tempting. I wish there were more A-[tried to eat]->B relationships in gensokyo besides this and Yuyuko Mystia.There's also Reimu/Minoriko except Reimu didn't actually try to eat Minoriko.
I hadn't realized this until now but it seems that Reimu is in general stronger then Marisa and Marisa sees beating Reimu as a personal goal. How long has this been a thing? I only recently noticed it, although I don't know where.
Yeah, you can see it in Miko's ending.
The mask looks like Miko's face.
You think it is worth putting up that Koishi has the Mask of Hope? Because it is sort of part of Kokoro and something she wanted to get back (though in Kokoro's story, she lets Koishi keep the old Mask of Hope as she didn't need it anymore).I would think it's appropriate. "Took her mask of hope" or whatever.
There's also Reimu/Minoriko except Reimu didn't actually try to eat Minoriko.To some extent there's also Reimu & Marisa + Tokiko.
Don't forget the Youkai Grassroot Network which Wakasagi and Kagerou seem to be involved in.